Guild Wars 2

Why don’t you complain about thieves being weak in some of the other 1028743847 topics in this forum instead of creating a new one?

Plus I don’t buy it. You must either a) run with some ishtty thieves or b) BE a ishtty thief. The people I run with seem to appreciate my thief’s skills. 12k backstabs single target and 25k AE damage per clusterbomb + blast finishers ever 2-3 seconds in group fights…… What do you call that?

Oh, I call it keeping up 20+ stacks of might on the group when teaming up with a guardian or ele.

We’re fine PvE.

How did I miss your huge QQ thread posted a day and a half ago? And yet you still feel the need to start a new topic on it?

FOR SHAME!

Kincaidia.3192:

Plus I don’t buy it. You must either a) run with some ishtty thieves or b) BE a ishtty thief. The people I run with seem to appreciate my thief’s skills. 12k backstabs single target and 25k AE damage per clusterbomb + blast finishers ever 2-3 seconds in group fights…… What do you call that?

Oh, I call it keeping up 20+ stacks of might on the group when teaming up with a guardian or ele.

We’re fine PvE.

if ur hitting 12 backstabs you will die fast. id own you in wvw and even more so in pvp with that build. guardians give might better and usually running with several so your might isnt needed. plus they heal better and protect dmg better so you are just trying to tag along on their coattails. thieves really have no place in the game other than roaming and now it keeps getting the nerf bat so be realistic. im on dragonbrand if u wanna challenge with you 12k burst build!

Travlane.5948:

if ur hitting 12 backstabs you will die fast. id own you in wvw and even more so in pvp with that build. guardians give might better and usually running with several so your might isnt needed. plus they heal better and protect dmg better so you are just trying to tag along on their coattails. thieves really have no place in the game other than roaming and now it keeps getting the nerf bat so be realistic. im on dragonbrand if u wanna challenge with you 12k burst build!

Can you please tell me how can a guardian better stacks might compared to thief’s combo finishing into fire fields?

sorrow.2364:

Can you please tell me how can a guardian better stacks might compared to thief’s combo finishing into fire fields?

Greatsword 3rd Auto-attack: Just for attacking something you and all nearby allies will have a constant 5 stacks
Staff #4: Channelled heal gives 12 stacks
Trait: Empowering Might – Base 5 seconds of Might whenever you crit
Fields: Hallowed Ground and Purging Flames + Blast Finisher (say… Hammer 2) – Area Might

Please tell me, what fire fields does Thief have access to?

Thiefs where always lack in boons reason i run lyssa. The only ting thief bring tot he table is stealth and maybe venoms but traiting that deep in it is less damage the cd is also pretty long.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

if ur hitting 12 backstabs you will die fast. id own you in wvw and even more so in pvp with that build. guardians give might better and usually running with several so your might isnt needed. plus they heal better and protect dmg better so you are just trying to tag along on their coattails. thieves really have no place in the game other than roaming and now it keeps getting the nerf bat so be realistic. im on dragonbrand if u wanna challenge with you 12k burst build!

Can you please tell me how can a guardian better stacks might compared to thief’s combo finishing into fire fields?

ok so 1 guardian gives out 12 stacks for 5 people for 15-20 seconds regardless if they are next to them or not…..regardless if they are in battle or out….and ,,,are yiou ready???? this is the best part of it all…they do it BY THEMSELVES without require another class to set it up for you and overlap other fields that are important. its like you have to take a time out or have 15 seconds to see the enemy coming. 3 guardians do the same amount of might in 25% of the time. Thief is pre battle buff only and slower stacking them which means less time. thief is good but i wouldnt bring thieves in a 50 v 50 fight just for those reasons when they can be done easier/better by other proffessions. not putting down thief just saying hes just an extra class that does work from what others do better. in a zerg run venom or reroll. simple. :P

I agree and I think all thieves should reroll norn guardian with big swords.

Bigglesworth.8249:

Greatsword 3rd Auto-attack: Just for attacking something you and all nearby allies will have a constant 5 stacks
Staff #4: Channelled heal gives 12 stacks
Trait: Empowering Might – Base 5 seconds of Might whenever you crit
Fields: Hallowed Ground and Purging Flames + Blast Finisher (say… Hammer 2) – Area Might

Please tell me, what fire fields does Thief have access to?

1. Greatsword applies might only to you. It isn’t an AoE might as far I know.
2. Those might stacks lasts for about 10 seconds. AoE blast finishing lasts 15 seconds and are 3 stacks per blast.
3. 1 stack of might for 5 seconds each time you critically hit. Yeah, really worthy.
4. Is the Hammer 2 on 3 initative?

Do you know what cross professions combo mean? Are we talking about team settings or solo environments? Because if we are talking about solo environment, thief still wins (Hidden Assassin, Power of Inertia, Signets of Power, Venomous Strength).

It looks like that for you 4 consecutive blast finishers in a fire field (12 stacks of might for 15 seconds each) are worse than 1 stack of might for 5 seconds for each critical hit and 12 stack of might for 10 seconds channeled while not moving for 2+ seconds.

And you don’t even need to spend any traitpoint or utility slot to do so!

sorrow.2364:

Do you know what cross professions combo mean? Are we talking about team settings or solo environments? Because if we are talking about solo environment, thief still wins (Hidden Assassin, Power of Inertia, Signets of Power, Venomous Strength).

It looks like that for you 4 consecutive blast finishers in a fire field (12 stacks of might for 15 seconds each) are worse than 1 stack of might for 5 seconds for each critical hit and 12 stack of might for 10 seconds channeled while not moving for 2+ seconds.

And you don’t even need to spend any traitpoint or utility slot to do so!

No, you just have to depend on someone else laying down a field for you! Meaning that other person is the one providing group support, not the thief. I’m pretty sure every profession has access to a blast finisher, meaning the Thief is not necessary anywhere in that equation. And I know for a fact people would much rather have a Guardian than a Thief in a group for pretty much anything. So I’ll ask again: Where’s our fire field? Or even water? Light?

The Thief profession has abysmal group support, full stop. You will not succeed in convincing anyone who has played the profession otherwise (It’s like we’re 2/3s of a complete class. Damage / Survivability / ?? Support ??).

edit:

I agree and I think all thieves should reroll norn guardian with big swords.

Haha, I actually did roll up a Norn Guardian with a big sword, which I now use any time I’m doing something group-related. Still play my Thief in WvW, though.

Bigglesworth.8249:

No, you just have to depend on someone else laying down a field for you! Meaning that other person is the one providing group support, not the thief. I’m pretty sure every profession has access to a blast finisher, meaning the Thief is not necessary anywhere in that equation. And I know for a fact people would much rather have a Guardian than a Thief in a group for pretty much anything. So I’ll ask again: Where’s our fire field? Or even water? Light?

The Thief profession has abysmal group support, full stop. You will not succeed in convincing anyone who has played the profession otherwise (It’s like we’re 2/3s of a complete class. Damage / Survivability / ?? Support ??).

Thieves have an huge amount of finishers compared to other professions.
A field isn’t enough if you don’t have finishers to take advantage from.
Take elementalists, for instance. They have an huge amount of fields, while not so many combo finishers. Same applies to Necromancers. They have a low amount of unreliable finishers while they have a lot of fields.

They just have a different roles in support. An Elementalist alone isn’t capable to stack 12 might on your team. They need a thief to blast finishing into his fire fields. Both combined are way stronger than a single guardian stacking a poor amount of mights alone.
That’s the whole point of cross-profession combos.

sorrow.2364:

Bigglesworth.8249:

No, you just have to depend on someone else laying down a field for you! Meaning that other person is the one providing group support, not the thief. I’m pretty sure every profession has access to a blast finisher, meaning the Thief is not necessary anywhere in that equation. And I know for a fact people would much rather have a Guardian than a Thief in a group for pretty much anything. So I’ll ask again: Where’s our fire field? Or even water? Light?

The Thief profession has abysmal group support, full stop. You will not succeed in convincing anyone who has played the profession otherwise (It’s like we’re 2/3s of a complete class. Damage / Survivability / ?? Support ??).

Thieves have an huge amount of finishers compared to other professions.
A field isn’t enough if you don’t have finishers to take advantage from.
Take elementalists, for instance. They have an huge amount of fields, while not so many combo finishers. Same applies to Necromancers. They have a low amount of unreliable finishers while they have a lot of fields.

They just have a different roles in support. An Elementalist alone isn’t capable to stack 12 might on your team. They need a thief to blast finishing into his fire fields. Both combined are way stronger than a single guardian stacking a poor amount of mights alone.
That’s the whole point of cross-profession combos.

S/D Ele:
Ring of fire → Dragons Tooth + Phoenix → Earth → Earthquake + Arcane Wave
There you go, easily obtainable 12 aoe might stacks for the team, which is what every good ele does on a rotation.

sorrow.2364:

An Elementalist alone isn’t capable to stack 12 might on your team.

Actually that’s simply not true. Sorry to jump in here – I was just browsing the thief forums for some giggles – but I play a support Elly in PvE. With 30 points in the Arcane Tree, Runes of Water x 2, Runes of Monk x 2, Runes of Strength x 2 + Boon Duration food an Elementalist can keep a stack of 25 might on a team Solo… With the latest patch if we trait for it we can give the team perminant might and fury. And I can do that with two different weapon set combinations (haven’t tested others)…

Argue all you want about Guardians vs Thieves, but you’re wrong about the elementalist :p

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

S/D Ele:
Ring of fire -> Dragons Tooth + Phoenix -> Earth -> Earthquake + Arcane Wave
There you go, easily obtainable 12 aoe might stacks for the team, which is what every good ele does on a rotation.

Those ability have a cooldown.
Earthquake and Arcane Wave, also, have a pretty high cooldown.
I know that S/D Ele has a quite high amount of finishers, but it is still inferior to Cluster Bomb on 3 initiative.

Towren.1745:

Actually that’s simply not true. Sorry to jump in here – I was just browsing the thief forums for some giggles – but I play a support Elly in PvE. With 30 points in the Arcane Tree, Runes of Water x 2, Runes of Monk x 2, Runes of Strength x 2 + Boon Duration food an Elementalist can keep a stack of 25 might on a team Solo… With the latest patch if we trait for it we can give the team perminant might and fury. And I can do that with two different weapon set combinations (haven’t tested others)…

Argue all you want about Guardians vs Thieves, but you’re wrong about the elementalist :p

That is a fringe case.
If you build completely to stack might on your team, of course you’re better at it compared to a Thief with no specific build.
That doesn’t invalidate my point.

Towren.1745:

sorrow.2364:

An Elementalist alone isn’t capable to stack 12 might on your team.

Actually that’s simply not true. Sorry to jump in here – I was just browsing the thief forums for some giggles – but I play a support Elly in PvE. With 30 points in the Arcane Tree, Runes of Water x 2, Runes of Monk x 2, Runes of Strength x 2 + Boon Duration food an Elementalist can keep a stack of 25 might on a team Solo… With the latest patch if we trait for it we can give the team perminant might and fury. And I can do that with two different weapon set combinations (haven’t tested others)…

Argue all you want about Guardians vs Thieves, but you’re wrong about the elementalist :p

Thanks for the enlightenment, I roam with an Ele in WvW that has a similar build, and I do love all the might I get!

Mandatory: Ele OP nerf pls!11

sorrow.2364:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

S/D Ele:
Ring of fire -> Dragons Tooth + Phoenix -> Earth -> Earthquake + Arcane Wave
There you go, easily obtainable 12 aoe might stacks for the team, which is what every good ele does on a rotation.

Those ability have a cooldown.
Earthquake and Arcane Wave, also, have a pretty high cooldown.
I know that S/D Ele has a quite high amount of finishers, but it is still inferior to Cluster Bomb on 3 initiative.

Towren.1745:

Actually that’s simply not true. Sorry to jump in here – I was just browsing the thief forums for some giggles – but I play a support Elly in PvE. With 30 points in the Arcane Tree, Runes of Water x 2, Runes of Monk x 2, Runes of Strength x 2 + Boon Duration food an Elementalist can keep a stack of 25 might on a team Solo… With the latest patch if we trait for it we can give the team perminant might and fury. And I can do that with two different weapon set combinations (haven’t tested others)…

Argue all you want about Guardians vs Thieves, but you’re wrong about the elementalist :p

That is a fringe case.
If you build completely to stack might on your team, of course you’re better at it compared to a Thief with no specific build.
That doesn’t invalidate my point.

Anything is better than a shortbow thief now. If you like to be an useless clusterbomb-bot for ur team while doing nothing in the teamfights go ahead

sorrow.2364:

That doesn’t invalidate my point.

Actually it does. If you read the train of conversation you eventually come to the conclusion that you are of the opinion that an Elementalist and a thief working together are stronger than either single profession on their own when it comes to helping a team, the example you give is might stacking vs a Guardian.

The counter opinion to yours (not said by myself) is that a thief is just an extra class which isn’t needed, they can do certain things yes, but other professions can do whatever a thief does, and better.

My point specifically targets your elementalist thief example, and sides with the opinion that is counter to yours. An elementalist certainly does not need a thief to might stack, not at all, and is not made stronger by the addition of a thief cluster bombing in the party. Only the thief needs the elementalist, which again, was a point made by someone else to yourself earlier in this thread.

I go even further to bolster how much an elementalist doesn’t need a thief by including an alternative trait set up which could grant fury as well as might, certainly something a thief couldn’t do, and again, something the elementalist can do all on their own. And I go further to point out that the Elementalist can do this with more than one weapon set, again an advantage over a thief. So I wouldn’t say this is a “fringe” example either, especially if we degrade the amount of might stacks to the example you give (12). An Elementalist has 3 different weapon sets which could give a stack of 12 might, even without gear and trait set ups I described.

It just so happens I took it further to a 25 might stack and told you how we do it, but if you want to keep it at 12 and open up the Elly options I can give several examples of how an Elementalist will out perform a thief in a 1 on 1 contest, and could talk for paragraphs about how an Elementalist doesn’t need a Thief.

As the conversation stands at this point, for your point to be valid you would have to give an example of something a thief brings that is unique, or equally as powerful as another profession combination, otherwise the counter opinion to yourself currently has the example evidence on their side.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Anything is better than a shortbow thief now. If you like to be an useless clusterbomb-bot for ur team while doing nothing in the teamfights go ahead

Shortbow got only a 300 range nerf to Cluster Bomb.
I guess that, to you, shortbow was useful only because you were capable to hit people on the walls in WvWvW.

Towren.1745:

CUT

Thief is capable to blast finishing in any combo field on the environment.
So, with just the use of Cluster Bomb, which is cheap on initative, you can potentially give AoE Might, Frost Armor, Retaliation, Swiftness, Weakness, Stealth, Healing, Chaos Armor and Blind, combining it with any of the combo fields your teammates are using, regardless of their builds. Only thief is capable to exploit combo fields that much.

If you also spec into support (Venom Share, which is actually the only viable support build), you still have those support capabilies coming from the no-cooldown Blast Finisher, plus all the support from Venom Sharing (AoE might, Life steal and conditions).

So, yes, a Thief needs another profession to be used to its full potential, but aren’t you playing anyway with another profession?
Your Ele teammate is using its fire fields anyway, regardless if he’s built around might stacking or damage.
Your Ranger buddy is using its healing spring anyway.
Combo finishing effects scales according to the finisher’s stat, that means that your teammates doesn’t need to build around support for you to be effective.

It is a different way to support your team, but it’s not less effective.

Anyone with a blast finisher can give AoE Might, Frost Armor, Retaliation, Swiftness, Weakness, Stealth, Healing, Chaos Armor and Blind, combining it with any of the combo fields of a team mate. So that’s not unique to thieves. Your argument currently seems to be going along the lines that a thief has easier access to blast finishers, which I will agree with, in theory it does.

But I don’t think it translates to practice. Combo fields have durations, and durations have to be worked with the cooldowns of blast finishers. You’re absolutely correct in the fact a thief could stand there and cluster bomb a Guardians fire field over and over for might stacking with a cross profession combo. But an elementalist could easily do blast finishers in their own field without the need for a cross profession combo resulting in the same (if not better) effect (depending on weapon set) due to initiative regen options. A thief would absolutely have access to their cluster bomb faster than the elementalist would have access to their own blast finishers again (every 12 seconds ish for an elly is the very minimum they could do with evasive arcana in earth), but a thief has no combo fields to work with after that, because he needs the Guardian…. An elly does not.

A staff elly using lava font and evasive arcane for pure might blast finishers (let alone eruption/utility skills) can easily stack might on a team without the need for cross profession. Comparative a thief needs the cross profession to be effective.

At the same time a thief chooses to blast a different field for different effect (swiftness) an elly could do the same in either their own field, or an allies.

Annnnnd a thief who uses all their initiative on cluster bombing has no initiative for anything else, comparatively an elly is not limited by this fact.

It all goes down to the easier access of blast finishers of thieves.

Elementalists can’t blast finish as much as thieves does. They can mantain 25 stacks of might on the team only if they invest everything into boon duration and use all of their blast finishers into their fire fields.

If we compare Thief to Elementalist without any boon duration bonus, Thief is more effective at stacking might and blast finisher bonuses.

The point I’m trying to make is that we’re talking about team environments. In team environments, you’re playing with other professions who are using their combo fields ready to be finished.
If we were talking about solo stacking AoE might, then yes, Elementalist is way better. But why on the earth do you want to AoE stack might alone?

A thief which is using all of its initiative on Cluster Bombing is still using its best AoE damaging skill. Damage and team support. Why do you need any other initiative?