Guild Wars 2

JonPeters.5630:

Thief:
…
Also we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line through easier access to the Hard to Catch trait and increased effectiveness of the Assassin’s Reward trait.
…

Unfortunately, it appears to me that these efforts did not have their intended effect.
Some observations and a question to the Devs.

Hard to catch
This trait is basically a handicap in trait form. Being moved in a random direction, for a random distance when hit with a CC, Even if you have stability, and most importantly at the whim of another player, does not increase survivability. It’s disorienting, can force you off points, and doesn’t even clear the control effect. The range as well is much too short to be useful – being moved a maximum of 600 away from the target that CC’d you does almost nothing . Any melee class can close that gap in a second, and every non-thief has access to 1200 range (or better) weapons. Generally in most MMO’s, being moved by an effect you don’t initiate or control would be considered a CC effect, not anything positive.
How did Anet envision this increasing thief survivability?

Assassin’s Reward
This change has 2 problems.

• It’s a change in healing power scaling.
  What thief has room in their build for healing power? Perhaps a Venom share build dedicated to healing their teammates and doing almost no damage themselves might find use in stacking high healing power, but Venom share doesn’t have 30 points for the acro line anyway, so it’s a moot point.

• 35% more healing power scaling equates to 1 additional point of health healed per init spent for every 100 healing power you have, when compared to pre Dec 10th AR.
  How did this math justify a bump from Master to Grand master? The trait wasn’t a “good trait” when it was in the Master tier, and the buff is essentially non existent. How could someone crunch the numbers, see what an extremely minor effect that this change was going to have, and still push it through as a buff?

Could someone from Anet come and have a discussion with us, concerning how we are supposed to use these acrobatics changes to increase our survivability? Failing that (I honestly can’t think of an argument that would sway me into beleiving these changes increased survivability), could we discuss how to change/improve them in the next patch so that thief has some options for survivability via the Acrobatics traitline, as you intended?

Excellent post, agreed.

what i imagine anet would say:

“sword thieves get hit more because of vigor and sword-#2 nerfs, therefore, hard to catch becomes more appealing.”

Yeah, these changes are poor, completely arbitrary and lack any cohesive sense or vision for the class as a whole.

But that’s how I feel about most changes ANet makes.

“Oh hey, we decided this was a big issue (something nobody had previously complained about) and made the following arbitrary changes to address it…”

And then the changes are poorly conceived and often poorly implemented as well (see Infiltrator’s Return).

Maybe we expect too much. Maybe the amount of thought and iteration Blizzard puts into every class change has spoiled us. Maybe it’s unfair to expect the same amount of quality from ANet?

I don’t know, but honestly I believe that any good and reputable Thief player could have made more effective and elegant changes to the class to address whatever needed fixing.

evilapprentice.6379:

JonPeters.5630:

Thief:
…
Also we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line through easier access to the Hard to Catch trait and increased effectiveness of the Assassin’s Reward trait.
…

This is exactly right, Neither change increased survivability for thief at all. It only requires us to now spend 10 more points for a trait that receives ZERO additional benefit to builds without healing power (or even builds with healing power for that matter). /regards to Assassin’s Reward
and Hard to Catch already has 3 other forum posts with dozens of suggestions on how to fix/change/or delete this trait all together.

So once again, problems are listed. Lets suggest solutions:
Assassin’s Reward: If this is to stay a 30 point trait, then increase the BASE healing by 10-20 points. At level 80 with 0 healing power, this should provide 100 health per point, so spending an untraited 12 initiative would be a 1200 heal.
Regening 1 initiative every second, capping at 12, spending all at once is a 1200 heal every 12 seconds.
Which honestly, compated to an untraited MUG (2k heal every 35 seconds (0 points in trickery), this seems on the same line.

Hard to Catch: Well, we can back track and list all the other suggestions or make some more here.
How about #1 (Hard to Catch: when you Steal, you break stuns)
or #2 (Hard to Catch: When effected by a stun/daze/knock/fear/sink/float, immediately break stun, grant 3 seconds of stability (30 second internal cool down)

Dee Jay.2460:

Maybe we expect too much. Maybe the amount of thought and iteration Blizzard puts into every class change has spoiled us. Maybe it’s unfair to expect the same amount of quality from ANet?

.

Wow. Are you serious? Like, really? For reals? 100%? Just amazing. I don’t think WoW has EVER had a balanced pvp.

I agree with most of the recent thief changes sucking tho. I just hope they realize it and listen to some of the constructive feedback good thieves keep on giving.

evilapprentice.6379:

…mathematically insignificant.

Thus the emphasis on small. you’re right though, it might as well not exist, especially considering how worthless HealPow is.

ar is great, but it sure in the heck isnt a grand master trait. ive tried tons and tons of builds just to try and keep this trait. still testing i think i found one…

<— im a SoM user rarely do i ingage in stealth i think mesmers, and engis i come across stealth more then i do, which is very epically sad. LOL

Already made a post on the change to AR.
To recap,
Only build i can think of that stacks any healing power would be venomshare, which already requires 60 points to optimize. Taking points out of deadly arts to put into acrobatics instead, would equate to about +700hp/min compared to full venomshare at the sacrifice of about 6k HP to allies/min.
HtC is trash.

edit: link incase you want to read it.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Acrobatics-changes-make-no-sense/first#post3355225

So far from what I’ve read if they wanted to “maintain” our survivability, they should have kept AR as a Master Trait at least. I don’t think I’d trait so much into Acrobatics unless it’s for Feline Grace, the additional Vitality and perhaps Pain response. You would lose some Raw DPS or Points that could be used in the Trickery line – for Thrill of the Crime.

I haven’t played much; nor have I played since they “balanced” us, so I dread what to think my old S/D build would be like now.

I would like to propose the following change:

Hard to Catch

Renamed to Hard to Understand. Updated trait description to read as follows: We aren’t quite sure what this does, gl & hf!!!!!1!!!

AR was a good master trait, it made me win out in a lot of tight situations, it is not worth 30 points into acrobatics however since you would lose the really imortant stuff in other trait lines.

HtC is a joke, no debatte there needed.

I guess the devs do not like builds that have 20 points in 2 trait lines and 30 in 1 trait line. Just like the balanced build s that spent points in 4 trait lines or even 5 those builds will bit by bit get removed.

I’d be happy with AR if they changed it to increase the base heal, rather than the healing scaling, although I feel badly that people who only specced 20 Acrobatics for it are now shut out.

Hard to Catch is bad, but there’s no need to be so breathless and hyperbolic about it. HtC does actually help occasionally (even when disorienting), the problem is that it 1) “helps” when it shouldn’t, and 2) very often has a bad or neutral result. Pain Response is almost always more useful.

Even still, I have 500 healing power and am healed for 490 each pistol whip. I’d like it to be more for sure, but it has kept me alive in swapping to shortbow and spamming cluster bomb/choking gas for a quick 2k health when I get desperate. I can’t stay in a fight at that point though. It’s either break combat or die, and assassin’s reward only allows for an escape mechanic rather than a sustain mechanic.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Even still, I have 500 healing power and am healed for 490 each pistol whip. I’d like it to be more for sure, but it has kept me alive in swapping to shortbow and spamming cluster bomb/choking gas for a quick 2k health when I get desperate. I can’t stay in a fight at that point though. It’s either break combat or die, and assassin’s reward only allows for an escape mechanic rather than a sustain mechanic.

You really need to combine it with Signet of Malice if you want to use it as a sustain mechanic. With that, now Pistol Whip will give you 1500+ health, and the AOE Shortbow skills can top you off really quickly in a mess.

Simply, hardtocatch is a good idea but worse practise trait, and assasin reward will never get real buffed as Long as you can Combine it with the heal of shadow Rejuvenation ….. bad for all thiefs who dont Play with stealth …… they had to increase the baseheal of single initiative by 100 to get a real buff ….. dreams ……

Yea, SA is the best tree for survival in PvP, if you ask me. =P

Interceptor.2653:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Even still, I have 500 healing power and am healed for 490 each pistol whip. I’d like it to be more for sure, but it has kept me alive in swapping to shortbow and spamming cluster bomb/choking gas for a quick 2k health when I get desperate. I can’t stay in a fight at that point though. It’s either break combat or die, and assassin’s reward only allows for an escape mechanic rather than a sustain mechanic.

You really need to combine it with Signet of Malice if you want to use it as a sustain mechanic. With that, now Pistol Whip will give you 1500+ health, and the AOE Shortbow skills can top you off really quickly in a mess.

Except when you’re running condition removal food when you use a heal, and vigor on heal. I only use SoM in PvE.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Except when you’re running condition removal food when you use a heal, and vigor on heal. I only use SoM in PvE.

Well, build are about choices, as they say. I combine SoM with AR occasionally, and it does work.

Interceptor.2653:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Except when you’re running condition removal food when you use a heal, and vigor on heal. I only use SoM in PvE.

Well, build are about choices, as they say. I combine SoM with AR occasionally, and it does work.

I should have clarified myself. I use SoM in PvE, for soloing camps, and during large group fights. For solo fights and roaming however I take Withdraw, and often swap on the fly depending on the situation. SoM can be VERY powerful, especially when you have enough enemies to proc it, and you would have to be mental not to use it at all when you take the time to put at least 500 healing power into your build.

Interceptor.2653:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Even still, I have 500 healing power and am healed for 490 each pistol whip. I’d like it to be more for sure, but it has kept me alive in swapping to shortbow and spamming cluster bomb/choking gas for a quick 2k health when I get desperate. I can’t stay in a fight at that point though. It’s either break combat or die, and assassin’s reward only allows for an escape mechanic rather than a sustain mechanic.

You really need to combine it with Signet of Malice if you want to use it as a sustain mechanic. With that, now Pistol Whip will give you 1500+ health, and the AOE Shortbow skills can top you off really quickly in a mess.

A Grand master trait should be good enough on its own to merit taking. It shouldn’t just be useful when you take it with 1 specific heal and possibly a certain amount of Healing power. It’s fine for traits and specific abilities to synergize well, and strengthen each other, but if a GM trait isn’t worth taking outside of a specific setup, it’s poorly designed.

The discussion is also centered around the “buff” it received to push it into the GM tier – AR wasn’t awful at master tier, but it wasnt a great trait either. It received a mathematically insignificant buff, and was pushed up a tier as an attempt to increase thief survivability, that’s the issue at hand.

Interceptor.2653:

Hard to Catch is bad, but there’s no need to be so breathless and hyperbolic about it. HtC does actually help occasionally (even when disorienting), the problem is that it 1) “helps” when it shouldn’t, and 2) very often has a bad or neutral result. Pain Response is almost always more useful.

I don’t feel anyone is being hyperbolic. The worst effect a trait should have is a neutral one (unless it’s a risk/reward style trait that offers extreme benefits at the cost potentially extreme negatives, which HtC is not). HtC occasionally helping is awful, considering it’s a trait that’s always supposed to be potentially helpful, and at its worst have no negative effect. The fact that its intention was a survivability buff to counteract all the nerfs thieves received in the Dec 10th patch makes it worse, since the overall effect is easier to kill thieves with no new options for survivability.

I’m one of those who gave ArenaNet the benefit of a doubt and have extensively trying to make HtC and AR to work.

HtC only have one use, anti-stun from PW Thieves and Stun-lock Warriors. While ArenaNet attempts to stop the pigeon-holing into CS15, they instead attempting to pigeon-hole use into Acro 20. HtC not even a stun-breaker.

AR is something that is really really bad no matter how much they make this trait look nice and pretty. The heal you get from this trait is not worth 30 points in Acro. However, if they move this from 30 pt Acro to 30 pt Trickery by switching it with Hastened Replenishment, then having AR wouldn’t be too bad because it synergies with Trickery well.

ArenaNet needs to re-evaluate their balance team, especially the one who is assigned to the Thief profession and bring someone else who really understand the profession. The recent patches is evidence enough that the balance team has no clue concerning the the Thieves.

Interceptor.2653:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Except when you’re running condition removal food when you use a heal, and vigor on heal. I only use SoM in PvE.

Well, build are about choices, as they say. I combine SoM with AR occasionally, and it does work.

I strongly disagree. SoM and AR together doesn’t work. You’re better off using Hide in Shadows with Shadow’s Rejuvenation.

Unlike SoM, AR doesn’t trigger on Caltrops for example. Also unlike SoM that heals you per hit on Unload, during Unload, AR only heals you for 5xHealPwrCoeff (~350 hp) AFTER the Unload — really horrible. Also the fact that Heal Pwr is in SA trait line doesn’t help this trait at all.

evilapprentice.6379:

A Grand master trait should be good enough on its own to merit taking. It shouldn’t just be useful when you take it with 1 specific heal and possibly a certain amount of Healing power.

Goodness gracious:

Interceptor.2653:

I’d be happy with AR if they changed it to increase the base heal, rather than the healing scaling […]

Do you suppose this means that I am satisfied with AR as-is?

I don’t feel anyone is being hyperbolic.

Of course you don’t.

HtC occasionally helping is awful […]

Nobody said it was good. It is, however, important to note that it’s not across-the-board horrible, as in “every situation is negative”. Overall it’s definitely bad, even when demoted to Master. I never take it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I strongly disagree. SoM and AR together doesn’t work.

Yes they do. It’s not subject to your approval. SoM’s healing and AR don’t over-write, cancel each other, or whatever. AR is just another source of healing you can combine with Blood sigils, food, etc.

You’re better off using Hide in Shadows with Shadow’s Rejuvenation.

Perhaps, but nobody ever said it was better than Shadow’s Rejuv, never mind that SR is isn’t even in Acrobatics.

For Assassin’s Reward, a buff of 35% to BASE healing would have made it a GM tier skill.

The current buff (based on +healing points) is of no benefit to any thief. It would have a buff of like 350% for it to be a 30 point trait and even then I would be disappointed.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I strongly disagree. SoM and AR together doesn’t work.

Yes they do. It’s not subject to your approval. SoM’s healing and AR don’t over-write, cancel each other, or whatever. AR is just another source of healing you can combine with Blood sigils, food, etc.

Of course it is subject to my approval — I’m the one going to use it.

Any healing, especially AR, scales with Healing Power — and healing power is not in the Acro trait line, unfortunately, thus these duo suffers greatly unless you trait SA also — which if you do, you’ll never deal any damage.

You’re better off using Hide in Shadows with Shadow’s Rejuvenation.

Perhaps, but nobody ever said it was better than Shadow’s Rejuv, never mind that SR is isn’t even in Acrobatics.

Yes nobody, but you’re trying to make a case that AR is worth spending 30pts on which is untrue. Yes SR is a healing trait on the healing trait line — AR is a healing trait on a boon duration trait line.

You see the problem now?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Of course it is subject to my approval

It is not. SoM and AR working together is a fact; it’s not a matter for discussion. You may as well have said that Caltrops doesn’t apply bleeds, for all the sense that made. It’s fine if you choose not to combine them, but that’s a separate thing entirely from whether they “work” together or not.

you’re trying to make a case that AR is worth spending 30pts on […]

Where? Find it. When you return in shameful failure, because I didn’t actually do that (make a case for AR being worth 30 points), maybe we can get back on topic.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Of course it is subject to my approval

It is not. SoM and AR working together is a fact; it’s not a matter for discussion. You may as well have said that Caltrops doesn’t apply bleeds, for all the sense that made. It’s fine if you choose not to combine them, but that’s a separate thing entirely from whether they “work” together or not.

Then explain to me how putting 30pts into Acro “working together” with SoM when it benefits more if that 30pts is spent in SA?

Your definition of “working together” is all messed up — and no it’s not a fact, it’s a fiction you invented that you’re trying to make us believe.

you’re trying to make a case that AR is worth spending 30pts on […]

Where? Find it. When you return in shameful failure, because I didn’t actually do that (make a case for AR being worth 30 points), maybe we can get back on topic.

I guess saying this doesn’t advocate spending 30pts into Acro worth it;

Interceptor.2653:

Well, build are about choices, as they say. I combine SoM with AR occasionally, and it does work.

Yup, you’re not making that case at all. /sarcasm

I’d prefer if this didn’t turn into a discussion about how everyone feels about AR and HtC, how they could be fixed, how they’re not that bad, how they work if you only take all these skills and other traits, etc etc etc – there are plenty of threads tackling that issue.

The intent of this thread is to hopefully have Anet come and explain to use their future plan for HtC and AR – even those of you who feel they’re OK skills seem to agree they did not achieve the survivability buff to thieves the developers intended them to, and I’d like to discuss fixing them for the next patch.

Thank you.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Then explain to me how putting 30pts into Acro “working together” with SoM when it benefits more if that 30pts is spent in SA?

The benefit is completely irrelevant. Fact of the matter is, SoM and AR do not inhibit each other in any way, shape, or form. They work just fine together when it comes to providing you healing. A reverse example: Residual Venoms doesn’t “work” with Serpent’s Touch, because ST is not a Venom.

These things are normally obvious to people, but somehow, you and I are here.

[…] you’re trying to make us believe.

I actually don’t care whether you believe it or not. As I said: it’s not subject to your approval. I’ll make an attempt to explain it, out of kindness, but I’m perfectly content with you stubbornly misunderstanding the point for the rest of eternity.

I guess saying this doesn’t advocate spending 30pts into Acro worth it;

Interceptor.2653:

Well, build are about choices, as they say. I combine SoM with AR occasionally, and it does work.

Correct; I am not advocating spending 30 points in Acrobatics here. I have a personal build that uses it occasionally, but it’s more for the Vitality/Boon duration, and AR can be a random throw-in when the added sustain is worth it.

In a void, AR is not really that good; it’s just better than an empty slot.

evilapprentice.6379:

The intent of this thread is to hopefully have Anet come and explain to use their future plan for HtC and AR […]

What difference does it make if people discuss the two skills? You already made your case in the OP, neatly avoiding the positive aspects of HtC and the only other thing to do would be maybe post it in a place where a dev will actually see the thing.

@OP
Sorry dude, but no one from a-net will replay to serious threads like this, they only replay to meaningless / funny / fluff threads. Not to mention they know we are right and will never admit it.

Raven.9603:

what i imagine anet would say:

“sword thieves get hit more because of vigor and sword-#2 nerfs, therefore, hard to catch becomes more appealing.”

yeah, They gave us this trait that does more harm than good and want to force us into it, so instead of actually making it viable they nerf every thing else to make it look appealing… at least it is out choice to use it or not. As for last refuge, that one we have no choice… and it gets us killed allot more that it saves us, and don’t bother complaining about it!!! we’ve been doing that since beta and all they did was clean up the tooltip…

Arganthium.5638:

why don’t you mention the positive aspects of HtC

It’s positive when it has a good result, sort of like how Improvisation is good when it recharges something that you needed.

Interceptor.2653:

The benefit is completely irrelevant.

LOL. If there’s no benefit, what’ the point of working together?

Wow! Just Wow!

Fact of the matter is, SoM and AR do not inhibit each other in any way, shape, or form. They work just fine together when it comes to providing you healing.

No they don’t. Are you that blind?!

A reverse example: Residual Venoms doesn’t “work” with Serpent’s Touch, because ST is not a Venom.

That’s not even close of being relevant.

These things are normally obvious to people, but somehow, you and I are here.

The only obvious part is the fact that you’re saying that because there’s a single use for AR then it’s something positive even though that single use it is completely over shadowed by other methods.

Having AR scale with Healing Power and not take SA is an obvious voluntary blindness to the facts on your part.

So I guess, from your perspective, Healing gears work well together with AR.

heh.

[…] you’re trying to make us believe.

I actually don’t care whether you believe it or not. As I said: it’s not subject to your approval.

Riiight. Well then, why do you object with the OP? doh!

I’ll make an attempt to explain it, out of kindness, but I’m perfectly content with you stubbornly misunderstanding the point for the rest of eternity.

Why explain it if you don’t care what I believe? You keep on stating the “facts” yet the facts shows that you’re wrong.

I guess saying this doesn’t advocate spending 30pts into Acro worth it;

Interceptor.2653:

Well, build are about choices, as they say. I combine SoM with AR occasionally, and it does work.

Correct; I am not advocating spending 30 points in Acrobatics here. I have a personal build that uses it occasionally, but it’s more for the Vitality/Boon duration, and AR can be a random throw-in when the added sustain is worth it.

In a void, AR is not really that good; it’s just better than an empty slot.

“uses it occasionally” … /facepalm

Yup, we see it here folks. Someone uses these skills/traits occasionally so it is better than an empty slot, let’s be glad.

sigh

Sir Vincent III.1286:

LOL.

I can’t really be responsible for whatever misconceptions you have about my positions.

I mean, how did you get from “the benefit is irrelevant” to “there is no benefit”? Those two phrases are not even equivalent. The word “irrelevant” means “doesn’t matter”, not “doesn’t exist”. If you want to have any kind of discussion at all, you’ll have to stop putting words in my mouth.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

why don’t you mention the positive aspects of HtC

It’s positive when it has a good result, sort of like how Improvisation is good when it recharges something that you needed.

And how, precisely, does that make up for all of the bad results? Furthermore, with what frequency do good results appear with HtC?

Arganthium.5638:

And how, precisely, does that make up for all of the bad results?

Maybe ask someone who said that it did? Acknowledging the good parts of HtC does not imply that the skill is in a good place, or that the negatives don’t matter.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

LOL.

I can’t really be responsible for whatever misconceptions you have about my positions.

I mean, how did you get from “the benefit is irrelevant” to “there is no benefit”?

The only reason why benefit would be irrelevant is if there’s no benefit. If there is a benefit, then it would be completely relevant.

By saying that it’s irrelevant, you’re saying that it’s perfectly ok whether there is a benefit or there’s no benefit. I’m responding to your open assumption that having no benefit is perfectly fine.

Those two phrases are not even equivalent.

Eh? Are you saying then that having a benefit is irrelevant? O.o?

The word “irrelevant” means “doesn’t matter”, not “doesn’t exist”. If you want to have any kind of discussion at all, you’ll have to stop putting words in my mouth.

No. “irrelevant” means " it’s not related."

But using your definition, “benefit is irrelevant” means “benefit doesn’t exist”.

lol

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

And how, precisely, does that make up for all of the bad results?

Maybe ask someone who said that it did? Acknowledging the good parts of HtC does not imply that the skill is in a good place, or that the negatives don’t matter.

But that’s precisely the point. If the number of times that HtC comes up with bad results for thieves is far greater than the number of times it has good results, then are we really being “so breathless and hyperbolic about it”?

Arganthium.5638:

But that’s precisely the point. If the number of times that HtC comes up with bad results for thieves is far greater than the number of times it has good results, then are we really being “so breathless and hyperbolic about it”?

I’d say so (and in fact, I did), particularly since you asked me for a precise estimation of good/bad results but merely submitted “far greater” for your own, which is nearly unquantifiable. What does that even mean? I can come up with a hundred situations where HtC has a horrible end result, but I could do the same for good ones, too.

It’s hard to seem serious without acknowledging the good parts of HtC, however minor you may think that they are, because balance is holistic in this game by its nature. The OP is not bad — I agree with most of it — it’s just incomplete and less likely to get the desired results.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

But that’s precisely the point. If the number of times that HtC comes up with bad results for thieves is far greater than the number of times it has good results, then are we really being “so breathless and hyperbolic about it”?

I’d say so (and in fact, I did), particularly since you asked me for a precise estimation of good/bad results but merely submitted “far greater” for your own, which is nearly unquantifiable. What does that even mean? I can come up with a hundred situations where HtC has a horrible end result, but I could do the same for good ones, too.

It’s hard to seem serious without acknowledging the good parts of HtC, however minor you may think that they are, because balance is holistic in this game by its nature. The OP is not bad — I agree with most of it — it’s just incomplete and less likely to get the desired results.

Since you refuse to stop derailing this thread, here you go.

Taking control and choice away from the player is never a good thing. Never ever. Even if the end result has some positive attached to it(which is going to be rare), it’s not a good thing. It removes the ability of the player to make choices based on the situation at hand. What if my target was about to die, and I’d prefer to hit a stunbreaker and finish them off? What if [insert any situation where I could just use a stunbreaker and accomplish a goal rather than being teleported away from the situation beyond my control and at the whim of another player].

It doesn’t matter if HtC happens to save me once in a while – taking away my control and choice over where my character is is always a negative effect. No positive HtC offers outweighs that – it is always a negative effect, even when it happens to be helpful as a consolation prize. The effect would have to be huge to overcome how negative it is to remove my ability to control where my character is, and when.

You know what most games call an affect that removes control and choice from the player? A Crowd control effect. HtC operates like a crowd control effect, always, even when it happens to save you.

Agree with me or not, for the second time, please stop derailing the thread. There are dozens of other threads you can discuss HtC in.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

By saying that it’s irrelevant, you’re saying that it’s perfectly ok whether there is a benefit or there’s no benefit.

You’ll get into trouble if you tell me what I am saying. What’s “irrelevant” here is 30 in Shadows Arts. What it’s irrelevant TO, is “the point”. I’m not talking about optimal build paths, I’m talking about AR. In a thread about AR.

No. “irrelevant” means " it’s not related."

We don’t live in a world where words have singular definitions; both are valid.

evilapprentice.6379:

Even if the end result has some positive attached to it(which is going to be rare), it’s not a good thing.

Seems like a matter of opinion, to me. HtC is not like Last Refuge; you can avoid it completely if you don’t like the implications of running it. Setting aside the various neutral/bad results, the one nice thing that it offers is a contingency that doesn’t require any reaction time. How many other traits offer something like this for a control effect?

What if [insert any situation where I could just use a stunbreaker and accomplish a goal rather than being teleported away from the situation beyond my control and at the whim of another player].

Just in case it wasn’t already clear, I agree with you that these (and other similar situations) are unfavorable things that happen with HtC, and I don’t like them. So now you can stop belaboring the point, because it’s never been in contention in the first place.

please stop derailing the thread.

My posts are not off-topic. This is a thread about AR/HtC’s interaction with survival, right? I mean, I can stop giving your thread visibility and discussion if you want it to vanish into the Page 2+ graveyard, but I don’t see how that accomplishes anything useful.

Interceptor.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

Even if the end result has some positive attached to it(which is going to be rare), it’s not a good thing.

Seems like a matter of opinion, to me. HtC is not like Last Refuge; you can avoid it completely if you don’t like the implications of running it. Setting aside the various neutral/bad results, the one nice thing that it offers is a contingency that doesn’t require any reaction time. How many other traits offer something like this for a control effect?

Fine, lets turn this post into a discussion of just how specifically bad HtC is.

No, it’s not a matter of opinion – losing control and choice is always a negative thing. There might be a strong enough positive to outweigh it, but that doesn’t mean that specific effect is not negative. There is no scenario where someone else making the choice where your character is, at their whim and not yours, is anything but inherently negative – you are the player, you should always be making those choices except for when you’re disallowed by crowd control effects (since that is the point behind their design). Even if the choice made for you was technically better, it is a negative thing to take that choice away from you – you don’t have to agree, but it’s not an opinion, it’s a fact and can’t be debated.

Not running HtC was a perfectly valid defense prior to Dec 10th – every class has kittenty traits, nothing will ever be perfect, and no one is forcing thieves to take HtC. Since we’re specifically talking about the Dec 10th patch, where HtC was lauded as a survivability buff intended to allow thieves to continue to survive fights despite all the other nerfs, that line of reasoning no longer fits.

Unless Anet’s discussion is about giving us 3 seconds worth of stability + stunbreak on CC + vigor + no BS teleportation, sure, I like hard to catch.

And Assassins’s rewards? Warrior’s adrenaline heal is better than Assassin’s reward.

I rather Anet not “discuss” with us, seeing they obviously didn’t change anything from their “discussion” when they asked for our opinions. More than anything, every single kitten patch is an overall nerf. And if they buff the traits here? Expect nerfs in other skills to “justify” it.

Disclaimer
I’ve been using 30 acrobatics (quick pockets) for a long time on a non-stealth p/p build (that right there says just how seriously you can take anything I say in this post).

As I’ve learned with guard heals, AR is more of a “sheer number of heals” rather than “how powerful the heals are” kind of thing. You place it in a build that heals a little, a lot of times. Before (while running SoM) I thought AR would only contribute to over heals. It kinda works with acrobatics stats (vit for the most part) because the % of hp you “chose to stay/hover at” becomes safer the higher your hp is.

Did that make sense?

So, I’m saying it works (where “it doesn’t work” = “AR is mostly over heals”). It just needs the same treatment SoM got when they buffed the base heal on SoM.

I’ve had decent fun running a D/D Deathblossom build using Signet of Malice and Assassin’s Reward with Settlers Amulet/gear. Viability is a whole different issue but there’s a build there. It’s pure attrition but holds a point well and has some amount of sustain power in a team fight (especially if the point is small or there are minions/spirits abound).

Proven.2854:

I’ve had decent fun running a D/D Deathblossom build using Signet of Malice and Assassin’s Reward with Settlers Amulet/gear. Viability is a whole different issue but there’s a build there. It’s pure attrition but holds a point well and has some amount of sustain power in a team fight (especially if the point is small or there are minions/spirits abound).

Signet of Malice and AR always seem like a basket full of fun to me on paper, but I can never get around the math that Signet of Malice is only ever more effective than Withdraw if I’m doing more than 2 attacks per second on average. If you get CCed at all, or your enemy evades, or etc. etc. etc., then Withdraw is usually just a better choice for 1v1 fights.

It does seem like Signet has a big potential to outshine the tumble when things get crowded though. The downside is that since you can never activate it, you can never use fun Rune sets that trigger when you activate a heal, or Hastened Replenishment, or stuff like that.

evilapprentice.6379:

Fine, lets turn this post into a discussion of just how specifically bad HtC is.

I think that this is already pretty well-traveled territory.

No, it’s not a matter of opinion – losing control and choice is always a negative thing.

… which itself is a matter of opinion. I guess that this is the basic problem of this thread, that you don’t acknowledge the possibility that your assertions could be incorrect. Just saying that something is an undebatable fact, does not make it so.

In any case, the choice with HtC is made when you slot the trait. It does basically what it says that it will, Stability case aside. Once more: HtC offers you a contingency for a control effect, that requires no reaction time on the part of the player. How many other traits do that? Is this not a potentially important factor when someone is deciding whether or not to take it? There are very few traits that do something in this situation, and those are exist are already Master tier or higher.

I mean, you admit that the loss of control is acceptable for CC skills because of their design, so why doesn’t it follow that HtC can do the same thing in exchange for a fairly hard to acquire effect?

Not running HtC was a perfectly valid defense prior to Dec 10th – every class has kittenty traits, nothing will ever be perfect, and no one is forcing thieves to take HtC. Since we’re specifically talking about the Dec 10th patch, where HtC was lauded as a survivability buff intended to allow thieves to continue to survive fights despite all the other nerfs, that line of reasoning no longer fits.

And here comes the hyperbole again. Lauded? Really? They just said “we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line through easier access to the Hard to Catch trait and increased effectiveness of the Assassin’s Reward trait”. There is no high praise here, and in fact they worded it such that it sounds like this is literally an experiment to see if it improves the survivability of Acrobatics Thieves. They have access to all of the data that would support or refute such a thing, after all.

And naturally, “despite all other nerfs” is phrasing entirely of your own construction. What they actually said, was that the intention was to “reward thieves who are actively engaged in the fight rather than those who are just dodging over and over again”. Which you’ll note is quite different from what you said.

I mean, seriously. Putting words in someone’s mouth, or making assumptions about their motives… why would anyone want to participate in a discussion under those conditions?