Guild Wars 2

So I’ve been trying to break away from the DPS-heavy builds I’ve been running for ages at this point — which, don’t get me wrong, work great … they’re just a bit too heavily focused on doing nothing but damage.

While chatting up a guild mate about wanting to get back into using Sword/Dagger (which I remember having seen the skill get reworked an age ago), he gave me an interesting suggestion for a build which I promptly tried out in the field. Huzzah for free re-spec of traits!

But suddenly I remembered why I went from a Sword/Dagger build back to Dual-Dagger: the Sword skills are a pain and feel out of place with the rest of the “speedy” flow of regular Thief skills.

The Deets — Part 1
Alright, cloning out portions of the wiki for those of you who’d like a local copy here (accurate to Jan 19).

• Sword #2: Infiltrator’s Strike — shadowsteps 600 units to a foe and immobilizes for 1 second. Does damage. Chains to:
• Sword #2’: Infiltrator’s Return — shadowsteps 1200 units to the point where Infiltrator’s Strike was activated. 0.5s activation time. This skill chain remains “live” for 10 seconds, and must either expire or be used to reset it.

Alright, this right here is kind of a problem. Shadowstep is an awesome mechanic which defines the Thief class (alongside stealth and stealing), and the ability to suddenly surge up to an opponent and unleash bladed fury is invaluable. As a chase, it rivals Heartseeker for versatility (if not damage) thanks to the immobilize, and can be very useful for counteracting knockback effects.

But the usability ends the moment you’ve activated it. You must either sacrifice the activation time to return to your original position (which can be up to double the range away) in order to use it again, or wait 10 seconds for it to expire and “reset.”

This really breaks the “flow” of the combat, and can be a real headache when you’re trying to manage multiple foes at a time. Moreover, the (buggy?) half-second activation time has turned Infiltrator’s Return from a very convenient escape into another break in the flow.

Proposal
This probably won’t be a very popular one, but in all honesty, Thief already has a built-in Shadowstep ability that actually still breaks stuns (unlike the reworked Infiltrator’s Return). Moreover, it has no cast time and a 1200 unit range … albeit a 50s cooldown. It’s called Shadowstep — which then becomes Shadow Return and is nigh the same ability.

Thus, let’s strip out the functionality of Infiltrator’s Return and leave Infiltrator’s Strike as an at-will shadow step. This will serve to improve the flow of combat and allow a Thief to very rapidly traverse a field and strike foes. To compensate for the loss, I would suggest decreasing the cooldown of Shadowstep, thus making it a more versatile utility and helping to bring focus to its use as an escape as well.

The Deets — Part 2
Let’s look at the Sword/Dagger dual skill, which was reworked some time ago.

• Sword/Dagger #3: Flanking Strike — evade your foe for 0.5 seconds and deal damage. This skill cleaves. Chains to:
• Sword/Dagger #3’: Larcenous Strike — deal damage to the target and steal a boon. This skill is unblockable. (*Not listed: this skill remains “live” for 4 seconds before expiring, causing the chain to reset).

Now, originally this skill was a single action that dealt two strikes as evidenced in the link. As a result, it worked as a secondary dodge that cost 4 Initiative, and if timed correctly, could be used in combination with standard Dodge to truly frustrate your foes. The fact that your first strike stole a boon was just that extra bit of candy.

But again we end up with a problem. The breaking apart of the skill means that you must then use Larcenous Strike to “reactivate” the ability to use Flanking Strike, and thus evade again. This effectively places the focus on the second attack in the chain and its ability to steal a boon. It also, again, disrupts the flow of combat by splitting actions.

And before anyone says that allowing a thief a nearly at-will evasion is unfair, let me remind you of two professions with basic attacks that are capable of a brief evasion: Power Stab, Evasive Strike, and Evasive Strike.

Proposal
Alright, I’m going to say that the 5 Initiative cost for the combined skills is actually pretty acceptable. It places a hefty cost on the skill and focuses not on abusing it, but rather on careful execution. That’s fine.

However, let’s merge the skill chain back together the way it used to be, but with one caveat: the boon steal remains on the second strike (as opposed to its original behavior as part of the first). This returns the feeling of speed to the action and the weapon set, and maintains flow by not having an awkward toggle (or double button-press) to fully execution the action.

And while I understand that having the ability to use Larcenous Strike on a second target is quite useful, it honestly feels very counter-intuitive to have split the skill into a chain in the first place. Especially because you’ve got 4 seconds to activate* the second attack if you were intending to use it elsewhere.

I appreciate your input for ideas, but due to lack of time I will say this, while I agree that the 15 IR standby has let several people get away from me since IS was off roll over, I think simple eliminating cast-time like it was before would allow a very quick turnover to use IS again while keeping the condi removal of IR

Counter suggestion: No.

I also don’t have much time so I’ll keep it brief. The flow of combat is fine. Infiltrator’s return is an escape from AoE and incoming pile, and it’s a much needed condition cleanse. Quite often flanking strikes will be evaded, or just be used to evade your opponent. If larcenous strike was merged, you’d lose that strong boon theft attack. As it is, you can actually go and land it if it wasn’t landed, and even chain it with a shadow step. Merging wouldn’t increase flow, it would reduce skill level required but also reduce versatility and I would consider it a nerf.

Impact.2780:

Counter suggestion: No.

I also don’t have much time so I’ll keep it brief. The flow of combat is fine. Infiltrator’s return is an escape from AoE and incoming pile, and it’s a much needed condition cleanse. Quite often flanking strikes will be evaded, or just be used to evade your opponent. If larcenous strike was merged, you’d lose that strong boon theft attack. As it is, you can actually go and land it if it wasn’t landed, and even chain it with a shadow step. Merging wouldn’t increase flow, it would reduce skill level required but also reduce versatility and I would consider it a nerf.

I’m going to assume this is in regards to PvP play, rather than PvE where foes rarely (if ever) use evasion?

Your suggestion about infiltrator’s strike will make things worse, I’d rather have the ability to juke my enemies and escape critical situations with infiltrator’s return than to have an at-will shadowstep ability that will most likely require a target for it to cast, making it an unreliable ability for escaping purposes. And if this at-will shadowstep was a castable aoe, might as well just call it infiltrator’s arrow and be done with it.

fluffdragon.1523:

Proposal
Alright, I’m going to say that the 5 Initiative cost for the combined skills is actually pretty acceptable. It places a hefty cost on the skill and focuses not on abusing it, but rather on careful execution. That’s fine.

However, let’s merge the skill chain back together the way it used to be, but with one caveat: the boon steal remains on the second strike (as opposed to its original behavior as part of the first). This returns the feeling of speed to the action and the weapon set, and maintains flow by not having an awkward toggle (or double button-press) to fully execution the action.

And while I understand that having the ability to use Larcenous Strike on a second target is quite useful, it honestly feels very counter-intuitive to have split the skill into a chain in the first place. Especially because you’ve got 4 seconds to activate* the second attack if you were intending to use it elsewhere.

No. Sword/dagger #3 being split is actually great; On my trickery build where “steal” is traited to steal 2 boons, I often prepare a “Larcenous Strike” before engaging then proceed with the combo “steal” + " Larcenous Strike" for a total of 3 boons steal in a matter of split second. It is also a great combo for burst as a sword/dagger user. If the skill returns to its previous status where it’s not split, it would be harder and would take longer to pull off that combo, whereas when it’s split, you have a 4 seconds window to aim your steal and make sure you don’t waste it on a dodge.

I’ve always felt that the sword skills are very slow and disjointed feeling in comparison to the rest of our weapon sets.

Then I made a ranger that used S/D and fell in love with the skills due to how thief-like they felt. I really wish I could swap those for our S/D skills.

Lunaire.5827:

I’ve always felt that the sword skills are very slow and disjointed feeling in comparison to the rest of our weapon sets.

Then I made a ranger that used S/D and fell in love with the skills due to how thief-like they felt. I really wish I could swap those for our S/D skills.

Dat Serpent Strike

RedSpectrum.1975:

Lunaire.5827:

I’ve always felt that the sword skills are very slow and disjointed feeling in comparison to the rest of our weapon sets.

Then I made a ranger that used S/D and fell in love with the skills due to how thief-like they felt. I really wish I could swap those for our S/D skills.

Dat Serpent Strike

I’ve yet to make a ranger, but jeez … just looking over the style of them sounds way more like how I would imagine a thief wielding a sword to begin with, you know? Mobile, rather than just … standing there. Not to mention I am absolutely envious by the number of multi-function evades a S/D ranger gets. Or the number of conditions! For a class with a tree dedicated to empowering and using venoms and poisons, it’s rather surprising that Thief has so few … well, poisons.

(excuse me while I test this now …)

Lunaire, you’re absolutely right. While I’ll discount the differing Dagger skills, there’s absolutely no contest on sword: Ranger is a better thief than Thief.

The skills are faster, more fluid, more acrobatic, have more visual flourish, and are far better at actually handling combat. My only complaint would be that the Kick and Pounce skills (second and third attack of the basic auto-attack chain) “lock” you in place, making it hard to circle-strafe foes.