Guild Wars 2

Seriously… the latest patch has now also added an extra detail to when ever it mentions health threshold.

Now you lazy people can see when last refuge will trigger so start playing while remembering this knowledge.

Last refuge has saved me multiple times from burst before as that cloak and blind it gives allows me that split reaction time i need to gtfo. Now stop sucking and start learning.

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I potentially take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

Perhaps you should learn the very basics of “Risk Vs Reward” and “Passive Vs Active Play” before encouraging us to learn how to play the game.

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

So im presuming that you are one of the minority who complain about last refuge because you cant play with the mechanic which doesnt force you you stop attacking.

So lets be realistic about this. If you are dying because of a simple minor trait which actually has more defensive value (in my opinion) than anything then i can only judge you for being poor at thief (That is to say if you take the easy 6 points shadow arts route for a cheesy D/P build). If you got burst down, you would have died regardless. If your health DID reach 25% health and you still died in stealth, you died regardless. If you DIDN’T die, got away, and reset…. then you played smart. You cannot force a change of mechanic because you fail to utilize it correctly.

Ill take that free blinding powder 4 sec stealth and 6 sec blind for free, any day.

Cronicle.5691:

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

So im presuming that you are one of the minority who complain about last refuge because you cant play with the mechanic which doesnt force you you stop attacking.

So lets be realistic about this. If you are dying because of a simple minor trait which actually has more defensive value (in my opinion) than anything then i can only judge you for being poor at thief (That is to say if you take the easy 6 points shadow arts route for a cheesy D/P build). If you got burst down, you would have died regardless. If your health DID reach 25% health and you still died in stealth, you died regardless. If you DIDN’T die, got away, and reset…. then you played smart. You cannot force a change of mechanic because you fail to utilize it correctly.

Ill take that free blinding powder 4 sec stealth and 6 sec blind for free, any day.

I agree with you, but it’s more complicated than that. The main issue is that we don’t have a choice to either take it or not. For those who knows how to take advantage of the trait, it’s a boon to their build. However for the rest of us who don’t want to deal with it should have an option not to take it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cronicle.5691:

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

So im presuming that you are one of the minority who complain about last refuge because you cant play with the mechanic which doesnt force you you stop attacking.

So lets be realistic about this. If you are dying because of a simple minor trait which actually has more defensive value (in my opinion) than anything then i can only judge you for being poor at thief (That is to say if you take the easy 6 points shadow arts route for a cheesy D/P build). If you got burst down, you would have died regardless. If your health DID reach 25% health and you still died in stealth, you died regardless. If you DIDN’T die, got away, and reset…. then you played smart. You cannot force a change of mechanic because you fail to utilize it correctly.

Ill take that free blinding powder 4 sec stealth and 6 sec blind for free, any day.

I agree with you, but it’s more complicated than that. The main issue is that we don’t have a choice to either take it or not. For those who knows how to take advantage of the trait, it’s a boon to their build. However for the rest of us who don’t want to deal with it should have an option not to take it.

Vincent, you’re generally a person I can trust to have an honest conversation with lacking any condescension, so I’ll direct this at you.

Let’s ignore the fact that you feel that thieves should have the option not to take LR. That would be great, but that would leave LR poorly designed.

Players should be making the best choice for the situation at hand – sometimes that means going for the kill/interrupt while hovering dangerously close to LR trigger range. Why should thieves who choose to play aggressively be potentially afflicted with 4s of reveal from a trait that’s designed to be beneficial (and again, neutral at worst).

Why should a 1pt trait force anyone to change their playstyle or be potentially penalized?

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cronicle.5691:

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

So im presuming that you are one of the minority who complain about last refuge because you cant play with the mechanic which doesnt force you you stop attacking.

So lets be realistic about this. If you are dying because of a simple minor trait which actually has more defensive value (in my opinion) than anything then i can only judge you for being poor at thief (That is to say if you take the easy 6 points shadow arts route for a cheesy D/P build). If you got burst down, you would have died regardless. If your health DID reach 25% health and you still died in stealth, you died regardless. If you DIDN’T die, got away, and reset…. then you played smart. You cannot force a change of mechanic because you fail to utilize it correctly.

Ill take that free blinding powder 4 sec stealth and 6 sec blind for free, any day.

I agree with you, but it’s more complicated than that. The main issue is that we don’t have a choice to either take it or not. For those who knows how to take advantage of the trait, it’s a boon to their build. However for the rest of us who don’t want to deal with it should have an option not to take it.

Vincent, you’re generally a person I can trust to have an honest conversation with lacking any condescension, so I’ll direct this at you.

Let’s ignore the fact that you feel that thieves should have the option not to take LR. That would be great, but that would leave LR poorly designed.

Players should be making the best choice for the situation at hand – sometimes that means going for the kill/interrupt while hovering dangerously close to LR trigger range. Why should thieves who choose to play aggressively be potentially afflicted with 4s of reveal from a trait that’s designed to be beneficial (and again, neutral at worst).

Why should a 1pt trait force anyone to change their playstyle or be potentially penalized?

If you have that option to make that split decision whether you want to risk it or not while being excessively low to LR trigger then why the hell would you even want to take the risk that you know you cannot live through? With that low health to begin with you should regen/reset. If you die regardless your useless.

And yes i see the point that it is a bit more complicated as you say but i generally feel that those who complain about this minor trait which i do feel belongs there, have such a narrow view that you can only build thief to a specific meta which is why we have people complaining about various skills they don’t understand.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cronicle.5691:

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

So im presuming that you are one of the minority who complain about last refuge because you cant play with the mechanic which doesnt force you you stop attacking.

So lets be realistic about this. If you are dying because of a simple minor trait which actually has more defensive value (in my opinion) than anything then i can only judge you for being poor at thief (That is to say if you take the easy 6 points shadow arts route for a cheesy D/P build). If you got burst down, you would have died regardless. If your health DID reach 25% health and you still died in stealth, you died regardless. If you DIDN’T die, got away, and reset…. then you played smart. You cannot force a change of mechanic because you fail to utilize it correctly.

Ill take that free blinding powder 4 sec stealth and 6 sec blind for free, any day.

I agree with you, but it’s more complicated than that. The main issue is that we don’t have a choice to either take it or not. For those who knows how to take advantage of the trait, it’s a boon to their build. However for the rest of us who don’t want to deal with it should have an option not to take it.

Vincent, you’re generally a person I can trust to have an honest conversation with lacking any condescension, so I’ll direct this at you.

Let’s ignore the fact that you feel that thieves should have the option not to take LR. That would be great, but that would leave LR poorly designed.

Players should be making the best choice for the situation at hand – sometimes that means going for the kill/interrupt while hovering dangerously close to LR trigger range. Why should thieves who choose to play aggressively be potentially afflicted with 4s of reveal from a trait that’s designed to be beneficial (and again, neutral at worst).

Why should a 1pt trait force anyone to change their playstyle or be potentially penalized?

The thing about Last Refuge is that it gives a Thief a way to save themselves while running away — which is I believe is the intention of the trait.

And as you say, it doesn’t work well when the Thief is more riskier/aggressive, those who choose to stay in the offensive instead of going on defensive.

So we are facing two polar opposite playstyles and a trait that only apply to one style — so why not grant the Thief an option so that they can take it based on their playstyle?

There were numerous discussion about this and there were many valid suggestions, but depends on how much time ArenaNet wants to put into dealing with this trait, the easiest and the fastest way to fix this is to swap traits — just like what they did in the Acrobat line.

However the probability of that ever happening is so low given that only few Thieves ever spec for SA nowadays.

If they ever choose to swap, Cloaked in Shadow and Slowed Pulse are the best candidate IMO to swap with LR. Then if the player wants LR, they can spend 2pt into SA to get it.

And yes I agree, 1pt trait should not be a potential punishment.

Cronicle.5691:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cronicle.5691:

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

So im presuming that you are one of the minority who complain about last refuge because you cant play with the mechanic which doesnt force you you stop attacking.

So lets be realistic about this. If you are dying because of a simple minor trait which actually has more defensive value (in my opinion) than anything then i can only judge you for being poor at thief (That is to say if you take the easy 6 points shadow arts route for a cheesy D/P build). If you got burst down, you would have died regardless. If your health DID reach 25% health and you still died in stealth, you died regardless. If you DIDN’T die, got away, and reset…. then you played smart. You cannot force a change of mechanic because you fail to utilize it correctly.

Ill take that free blinding powder 4 sec stealth and 6 sec blind for free, any day.

I agree with you, but it’s more complicated than that. The main issue is that we don’t have a choice to either take it or not. For those who knows how to take advantage of the trait, it’s a boon to their build. However for the rest of us who don’t want to deal with it should have an option not to take it.

Vincent, you’re generally a person I can trust to have an honest conversation with lacking any condescension, so I’ll direct this at you.

Let’s ignore the fact that you feel that thieves should have the option not to take LR. That would be great, but that would leave LR poorly designed.

Players should be making the best choice for the situation at hand – sometimes that means going for the kill/interrupt while hovering dangerously close to LR trigger range. Why should thieves who choose to play aggressively be potentially afflicted with 4s of reveal from a trait that’s designed to be beneficial (and again, neutral at worst).

Why should a 1pt trait force anyone to change their playstyle or be potentially penalized?

If you have that option to make that split decision whether you want to risk it or not while being excessively low to LR trigger then why the hell would you even want to take the risk that you know you cannot live through? With that low health to begin with you should regen/reset. If you die regardless your useless.

Why do you feel it’s up to LR to decide when and how and when you disengage? Are you playing, or is your 1pt in SA playing? Who said anything about “Knowing I won’t live through” anything? Have you never won a fight at low health? Claiming that every single situation where LR might trigger is one which you should be running to regen/reset is silly – nothing is that black and white.

Being low on health is not a death sentence. Being low on health and getting a revealed for no reason isn’t a death sentence either, but it’s definitely an additional negative, and one that was given to you by a trait that was designed to be beneficial.

And yes i see the point that it is a bit more complicated as you say but i generally feel that those who complain about this minor trait which i do feel belongs there, have such a narrow view that you can only build thief to a specific meta which is why we have people complaining about various skills they don’t understand.

Most of us understand completely how LR works – we just won’t want a trait we can’t avoid taking making decisions for us. We are the players. The outcomes of our fights should be decided by what we choose to do – letting the existence of LR decide for you when it’s time to stop attacking or possibly take a revealed for no reason is very poor design. The fact that you let LR decide for you when you should disengage is silly.

evilapprentice.6379:

Vincent, you’re generally a person I can trust to have an honest conversation with lacking any condescension, so I’ll direct this at you.

Let’s ignore the fact that you feel that thieves should have the option not to take LR. That would be great, but that would leave LR poorly designed.

Players should be making the best choice for the situation at hand – sometimes that means going for the kill/interrupt while hovering dangerously close to LR trigger range. Why should thieves who choose to play aggressively be potentially afflicted with 4s of reveal from a trait that’s designed to be beneficial (and again, neutral at worst).

Why should a 1pt trait force anyone to change their playstyle or be potentially penalized?

I don’t think the trait itself merits changing but personally it always felt like something I would pick for an adept trait. I don’t dislike the trait by any means, it has saved me from time to time however it does feel awkward that it is a minor that we can’t choose not to have. I think it would be feasible to swap Last refuge and Cloaked in shadow. Everything after which are number changes however cloaked in shadow feels more like a minor than last refuge does.

Obviously that is just a suggestion, I still like Last Refuge as I tend to use stealths for condi clears alone anyways so when it triggers for me it is always a benefit. However I can understand why someone would get frustrated because of a unforeseen instance of damage dropping them into last refuge causing them to get revealed.

I believe minor traits, especially ones that early in the tree shouldn’t be things that could directly influence the course of a fight. Just personal opinion I guess.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cronicle.5691:

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh, good. I’ll remember to stop attacking when I hit around 35% of my health, so as to not get screwed by LR.

I’m sure glad there’s a 1pt minor trait that dictates when I can and can’t attack, lest I take a penalty from a trait that’s supposed to be beneficial (and at its worse, should be neutral).

The fact that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for thieves to be forced to play around an unavoidable trait (if they go SA) or else take a penalty calls into question your qualifications concerning making suggestions on how we should all “stop sucking and start learning”.

So im presuming that you are one of the minority who complain about last refuge because you cant play with the mechanic which doesnt force you you stop attacking.

So lets be realistic about this. If you are dying because of a simple minor trait which actually has more defensive value (in my opinion) than anything then i can only judge you for being poor at thief (That is to say if you take the easy 6 points shadow arts route for a cheesy D/P build). If you got burst down, you would have died regardless. If your health DID reach 25% health and you still died in stealth, you died regardless. If you DIDN’T die, got away, and reset…. then you played smart. You cannot force a change of mechanic because you fail to utilize it correctly.

Ill take that free blinding powder 4 sec stealth and 6 sec blind for free, any day.

I agree with you, but it’s more complicated than that. The main issue is that we don’t have a choice to either take it or not. For those who knows how to take advantage of the trait, it’s a boon to their build. However for the rest of us who don’t want to deal with it should have an option not to take it.

Vincent, you’re generally a person I can trust to have an honest conversation with lacking any condescension, so I’ll direct this at you.

Let’s ignore the fact that you feel that thieves should have the option not to take LR. That would be great, but that would leave LR poorly designed.

Players should be making the best choice for the situation at hand – sometimes that means going for the kill/interrupt while hovering dangerously close to LR trigger range. Why should thieves who choose to play aggressively be potentially afflicted with 4s of reveal from a trait that’s designed to be beneficial (and again, neutral at worst).

Why should a 1pt trait force anyone to change their playstyle or be potentially penalized?

The thing about Last Refuge is that it gives a Thief a way to save themselves while running away — which is I believe is the intention of the trait.

And as you say, it doesn’t work well when the Thief is more riskier/aggressive, those who choose to stay in the offensive instead of going on defensive.

So we are facing two polar opposite playstyles and a trait that only apply to one style — so why not grant the Thief an option so that they can take it based on their playstyle?

There were numerous discussion about this and there were many valid suggestions, but depends on how much time ArenaNet wants to put into dealing with this trait, the easiest and the fastest way to fix this is to swap traits — just like what they did in the Acrobat line.

However the probability of that ever happening is so low given that only few Thieves ever spec for SA nowadays.

If they ever choose to swap, Cloaked in Shadow and Slowed Pulse are the best candidate IMO to swap with LR. Then if the player wants LR, they can spend 2pt into SA to get it.

And yes I agree, 1pt trait should not be a potential punishment.

Fair enough.

I support changing LR to “Invisibility” (stealth without SA benefits or Stealth attacks, with no revealed for landing an attack while invisible). However, if we’re assuming that Anet will never put the time in to fixing LR, I agree it can be useful for running away, and swapping it to 2 point adept would be the best course of action.

Edit: Considering that 6/0/2/0/6 is a fairly popular meta choice at the moment, I do see some value from Anet’s side in swapping LR into the adept tier.

Im not letting LR dictate when i disengage. I’m letting my knowledge of my health pool that it WILL trigger if i hit 3,876 health which is practically 1 hit away, (1 critical auto attack) from killing you. IF you have condition on you, you are most likely going down. Yes i have won with a low health pool before, ive had close encounters. I have died to getting revealed to last refuge before. Nobody can play perfect and everybody makes mistakes eventually. But to put blame on an ability which is an Anti burst defence trait for 1 minor point that will give you free stealth and blind is a win.
Had last refuge triggered if you hit 90% health pool… then yes i dont see its purpose. But as it stands right now i see it being a more positive trait for its minor point than it being negative.

I agree with OP that we need to stop complaining about this ability.

But not why…

My reason why we need to stop complaining is:

evilapprentice.6379:

Fair enough.

I support changing LR to “Invisibility” (stealth without SA benefits or Stealth attacks, with no revealed for landing an attack while invisible). However, if we’re assuming that Anet will never put the time in to fixing LR, I agree it can be useful for running away, and swapping it to 2 point adept would be the best course of action.

Edit: Considering that 6/0/2/0/6 is a fairly popular meta choice at the moment, I do see some value from Anet’s side in swapping LR into the adept tier.

Before they’ve added the Revealed debuff, LR was working as intended. If they ever change it to “invisibility”, you’ll still face the same problem since stealth, cloaked, camouflage, and invisibility are one and the same in GW2. If ArenaNet choose to put stealth and invis into separate categories, then you’ll have two event that you cannot visually distinguish.

I believe that ArenaNet is going for simplification of functions by using one set of rules, so when you see someone disappears while in combat, they are more than likely to be in stealth and if they attack, they will be revealed. Having two sets of rules to govern the same visual function only adds unnecessary complexity to an already complicated mechanic.

It is my opinion that we are better off if ArenaNet choose to swap the traits — and I’m leaning more towards Slowed Pulse because the trait slot is meant to save the Thief from dying and bleeding is the most common condition regardless of the meta.

No. And A Thief can lose the majority of his HP in a single hit or two so it’s still unpredictable. The Trait has been broken ever since revealed was added, because it wasn’t built to coexist with such a mechanic that didn’t exist when it was created. They refuse to address this bug for a reason that is beyond understanding.

Cronicle.5691:

Im not letting LR dictate when i disengage. I’m letting my knowledge of my health pool that it WILL trigger if i hit 3,876 health which is practically 1 hit away, (1 critical auto attack) from killing you.

That knowledge is worthless since if 25% is 1 hit away, 50% is 2hits away and 75% is 3hits away — meaning the Thief shouldn’t even engage in the first place.

IF you have condition on you, you are most likely going down. Yes i have won with a low health pool before, ive had close encounters. I have died to getting revealed to last refuge before. Nobody can play perfect and everybody makes mistakes eventually.

The problem is, LR triggering that caused your death isn’t a mistake.

But to put blame on an ability which is an Anti burst defence trait for 1 minor point that will give you free stealth and blind is a win.

LR is not an “anti-burst” — that’s a misconception. If it gives 90% damage reduction on trigger for 3s, then it is an anti-burst.

Had last refuge triggered if you hit 90% health pool… then yes i dont see its purpose. But as it stands right now i see it being a more positive trait for its minor point than it being negative.

It is both a positive and a negative trait depending on the play style.

Eh. My old idea was to make LR function like Decoy. Unfortunately, since that time, ANet removed the stealth/revealed bypass from Decoy, so I’m back to square frigging one on this bit.
Honestly, the best option now would be to simply make it a major trait. Then, everyone wins. LR haters don’t need to deal with it, and LR fans’ll slot that bad boy in seconds.

Cronicle.5691:

Im not letting LR dictate when i disengage. I’m letting my knowledge of my health pool that it WILL trigger if i hit 3,876 health which is practically 1 hit away, (1 critical auto attack) from killing you. IF you have condition on you, you are most likely going down. Yes i have won with a low health pool before, ive had close encounters. I have died to getting revealed to last refuge before. Nobody can play perfect and everybody makes mistakes eventually. But to put blame on an ability which is an Anti burst defence trait for 1 minor point that will give you free stealth and blind is a win.
Had last refuge triggered if you hit 90% health pool… then yes i dont see its purpose. But as it stands right now i see it being a more positive trait for its minor point than it being negative.

1: Serious question, given that your screenshot is of you in some abhorrent PvE section of the game, do you PvP? And you understand that people do not give a kitten about how useful / not useful LR (or anything) is in PvE?

2: How exactly is Last Refuge an anti-burst trait when it doesn’t stop you from taking damage? If they removed the stealth and just had it release the blind it would be a buff.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cronicle.5691:

Im not letting LR dictate when i disengage. I’m letting my knowledge of my health pool that it WILL trigger if i hit 3,876 health which is practically 1 hit away, (1 critical auto attack) from killing you.

That knowledge is worthless since if 25% is 1 hit away, 50% is 2hits away and 75% is 3hits away — meaning the Thief shouldn’t even engage in the first place.

IF you have condition on you, you are most likely going down. Yes i have won with a low health pool before, ive had close encounters. I have died to getting revealed to last refuge before. Nobody can play perfect and everybody makes mistakes eventually.

The problem is, LR triggering that caused your death isn’t a mistake.

But to put blame on an ability which is an Anti burst defence trait for 1 minor point that will give you free stealth and blind is a win.

LR is not an “anti-burst” — that’s a misconception. If it gives 90% damage reduction on trigger for 3s, then it is an anti-burst.

Had last refuge triggered if you hit 90% health pool… then yes i dont see its purpose. But as it stands right now i see it being a more positive trait for its minor point than it being negative.

It is both a positive and a negative trait depending on the play style.

That is horsekitty Vincent and you know that. 50% health is not 2 hits away. If you are sitting at 10k-13k health with 1.9k toughness then yea. A burst is not going to save your kitten if its a 3 hit combo that does 10k damage.

Also i disagree with you, it is my mistake if i misplay around Last refuge and end up getting the reveal debuff instead of the cloak which i wanted to be able to re-position and throw my enemy off of my placement.

Lastly, is it a misconception to say that a trait that can actually save you from going into downstate, heal up and reset the fight for your favor to call it an anti burst? Ok. sure, i can agree that it probably not an “anti-burst” because you are still taking the burst but that burst fails if they can’t down you and you escape to be regenerate the health back.

Ok, no problem with 1 or 2 arrows/bullets mid air!
Sure you can sheathe to cancel the melee attacks but… Please explain why a trait should hold me back at any given time?

Until then, yeah it’s a very circumstantial trait that has got me killed on a few (though admittedly rare, which still is too much) occasions with the health threshold in mind.
A rework, even a small one that’d cure ‘revealed’ and refrain from getting the ‘revealed’ effect upon LR proc for like .6 secs would improve the trait by a mile.

I got an aggressive playstyle, LR limits me in the way I can play as opposed to how I want to play.
Ok, I’ve had some benefit of it when I ran with that Trait that gives +200 power to give that extra little push as well… But really, LR’s current mechanic that is built for a game with no ‘reveal’ shouldn’t be on an forced spot in your traitline.

Swapping it for Slowed Pulse, like others said, is also a good idea.

Cronicle.5691:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cronicle.5691:

Im not letting LR dictate when i disengage. I’m letting my knowledge of my health pool that it WILL trigger if i hit 3,876 health which is practically 1 hit away, (1 critical auto attack) from killing you.

That knowledge is worthless since if 25% is 1 hit away, 50% is 2hits away and 75% is 3hits away — meaning the Thief shouldn’t even engage in the first place.

IF you have condition on you, you are most likely going down. Yes i have won with a low health pool before, ive had close encounters. I have died to getting revealed to last refuge before. Nobody can play perfect and everybody makes mistakes eventually.

The problem is, LR triggering that caused your death isn’t a mistake.

But to put blame on an ability which is an Anti burst defence trait for 1 minor point that will give you free stealth and blind is a win.

LR is not an “anti-burst” — that’s a misconception. If it gives 90% damage reduction on trigger for 3s, then it is an anti-burst.

Had last refuge triggered if you hit 90% health pool… then yes i dont see its purpose. But as it stands right now i see it being a more positive trait for its minor point than it being negative.

It is both a positive and a negative trait depending on the play style.

That is horsekitty Vincent and you know that. 50% health is not 2 hits away. If you are sitting at 10k-13k health with 1.9k toughness then yea. A burst is not going to save your kitten if its a 3 hit combo that does 10k damage.

You said that 3.8k is 25% and if you get hit, it is game over. So if 25% is 1 hit, then 50% must be 2hits and 75% is 3hits — correct?

Your toughness doesn’t really matter at this point since you’d take 3.8k damage according to you.

I was merely using your numbers.

Also i disagree with you, it is my mistake if i misplay around Last refuge and end up getting the reveal debuff instead of the cloak which i wanted to be able to re-position and throw my enemy off of my placement.

That’s not always the case — that’s only true to you and others that plays the same as your play style. You’re using a broad generalization that all Thief should play like you else they are making a mistake — that’s a fallacy.

Lastly, is it a misconception to say that a trait that can actually save you from going into downstate, heal up and reset the fight for your favor to call it an anti burst? Ok. sure, i can agree that it probably not an “anti-burst” because you are still taking the burst but that burst fails if they can’t down you and you escape to be regenerate the health back.

It’s not “probably not”, “it is not”. Resilience of Shadows is an anti-burst, LR is not.

And unfortunately, LR doesn’t regen your health either. You have to either use your heal or spec deep into SA and pick up Shadow’s Rejuv.

The only time that LR is great at is when you are below 50% health trying to run away and you are getting attacked — meaning you already have a great distance between you and your attacker — thus triggering an LR when you drop to 25% is acceptable, but not during engagement.

Cronicle, I’d like to address something you said in your OP. The way you said it was that we are bad players for not paying attention to the trigger of LR when we are in combat. The thing is, most of the time it procs to reveal me or another player it generally happens because we are trying to take steps in order to save ourselves. It’s a natural instinct for a player to try to act to save their life not run and wait for a proc while I see your argument I do have to disagree with you. I think the trait actually screws over good players who are acting when they are low health (i.e going for a cnd on a target as your hp gets low to regen some health and get back in the fight) rather than benefitting them. As I’ve said before I’d rather it did something like heal for 2k next time you enter stealth when your health drops below 25%. Then the good players who act to stop themselves from dying will get a reward and they won’t have to worry about getting revealed for playing the way they were taught to.

Hope that made sense, if you have a counter argument I’d love to hear it as you are the first person I’ve met that likes this trait and I’d be happy to debate with you.

Any1 ever think about that maybe SA traitline is so strong that Anet put this in just to annoy players out of the traitline^^

Ario.8964:

Cronicle, I’d like to address something you said in your OP. The way you said it was that we are bad players for not paying attention to the trigger of LR when we are in combat. The thing is, most of the time it procs to reveal me or another player it generally happens because we are trying to take steps in order to save ourselves. It’s a natural instinct for a player to try to act to save their life not run and wait for a proc while I see your argument I do have to disagree with you. I think the trait actually screws over good players who are acting when they are low health (i.e going for a cnd on a target as your hp gets low to regen some health and get back in the fight) rather than benefitting them. As I’ve said before I’d rather it did something like heal for 2k next time you enter stealth when your health drops below 25%. Then the good players who act to stop themselves from dying will get a reward and they won’t have to worry about getting revealed for playing the way they were taught to.

Hope that made sense, if you have a counter argument I’d love to hear it as you are the first person I’ve met that likes this trait and I’d be happy to debate with you.

It has its advantages and disadvantages but it doesn’t deserve the hate that people make out of it that it punishes players. Now i know that players who put points into shadow arts are very likely to go all the way up to Shadow Rejuvenation and Even pick up shadows embrace for the condi removal.

Currently I’ve built 1 of my thieves heavily around this “disadvantage” that people say to make it probably my biggest strength in Spvp and all because of 1 Rune set. Superior rune of Vampirism plays perfectly with Last refuge. Both trigger almost exact same time which gives you mist form and stealth where your invulnerable for 3 seconds. Now i am not suggesting that this is the way to go but to give an example that you have a choice to play with our against it. This lets me pull of stomps safely when the enemy will heavily cleave focus on their downed teammate to prevent somebody from stomping them etc. Again, i will emphasize on that this is not a matter of forcing players to go 1 route because of a simple little trait which does help save lives, just remember where you probably don’t benefit, others do.

I am open for debating LR but i am not up for seeing any more hate posts that it should be removed blah blah. kittens getting really annoying to see.

i would not mind it if they replaced the trait with a free black powder at 25% health so i can heartseeker through it if i actually want to be stealthed.

At this point lets face it. A change in the trait itself is not going to happen and i can mention a fair amount of other traits that probably deserve more love than last refuge *cough*improvisation*cough*, but it is not going to happen. Perhaps the trait will be swapped around but it wont get changed. So deal with it. I feel the majority of thieves who come to the forum have actually gotten good at the class that now instead of discussing tactics and counters to other builds. Feels like we are just seeking excuses.

It’s not a learning issue, the trait is just bad.

Just assume you are some kind of perfect player, that you have every information at every point in time. That you know everything about the current situation.
But you will never know if the next hit is a crit and can you bring under the health threshold or not. You cannot know if air/fire will proc or not.

So you are in a situation, where it is impossible to decide if you should use for example CnD or not.

And that is bad design for a trait that you are forced to use, if you don’t run s/x and want to have some condi remove in the cele meta.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Fair enough.

I support changing LR to “Invisibility” (stealth without SA benefits or Stealth attacks, with no revealed for landing an attack while invisible). However, if we’re assuming that Anet will never put the time in to fixing LR, I agree it can be useful for running away, and swapping it to 2 point adept would be the best course of action.

Edit: Considering that 6/0/2/0/6 is a fairly popular meta choice at the moment, I do see some value from Anet’s side in swapping LR into the adept tier.

Before they’ve added the Revealed debuff, LR was working as intended. If they ever change it to “invisibility”, you’ll still face the same problem since stealth, cloaked, camouflage, and invisibility are one and the same in GW2. If ArenaNet choose to put stealth and invis into separate categories, then you’ll have two event that you cannot visually distinguish.

I believe that ArenaNet is going for simplification of functions by using one set of rules, so when you see someone disappears while in combat, they are more than likely to be in stealth and if they attack, they will be revealed. Having two sets of rules to govern the same visual function only adds unnecessary complexity to an already complicated mechanic.

It is my opinion that we are better off if ArenaNet choose to swap the traits — and I’m leaning more towards Slowed Pulse because the trait slot is meant to save the Thief from dying and bleeding is the most common condition regardless of the meta.

See, I don’t understand how it was different before the revealed debuff was introduced. So before revealed was introduced, say you’re midway through an attack and last refuge triggers. You stealth, then come out of stealth immediately. You still have to CnD again to re-enter stealth, and if people are that low as to be one hit then surely you’re screwed revealed or not?

I never played the beta so revealed was always there for me, and personally I don’t mind the trait, but I run S/D 90% of the time so it’s generally helpful for me. Tbh I think the issue is more that we pretty much have to put 2 points in SA for condi clean, if we had more condi removal outside of stealth I think last refgue would thus be less of a problem for the more aggressive of us.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Fair enough.

I support changing LR to “Invisibility” (stealth without SA benefits or Stealth attacks, with no revealed for landing an attack while invisible). However, if we’re assuming that Anet will never put the time in to fixing LR, I agree it can be useful for running away, and swapping it to 2 point adept would be the best course of action.

Edit: Considering that 6/0/2/0/6 is a fairly popular meta choice at the moment, I do see some value from Anet’s side in swapping LR into the adept tier.

Before they’ve added the Revealed debuff, LR was working as intended. If they ever change it to “invisibility”, you’ll still face the same problem since stealth, cloaked, camouflage, and invisibility are one and the same in GW2. If ArenaNet choose to put stealth and invis into separate categories, then you’ll have two event that you cannot visually distinguish.

I believe that ArenaNet is going for simplification of functions by using one set of rules, so when you see someone disappears while in combat, they are more than likely to be in stealth and if they attack, they will be revealed. Having two sets of rules to govern the same visual function only adds unnecessary complexity to an already complicated mechanic.

It is my opinion that we are better off if ArenaNet choose to swap the traits — and I’m leaning more towards Slowed Pulse because the trait slot is meant to save the Thief from dying and bleeding is the most common condition regardless of the meta.

See, I don’t understand how it was different before the revealed debuff was introduced. So before revealed was introduced, say you’re midway through an attack and last refuge triggers. You stealth, then come out of stealth immediately. You still have to CnD again to re-enter stealth, and if people are that low as to be one hit then surely you’re screwed revealed or not?

That’s not how it works. LR interrupts your attack to prevent you from revealing yourself — the problem is the timing.

Most of the time this is the case for me. I see my target casting a heal and I try to interrupt it with Headshot but LR triggers and it interrupts my HS. Now my target has a 2/3 of their health back so I’m screwed because most of the time I’m already at low health and that interrupt would have finished him off. It was not a mistake like the OP wants to illustrate, it’s a bad trait match to my play style.

Now before revealed, I can continue with my attacks that even if it triggers it didn’t matter because it never interrupts my skill.

I never played the beta so revealed was always there for me, and personally I don’t mind the trait, but I run S/D 90% of the time so it’s generally helpful for me. Tbh I think the issue is more that we pretty much have to put 2 points in SA for condi clean, if we had more condi removal outside of stealth I think last refgue would thus be less of a problem for the more aggressive of us.

Revealed is really not the problem, that issue is that LR triggers when we don’t want it to and when it does, it breaks our timing and momentum. Sometimes it even wastes our initiatives. One instance is when I know that I need to go in stealth so I use CnD, but LR triggers before my CnD hits and it cause me to be revealed when CnD connects. This is a main cause of the aggravation.

LR is bad trait making bad choice in a bad situation.

“It works sometimes so you should stop complaining”

No. That’s as bad an argument as it is an ability.

@Cronicle, love that you’re willing to debate this because I’d like to hear different views about this trait as I overall have not had very good experiences with it.

The only reason I say it “punishes” players is that they have to fight it if they don’t build around it (your build for example) so it ends up killing them occasionally because it goes against their natural instinct as players. Now while I don’t think it should be removed I do believe there could be a rework of it to benefit people who don’t build around it so like “if you exit stealth when below 25%hp heal yourself for 2000” (only if you exit stealth before the initial stealth from LR wears off) then what you have is a trait that will benefit people no matter how they choose to play around with the trait. Does that seem like it’d be a decent tradeoff or is there something you think they could do with it to allow any playstyle with it to be used?

i would put 2 points into sa if that ability wasnt garbage

King Noob IV.3560:

i would put 2 points into sa if that ability wasnt garbage

You’re a meal to condition builds if you don’t.

Nephrite.6954:

King Noob IV.3560:

i would put 2 points into sa if that ability wasnt garbage

You’re a meal to condition builds if you don’t.

ya when ever i die and check the damage history thing the top 3 skills are always like burning and bleeding and stuff. but i have no points to put into sa because i need everything else ):

King Noob IV.3560:

Nephrite.6954:

King Noob IV.3560:

i would put 2 points into sa if that ability wasnt garbage

You’re a meal to condition builds if you don’t.

ya when ever i die and check the damage history thing the top 3 skills are always like burning and bleeding and stuff. but i have no points to put into sa because i need everything else ):

If condition is a problem and you have high enough Crit Chance, you can always pick up Sigil of Purity. EDIT: I meant Generosity, but Purity is good too.

Whilst I agree that that there have been good points made by both sides in this debate, my opinion still remains the same, that being, a classes traits should never under any circumstances force a player to change his or her play style to suit it.

Someone said it earlier, zerker builds (e.g.6/0/2/0/6) have such a low health pool that 25% of their health would amount to an auto attack from a zerk axe warrior. Kind of hard to deliberately wait for an LR proc when your getting hit for 3.5-4k per auto attack.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

King Noob IV.3560:

Nephrite.6954:

King Noob IV.3560:

i would put 2 points into sa if that ability wasnt garbage

You’re a meal to condition builds if you don’t.

ya when ever i die and check the damage history thing the top 3 skills are always like burning and bleeding and stuff. but i have no points to put into sa because i need everything else ):

If condition is a problem and you have high enough Crit Chance, you can always pick up Sigil of Purity. EDIT: I meant Generosity, but Purity is good too.

yooo wtf that’s crazy strong, with 6 in crit tree and all the crit chance buffs this sigil is crazy strong. why don’t people use it it’s always the air and fire stuff
edit: oh wait it has a cooldown nvm

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Fair enough.

I support changing LR to “Invisibility” (stealth without SA benefits or Stealth attacks, with no revealed for landing an attack while invisible). However, if we’re assuming that Anet will never put the time in to fixing LR, I agree it can be useful for running away, and swapping it to 2 point adept would be the best course of action.

Edit: Considering that 6/0/2/0/6 is a fairly popular meta choice at the moment, I do see some value from Anet’s side in swapping LR into the adept tier.

Before they’ve added the Revealed debuff, LR was working as intended. If they ever change it to “invisibility”, you’ll still face the same problem since stealth, cloaked, camouflage, and invisibility are one and the same in GW2. If ArenaNet choose to put stealth and invis into separate categories, then you’ll have two event that you cannot visually distinguish.

I believe that ArenaNet is going for simplification of functions by using one set of rules, so when you see someone disappears while in combat, they are more than likely to be in stealth and if they attack, they will be revealed. Having two sets of rules to govern the same visual function only adds unnecessary complexity to an already complicated mechanic.

It is my opinion that we are better off if ArenaNet choose to swap the traits — and I’m leaning more towards Slowed Pulse because the trait slot is meant to save the Thief from dying and bleeding is the most common condition regardless of the meta.

See, I don’t understand how it was different before the revealed debuff was introduced. So before revealed was introduced, say you’re midway through an attack and last refuge triggers. You stealth, then come out of stealth immediately. You still have to CnD again to re-enter stealth, and if people are that low as to be one hit then surely you’re screwed revealed or not?

That’s not how it works. LR interrupts your attack to prevent you from revealing yourself — the problem is the timing.

Most of the time this is the case for me. I see my target casting a heal and I try to interrupt it with Headshot but LR triggers and it interrupts my HS. Now my target has a 2/3 of their health back so I’m screwed because most of the time I’m already at low health and that interrupt would have finished him off. It was not a mistake like the OP wants to illustrate, it’s a bad trait match to my play style.

Now before revealed, I can continue with my attacks that even if it triggers it didn’t matter because it never interrupts my skill.

I never played the beta so revealed was always there for me, and personally I don’t mind the trait, but I run S/D 90% of the time so it’s generally helpful for me. Tbh I think the issue is more that we pretty much have to put 2 points in SA for condi clean, if we had more condi removal outside of stealth I think last refgue would thus be less of a problem for the more aggressive of us.

Revealed is really not the problem, that issue is that LR triggers when we don’t want it to and when it does, it breaks our timing and momentum. Sometimes it even wastes our initiatives. One instance is when I know that I need to go in stealth so I use CnD, but LR triggers before my CnD hits and it cause me to be revealed when CnD connects. This is a main cause of the aggravation.

LR is bad trait making bad choice in a bad situation.

That’s fair enough. I tend to run less stealth on S/D and I generally swap to shortbow to kite when I’m low, since I personally feel mobility is a better defence than stealth, so it’s probably a difference in playstyles as you say. I can see why it would be frustrating from those examples.

I wouldn’t have a problem with it becoming an adept trait so people could choose whether to have it or not, even though I often benefit from it myself. Frankly though, if it doesn’t happen in the expansion, it’s never gonna happen.

King Noob IV.3560:

yooo wtf that’s crazy strong, with 6 in crit tree and all the crit chance buffs this sigil is crazy strong. why don’t people use it it’s always the air and fire stuff
edit: oh wait it has a cooldown nvm

The option to save your life is hindered by a cool down? Does your other condition removal not have any cool down?

Your not making any sense.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Frankly though, if it doesn’t happen in the expansion, it’s never gonna happen.

Believe me, every patch we wonder about why LR is being ignored. It’s been almost 3yrs and still not fixed so I’m skeptical that they will even fix it this expansion.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

King Noob IV.3560:

yooo wtf that’s crazy strong, with 6 in crit tree and all the crit chance buffs this sigil is crazy strong. why don’t people use it it’s always the air and fire stuff
edit: oh wait it has a cooldown nvm

The option to save your life is hindered by a cool down? Does your other condition removal not have any cool down?

Your not making any sense.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Frankly though, if it doesn’t happen in the expansion, it’s never gonna happen.

Believe me, every patch we wonder about why LR is being ignored. It’s been almost 3yrs and still not fixed so I’m skeptical that they will even fix it this expansion.

lol what isn’t making sense, i just said i don’t think it’s as strong as i previously thought because i thought there was no cooldown on it. I just made up another build though so I don’t need it anymore

King Noob IV.3560:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

King Noob IV.3560:

yooo wtf that’s crazy strong, with 6 in crit tree and all the crit chance buffs this sigil is crazy strong. why don’t people use it it’s always the air and fire stuff
edit: oh wait it has a cooldown nvm

The option to save your life is hindered by a cool down? Does your other condition removal not have any cool down?

Your not making any sense.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Frankly though, if it doesn’t happen in the expansion, it’s never gonna happen.

Believe me, every patch we wonder about why LR is being ignored. It’s been almost 3yrs and still not fixed so I’m skeptical that they will even fix it this expansion.

lol what isn’t making sense, i just said i don’t think it’s as strong as i previously thought because i thought there was no cooldown on it.

That’s the part that doesn’t make sense. You don’t like it because it has cool down while any other condition removal also have cool down. >.<’

I just made up another build though so I don’t need it anymore

May your condition removal not have any cool down.

i think the HP threshold is mainly the issue if anything

33% might sound a lot but given low thief HP it is actually nothing, you can go below 33% in literary 1 hit so predicting when LR gonna hit or not is actually almost impossible on thief

if thieves had as much HP as bunker necro, maybe it was actually manageable and you could plan around it….

also it gotta be only 1 trait in entire game that you can’t disable if you go SA and that is designed to actually get you killed instead of helping you

No
Not a chance

OP, you don’t seem to understand people’s frustration with this trait, even with people reciting it back to you in your own thread. It’s a minor trait in a trait line people generally like to use, yet it has the potential to cause a negative effect on your playstyle. Even if you may see it as occasional or not a big deal, the fact that it has and does cause this problem for many people is the reason we “complain” about it.

Doesn’t matter that it tells you the health you will trigger this trait at, 25% for most thieves isn’t a whole lot and can come at a split second. Thief is about making quick decisions to live and fight, any trait or skill that acts on its own is bad by nature and should be addressed or at the very least made optional.

What they should do?

Leave it as it is, remove SE, buff innate condition cleansing.

Now the SA rejuv/permastealth bads can still get killed by misplaying and the entire class and other builds can see basic functionality in sPvP and solo tactics without depending on SA/SE/forcing those who do for SE to play with this broken trait.