Guild Wars 2

Hey guys!

Here is a quick suggestion: When you block an enemy who is in stealth, the stealth goes away like you would have taken damage. Revealed does not have to be included here IMHO.

From the blockers perspective: it gives more counterplay against stealthed enemies. Currently your enemy only goes out of stealths when it runs out or hits your enemy.
(Dont start about AoE because it doesnt affect stealth)

From stealthed person perspective: it seems like a huge nerf, but from the other side, if you are a bit skillful you can reapply stealth when your enemy starts blocking and let them waste their block.

While you were smart with saying no revealed would be added I’m not sure I agree it’s the best idea. Looking at it in purely an spvp perspective (I don’t wvw that much anymore so I can’t give you an accurate opinion there) it would be a massive nerf to certain specs on thief which are already borderline unviable due to the current meta builds being used (i.e. Crit strikes thief which has been made very weak due to the amount of celestial builds which counter the thief with high sustain, condi application, and lots of direct damage available). Now of course blocks aren’t all that common outside of guardian and engi so the implementation would really only apply to them. Unfortunately those classes already counter the thief pretty hard and would then make it near impossible for a thief to kill them if they just count stealth time and use their blocks accordingly.

So really, I don’t support this idea from an spvp standpoint because of the repercussions it would have on the class itself. Now granted you could just restealth but the only spec in pvp that uses stealth is already extremely initiative heavy and this would make the issue even worse for them as with all the guards and engis around they would end up using initiative very quickly with no benefits due to the sheer amount of blocks coming from those 2 classes. It’s a cool idea but it probably wouldn’t work out too well in the long run for the highly fragile thief class.

Again wvw is a different story and this may very well work out there but in pvp I’d say no to it.

The V.8759:

From stealthed person perspective: it seems like a huge nerf, but from the other side, if you are a bit skillful you can reapply stealth when your enemy starts blocking and let them waste their block.

Good players do that now.

Also, this would make DPS Guards even more of a curb stomp matchup against thieves because of Aegis.

I really don’t see stealth as being as much of a problem as everyone seems to regard it. I have and enjoy my thief, but I do not main it, I play other classes in PvP more often than my thief. Thieves are exceptionally squishy, and they still take damage while stealthed, so I put down as many AOE’s as possible when they stealth to keep the pressure on them and force the thief into the defensive. Also, just blocking one or two backstabs in a fight is huge, because time is against a thief in a fight due to them being so squishy.

Gern.2978:

I really don’t see stealth as being as much of a problem as everyone seems to regard it. I have and enjoy my thief, but I do not main it, I play other classes in PvP more often than my thief. Thieves are exceptionally squishy, and they still take damage while stealthed, so I put down as many AOE’s as possible when they stealth to keep the pressure on them and force the thief into the defensive. Also, just blocking one or two backstabs in a fight is huge, because time is against a thief in a fight due to them being so squishy.

Invisibility being counterable?!

((+1 though, if only people would care))

If you block a thief, 90% of the time he is behind you. Attack into that space and eat a front backstab. You have won the fight.

Glad I could help.

Wolfield.9812:

If you block a thief, 90% of the time he is behind you. Attack into that space and eat a front backstab. You have won the fight.

Glad I could help.

Not necessarily. He might have attacked you at front so that you would do exactly what you said — turn your back from a Thief for a backstab.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wolfield.9812:

If you block a thief, 90% of the time he is behind you. Attack into that space and eat a front backstab. You have won the fight.

Glad I could help.

Not necessarily. He might have attacked you at front so that you would do exactly what you said — turn your back from a Thief for a backstab.

Woah there, now we’re getting into some advanced physics metagame kitten

Against players who know what they’re doing it’s already hard enough to land a good backstab; why make it harder?

This would also make medi guards counter thieves even more.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wolfield.9812:

If you block a thief, 90% of the time he is behind you. Attack into that space and eat a front backstab. You have won the fight.

Glad I could help.

Not necessarily. He might have attacked you at front so that you would do exactly what you said — turn your back from a Thief for a backstab.

Woah there, now we’re getting into some advanced physics metagame kitten

err…what?

God… I could have sworn this has been brought up in the past…

O well, I guess it’s new people coming to the forums.

alchemyst.2165:

Against players who know what they’re doing it’s already hard enough to land a good backstab; why make it harder?

This would also make medi guards counter thieves even more.

Indeed now you mention medi guards it sounds indeed like a huge nerf for thief Vs guard.
Landing a backstab is not that hard at all since it doesnt have to be in the back, but can also be done in the sides.
I think it is just really weird that when you receive a hit, which is blocked, you still do not know where it came from.

The V.8759:

Hey guys!

Here is a quick suggestion: When you block an enemy who is in stealth, the stealth goes away like you would have taken damage. Revealed does not have to be included here IMHO.

Great suggestion. Imo, the block/invul/anything that prevents me from dealing dmg to enemy should stop too, I mean, as a thief, I just did something against your block, why should it keep blocking o_O Counterception.

From the blockers perspective: it gives more counterplay against stealthed enemies. Currently your enemy only goes out of stealths when it runs out or hits your enemy.
(Dont start about AoE because it doesnt affect stealth)

One day my thief will grow up and learn how not to die in stealth, aoe doesn’t do anything to stealth after all.

From stealthed person perspective: it seems like a huge nerf, but from the other side, if you are a bit skillful you can reapply stealth when your enemy starts blocking and let them waste their block.

I play D/D, can you please advice me how do I reapply stealth when someone is blocking?

The V.8759:

alchemyst.2165:

Against players who know what they’re doing it’s already hard enough to land a good backstab; why make it harder?

This would also make medi guards counter thieves even more.

Indeed now you mention medi guards it sounds indeed like a huge nerf for thief Vs guard.
Landing a backstab is not that hard at all since it doesnt have to be in the back, but can also be done in the sides.
I think it is just really weird that when you receive a hit, which is blocked, you still do not know where it came from.

Well that’s kind of the point of stealth, to not know where they’re coming from.

And you can assume that if you block an attack from stealth they are flanking you.

And yes, it actually can be very hard to land a proper backstab due to players who know how to dodge, block, blind, predict movements, have protection, or have lots of aoe.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

There are better ways to address this, even w/o reveal this is a bad idea. A lot of the builds that have access to blocks through a skill or aegis already wreck thief, there is no need to add more tools for them.

I’ve seen people suggest an additional cost of initiative to reuse stealth skill if you missed it the first time, or disable your stealth skill and revert it to the auto attack but above all retain stealth effects. It keeps the builds that utilize stealth from simply falling off to a whole list of skills they run into daily.

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

I did and came up with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqOMc8Vs7zU

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

I did and came up with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqOMc8Vs7zU

Go greninja!

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

I did and came up with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqOMc8Vs7zU

lol, yet another meaning to the word that is not even close to what the other poster is talking about. Nice find.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

I did and came up with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqOMc8Vs7zU

lol, yet another meaning to the word that is not even close to what the other poster is talking about. Nice find.

I think that’s what the other guy meant actually. A counter within a counter: counter-ception. Like the movie inception after which everyone started putting “ception” on the end of something when there was one thing inside another.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

I did and came up with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqOMc8Vs7zU

lol, yet another meaning to the word that is not even close to what the other poster is talking about. Nice find.

I think that’s what the other guy meant actually. A counter within a counter: counter-ception. Like the movie inception after which everyone started putting “ception” on the end of something when there was one thing inside another.

I think he meant “counterintuitive” but “counterception” with your definition is much funnier.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

They can’t be interchangeable if one of them isn’t even a proper word. You can exchange an actual word with a fake word.

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

They can’t be interchangeable if one of them isn’t even a proper word. You can exchange an actual word with a fake word.

There’s no such thing as “fake word”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gern.2978:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Counterception.

You do realize that is a birth control term right?

You’re thinking of Contraception.

Trust me, both terms are interchangeable. If not, look it up.

“Counterception” as a word doesn’t exist. It is mainly use by people mispronouncing “Contraception”.

They can’t be interchangeable if one of them isn’t even a proper word. You can exchange an actual word with a fake word.

There’s no such thing as “fake word”.

Except for supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
Wait… nvm it was added to Oxford English Dictionary in 1986…

The word is a result of “counter” and inception (from the movie). Didn’t really expect someone would understand it differently since it was used in a part of post talking about counters and this is a gw2 forum (gaming).

Maugetarr.6823

Jayden Ennok.3687:

The word is a result of “counter” and inception (from the movie). Didn’t really expect someone would understand it differently since it was used in a part of post talking about counters and this is a gw2 forum (gaming).

woo I was right
about inception

and stuff being inside of stuff
like quotes
.
.
.
.
.
quoteception

Jayden Ennok.3687:

The word is a result of “counter” and inception (from the movie). Didn’t really expect someone would understand it differently since it was used in a part of post talking about counters and this is a gw2 forum (gaming).

The problem is “counterception” is already being used for birth control, thus the misunderstanding.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wolfield.9812:

If you block a thief, 90% of the time he is behind you. Attack into that space and eat a front backstab. You have won the fight.

Glad I could help.

Not necessarily. He might have attacked you at front so that you would do exactly what you said — turn your back from a Thief for a backstab.

Woah there, now we’re getting into some advanced physics metagame kitten

It’s called yomi layers:

David Sirlin”

Any decent competitive game needs to allow you to counter the opponent if you know what he will do. What happens, though, when your enemy knows that you know what he will do? He needs a way to counter you. He’s said to be on another level than you, or another “yomi layer.” You knew what he would do (yomi), but he knew that you knew (yomi layer 2). What happens when you know that he knows that you know what he will do (yomi layer 3)? You’ll need a way to counter his counter. And what happens when he knows that you know . . .
[…]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind (scroll down to yomi layers)

Silinsar.6298:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wolfield.9812:

If you block a thief, 90% of the time he is behind you. Attack into that space and eat a front backstab. You have won the fight.

Glad I could help.

Not necessarily. He might have attacked you at front so that you would do exactly what you said — turn your back from a Thief for a backstab.

Woah there, now we’re getting into some advanced physics metagame kitten

It’s called yomi layers:

David Sirlin”

Any decent competitive game needs to allow you to counter the opponent if you know what he will do. What happens, though, when your enemy knows that you know what he will do? He needs a way to counter you. He’s said to be on another level than you, or another “yomi layer.” You knew what he would do (yomi), but he knew that you knew (yomi layer 2). What happens when you know that he knows that you know what he will do (yomi layer 3)? You’ll need a way to counter his counter. And what happens when he knows that you know . . .
[…]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind (scroll down to yomi layers)

You can easily test for the “yomi layer”. As a Thief, this is accomplished by CnD-then-wait tactic — or in this case Backstab-then-wait.

If popping the Aegis makes your target react and turn around, then you know for sure that he doesn’t know what you know. If he didn’t react, then you now know that he knows what you know. If he reacts by turning then turning back, then you now know that he knows that you know what he knows. But in practice, none of these matters because you should be standing on his side (flanking). So no matter what you think you know about him knowing that you know about what he knows, you’re in a right position for a backstab.

First I will say I was part of the stealth hater club until I rolled a thief and played it. Now not so much.

With that said, I generally play thief in PvP. Im not awesome with it or anything yet, but I can hold my own within my MMR.

Now in WvW it is different than in PvP because SA is generally useless in PvP.

Now any change to stealth itself to compensate for WvW will be a dramatic problem in PvP. In PvP you dont use stealth that much but at the very best tactically a few seconds to get a backstab or daze in or to get out of dodge when you have been outplayed or outnumbered.

And this is the problem faced with any change like this to stealth, any more reveal in PvP will mean certain death to thief.

As neither D/P nor S/D really use stealth like you think in PvP.

D/P its a combo of BlackPowder/HS or the heal if they use that heal. A panic strike build may take blinding powder to help with condi’s.

S/D its CnD.

Both generally have SR, but that is for resing and getting out of dodge really.

Believe me even now I still hate WvW thieves, but changing the stealth mechanic like this will create a bigger problem than you think for thieves in PvP.

Block? no. Evade yes.