Guild Wars 2

(I want to begin by saying I am NOT a massively experienced player, and I am fine to admit that unlike 99% of this board. But I HAVE actually played a Thief to 80, and have participated in PvP as one, which counts for more than most of the people screaming for nerfs)

It is clear that no one is happy about the class. On one end you have a lot of annoyed players who want to pull their hair out trying to fight a Thief due to the nature of the class: being annoying.

Unfortunately, that is all Thieves really strive at, leaving the other end of the spectrum not feeling powerful enough to “finish the job” without the need to run away. Now, I have only really played D/D Berserker Thief (10/30/30/0/0), but I can agree with both sides of the spectrum, which all boils down to one thing: Stealth.

I’ll start with the nerfs:

- Stealth Reveal needs to be upped to 4 seconds again. There is no denying how easy it is for a Thief to pop in and out of stealth, and it is insane to think Thieves should have one fairly easy escape button, let alone 3+ (I didn’t say guarantee, just easy). Some builds can cheese stealth to the point where it is almost impossible for even a group to kill a single thief (granted, the thief won’t be killing anyone either, but this shouldn’t be a problem for ANY group against a single class). By increasing Reveal to 4 seconds again, there is a bigger window for someone to actually pull a few hits against Thieves before he disappears. Again, you SHOULDN’T be walking away with little risk in group fights by yourself.

- 1 or 2 seconds docked off the stealth from SR. There isn’t any reason for this skill to keep someone hidden for as long as it does. Otherwise, no changes.

- Healing from Stealth needs to be toned down (healing in general needs a nerf across the board). Why Hide in Shadow is the best healing ability a Thief has is still beyond me, and all the other healing abilities seem useless in comparison. Hide in Shadow needs slightly less healing done upon activation (I’d say roughly 10%). If a Thief wan’t fat heals, he needs to trait for them.

Buffs:

- Since the Thief no longer has a “burst” heal, the trait that allows Thieves to heal while in stealth should get buffed to compensate. Increase each tick by 10%

- Weapon SKill 3. Give the Thief the choice between the Dual Weapons Skill, or the Primary Weapon Skill if he would wield only a main-hand weapon. Nothing in dire need of attention, but could open up some new builds.

- Dagger Main Hand: INCREASE Poison time to 3-4 Seconds, keeping the damage the same. This will reduce healing on the target for longer, allowing the less bursty Thieves that we currently have still able to still go toe-to-toe with his target, preventing them from healing through all the damage dealt. Since the Thief won’t be popping back into stealth as often, this will help remedy that lost DPS as a result.

Again, I am an entry level player to GW2, only recently getting into the PvP scene. I do honestly think turning D/D Thieves into a DPS/Heal Denying class can make it viable again outside of UPlevel ganks. I know Thieves are basically useless without Stealth, and they fear being nerfed into oblivion. Just know, as a fellow Thief, my intentions are not to make us an easy kill. But I do have little experience with other builds, so please let me know if these suggestions harm (fairly) other playstyles.

McFribble.2349:

(I want to begin by saying I am NOT a massively experienced player, and I am fine to admit that unlike 99% of this board. But I HAVE actually played a Thief to 80, and have participated in PvP as one, which counts for more than most of the people screaming for nerfs)

It is clear that no one is happy about the class. On one end you have a lot of annoyed players who want to pull their hair out trying to fight a Thief due to the nature of the class: being annoying.

Unfortunately, that is all Thieves really strive at, leaving the other end of the spectrum not feeling powerful enough to “finish the job” without the need to run away. Now, I have only really played D/D Berserker Thief (10/30/30/0/0), but I can agree with both sides of the spectrum, which all boils down to one thing: Stealth.

I’ll start with the nerfs:

- Stealth Reveal needs to be upped to 4 seconds again. There is no denying how easy it is for a Thief to pop in and out of stealth, and it is insane to think Thieves should have one fairly easy escape button, let alone 3+ (I didn’t say guarantee, just easy). Some builds can cheese stealth to the point where it is almost impossible for even a group to kill a single thief (granted, the thief won’t be killing anyone either, but this shouldn’t be a problem for ANY group against a single class). By increasing Reveal to 4 seconds again, there is a bigger window for someone to actually pull a few hits against Thieves before he disappears. Again, you SHOULDN’T be walking away with little risk in group fights by yourself.

- 1 or 2 seconds docked off the stealth from SR. There isn’t any reason for this skill to keep someone hidden for as long as it does. Otherwise, no changes.

- Healing from Stealth needs to be toned down (healing in general needs a nerf across the board). Why Hide in Shadow is the best healing ability a Thief has is still beyond me, and all the other healing abilities seem useless in comparison. Hide in Shadow needs slightly less healing done upon activation (I’d say roughly 10%). If a Thief wan’t fat heals, he needs to trait for them.

Buffs:

- Since the Thief no longer has a “burst” heal, the trait that allows Thieves to heal while in stealth should get buffed to compensate. Increase each tick by 10%

- Weapon SKill 3. Give the Thief the choice between the Dual Weapons Skill, or the Primary Weapon Skill if he would wield only a main-hand weapon. Nothing in dire need of attention, but could open up some new builds.

- Dagger Main Hand: INCREASE Poison time to 3-4 Seconds, keeping the damage the same. This will reduce healing on the target for longer, allowing the less bursty Thieves that we currently have still able to still go toe-to-toe with his target, preventing them from healing through all the damage dealt. Since the Thief won’t be popping back into stealth as often, this will help remedy that lost DPS as a result.

Again, I am an entry level player to GW2, only recently getting into the PvP scene. I do honestly think turning D/D Thieves into a DPS/Heal Denying class can make it viable again outside of UPlevel ganks. I know Thieves are basically useless without Stealth, and they fear being nerfed into oblivion. Just know, as a fellow Thief, my intentions are not to make us an easy kill. But I do have little experience with other builds, so please let me know if these suggestions harm (fairly) other playstyles.

- Revealed is 4 sec in tPvP , it was only changed back to 3 in PvE + WvW .

- HiS is the “best” heal in terms of raw healing because it has double the C/D of the other heals we have access to !
And the other heals are not useless, it comes down to you build, as a S/D player you can take withdraw for even more “mobility” .

I for myself use SoM becuase i play heavy Sigil orientated currently, this Heal gives me much more then HiS. Because i also have access to Stealh using pistol offhand… so you see it all comes down to your specc / playstyle.

- #3 skills, well not sure, but it would be nice to have some more options, because S/P and P/P #3 are really bad !

- inc. poison time on D #1 would be really nice, but i doubt it will happen.
Poison is really strong, however you must also think about the enemy , for him its really a bane to have i perm on him.. i rather would like to see something done with our poison utils.

- D/D is a burst specc, if you want to be a “heal-deny” class you could specc for heavy Shortbow usage + poison dmg.
Somehow, much toughness and condition dmg.
And second weapn set you would use X/P, do deny that heal / Skill usages with headshot.. dunno / check it out.

McFribble.2349:

- Stealth Reveal needs to be upped to 4 seconds again. There is no denying how easy it is for a Thief to pop in and out of stealth, and it is insane to think Thieves should have one fairly easy escape button, let alone 3+ (I didn’t say guarantee, just easy). Some builds can cheese stealth to the point where it is almost impossible for even a group to kill a single thief (granted, the thief won’t be killing anyone either, but this shouldn’t be a problem for ANY group against a single class). By increasing Reveal to 4 seconds again, there is a bigger window for someone to actually pull a few hits against Thieves before he disappears. Again, you SHOULDN’T be walking away with little risk in group fights by yourself.

You’re gonna get so much hate for this paragraph. I’m sick and tired of arguing for or against buffs since few people seem to understand that stealth is one of the best forms of damage mitigation. (Important edit: Except in sPvP, where it stops you from capping points. Because I just know that this point will be brought up sooner or later)

But anyway, good luck, you’ll need it.

Edit: And like the poster above said, HiS has a long cooldown so it heals a lot. The other two heals will heal more than HiS if used twice in 30 seconds.

Are you sure you’re a thief player?

Also thieves aren’t really as perfect as you make it seem. While stealth may be powerful, it’s not invulnerability.

I’ve been able to down and kill 2 thieves playing together on my guard (provided they were bad players) and later another one solo, all in a row. Thieves are definately powerful but winning will still at least require some skill.

To be honest I am currently happy with the class as is.

Try engineers they are a class to be unhappy about.

Honestly, a lot f the ideas I have for the Thief class is a “heal-denier” as a whole through conditions or whatnot. Conditions keep players in combat, reducing their speed, obviously a -33% heal is bad news bears, and being able to do that to a mass group with a weapon other than the touchy Shortbow would be nice. This allows Thieves to be helpful to zergs, by making players easier to kill for EVERYONE due to reduced healing. All of a sudden, not having a Thief during Zerg fights is as bad as not having a Guardian to tip the scales.

As for Hide in Shadow, it is still far more useful a skill than the others in comparison. Not only is it a HUGE burst heal, but it provides stealth with no initiative cost at that. You shouldn’t be rewarded 60-70%+ of your total health AND benefit from stealth with zero drawbacks or initiative cost tied to it.

While I agree that D/D is all about bursting, it simply doesn’t burst enough to finish the job in time for someone to heal that burst away with one skill. But being able to 2-shot someone is NOT excusable either. That is why I think the Poison/Heal Deny would work wonders for the build, allowing opening burst, and preventing the target from /laughing the pain away with a click of a button. In Conjunction with more Reveal time, I’d say it is a good trade off, and people would be much happier actually SEEING who they are fighting more the not.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Are you sure you’re a thief player?

Also thieves aren’t really as perfect as you make it seem. While stealth may be powerful, it’s not invulnerability.

I’ve been able to down and kill 2 thieves playing together on my guard (provided they were bad players) and later another one solo, all in a row. Thieves are definately powerful but winning will still at least require some skill.

To be honest I am currently happy with the class as is.

Try engineers they are a class to be unhappy about.

I am fully aware Thieves aren’t perfect. I even stated that in the second paragraph saying how most thieves don’t feel strong enough to “finish the job”. Denying your target a decent chunk of his heals can, in an odd way, relate to DPS completely. Just not in a traditional manner.

McFribble.2349:

Again, I am an entry level player to GW2, only recently getting into the PvP scene

That is why you make kitten posts like this.

Answer to everything you wrote is, no.

swinsk.6410:

McFribble.2349:

Again, I am an entry level player to GW2, only recently getting into the PvP scene

That is why you make kitten posts like this.

Answer to everything you wrote is, no.

You also missed the part where I said, " I am NOT a massively experienced player, and I am fine to admit that unlike 99% of this board."

I can’t agree with a lot of what I see here.

4s Stealth: I haven’t played the thief long, and when I started playing it the 4s change was already in place. But having the 3s reveal now I can see why people wanted it changed back because the class is far more fluid now. I would argue that if the 3s is here to stay in PvE/WvW then it should be reverted back in sPvP too because it’s simply too difficult getting used to the difference if you play both systems.

Shadow Refuge: Also strongly disagree with you here. I’m of the opinion this class should have legitimate perma stealth as it is. If you’re out of combat, you should be able to channel a long spell (10s for example) to stealth you and you remain stealthed until you’re hit or attack. Stealth loses much of its value when a target sees you stealth 1000yards away and can anticipate your attack.

Healing and Condi Removal: Also strongly disagree with this. Right now the Thief class has almost no mitigation available to it whatsoever. Its only chance at staying alive is avoidance. And since stealth doesn’t drop target properly and all spells in transit still hit, the regen is there to help marginalize this. But healing for the thief class is one of the weakest in the game.

I simply don’t understand why people who think stealth is overpowered keep trying to nerf stealth directly. It’s blatantly obvious that the reason stealth is so powerful for this class is because how often we can use it. We can only use it so often because initiative regen is so high. If you want to balance stealth useage (and conversly nerf healing, condition removal, burst, etc) then the target should be initiative regen.

Keep in mind though that this class is designed very badly. Even minor adjustments to the avoidance spells would require ENORMOUS boosts to mitigation factors and auto-attack damage.

Why? Because this class has such low auto-attack damage because it’s burst is so high. If you drop burst, you need to increase sustained damage to compensate for it because the class can’t stand toe to toe with anyone. If you drop burst by reducing the amount of times a thief can stealth, you then need to adjust for the fact that the thief is visible longer and thus need to increase mitigation since avoidance was reduced.

This class is just too poorly designed I think to try and make any sweeping changes to it. Even just the 4s revealed was too much for the class to cope.

There is no reason a group of competent players can’t kill a single thief. Deny the thief access to stealth and their dead, unfortunately many players just don’t know how to counter it.

Secondly i think thieves should move away from stealth, or at least as their main form of defence. Healing in stealth is a powerful trait, but it also means a thief has to stay in stealth to heal. When they get low they have to leave combat and stay in stealth for as long as possible to heal, meaning they can’t keep pressure on people and also gives the opponent time to recover as well. This also makes for a frustrating experience for the person fighting the thief; no one enjoys fighting an enemy that’s invisible most of the time.

Stealth is an amazing way to avoid damage, but it also means you can’t damage anyone while you’re in it. With really no other way to mitigate incoming damage, this just causes thieves to come out of stealth, deal as much burst damage they can then stealth again. The skill available to the profession simply don’t support another play style.

McFribble.2349:

swinsk.6410:

McFribble.2349:

Again, I am an entry level player to GW2, only recently getting into the PvP scene

That is why you make kitten posts like this.

Answer to everything you wrote is, no.

You also missed the part where I said, " I am NOT a massively experienced player, and I am fine to admit that unlike 99% of this board."

What he meant, and I totally agree with him, was due to your lack of experience and knowledge of the Thief profession, you shouldn’t be posting changes to things you have little experience of or have not have a full knowledge about.

If your post was based on your own personal experience as a Thief and not on what you heard, read, or watched about the profession, then you have more credibility, but you didn’t do that.

Sir Vicents elaboration was correct. I am not in a long response mood as of late.