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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

The thief can excel at applying damaging conditions when they want to, stacking long poison and lots of bleeding. The problem is that these can be easily cleansed, 2 condition removal skills cleans out all the stacks, and it can be difficult to apply it all again quickly. As such there have been mention of adding a way for thieves to apply burning, and I agree completely. An extra condition (which is dedicated to damage as opposed to poison which is multi faceted) would make it harder to cleanse out the thief’s conditions.

So what about giving the thief the torch?

While this might be slightly against what the thief stands for (going unnoticed is a bit more tricky while carrying a light source), it would in my opinion help the game mechanics (and could leave the thief without a weapon combo that results in stealth, simulating the lack of stealth). This could give the thief a weapon skill that gives burning, making it stackable, and provide more utility to thieves through some extra weapon and dual skills, while encouraging moving away from CnD and Black Powder which Anet seems to oppose due to constant stealth. This also means the utility skills don’t have to be reworked (making it difficult to keep builds alive because skills are only be added, old ones don’t need to be touched).

What are your thoughts?

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Posted by: Leohart.4610

Leohart.4610

Thief? Torch? Kinda weird if ya ask me. Maybe instead of a torch, we could go for rifle? Kinda like dart shooting rifle or something that applies random conditions. I dunno, just throwing some ideas out here.

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Torch would be a great addition – I can see it being used in cool ways eg. P/T dual skill = firing bullets through the flame to cause ranged burning damage etc.

As for rifle being a condi ranged weapon, that would be pointless, as we already have one – Pistol. It needs buffs, but we already have one, as we already have a power ranged weapon (SB).

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

(edited by Auesis.7301)

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

@Op P and D AA both apply condition be it poison or bleeding… These are two of the most damaging conditions in the game… Don’t blow all your conditions at once let them cleanse your first application then really lay into them… Potent poison is a good trait to take if you don’t feel mug is oh so necessary… Torch would be kind of unnecessary considering that a thief can apply poison, weakness, vulnerability, and bleeding without touching their utility skills….

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

@Op P and D AA both apply condition be it poison or bleeding… These are two of the most damaging conditions in the game… Don’t blow all your conditions at once let them cleanse your first application then really lay into them… Potent poison is a good trait to take if you don’t feel mug is oh so necessary… Torch would be kind of unnecessary considering that a thief can apply poison, weakness, vulnerability, and bleeding without touching their utility skills….

So explain why devs feel condition builds for Thief are too weak, and we need access to burns because our current condition builds are easy to cleanse and too reliant on narrow damage paths ie. bleeds and bleeds only. Poison is NOT used for damage.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

@Op P and D AA both apply condition be it poison or bleeding… These are two of the most damaging conditions in the game… Don’t blow all your conditions at once let them cleanse your first application then really lay into them… Potent poison is a good trait to take if you don’t feel mug is oh so necessary… Torch would be kind of unnecessary considering that a thief can apply poison, weakness, vulnerability, and bleeding without touching their utility skills….

So explain why devs feel condition builds for Thief are too weak, and we need access to burns because our current condition builds are easy to cleanse and too reliant on narrow damage paths ie. bleeds and bleeds only. Poison is NOT used for damage.

Poison is used to limit their healing which in turn helps out your damage… And condition builds are the nemesis to mesmers and warriors and other thieves… Just a simple trait can make poison last up to a minute and the only time I have every really gotten my tail handed to me be a thief is a venom/bleed thief… These are scarier than the BS burst thieves because they can keep reapplying the conditions easily… To the point where two of them is enough to take out an anti condition guard…. (One would do it under other conditions) But you have to accept the fact that currently people run condition cleanses because they feel that other wise the conditions are too strong to ignore one venom caltrops and stealing is enough to keep a full up time of poison on your target… And you also have the inflict weakness when you inflict poison trait… This is pretty much the antithesis of might… Dodging sucks and so does damage… Change your build around some get some sigils of venom/debility and condition damage runes and you will be fine… No need to introduce another weapon that is more than likely gonna suck worse than other weapon options.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

Poison is used to limit their healing which in turn helps out your damage… And condition builds are the nemesis to mesmers and warriors and other thieves… Just a simple trait can make poison last up to a minute and the only time I have every really gotten my tail handed to me be a thief is a venom/bleed thief… These are scarier than the BS burst thieves because they can keep reapplying the conditions easily… To the point where two of them is enough to take out an anti condition guard…. (One would do it under other conditions) But you have to accept the fact that currently people run condition cleanses because they feel that other wise the conditions are too strong to ignore one venom caltrops and stealing is enough to keep a full up time of poison on your target… And you also have the inflict weakness when you inflict poison trait… This is pretty much the antithesis of might… Dodging sucks and so does damage… Change your build around some get some sigils of venom/debility and condition damage runes and you will be fine… No need to introduce another weapon that is more than likely gonna suck worse than other weapon options.

While I would never disagree with the usefulness of poison I agree with your stance that it is ultimately not a damaging condition in itself, it is used to prevent healing. However healing is only one of the many ways to prevent damage in guild wars (see: aegis, protection, dodging, ect.). Also condition builds with thieves tend to benefit from stealth to improve survivability (stack conditions, stealth to recover, rinse, repeat). As such it would certainly help the thief to be able to apply another damaging condition so that condition damage can be spread over more conditions rather than being concentrated so that it is less effected by cleanse if built that way. Confusion would see less benefit to thieves because of stealth, stealth often presents a break in battle where skill use is lessened, meaning few procs to confusion. This leaves burning as the superior option, it just needs an implementation.

The reason I suggest the thief get the torch is because I would like to see the thief gain burning without tweaking the pre-existing skills (thief has seen some unkind changes, and reworking a utility skill to provide burning would likely mean it losing its current use). By adding the torch as an option current builds wouldn’t suffer (don’t like the torch? just don’t use it and see no change). The torch wouldn’t need a corresponding trait to improve it as it really is on the fringe of how a thief would behave.

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

You ignored the fact that thieves can still cripple/weaken/vulnerability on par if not better than every single class in this game… You also have more blinds. I am saying that currently I feel that thieves are by far the best condition appliers and therefore do not need more ways to apply conditions like burning… Look at say guardians… They really only get burning and blinds… Ele’s don’t get poison or weakness at all… Mesmers can’t either. Really the mesmers only get confusion which is sad in pvp currently… You guys have it top tier as long as conditions go… Specced for it or not.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

You ignored the fact that thieves can still cripple/weaken/vulnerability on par if not better than every single class in this game… You also have more blinds. I am saying that currently I feel that thieves are by far the best condition appliers and therefore do not need more ways to apply conditions like burning… Look at say guardians… They really only get burning and blinds… Ele’s don’t get poison or weakness at all… Mesmers can’t either. Really the mesmers only get confusion which is sad in pvp currently… You guys have it top tier as long as conditions go… Specced for it or not.

It’s true thieves can apply many conditions, it’s just that their options for damaging conditions aren’t huge. Allowing the torch in the offhand would provide some burning skills while taking away some options at other conditions through weapon skills alone (depending on the skills used you would either have poison or bleed and vulnerability). Meaning using the torch would sacrifice cripples, blinds and stealth in order to focus more on condition damage. Allowing the torch would mean trading cc conditions like cripple and blind for a more damage based condition, burning. The goal of this would simply be to enable condition damage builds to have a better place for thieves, especially in PvP or WvW without gaining something from nothing.

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

You ignored the fact that thieves can still cripple/weaken/vulnerability on par if not better than every single class in this game… You also have more blinds. I am saying that currently I feel that thieves are by far the best condition appliers and therefore do not need more ways to apply conditions like burning… Look at say guardians… They really only get burning and blinds… Ele’s don’t get poison or weakness at all… Mesmers can’t either. Really the mesmers only get confusion which is sad in pvp currently… You guys have it top tier as long as conditions go… Specced for it or not.

It’s true thieves can apply many conditions, it’s just that their options for damaging conditions aren’t huge. Allowing the torch in the offhand would provide some burning skills while taking away some options at other conditions through weapon skills alone (depending on the skills used you would either have poison or bleed and vulnerability). Meaning using the torch would sacrifice cripples, blinds and stealth in order to focus more on condition damage. Allowing the torch would mean trading cc conditions like cripple and blind for a more damage based condition, burning. The goal of this would simply be to enable condition damage builds to have a better place for thieves, especially in PvP or WvW without gaining something from nothing.

If you go to PVP and look at the condition that is most damaging on breakdowns it is bleeding… Which thieves do better than ANYONE… After that it may be poison another thing that thieves are amazing with… Lets say guardians are the most reliant class on burning (frequency of application) never ever do I see burning be the highest condition on a death breakdown… It is bleeding… Not burning…

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

If you go to PVP and look at the condition that is most damaging on breakdowns it is bleeding… Which thieves do better than ANYONE… After that it may be poison another thing that thieves are amazing with… Lets say guardians are the most reliant class on burning (frequency of application) never ever do I see burning be the highest condition on a death breakdown… It is bleeding… Not burning…

True, bleeding will result in more damage than burning, but that’s due to the nature of bleeding. Bleeding stacks intensity, each stack is doing its own damage, whereas burning stacks duration, meaning chances are if you run a damage build focused on burn any kill will likely have a lot of burn damage still on it. My point is burn really acts as a supplementary damaging condition, and so it would be helpful if the thief had the option to utilize it to supplement their bleeds.

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

Except you don’t need it to supplement your bleeds… 1 sneak attack is 5 stacks and the caltrops dodge throws extra stacks then the caltrops skill throws even more stacks while also taking the entire diameter of a node except for GY on legacy of foefire… And in order for thieves to really benefit from a torch they would need something in their traits to make it worthwhile right now poison is gnarly because you can increase its duration by insane amounts and also increase weakness duration which makes a thief extremely hard to kill because it makes all non-crit attacks just do glance damage… Burning you don’t need plain and simple… And if you think a thief has a difficult time reapplying the conditions they just slapped on then something isn’t right with how you are being built…

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: randomfightfan.4091

randomfightfan.4091

sounds like to me you want to play a ranger. Not kidding here, you’d like sbow and x/torch ranger. Drop the torch aoe, swap to sbow, victory through poison, bleeds and burns!

Check out my page for some good thiefisms :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/randomfightfan/videos?view=0&flow=grid

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Posted by: BobbyT.7192

BobbyT.7192

Poison is used to limit their healing which in turn helps out your damage… And condition builds are the nemesis to mesmers and warriors and other thieves… Just a simple trait can make poison last up to a minute and the only time I have every really gotten my tail handed to me be a thief is a venom/bleed thief… These are scarier than the BS burst thieves because they can keep reapplying the conditions easily… To the point where two of them is enough to take out an anti condition guard…. (One would do it under other conditions) But you have to accept the fact that currently people run condition cleanses because they feel that other wise the conditions are too strong to ignore one venom caltrops and stealing is enough to keep a full up time of poison on your target… And you also have the inflict weakness when you inflict poison trait… This is pretty much the antithesis of might… Dodging sucks and so does damage… Change your build around some get some sigils of venom/debility and condition damage runes and you will be fine… No need to introduce another weapon that is more than likely gonna suck worse than other weapon options.

While I would never disagree with the usefulness of poison I agree with your stance that it is ultimately not a damaging condition in itself, it is used to prevent healing. However healing is only one of the many ways to prevent damage in guild wars (see: aegis, protection, dodging, ect.). Also condition builds with thieves tend to benefit from stealth to improve survivability (stack conditions, stealth to recover, rinse, repeat). As such it would certainly help the thief to be able to apply another damaging condition so that condition damage can be spread over more conditions rather than being concentrated so that it is less effected by cleanse if built that way. Confusion would see less benefit to thieves because of stealth, stealth often presents a break in battle where skill use is lessened, meaning few procs to confusion. This leaves burning as the superior option, it just needs an implementation.

The reason I suggest the thief get the torch is because I would like to see the thief gain burning without tweaking the pre-existing skills (thief has seen some unkind changes, and reworking a utility skill to provide burning would likely mean it losing its current use). By adding the torch as an option current builds wouldn’t suffer (don’t like the torch? just don’t use it and see no change). The torch wouldn’t need a corresponding trait to improve it as it really is on the fringe of how a thief would behave.

Well confusion would work with stealth, because what does most people do when a thief stealth? auto attack and aoe everywhere. Would be useful is pvp, and in a group setting in pve.

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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

The use of burning represents an option for prolonged fights, where condition damage comes into play. Sure the thief can apply bleeds quite constantly but having a single condition type that you focus on makes for simple countering. Most professions have a skill or trait that allows them to drop one or two conditions quite regularly. If you’re banking pretty much all of your condition damage into one condition the ease of removing is increased (it is true that placing other conditions on them will make it harder to cure bleed specifically, but the chance is still there). The theory behind giving the torch is that should your opponent be able to keep much of your bleeds at bay there’s still some lesser condition damage able to get through by sacrificing some cc.

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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

sounds like to me you want to play a ranger. Not kidding here, you’d like sbow and x/torch ranger. Drop the torch aoe, swap to sbow, victory through poison, bleeds and burns!

I do enjoy the ranger as well, though I don’t exactly enjoy the pet mechanic, and really enjoy the initiative mechanic as I find it makes skill use more tactical

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Posted by: randomfightfan.4091

randomfightfan.4091

I do enjoy the ranger as well, though I don’t exactly enjoy the pet mechanic, and really enjoy the initiative mechanic as I find it makes skill use more tactical

Agreed there, love initiative and hate pets. I want to do my own damage. Hate relying on outside sources to succeed, especially unreliable sources that can’t even dodge roll. Also resource management > cooldown imo

Check out my page for some good thiefisms :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/randomfightfan/videos?view=0&flow=grid

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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

Agreed there, love initiative and hate pets. I want to do my own damage. Hate relying on outside sources to succeed, especially unreliable sources that can’t even dodge roll. Also resource management > cooldown imo

Yea, I don’t like the idea of having an AI character integrated into your character, sure you have a measure of control but I prefer the option to take AI when I want it like the necro, or opt alone.

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

I do enjoy the ranger as well, though I don’t exactly enjoy the pet mechanic, and really enjoy the initiative mechanic as I find it makes skill use more tactical

Agreed there, love initiative and hate pets. I want to do my own damage. Hate relying on outside sources to succeed, especially unreliable sources that can’t even dodge roll. Also resource management > cooldown imo

You never use thieves guild or ambush? I’m impressed those are like thieves “I want out of jail free cards” The damage from both of them is kind of ridiculous.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: draner.5213

draner.5213

You never use thieves guild or ambush? I’m impressed those are like thieves “I want out of jail free cards” The damage from both of them is kind of ridiculous.

those are both great skills, the point is you choose if you want to use them in your build vs them being imposed on your character.

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Posted by: Daeqar.8965

Daeqar.8965

Poison is NOT used for damage.

(and folks chipping in agreement)

While I can agree that situationally (any time opponents/mobs are healing significantly) the greater value of poison is healing reduction rather than its damage, the actual statement takes it to an extreme such that it’s no longer a true one.

In other words, the sentiment is accurate but what you actually said, isn’t.

Poison does as much damage as two stacks of bleeding and is extremely easy to maintain. Generally speaking, the damage per gcd/cd and damage per resource spent on keeping up poison is even better than bleeds for long term damage. It’s highly efficient damage, but extremely limited in quantity since it doesn’t stack.

Even in the complete absence of any healing, a condition thief focusing on damage would be foolish and gimping their own damage to completely neglect keeping up poison. So, clearly, poison is used for damage, but it does have very limited damage potential.

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Posted by: Daeqar.8965

Daeqar.8965

If you go to PVP and look at the condition that is most damaging on breakdowns it is bleeding… Which thieves do better than ANYONE…

Thieves are definitely one of the more bleed capable classes, however not “better than anyone” as you say.

For example, a sword+sword warrior built for bleeds can out-bleed a thief by a huge margin, at least against single targets or ones clustered closely enough to get hit by it. They can get 18+ ticks each bleed off sword autoattack even without using food.

As for bleeds vs. burning… It depends on the overall build. Bleeds are much better suited to dedicated condition damage builds as they can scale up better – the ceiling on damage is higher. Burning is much better for augmenting a direct damage build with more damage. Burning does as much damage as roughly 7 stacks of bleed, and can be easier to maintain – but it doesn’t scale as well with +condition damage and is obviously limited to the one stack. Burning also tends to be better against a foe with frequent condition removal because putting it back up is roughly equivalent to getting 7 stacks of bleed back up…it’s just easier to do and the removal ends up being less punitive.

(edited by Daeqar.8965)

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Posted by: Kaon.7192

Kaon.7192

You might be interested in trying an old condi build that I played a while ago thats made specifically to counter the issue you posed here.

15 points in DA for mug and weakness on poison,
30 in SA for blinds and Regen + condition removal in stealth,
15 in Acrobatics for extra dodges and Vigor on heal,
10 points in Trickery for Caltrops on dodge.

Weapons are shortbow and d/d, runes full ***Balthazar***. Amulet choices include Carrion if you want to be more offensive or Shaman/Cleric if you want more staying power in team fights or the ability to outlast people in 1vManys.

Healing skill is ***Withdraw***, utilities are shadowstep, refuge, caltrops, elite is thieves guild.

Withdraw + Balthazar runes will allow you to inflict a 5s (tooltip says 3, but testing says 5) AoE burn every 15 seconds. The flame blast occurs at the end of your roll so if you’re new to Withdraw and can’t position yourself and your camera to make the roll end exactly where you want, then you’ll need some practice with that before you can use the build to its full potential.

My opening is cluster bomb from range and then withdraw to your target, put down caltrops and detonate cluster bomb when its in range, drop choking gas and swap to dagger and do a c&d and backstab and then alternate between dodges, autos, c&ds, blossoms. It sounds long but all of this should happen within a second or two after the cluster bomb lands. By the end of it they will have 5s burn, 20s+ poison, 8+ stacks of bleed, 10s+ weakness, 10s+ cripple, and 5s of vulnerability + blind.

A couple of usage notes:

You have no hard-CCs, so save your steal to poison their heal if they don’t have poison on them at the time.

Save blossom for right after they remove an existing stack of bleed to capitalize on the duration. In a typical fight your target should have poison, weakness, 3+ bleeds, cripple at all times, making your fire “burst” a pain to remove.

Refuge when you’re low on health for basically a full heal. When you refuge you can use the time to setup caltrops and choking gas, which will not reveal you.

C&D often for the direct damage, might stacks, sustain, and 2 extra conditions to buffer your other ones from removal.

Reapply the choking gas from shortbow only when you’re close to full health and don’t need the extra stealth sustain from offhand dagger. 9s weapon swap can feel like an eternity when you need to pull off that c&d. The only other time you should be switching back to shortbow is when you’re facing multiple bursty classes and need to escape.

Don’t underestimate your direct damage even when using condition focused amulets like shaman’s. The 300+ power boost from balthazar and 15 in SA will make your backstabs and heartseekers carry some decent weight.

Try to use direct damage for finishing people off unless you think you can land a perfect fire blast before they can heal up. Other conditions are inefficient for this purpose. You can also try to use steal or shadowstep mid-withdraw to land your fire blast in addition to mug damage if you’re completely out of position and follow up with a c&d backstab or a few heartseekers.

Save your thieves for finishing someone off quickly in a 1vMany or a bunker that you absolutely need to take down right now.

Have fun! =)

(edited by Kaon.7192)

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

Poison is used to limit their healing which in turn helps out your damage… And condition builds are the nemesis to mesmers and warriors and other thieves… Just a simple trait can make poison last up to a minute and the only time I have every really gotten my tail handed to me be a thief is a venom/bleed thief… These are scarier than the BS burst thieves because they can keep reapplying the conditions easily… To the point where two of them is enough to take out an anti condition guard…. (One would do it under other conditions) But you have to accept the fact that currently people run condition cleanses because they feel that other wise the conditions are too strong to ignore one venom caltrops and stealing is enough to keep a full up time of poison on your target… And you also have the inflict weakness when you inflict poison trait… This is pretty much the antithesis of might… Dodging sucks and so does damage… Change your build around some get some sigils of venom/debility and condition damage runes and you will be fine… No need to introduce another weapon that is more than likely gonna suck worse than other weapon options.

While I would never disagree with the usefulness of poison I agree with your stance that it is ultimately not a damaging condition in itself, it is used to prevent healing. However healing is only one of the many ways to prevent damage in guild wars (see: aegis, protection, dodging, ect.). Also condition builds with thieves tend to benefit from stealth to improve survivability (stack conditions, stealth to recover, rinse, repeat). As such it would certainly help the thief to be able to apply another damaging condition so that condition damage can be spread over more conditions rather than being concentrated so that it is less effected by cleanse if built that way. Confusion would see less benefit to thieves because of stealth, stealth often presents a break in battle where skill use is lessened, meaning few procs to confusion. This leaves burning as the superior option, it just needs an implementation.

The reason I suggest the thief get the torch is because I would like to see the thief gain burning without tweaking the pre-existing skills (thief has seen some unkind changes, and reworking a utility skill to provide burning would likely mean it losing its current use). By adding the torch as an option current builds wouldn’t suffer (don’t like the torch? just don’t use it and see no change). The torch wouldn’t need a corresponding trait to improve it as it really is on the fringe of how a thief would behave.

Well confusion would work with stealth, because what does most people do when a thief stealth? auto attack and aoe everywhere. Would be useful is pvp, and in a group setting in pve.

Someone already asked about getting Confusion on Pistol 4 and just no… You guys don’t need confusion in place of a pistol skill that is a somewhat spammable interrupt… And as a Mesmer player I can tell you that in pvp confusion is just sad… So your damage from confusion wouldn’t be good at all considering it would most likely be small stacks… Head shot is better as it is now.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: randomfightfan.4091

randomfightfan.4091

If you go to PVP and look at the condition that is most damaging on breakdowns it is bleeding… Which thieves do better than ANYONE… After that it may be poison another thing that thieves are amazing with… Lets say guardians are the most reliant class on burning (frequency of application) never ever do I see burning be the highest condition on a death breakdown… It is bleeding… Not burning…

I lol’d at this thank you!

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Wait you’re serious? Oh okay well sword warrior gets more bleeds and has access to more conditions (don’t talk about venoms, they’re junk compared to all other utilities).

AND THEN THERE’S ENGI. 1 engi can apply 25 stacks of bleeds and vulnerability with just using grenades. While he’s doing this he also has access to burning, poison, blind, chilled, and anything he might have on his utility bar. If he has pistol main hand too that’s confusion on top of all that. If you don’t believe me, go find a high health target, go 30 into top trait line, get bleeds on explosions, burning on crit, grenades upgrade. It’s near 100% max stacks uptime.

Check out my page for some good thiefisms :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/randomfightfan/videos?view=0&flow=grid

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

If you go to PVP and look at the condition that is most damaging on breakdowns it is bleeding… Which thieves do better than ANYONE… After that it may be poison another thing that thieves are amazing with… Lets say guardians are the most reliant class on burning (frequency of application) never ever do I see burning be the highest condition on a death breakdown… It is bleeding… Not burning…

I lol’d at this thank you!

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Wait you’re serious? Oh okay well sword warrior gets more bleeds and has access to more conditions (don’t talk about venoms, they’re junk compared to all other utilities).

AND THEN THERE’S ENGI. 1 engi can apply 25 stacks of bleeds and vulnerability with just using grenades. While he’s doing this he also has access to burning, poison, blind, chilled, and anything he might have on his utility bar. If he has pistol main hand too that’s confusion on top of all that. If you don’t believe me, go find a high health target, go 30 into top trait line, get bleeds on explosions, burning on crit, grenades upgrade. It’s near 100% max stacks uptime.

P/d and caltrops can do it faster with no cd… Sorry but yes this is true… And the last time you saw a sword sword warrior? I see em maybe one every 10 matches…

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: Dasorine.1964

Dasorine.1964

p/d and caltrops now have no cooldown? awesome!

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

p/d and caltrops now have no cooldown? awesome!

Caltrops on dodge and p/d applies bleeds like crazy… And everyone seems to be consistently ignoring that thieves can apply consistently weakness which is a godsend in pvp…

Johnny The Gray
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Posted by: Dasorine.1964

Dasorine.1964

they still have cooldowns, caltrops on dodge are limited by your endurance and last 4 seconds, can apply a maximum of 3 bleeds

P/D can apply, at base durations, 7 bleeds from auto attack (as you apply 8th, 1st drops) and 5 bleeds with sneak attack that last for 4 seconds and can be applied every 5.5 seconds at the cost of 2-3 autoattack bleeds and only in ideal conditions where people are stood still not doing anything.

So in total around 12 bleeds at any given time using those two “cooldownless” systems (of which autoattack is the only one without a cooldown) that will drop ridiculously quick. Granted with every 25% bleed duration you get about 1-2 more but thats not a lot and definitely not without any cooldowns.

Hardly the top bleed applying set up ever, considering warrior sword autoattack alone can hit around 10 with base durations by itself and other bleed users can do more.

that said I’ve never liked p/d for bleeds anyway but thieves are no way the best at applying it and everything outside the autoattack has a cooldown in one form or other.

As for weakness, yes we can apply it if traited and utilizing a non-damaging shortbow attack fairly constantly, otherwise others have much easier time at both applying it and keeping it up while also doing other things.

Susceptibility to Condition Removal

in Thief

Posted by: randomfightfan.4091

randomfightfan.4091

P/d and caltrops can do it faster with no cd… Sorry but yes this is true… And the last time you saw a sword sword warrior? I see em maybe one every 10 matches…

sorry but the 5 bleeds is on a cd and only works if you can get invisible. You get 1 bleed per auto on pistol and you have to be on top of the guy for caltops to do anything. On top of that, the guy can’t walk out of the caltrops or else you got nothing.

Nades on the other hand, can stack MORE bleeds per auto than the pistol can and it’s in an AOE. It stacks faster due to toolkit skill being able to stack multiple bleeds, the 2 ability giving even more bleeds, and everything giving conditions on their own skills on top of more bleeds on explosion and burning on crit.

Sorry friend but engi can stack it faster and better. Only thing thief has is they can stack it easier on 1 target but even then for not as long

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