Guild Wars 2

So with the changes to Sundering Strikes has anyone managed to shoehorn that into a dungeon build? Been playing around with sigils, runes etc. Haven’t quite come up with anything satisfactory just yet myself. Getting there, but it’s getting hard to squeeze out more performance. I would just like to get some high vulnerability in dungeons so I could justify taking my thief over my engy.

I haven’t tried it yet, but it seems lackluster compared to an engi or Axe/Focus power necro (which can self stack up to 25 vulnerability against a single target). I’m not sure it’s worth taking over mug which may save you with the healing.

So far I completely agree with you and even if I manage 25 stacks by myself it probably won’t be worth it. Still going to keep trying in case something comes of it though.

Yes!-

Since the change I have slotted sundering strikes for all my dungeon runs.

If you have an engineer he will be better able to stack up vulnerability, but most of the time I don’t have an engineer in my group stacking vuln.

I would suggest using it. I have even gotten compliments from a warrior in my group who asked

Q: Where are the extra vulnerability stacks coming from.
A: Sundering Strikes + Skale Venom

You’re better off with Corrosive Traps (5stacks/trap @ 8s-10s) than taking Sundering Strikes (50% on crit = 1 stack @ 6s-8s) — that’s how horrible it is.

Sundering Strikes is indeed pretty solid now, and you’ll also want to take a look at Critical Haste and Practiced Tolerance. The patch on Dec 10th gave CS-heavy Thieves a few more advantages for having some Precision.

Whether you can stomach the trade-off is another thing entirely, but it’s a perfectly legitimate way to get some Vulnerability into a group with your Thief.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You’re better off with Corrosive Traps (5stacks/trap @ 8s-10s) than taking Sundering Strikes (50% on crit = 1 stack @ 6s-8s) — that’s how horrible it is.

I consider this post to be of no value based on the accepted view that thief traps are a waste of a utility slot. I have seen two traps used in PvE

1. Ambush Trap for DPS (Better options are available)
2. Shadow Trap for Solo bomb running in the Dredge Fractal

I would advise the OP to not consider corrosive traps.

When I am in PvE I have 100% Crit Chance and the Vulnerability from this trait far surpasses Corrosive Traps in terms of group utility.

In case you were curious about the skale Venom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skale_Venom_

There is a quest chain you have to do to unlock the merchant but it’s short and worth it.

It’s a fair amount of vulnerability stacking in a potential AoE spread. Any group comp can get 25 Might fairly easily – constant maintenance of 25 Vuln on multiple targets is a little more iffy so every little helps. It’s far better than Mug could ever be for an organised run.

Basically, if you’re not taking it, you absolutely should be. It doesn’t matter if an Engineer can stack more – Thief has better potential DPS and there are 5 members of a team. One person doesn’t have to be responsible for all the Vulnerability stacking. You’re all supposed to contribute in that regard if possible.

The Engineer Build I was mentioning earlier that would be an exception to Auesis’s statement about sharing the burden of vulnerability stacking. This lone soldier will do it all by himself. This is what I had in mind in the above post I made in bold.

Engineer Discussion starts at 26:05
http://www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt/b/486704366

It is rare you will party with an engineer esp one designed to fill this role, however I find it worth mentioning.

OIIIIIO.7825:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You’re better off with Corrosive Traps (5stacks/trap @ 8s-10s) than taking Sundering Strikes (50% on crit = 1 stack @ 6s-8s) — that’s how horrible it is.

I consider this post to be of no value based on the accepted view that thief traps are a waste of a utility slot. I have seen two traps used in PvE

1. Ambush Trap for DPS (Better options are available)
2. Shadow Trap for Solo bomb running in the Dredge Fractal

I would advise the OP to not consider corrosive traps.

I see why you think that way, but I wasn’t advising the OP to take Corrosive Traps — I’m merely using it as comparison.

Traps are waste of utility slots, as you said, but if Corrosive Traps stacks better vulnerability and have better duration than Sundering Strikes, that makes Sundering Strikes worst than a waste of utility slots.

The only real viable trait for 10DA is Mug — others are build specific.

When I am in PvE I have 100% Crit Chance and the Vulnerability from this trait far surpasses Corrosive Traps in terms of group utility.

Unless you build heavy on condition duration, you’re lucky if you can stack more than 5 stacks of vulnerability.

The pre-Dec10 update was perfect with 33% chance and 10s duration.

In case you were curious about the skale Venom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skale_Venom_

There is a quest chain you have to do to unlock the merchant but it’s short and worth it.

I like Skale Venom and that’s how vulnerability is suppose to be, to have long base duration.

this is best against bosses but the thing is….. bosses are at 20-25% all the time anywya bc of teammate attacks. just not worth bringing.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The pre-Dec10 update was perfect with 33% chance and 10s duration.

Perfectly pointless to spec in, maybe. The 1s ICD killed the trait. What’s the purpose of a slow burn of Vulnerability stacks?

The new version at least allows you to get a lot of stacks out there quickly, which gives you something useful to do with it. SS is very good with Pistol Whip builds that have high crit chance; not just for the hit density, but also the cleave.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The pre-Dec10 update was perfect with 33% chance and 10s duration.

Perfectly pointless to spec in, maybe. The 1s ICD killed the trait. What’s the purpose of a slow burn of Vulnerability stacks?

The new version at least allows you to get a lot of stacks out there quickly, which gives you something useful to do with it. SS is very good with Pistol Whip builds that have high crit chance; not just for the hit density, but also the cleave.

The difference is the base 10s duration that you can stretch longer with condition duration. It simply scales better even with the 1s ICD, which is negligible having 100% crit chance.

The current 6s base duration scales horribly even with condition duration items.

The 50% chance and the removal of ICD is nice, but 6s is just too low. 8s would have been reasonable.

Sundering strikes with no ICD and affects any mobs you can hit on is a great trait.
You can maintain a consistent 3-4 stacks of vulnerability if you’re using anything but shortbow (and have 30 in Critical Strikes). How long it lasts is irrelevant since you’ll still be constantly hitting the enemy. Basically that spells out to 3-4% damage increase for the entire party on whatever you’re targeting. I say it’s pretty good.

Also traps sucks.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The pre-Dec10 update was perfect with 33% chance and 10s duration.

Perfectly pointless to spec in, maybe. The 1s ICD killed the trait. What’s the purpose of a slow burn of Vulnerability stacks?

The new version at least allows you to get a lot of stacks out there quickly, which gives you something useful to do with it. SS is very good with Pistol Whip builds that have high crit chance; not just for the hit density, but also the cleave.

The difference is the base 10s duration that you can stretch longer with condition duration. It simply scales better even with the 1s ICD, which is negligible having 100% crit chance.

The current 6s base duration scales horribly even with condition duration items.

The 50% chance and the removal of ICD is nice, but 6s is just too low. 8s would have been reasonable.

Are you forgetting that the removal of the ICD allows an AoE spread of the condition? That’s why the Warrior version (which is 33% chance and 7s duration) is always taken.

A couple of seconds of 1 or 2 extra stacks on a single target pales in comparison to a few Pistol Whips when stacked.

I say its worth in a build where you constantly attack your foes. More hits more chances to spam. As others mentioned Pistil Whip, Ricochet pistols and short bow aoe attacks but even dagger auto attacks can spam nice stacks. Pistol Whip used with Signet of Malice outheals Withdraw and Mug together so you can bring Sundering Strikes for some extra dps. The vulnerability duration is still meh, but outside a dungeon i say its easy to get 10 stacks.
Also the 25 points trait in Deadly Arts gives you 10% more dmg when vuln is up.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The difference is the base 10s duration that you can stretch longer with condition duration. It simply scales better even with the 1s ICD, which is negligible having 100% crit chance.

I didn’t ask what the difference was, I asked what the purpose was. Vulnerability has no secondary effects; it just increases direct damage. You want to get as many stacks as quickly as possible, because time spending build stacks is time when direct damage isn’t being amplified. A perfect snowflake situation with long-lasting Vuln stacks isn’t very useful when the mob is dead by the time you actually get there.

The old style SS was crippled by the ICD. That meant no cleave bonuses, and the low 33% proc rate even meant that 100% crit rate couldn’t even guarantee you’d activate the trait inside the window. At least now, when I slot SS and push S/P #3 with a high crit rate, my party can get a good 4-5 stacks for several seconds. It’s even burstable up to double digit stacks for short timeframes.

Sure, it’d be better if it was 8s instead of 6s, but that’s not on the table. Strictly comparing the old version to the new one, the rework is considerably better overall, to the point where reasonable people are actually using it. It’s nice that Deadly Arts now has more than one or two viable Adept traits.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The difference is the base 10s duration that you can stretch longer with condition duration. It simply scales better even with the 1s ICD, which is negligible having 100% crit chance.

I didn’t ask what the difference was, I asked what the purpose was. Vulnerability has no secondary effects; it just increases direct damage. You want to get as many stacks as quickly as possible, because time spending build stacks is time when direct damage isn’t being amplified. A perfect snowflake situation with long-lasting Vuln stacks isn’t very useful when the mob is dead by the time you actually get there.

Here we go again. Just because you don’t know the purpose doesn’t make “long-lasting Vuln stacks isn’t very useful.”

Even one stack of a long-lasting condition is useful — I’ll leave you to figure that out.

The old style SS was crippled by the ICD. That meant no cleave bonuses, and the low 33% proc rate even meant that 100% crit rate couldn’t even guarantee you’d activate the trait inside the window.

The ICD was never an issue but I agree that it’s even better without it. 33% proc rate is never an issue either, and again, I agree that it’s even better with 50%.

You see that window it too short to capitalize on the damage bonus granted by Vulnerability. I’d rather have someone else apply the Vulnerability than spec-ing for Sundering Strikes myself.

At least now, when I slot SS and push S/P #3 with a high crit rate, my party can get a good 4-5 stacks for several seconds. It’s even burstable up to double digit stacks for short timeframes.

If you’re in a party, there are other professions that can apply it with better duration.

Sure, it’d be better if it was 8s instead of 6s, but that’s not on the table. Strictly comparing the old version to the new one, the rework is considerably better overall, to the point where reasonable people are actually using it. It’s nice that Deadly Arts now has more than one or two viable Adept traits.

Look at it this way, against a Champion with Unshakable buff, that 6s is only 3s — you can’t even take advantage of that ridiculous short window.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Here we go again. Just because you don’t know the purpose doesn’t make “long-lasting Vuln stacks isn’t very useful.” […] Even one stack of a long-lasting condition is useful — I’ll leave you to figure that out.

I asked you a direct question. You can either 1) answer it, or 2) refuse to answer it. There is no acceptable third option. Please either make your case, or stop wasting everyone’s time.

The ICD was never an issue

This is not a defensible point. It’s an issue when two activations can’t happen in the same 1s window, because now an activation is wasted. It’s an issue when you can’t cleave stacks into multiple targets, because duh.

You see that window it too short to capitalize on the damage bonus granted by Vulnerability.

Nope. Plenty of time to push buttons and hit damages. There are no restrictions on this condition: if it’s active, you get the benefits.

If you’re in a party, there are other professions that can apply it with better duration.

Not necessarily, and not without potential trade-offs in another area. Sundering Strikes does not need to be the optimal trait in an fantasy party configuration to be in the conversation for an actual player choosing to use it in a real life situation. That’s what this thread is about, remember.

Look at it this way, against a Champion with Unshakable buff, that 6s is only 3s — you can’t even take advantage of that ridiculous short window.

Maybe you can’t, but in my estimation that’s a personal problem.

What thief is ever going to have 6s/3s on Vulnerability, anyway? It’s not even possible, since you need to spec 10 DA to get SS in the first place, and 25 DA is pretty strong in general.

Too much dishonesty, it’s mind boggling.

Didn’t take Miss Cleo to see that this one would end the same way as all the others: someone challenges your viewpoint, but instead of defending it or responding to valid rebuttals, you just dance the dinosaur.

Sundering Strikes went from something that was not really worth an Adept slot, to something that’s actually defensible as a pick over Mug. That’s the reality that we exist in.

Defensible? You said that you can stack Vul 4-5 stacks but when I told you that the duration is crap against Unshakable mob, you go on ad hom mode by saying it’s a personal problem. lol.

You don’t even see how dishonest you are, I’m just being kind to even discuss something with you.

EDIT: In addition, everyone knows that 3s duration in practice is really only 1s due to lag and skill pre-cast/after cast delay.

I don’t see what all the controversy is with this trait.

If your group is stacking 25 stacks of vuln, then swap out Sundering Strikes for Mug on boss fights. On trash fights, I can’t think of a reason to not take this trait, particularly since it works so well with S/P.

Dahkeus.8243:

I don’t see what all the controversy is with this trait.

If your group is stacking 25 stacks of vuln, then swap out Sundering Strikes for Mug on boss fights. On trash fights, I can’t think of a reason to not take this trait, particularly since it works so well with S/P.

I think I may just try sword pistol/shortbow again with it now so I can drop ricochet which was eating trait points. Used to rather enjoy sword/pistol in dungeons.

Dahkeus.8243:

I don’t see what all the controversy is with this trait.

If your group is stacking 25 stacks of vuln, then swap out Sundering Strikes for Mug on boss fights. On trash fights, I can’t think of a reason to not take this trait, particularly since it works so well with S/P.

If your group is already stacking 25, that’s more than enough reason for you not to take Sundering Strikes even for trash regardless if it works well with S/P. Your group can already do it without your SS — that’s how useless this trait is.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Defensible? You said that you can stack Vul 4-5 stacks but when I told you that the duration is crap against Unshakable mob, you go on ad hom mode by saying it’s a personal problem. lol.

It is a personal problem. There are four other people in your party that can benefit from your burst of vulnerability stacks, and any S/P Thief with a pulse can either 1) fit in an autoattack chain or 2) keep spamming PW to augment damage and keep putting on stacks.

What is constraining about a 3+ second window? Are the rest of your DPS off in a corner picking their noses?

You don’t even see how dishonest you are, I’m just being kind to even discuss something with you.

I agree that it’s kind of you to keep discrediting yourself by picking losing fights with me.

EDIT: In addition, everyone knows that 3s duration in practice is really only 1s due to lag and skill pre-cast/after cast delay.

Spoiler alert, the rest of your party isn’t subject to your pre/aftercasts.

The dishonesty. It really is astounding.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Dahkeus.8243:

I don’t see what all the controversy is with this trait.

If your group is stacking 25 stacks of vuln, then swap out Sundering Strikes for Mug on boss fights. On trash fights, I can’t think of a reason to not take this trait, particularly since it works so well with S/P.

If your group is already stacking 25, that’s more than enough reason for you not to take Sundering Strikes even for trash regardless if it works well with S/P. Your group can already do it without your SS — that’s how useless this trait is.

Ok, I guess what I said wasn’t explicit enough for you to understand, so let me break it down:

Realistically, in my experience, few groups that can stack 25 vuln on boss fights can also do that in AoE encounters and can stack it fast enough to hit cap before the mob dies. However, if you are in such a group, then of course you don’t need this trait and might as well bring Mug instead.

No one here is arguing to take a trait that applies vulnerability if you are in a situation where the vulnerability cap is preventing you from applying additional stacks. No one.

If you are in a situation where you are not prohibited by the stack cap, then this skill can potentially be a greater dps boost than taking Mug. If you want to argue this point, then please do so with some math. Otherwise, nit picking misinterpretations and fighting against obvious points that no one is making does nothing productive to this thread.

You don’t like the trait and that’s fine. Feel free to grimace at it and give it ugly looks all you want, but if you’re going to argue against it, do so in a manner that acknowledges that traits can be swapped out at any time when out of combat. Treating it like some big investment that you can’t undo is just silly.

Dahkeus.8243:

If you are in a situation where you are not prohibited by the stack cap, then this skill can potentially be a greater dps boost than taking Mug. If you want to argue this point, then please do so with some math. Otherwise, nit picking misinterpretations and fighting against obvious points that no one is making does nothing productive to this thread.

Like how you use “potentially be greater dps boost” instead of showing the math? You made that claim, you have to prove it.

What I stated that I’m against in this thread is the horrible duration, that your “potential” greater dps will never even happen because before you can even have the chance to capitalize on the stacks, it would be close to falling off, if not already.

This is the controversy here: Why bother making it 50% without ICD only to reduce the duration from 10s to 6s? — that the only weapon set being hailed to benefit from this is S/P?

You don’t like the trait and that’s fine. Feel free to grimace at it and give it ugly looks all you want, but if you’re going to argue against it, do so in a manner that acknowledges that traits can be swapped out at any time when out of combat. Treating it like some big investment that you can’t undo is just silly.

Sure you can swap the traits, but you have never given a good reason why? S/P without this trait (or leave it blank) can rip through trash mobs just fine.

I think that’s your long, drawn out way of saying that “I don’t think that SS is a DPS gain in any situation.”

Vuln is a 1% damage boost against a target for each stack. Step into the Mists and even in PvP gear where you’re only getting about 75%ish crit max (zerker gear, combo crit chance, side strike, etc.), you can keep up around 7 stacks of vuln and can hit upwards of 20 if you burn through ini on Pistol Whip. In PvE, you can hit 100% crit rate when you consider PvE gear’s difference along with getting the 20% crit from fury….but I’m playing a conservative estimate to please you.

Let’s assume you have a group where each person does 6,000 DPS. Not a perfect group by any standards since many classes/builds can hit 10,000 DPS, but I’m playing a conservative estimate to please you.

Over 30 seconds, these 5 people will deal 900,000 damage. Assuming you’re just keeping up a steady 7 stacks, that’s a 63,000 damage boost to your group over 30 seconds.

On the other hand, you could take Mug, which will deal maybe 2k damage on a 30.5 sec cooldown.

Groups damage improved by 63,000 vs 2,000 personal damage gain every 30 seconds.

So yea, I think it’s worth it.

mug is crucial for staying over 90% for scholars on small damage you can’t bother to dodge. And 10% from scholar is a freaking lot of damage

Ichishi.9613:

mug is crucial for staying over 90% for scholars on small damage you can’t bother to dodge. And 10% from scholar is a freaking lot of damage

Such selfishness in this thread.

For you, sure. For the party? Not really. Even if you are doing a quarter of the party’s DPS (more than your fair share), 100% Scholar downtime only represents 2.5% of the total lost by falling underneath. Sundering Strikes could easily cover for the gap, since it benefits five people instead of one.

Never mind that your party members (like the local Guardian) are helping you take care of incidental damage, too. It’s not like you’ll never have the Scholar’s benefit ever; surely you have it part of the time.

I put 25 in Deadly Arts, and have access to both Mug and Sundering strikes, best of both worlds. The only real other trait that can be taken when you put 25 in Deadly Arts would be the dagger damage increase. Considering that you often have to switch weapons depending on the context of dungeons, sundering strikes is a general trait that benefits the entire party. You may compare it to the traps trait, but that forces you to use up an utility slot on perhaps the most useless skills for thieves.

There’s absolutely no reason not to take it. I’m not going to look up and try to debate it out with Vincent, he seems bent on assuming he’s right. For the other thieves that is open-minded, 25/30/x/x/x is a very versatile build for dungeons and sundering strikes had become a worthy trait to take.

@Tachii.3506 Let me convince you to take take Sundering Strikes and Dagger Training.

We know sundering strikes adds a nice boost to DPS esp on trash mobs where you can apply it on multiple targets.

Mug I would suggest away from because in PvE it’s a small boost of DPS and a small boost for survival on a medium cooldown. You don’t need the survival boost and the dps boost is smaller than what Dagger Training provides.

Vs

Dagger Training. When fighting bosses you will be in my D/D. The 5% damage buff for the duration of the boss fight would enable you to deal more damage than triggering mug on cooldown.

Just my thoughts. I also use SoM so maintaining the Scholar Rune damage boost is very easy. – Cheers!

Dahkeus.8243:

I think that’s your long, drawn out way of saying that “I don’t think that SS is a DPS gain in any situation.”

Vuln is a 1% damage boost against a target for each stack. Step into the Mists and even in PvP gear where you’re only getting about 75%ish crit max (zerker gear, combo crit chance, side strike, etc.), you can keep up around 7 stacks of vuln and can hit upwards of 20 if you burn through ini on Pistol Whip. In PvE, you can hit 100% crit rate when you consider PvE gear’s difference along with getting the 20% crit from fury….but I’m playing a conservative estimate to please you.

Let’s assume you have a group where each person does 6,000 DPS. Not a perfect group by any standards since many classes/builds can hit 10,000 DPS, but I’m playing a conservative estimate to please you.

Over 30 seconds, these 5 people will deal 900,000 damage. Assuming you’re just keeping up a steady 7 stacks, that’s a 63,000 damage boost to your group over 30 seconds.

On the other hand, you could take Mug, which will deal maybe 2k damage on a 30.5 sec cooldown.

Groups damage improved by 63,000 vs 2,000 personal damage gain every 30 seconds.

So yea, I think it’s worth it.

This is what I would consider a valid argument for taking it (if the group couldn’t hit max stacks without you). My original thoughts were that it was not worth bringing the thief for this trait if the OP had to option of bringing his engi which can stack it better. AoE bombs & nades vs. Cleaving PW.

I keep more than enough stacks from CnD.
And trash dies too fast to bother.

And show me a place and people where you can dps boss for 30 secs straight with 6k dps.
Personal gain in this game weights much more unless you can specialize on party gain.

OIIIIIO.7825:

@Tachii.3506 Let me convince you to take take Sundering Strikes and Dagger Training.

We know sundering strikes adds a nice boost to DPS esp on trash mobs where you can apply it on multiple targets.

Mug I would suggest away from because in PvE it’s a small boost of DPS and a small boost for survival on a medium cooldown. You don’t need the survival boost and the dps boost is smaller than what Dagger Training provides.

Vs

Dagger Training. When fighting bosses you will be in my D/D. The 5% damage buff for the duration of the boss fight would enable you to deal more damage than triggering mug on cooldown.

Just my thoughts. I also use SoM so maintaining the Scholar Rune damage boost is very easy. – Cheers!

What’s SoM? Acronym escapes me atm.

I do agree I actually don’t like Mug that much. Unless I go 25/30/0/015 but I enjoy the 15 in acrobatics more atm.

Ichishi.9613:

I keep more than enough stacks from CnD.
And trash dies too fast to bother.

And show me a place and people where you can dps boss for 30 secs straight with 6k dps.
Personal gain in this game weights much more unless you can specialize on party gain.

… while keeping 7 stacks of Vuln for 30s using PW considering that PW costs 5 init on use and the Thief only have 12 (base) init bar.

Elementalist can stack 4 stacks of AoE vulnerability every 3s that last for 15s (base) with 100% chance of application. They even have the potential of single-handedly maintain 25 stacks when traited for CD reduction and condition duration.

As a Thief, you’re better off traiting for Mug and capitalize with that large stack of vulnerability from your Ele friend.

It clearly shows that some Thief just lose sight on what the profession is all about.

And if you follow their logic, you shouldn’t take Executioner (or Hidden Killer) either because it’s such a “selfish” trait. Think of the party!

At this rate, SS will never get rebalanced.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

… while keeping 7 stacks of Vuln for 30s using PW considering that PW costs 5 init on use and the Thief only have 12 (base) init bar.

So, is Mug now losing 10-to-1 instead of 30-to-1? His example had a gigantic margin of victory, you know.

And if you follow their logic, you shouldn’t take Executioner (or Hidden Killer) either because it’s such a “selfish” trait. Think of the party!

Which just goes to show that you don’t understand the logic at all. Sundering Strikes sits opposed to Mug in the Adept slot. What party-friendly Grandmaster trait in CS is a Thief missing out on if they take Executioner or HK?

Interceptor.2653:

Which just goes to show that you don’t understand the logic at all. Sundering Strikes sits opposed to Mug in the Adept slot. What party-friendly Grandmaster trait in CS is a Thief missing out on if they take Executioner or HK?

THE SHOCKING ANSWER

hide spoiler

There isn’t one.

I guess it’s news to you that you don’t have to take a GM trait in the GM slot…oh wait, forgot the spoiler…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I guess it’s news to you that you don’t have to take a GM trait in the GM slot…oh wait, forgot the spoiler…

You guess wrong, then. But please continue this line of thought to its logical conclusion: what “party-friendly” trait are you slotting into GM Critical Strikes in place of Executioner or Hidden Killer?

I can’t wait to hear this.

Tachii.3506:

What’s SoM? Acronym escapes me atm.

Signet of Malice

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Malice

SoM + The multi hits of PW will keep you at full health.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I guess it’s news to you that you don’t have to take a GM trait in the GM slot…oh wait, forgot the spoiler…

You guess wrong, then. But please continue this line of thought to its logical conclusion: what “party-friendly” trait are you slotting into GM Critical Strikes in place of Executioner or Hidden Killer?

I can’t wait to hear this.

Your logic and reason shuns the whole trait line — heck the whole Thief profession.

What you call a “party-friendly” trait is garbage compare to other profession’s (i.e Elementalist) ability to stack vulnerability — from their weapon skills. There’s no need for a Thief to build “party-friendly” because the best use of their skills and traits is to focus on dealing as much damage as possible while taking advantage of their party member’s stacking conditions.

But sure, ignore that fact and remain dishonest — Sundering Strike is good for the party after all, right? And to make it look even better is not to invite Ele or Eng to the party so that SS can shine.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Your logic and reason shuns the whole trait line — heck the whole Thief profession.

This just underscores the fact that you just don’t understand the logic at all, despite your claims to the contrary. Sundering Strikes can at least be shown to give an overall better result than Mug in a party where the Thief is providing some of the Vulnerability stacks. In what universe does this swap mean that a Thief shouldn’t take Executioner? I am not putting words in your mouth, this was literally your interpretation of the logic.

You frankly just don’t get it.

There’s no need for a Thief to build “party-friendly” […]

Except when there is! How often do perfect party comps happen? What if there are no dedicated sources of Vulnerability available? Thief is now able to provide some medium-weight Vulnerability to their party, which emphatically was not the case with the old, busted trait that was hamstrung by an ICD. This is a strategic option that did not exist before for Thief. It’s gravy: nice if you can use it, not a big deal if you can’t.

Like people have been trying to point out to you, it’s perfectly legitimate to slot something else if you find yourself not in need of SS.

Put down the shovel and stop digging.

There’s some really bad logic going on here.

It doesn’t matter which class is best or better at stacking vuln.

Vuln is a 1% damage increase for all 5 members of a party. As long as you’re not going against a boss that has 25 stacks already, then one, single application of vuln is still a strong contribution to a group.

Let’s look at the math for 1 single vuln stack. I’ll throw you a bone and assume that you’re group can’t even do 6k dps per person. Let’s assume a 5k dps group (to give you some perspective, a zerker hammer guard with a good build can hit over 9k theoretical dps with autoattack alone).

So, 5,000 damage per second * 5 players = 25,000 damage per second

25,000 damage per second * 30 seconds = 750,000 damage

1% of 750,000 damage = 7,500 damage.

If you can maintain 1 stack of vuln by yourself in 30 seconds, you will more than double (almost triple) the damage from the Mug you can pull off every 30.5 seconds if you use it exactly on cooldown.

So it doesn’t matter how much vuln any other class can stack. The only thing that matters is if your target is fully capped with vulnerability before your contribution.

If you’re in a group and you have an ele that’s specced completely towards upkeeping vuln and there’s still room for 1 extra vuln stack for you to contribute (besides what you my already have from CnD), then it’s better to have SS. If the enemies are stacked with full vuln, then, let me repeat:

No one is arguing that you should take SS if your group already has 25 stacks fully maintained

That’s blindly assuming that no one else in the group can stack vulnerability.

If all I can maintain is 1-stack, it’s still more reasonable to take Mug because someone in the party will be out stacking me and the extra damage I get for using mug with their vulnerability stack over shadows the need for SS.

That’s the point, someone else will be doing it better and you’re better off taking advantage of it by choosing damage.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s blindly assuming that no one else in the group can stack vulnerability.

If all I can maintain is 1-stack, it’s still more reasonable to take Mug because someone in the party will be out stacking me and the extra damage I get for using mug with their vulnerability stack over shadows the need for SS.

That’s the point, someone else will be doing it better and you’re better off taking advantage of it by choosing damage.

Um, he just said that 1 stack of Vulnerability will result in the net damage gain for the group surpassing Mug, therefore disproving the notion that you can capitalise on sub-25 Vulnerability with Mug and somehow get more damage than using SS. That simply isn’t true.

I don’t know if you’re being stubborn just to be annoying, but I don’t even get your point anymore. If the group gets 25 stacks without you, don’t take SS and use Mug to capitalise on the maximised stacks. If the group doesn’t, take SS and end up with more group DPS contribution than Mug. It doesn’t matter if others are better at applying Vulnerability. The more the merrier UNTIL the cap is reached.

Really, I don’t think this is a difficult concept.

I’ll say again. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO IS APPLYING VULNERABILITY, AND IT DOESN’T MATTER IF OTHERS ARE BETTER AT IT THAN YOU, AS LONG AS THE CAP IS REACHED.

It doesn’t even matter if someone is better at stacking vulnerability than you do. As long as the target doesn’t have 25 stacks of vulnerability, the trait helps maximizing DPS for the entire party.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s blindly assuming that no one else in the group can stack vulnerability.

If all I can maintain is 1-stack, it’s still more reasonable to take Mug because someone in the party will be out stacking me and the extra damage I get for using mug with their vulnerability stack over shadows the need for SS.

That’s the point, someone else will be doing it better and you’re better off taking advantage of it by choosing damage.

It doesn’t matter who stacks more vuln. As long as the target doesn’t get capped, a stack of vuln does 1% dps increase for all 5 party members, whether the target has 0 stacks or 24 stacks already.

Compare that 1% DPS for 5 people to Mug, which at best is around 2k damage. If you’re doing great and putting out 10,000 DPS, then mug is a .07% DPS increase for you alone. If you’re doing terrible and are only outputting 5,000 DPS, it’s still only a 1.3% DPS increase.

Considering that you’ll realistically upkeep much more than 1 stack of vuln in most situations, it’s clear that SS > Mug.