Guild Wars 2

I haven’t been able to find much sword/dagger builds but I love the infiltrator’s strike as well as flanking strike and it’s really fun to use. I’m struggling to find a build for it because search bar comes up with months old builds or ones that don’t quite work out as the description says it. If any of you thief pros can recommend me a build or some opinions, combos or tactics that’d be super.

(Don’t convince me out of sword, I know it’s pretty mediocre but I’ll die before I do dagger/pistol backstab)

EDIT: I’m looking for for PvE and WvW

This is a survivability thief S/D build with switch of SB. Based around soldier armour and runes. Not my own build, I got it from the forum thread that’s collected all the thief builds. It’s main use was stated to be WvW. I’m currently putting it together for my thief.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.4|c.1c.h1e.8.1c.h8|5.1c.h1e|1c.9c.1c.9c.1c.9c.1c.9c.1c.9c.1c.9c|1c.64.1c.64.1c.64.1c.64.1c.64.1c.64|a3.u1ab.u46b.0.0|54.7|59.5b.5a.5h.0|e

brickforlife.1364:

I know it’s pretty mediocre but I’ll die before I do dagger/pistol backstab)

In my opinion, S/D is much better than just “mediocre.” It’s an absolute fun weapon set to play and I hope you find a build that best suites your playstyle. =)

JakobGW.5730:

brickforlife.1364:

I know it’s pretty mediocre but I’ll die before I do dagger/pistol backstab)

In my opinion, S/D is much better than just “mediocre.” It’s an absolute fun weapon set to play and I hope you find a build that best suites your playstyle. =)

Yeah I absolutely love it. I don’t see how flanking strike is bad, apparently it’s crap..probably because heartseeker hits harder, autoaims and uses less initiative..but whatever. It’s just hard to find a nice build that does the sword justice.

Are you wanting this for PvE, WvW, sPvP?

Stooperdale.3560:

Are you wanting this for PvE, WvW, sPvP?

I’d like to know this as well. I use (or used and soon will use again when 3s Revealed is back) one particular build for PvE and a slightly different version for WvW, and another version altogether in sPvP.

1 – I use s/d with a 10/30/30/0/0 almost full GC build and it works wonders . Flanking strike is bad, because it doesn’t keep with the target, sometimes you can miss a totally still target too, because of its bad movement.

Sorry. For clarification, this is for PvE and WvW. I don’t partake in sPvP much.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAsYVlUmiO3ey5E95Ey2jeqC5JOFGVS1pgrkPA;TsAg0CvowxgjAHLOOck4siYgw0CA

For PvE (when 3s Revealed was in place, so hopefully I can use this properly again soon) – 0/30/25/15/0, Orrian Truffle + Meat Stew, Sharpening Stone or Maintenance Oil depending how much crit you invested in your gear. Sigil of Para in the sword, Sigil of Force/Accuracy in Dagger.

2 Might per dodge, 2 Might per stealth, lots of dazes and blinds (from SA), lots of available dodges. Worked great for me for a long time.

WvW – 0/30/30/10/0, Truffle Ravioli + Maintenance Oil/Sharpening Stone. Same control aspects, more sustainable from health regen (I found that trait pointless in PvE when most survival there comes from dodging) and possible condition removal on stealth if traited for it instead of blind.

brickforlife.1364:

JakobGW.5730:

brickforlife.1364:

I know it’s pretty mediocre but I’ll die before I do dagger/pistol backstab)

In my opinion, S/D is much better than just “mediocre.” It’s an absolute fun weapon set to play and I hope you find a build that best suites your playstyle. =)

Yeah I absolutely love it. I don’t see how flanking strike is bad, apparently it’s crap..probably because heartseeker hits harder, autoaims and uses less initiative..but whatever. It’s just hard to find a nice build that does the sword justice.

Flanking Strike requires a lot more skill to effectively utilize than the vast majority of weapon skills, simply because it requires so much timing/positioning, and the payoff just isn’t that great. Even landing both hits, the damage is not particularly impressive for the timeframe it takes, the boon stripping is useful but situational, and the invincibility frames granted by the evade are short and difficult to use effectively. Most skills grow with player skill, but FS starts out absolutely terrible and becomes merely passable when mastered. An evade-based mobility attack, a high damage strike, or an unblockable boon-stripper would all be welcome additions to a S/D thief’s toolset, but combining all three of them into one ability just results in a clunky mess.

In short: Flanking Strike is far too expensive to be utilized for any one of its myriad of roles alone (soley to strip boons, burst damage, or evade), and too powerful when filling all of those roles to be any cheaper. Unless you’re doing 2/3 of those things at once, it is inefficient, even when mastered.

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves. I’ve switched from the cookie cutter dagger/dagger to S/D and I can’t see myself going back. Both the mobility and DPS output is downright awesome… even with the so called “balanced” 10/30/30/0/0 build I use. Berserker weapons and jewelry with might stacking on the weaps, rest Valkerye and ruby orbs… and on average I’m doing 10-12K on opponents over the 3 hit auto-attack chain.

Sure… it’s a roll of the dice getting flanking strike to land, but even on a miss it becomes the perfect way to set up your mug attack after stripping a boon from them. If they are still alive after that… follow up with another auto-attack… and if they are still alive after all that (and by this time you know you probably can’t kill them)… you can reset the fight either with #2 shadow return or just C/D off of them. Great great mobility with very cheap use of initiative to boot.

Fun build to play.

Slightly off topic from the OP in terms of S/D, but you could use S/P running the same exact trait allocation (10/30/30/0/0 or my personal favorite 0/30/20/20/0). I find a lot more success going s/p in PvE, S/d in wvw (although S/P isn’t too bad in WvW as well).

The reason for this is BP. LOVE BP, it effectively makes melee mobs without AoE’s completely useless, just BP, use sword autoattack, BP when its running out, and just mow em down. You could also interrupt with PW and have rooted evades (not a huge fan of the rooted aspect but whatever). You can still have an offset that allows you to stealth easier (x/d, d/p).

The reason why you don’t really need S/D in PvE is that you really have no need to constant stealth. You have on demand condi cleansing with the 2 skill, BP mitigates a LOT of damage so you don’t need to regen health as much (and also if you run the 0/30/20/20/0 you can equip ’sin’s reward, with all the initiative you burn it’ll keep you topped off).

S/D in WvW in one on one fights really shines though. Flanking strike becomes an excellent tool to avoid hard hits and get behind/reposition yourself, and the steady access to stealth messes with players more than it messes with the AI.

Silver.4798:

Slightly off topic from the OP in terms of S/D, but you could use S/P running the same exact trait allocation (10/30/30/0/0 or my personal favorite 0/30/20/20/0). I find a lot more success going s/p in PvE, S/d in wvw (although S/P isn’t too bad in WvW as well).

The reason for this is BP. LOVE BP, it effectively makes melee mobs without AoE’s completely useless, just BP, use sword autoattack, BP when its running out, and just mow em down. You could also interrupt with PW and have rooted evades (not a huge fan of the rooted aspect but whatever). You can still have an offset that allows you to stealth easier (x/d, d/p).

The reason why you don’t really need S/D in PvE is that you really have no need to constant stealth. You have on demand condi cleansing with the 2 skill, BP mitigates a LOT of damage so you don’t need to regen health as much (and also if you run the 0/30/20/20/0 you can equip ’sin’s reward, with all the initiative you burn it’ll keep you topped off).

S/D in WvW in one on one fights really shines though. Flanking strike becomes an excellent tool to avoid hard hits and get behind/reposition yourself, and the steady access to stealth messes with players more than it messes with the AI.

o.O What’s BP? I’m pretty new to thief so I haven’t got used to the acronyms yet.

EDIT: Blinding Powder? or Black Powder? I’m assuming you mean Black Powder so you can spam it on the ground and just sit there and own face. I somewhat dislike the use of /P though. I just like Flanking Strike for evading knockdowns while attacking.

Black powder, drops a small blinding patch around you that stops many enemies being able to hit you.

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Tulisin.6945:

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential.

I completely disagree. I’ve demonstrated S/D’s burst potential in my videos. I recently made this one:

regarding some fights on my current matchup. I think you’ll see some S/D burst in that video. =)

JakobGW.5730:

Tulisin.6945:

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential.

I completely disagree. I’ve demonstrated S/D’s burst potential in my videos. I recently made this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM-oafoSvjA

regarding some fights on my current matchup. I think you’ll see some S/D burst in that video. =)

Could you timestamp a specific situation in which you think S/D demonstrated burst capability? Perusing your video showed some excellent play, but no situation wherein S/D demonstrated burst capability on its own merits. Winning a fight does not demonstrate burst capability, nor does doing a lot of damage. Burst capability specifically points towards the ability to expend additional weapon resources to deal increased damage over a short timeframe. This is something P/P, D/P, D/D, and SB are capable of (although P/P’s burst is comparable to other weapon set’s sustained), but sword-based builds cannot do simply because the most powerful sword DPS skill, auto attack, is by nature a sustained capability.

Tulisin.6945:

Could you timestamp a specific situation in which you think S/D demonstrated burst capability? Perusing your video showed some excellent play, but no situation wherein S/D demonstrated burst capability on its own merits. Winning a fight does not demonstrate burst capability, nor does doing a lot of damage. Burst capability specifically points towards the ability to expend additional weapon resources to deal increased damage over a short timeframe. This is something P/P, D/P, D/D, and SB are capable of (although P/P’s burst is comparable to other weapon set’s sustained), but sword-based builds cannot do simply because the most powerful sword DPS skill, auto attack, is by nature a sustained capability.

I typically don’t like commenting on my own play, but because we appear to be having a civil discussion, I’ll discuss it. =)

I agree with two things you said: (1) winning doesn’t mean burst; and (2) burst is the ability to deal increased damage over short time.

I can guarantee you that I can kill faster than a thief with a short bow or duel pistols. I’m not sure why you think that a SB has burst and S/D doesn’t. I also kill a target around 3000 units away before a D/P, P/P or D/D could even get in range even when we both start the same distance away.

Any thief that can kill a target using C&D + steal + backstab, a S/D can equally kill using IS + steal + FS. This is typcially because the target’s health/defense is low enough that a simple 16k is enough to kill. The backstab thief could do 20k whereas the S/D thief does 18k. Both kill. Both use three abilities. Both kill in less than 2 seconds.

The Necro at 00:31 takes 19,600 damage in 2 seconds. The Engi at :43 takes 17,611 in 2 seconds. The Ranger at :55 takes 12,454 damage in less than 2 seconds and starts to run. The Necro at 1:29 takes 18,961 damage in 2 seconds. In one of my other videos a thief at 2:31 takes 13,593 damage and dies in one second, possibly less.

That, to me, is burst damage, and all while wielding a sword and a dagger using our agreed definition.

JakobGW.5730:

I can guarantee you that I can kill faster than a thief with a short bow or duel pistols. I’m not sure why you think that a SB has burst and S/D doesn’t.

SB has burst because you can burn initiative to shotgun cluster bombs for a limited period of time to achieve greater DPS than a sustained auto + bomb rotation.

Because, again, burst is not TTK (the metric by which kill speed is measured). Burst is entirely relative to the baseline damage set by the weapon set. If I can auto attack for terrible damage forever, but burst for merely bad damage for 30 seconds, that is still burst. Conversely, if I can auto attack for great damage forever, but can’t burst above that, I have no burst. “Lots of damage in a short period of time” isn’t burst by definition unless it is inherently unsustainable resource-consuming damage above and beyond the baseline. I think we’re just having a confusion of terms.

I’m liking my build. 0/30/30/10/0 right now. The key traits are in SA, Cloaked in Shadows, Shadowed Protector and Shadows Embrace. Utilities are Withdraw, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Signet of Shadows/Smoke Wall, Daggerstorm, and I’m currently wearing Valk gear. Haven’t thoroughly tested it in WvW, but it has been doing well enough in Dungeons. For offhands I switch between Sb, and P/P, and I use Air and Accuracy Sigils.

Alright, perhaps we don’t agree on the definition of “burst” then. lol

My simplified definition: burst damage is the ability to do large amounts of damage in a very short period of time.

I don’t care about initiative loss, baseline damage, auto attack chains, utility uses beyond the weapon set, etc. I only care whether or not my weapon set can dish a kitten ton of damage in a very short period of time. If it can, then I can do “burst damage.”

In my opinion, S/D can do simply that, and it can do it a lot better than some of your “burst damage” examples, such as SB and P/P.

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Hmmm… but using that logic, Mug isn’t inherent to your classic D/D “burst build” either (ie… other thief builds can use it), even though it’s an integral part of the C/D > steal > back stab chain.

brickforlife.1364:

If any of you thief pros can recommend me a build or some opinions, combos or tactics that’d be super.

I wouldn’t call myself “pro” but I have been fine tuning my S/D build for a while now. Here are the facts on my build.

Build:
25/30/15/0/0

Utilities:
- Shadow’s Refuge
- Roll for Initiative
- Signet of Shadow

Runes:
- Lyssa

Sigils:
- Paralyzation
- Peril

Key Traits:
- Side Strike
- Executioner
- Cloaked in Shadow

Main Stats:
- Critical Damage
- Condition Duration

Play style:
- The goal is control, not burst. The main stats insures that my Sword AA is crit-ing for 3k-4k (or more) by maintaining 10+ stacks of vulnerability debuff at all times.

- It is very important to anticipate your opponent’s movement so that you won’t waste your resources. Flanking Strike is not for damage — use it only to strip boons or evade attacks in case your endurance is low.

- Infiltrator strike is for positioning and evading. Always position your Shadow Return (white circle) behind your target by turning them around.

- Cloak and Dagger is for blinding (Trait: Cloaked in Shadows) a big attack.

- Basilisk Venom should only be used when target is below 50% for a smooth finish with Executioner and since using an Elite skill triggers Lyssa (6).

Optional:
- Remap your skills. I have the following keymaps;
1 – Steal
2 – CnD
3 – Flanking Strike (same)
4 – Hide in Shadows (or whatever heal skill you prefer)
Q – Roll for Initiative
E – Infiltrator’s Strike
F – Signet of Shadows

- Also I have been swtiching the 15 points between Acrobatics and Shadow Arts for quite sometime now and I still haven’t decided which one I prefer most. But so far, Shadow Arts works with my playstyle better because of Cloaked in Shadows. I miss Power of Inertia and Feline Grace from Acrobatics though. It’s up to your which you prefer most.

Disclaimer:
This is subject to change. In fact, I have changed this many many times already trying to find the sweet spot. This build will not fit everyone’s playstyle.

Hexalot.8194:

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Hmmm… but using that logic, Mug isn’t inherent to your classic D/D “burst build” either (ie… other thief builds can use it), even though it’s an integral part of the C/D > steal > back stab chain.

It doesn’t need to be specific to any build to be burst. Mug is a way to increase the burst potential of the S/D set, period. Your arguments are pointless.

Humorless.1573:

Hexalot.8194:

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Hmmm… but using that logic, Mug isn’t inherent to your classic D/D “burst build” either (ie… other thief builds can use it), even though it’s an integral part of the C/D > steal > back stab chain.

It doesn’t need to be specific to any build to be burst. Mug is a way to increase the burst potential of the S/D set, period. Your arguments are pointless.

Um… sounds like you are replying to the wrong guy. I was also disputing his assertion that Mug shouldn’t be included as part of a S/D burst build.

brickforlife.1364:

I haven’t been able to find much sword/dagger builds but I love the infiltrator’s strike as well as flanking strike and it’s really fun to use. I’m struggling to find a build for it because search bar comes up with months old builds or ones that don’t quite work out as the description says it. If any of you thief pros can recommend me a build or some opinions, combos or tactics that’d be super.

(Don’t convince me out of sword, I know it’s pretty mediocre but I’ll die before I do dagger/pistol backstab)

EDIT: I’m looking for for PvE and WvW

hello,

I recently asked a some question regarding S/D build on guildwars2guru forum, and I received some pretty decent info, here are some of the opinion:

User Phenn’s reply:
15/30/0/25/0 – Which, for any thief, is a really balanced loadout and makes the SB worth more than pure mobility.
0/30/25/15/0 – Which provides the stealth benefits toward Tactical Strike without sacrificing Feline Grace, but suffered in the recent patch.
10/30/0/0/30 – Which is, perhaps, the most powerful S/D build now that Revealed is longer. It makes the Sword’s AA hit like a semi (+25% damage when Initiative is full), allows for a ton of porting mobility (you’ll use Init solely for mobility and evasion), and makes Steal a formidable in-battle weapon (Mug, plus Fury, Swiftness, Might, Vigor, boon-strip, and Daze).

S/D is really no longer a viable stealth-daze-lock build, but can be very fun to play when you get your shadowstepping down. The Sword hits hard in general, and positioning takes the damage very, very high. It’s a great skirmishing set for smaller encounters, harassing capture points, and picking off strays. The root on InfS (Sword #2) is great for locking down escapees, and for holding opponents in AoE’s, etc. Played right, you’ll be incredibly hard-to-hit, and do a noticeable amount of consistent damage.

User NotKMoose’s reply:

I run complete glass cannon S/D build with alot of valkyrie and an ascended PTV amulet..

I have a base of 45% crit chance and 96% crit strike damage, and a 16ki ish health pool.. usually at 17k with food buffs.

Acrobatics tree works out very well with the natural evasion of S/D. To be honest with the removal of culling and reveal, I hardly ever use stealth unless its from my heal or to completely escape from an encounter.

Try out 10 30 0 15 15…

Traits are mug, 5% precision to vitality, extra crit attacking from behind, and executioner, fall damage trait in acrobatics, and thrill of the crime for the burst.

Playstyle is basically open up with sword 2, steal, sword 3 maybe if I need to dodge or just autoattack and keep porting in and out from sword 2, get your immobilize and one to two hits in with the sword and then port out. I move around ALOT, tons of dodging and dragging your opponents around… dropping a port, running in a direction, have them chase you, port back.

I will playing around each of those situation in WvW, I figure to give myself 1 to 2 weeks to decide which one i will stick with.

Hexalot.8194:

Humorless.1573:

Hexalot.8194:

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Hmmm… but using that logic, Mug isn’t inherent to your classic D/D “burst build” either (ie… other thief builds can use it), even though it’s an integral part of the C/D > steal > back stab chain.

It doesn’t need to be specific to any build to be burst. Mug is a way to increase the burst potential of the S/D set, period. Your arguments are pointless.

Um… sounds like you are replying to the wrong guy. I was also disputing his assertion that Mug shouldn’t be included as part of a S/D burst build.

Just commenting on the discussion and yours was the last post.

I’ve been playing S/D since October or so (pretty much once I started in WvW) and 10/30/30/0/0 is still a very viable build, even with revealed being 4s.

Pre-patch I could pretty much just roll through any sized group and take down a few people, 2v1 and 3v1 were not much of a challenge, and 1v1 was a joke. That was OP.

Post-patch the same build is just as much fun, but it takes a lot more patience. I can’t just run in and execute a combo and get a kill, I have to take my time and play off my opponent a little more. I find that a lot more fun.

Flanking strike has a nice spot at the end of an auto-attack chain now. The daze will last the auto-attack chain, then an FS will keep you untouched until revealed expires.

Infiltrator’s strike and shadowstep are still the bread and butter though. Any condition heavy opposition is a joke and any melee can be evaded indefinitely. You also become the best run down assassin in the game. Shadowstep → Infiltrator’s Strike → Steal will cover an insane amount of ground almost instantly.

Unfortunately, I don’t get the crazy amounts of kills I used to with this build, but it is a ton of fun to play and that’s what video games are for.

Scarn.6810:

I’ve been playing S/D since October or so (pretty much once I started in WvW) and 10/30/30/0/0 is still a very viable build, even with revealed being 4s.

Pre-patch I could pretty much just roll through any sized group and take down a few people, 2v1 and 3v1 were not much of a challenge, and 1v1 was a joke. That was OP.

Post-patch the same build is just as much fun, but it takes a lot more patience. I can’t just run in and execute a combo and get a kill, I have to take my time and play off my opponent a little more. I find that a lot more fun.

Flanking strike has a nice spot at the end of an auto-attack chain now. The daze will last the auto-attack chain, then an FS will keep you untouched until revealed expires.

Infiltrator’s strike and shadowstep are still the bread and butter though. Any condition heavy opposition is a joke and any melee can be evaded indefinitely. You also become the best run down assassin in the game. Shadowstep -> Infiltrator’s Strike -> Steal will cover an insane amount of ground almost instantly.

Unfortunately, I don’t get the crazy amounts of kills I used to with this build, but it is a ton of fun to play and that’s what video games are for.

you can. my s/d with backup d/p is the best dueling build a thief can have. that said the only thing that really hurts it is AOE/CC and range spike. thats why i run daggerstorm and not basiliks venom. personally bv only works on non thieves and non mesmers so too risky. i like DS as it gets me alot of back drops. i also use dancing dagger sometimes. running thru with your zerg…keep swining and running try hit everything once. dont need to focus on one person all the time.

I use two builds, a more offensive one http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|c.1g.hd.8.1g.h14|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h2|1c.a7.1c.a7.1c.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|2s.0.2s.0.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.2s.0|a3.u3ab.u45b.0.0|1b.2|59.5b.5c.5h.0|e

and here is a more defensive one
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|c.1g.hd.8.1g.h14|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h2|1c.a7.1c.a7.1c.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|2s.0.2s.0.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.2s.0|a3.a3.u46b.k69.0|1b.2|59.5b.5c.5h.0|e

Hexalot.8194:

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Hmmm… but using that logic, Mug isn’t inherent to your classic D/D “burst build” either (ie… other thief builds can use it), even though it’s an integral part of the C/D > steal > back stab chain.

Correct. The difference being that D/D, as a weapon set, has burst capability. D/D + Mug + tactics and traits, as a build, also has burst capability. S/D does not have burst capability, as a weapon set. S/D + Mug + tactics and traits, as a build, has burst capability. When you’re discussing the merits of a weapon set, you need to isolate the capabilities of that weapon set.

Travlane.5948:

you can. my s/d with backup d/p is the best dueling build a thief can have. that said the only thing that really hurts it is AOE/CC and range spike. thats why i run daggerstorm and not basiliks venom. personally bv only works on non thieves and non mesmers so too risky. i like DS as it gets me alot of back drops. i also use dancing dagger sometimes. running thru with your zerg…keep swining and running try hit everything once. dont need to focus on one person all the time.

I run daggerstorm as well. I’m definitely still working on how to best run in a zerg since everyone’s doing more of that now. Shortbow is great for the blast finisher and then I’ll switch back to S/D and try to hassle the stragglers.

I just love S/D, for the mobility, the build-in stunbreak and condition remove; even if flanking strike makes me cringe.
i ran 10/30/30/0/0 almost all the time and just recently dropped Deadly Arts to 0, cause i felt that 1 Mug+poison per fight just isnt worth it and tried to find something useful in Acrobatics or Trickery.
Right now (also with all the input from this thread) i have no clue anymore how i should trait. Thanks for that, guys ._.

guess i will have to do a lot of testing/roaming in the next time

Thanks for the help guys! Any comment on the viability of 10/30/30/0/0 and 10/30/0/0/30 in PVE situations? I’ve tried out 0/30/20/20/0 and 0/30/25/15/0 so far and they work out pretty good in pve and wvw.

Also, what’s your opinion on signet of malice?

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Hmmm… but using that logic, Mug isn’t inherent to your classic D/D “burst build” either (ie… other thief builds can use it), even though it’s an integral part of the C/D > steal > back stab chain.

Correct. The difference being that D/D, as a weapon set, has burst capability. D/D + Mug + tactics and traits, as a build, also has burst capability. S/D does not have burst capability, as a weapon set. S/D + Mug + tactics and traits, as a build, has burst capability. When you’re discussing the merits of a weapon set, you need to isolate the capabilities of that weapon set.

Mug is thief’s burst.. full stop..

brickforlife.1364:

Thanks for the help guys! Any comment on the viability of 10/30/30/0/0 and 10/30/0/0/30 in PVE situations? I’ve tried out 0/30/20/20/0 and 0/30/25/15/0 so far and they work out pretty good in pve and wvw.

Also, what’s your opinion on signet of malice?

I’ve tried quite a few builds in the past few weeks..

I went from 10 30 30 0 0 to 10 30 10 20 0 to 0 30 20 20 0 to 10 30 0 30 0 to 10 30 0 0 30..

In the end i can conclude i think 10 30 30 0 0 is the best.. you really need the regen from the SA line in any build pve or pvp.. i dont care that 30 in tricks makes your attacks hit like a truck or 30 in acrobatics make you more slippery..

in the end.. you are going to get hit.. somehow somewhere.. and a thief pulling out of a fight to recoup his hp.. is a thief doing 0 dps.. in SA you need the Cond removal AND shadow protector or shadow rejuv.. the last trait is whatever you want..

I also love mug.. so hence my preference to 10 30 30 0 0.. otherwise 0 30 20 20 0 would work too. (or 0 30 30 10 0)

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

Tulisin.6945:

Hexalot.8194:

iNaddict.8021:

Atherakhia.4086:

I personally love the playstyle behind sword/dagger. Playing it on my ranger was the main reason I decided to switch to Thief instead of stick to the Ranger. But I find the whole stealth mechanic with the weapon set kind of clunky. You don’t deal any real burst with it. Even with 100% crit chance from stealth, you can’t really find anything that’s worth using. It really needs a burst move of its own.

You can burst with sword dagger somewhat. moreso than dagger pistol..
of course it is not as good as dagger dagger burst.. i have switched to sword/dagger i love the playstyle and the inherent tricks that can be turned defensive or offensive. it is also not that Init hungry..

Yeah… have to agree that too many people under estimate the burst potential of S/D thieves.

S/D doesn’t have any burst potential. Popping Haste or Mug are not inherent to S/D, and it isn’t like you can spam FS to do burst damage. Sword auto damage isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have any sort of burst capability, it is permanently sustained. It is like saying that people underestimate how awesome P/P is with conditions because you can pop venom utilities.

Hmmm… but using that logic, Mug isn’t inherent to your classic D/D “burst build” either (ie… other thief builds can use it), even though it’s an integral part of the C/D > steal > back stab chain.

Correct. The difference being that D/D, as a weapon set, has burst capability. D/D + Mug + tactics and traits, as a build, also has burst capability. S/D does not have burst capability, as a weapon set. S/D + Mug + tactics and traits, as a build, has burst capability. When you’re discussing the merits of a weapon set, you need to isolate the capabilities of that weapon set.

Nobody gives a kitten. Traits are there to enhance weapon sets; S/D has burst potential with the right traits. Now get over yourself.

I’ve been messing around with 10/30/0/0/30 and it’s really strong and fun. Is it viable at all in pve though? I’m not too much of a fan of constantly switching traits, but if I have to then I will.

25/30/x/x/x is your max DPS setup for thief period – DA and CS give DPS stats and the best DPS traits including minors, and Thief has crap weapon traits, so no matter what weapons you use, 25/30/x/x/x will hit hardest. Put 15 points in Shadow Arts for Blind on stealth or cheaper Cloak and Dagger. Put 15 in Acrobatics for more survival from dodges and might or vigor bonuses. Put 15 into Trickery for more utility from your steals.

The question comes do you want to give up DPS for utility? And really, that boils down to your playstyle. For Sword, I personally wouldn’t drop off 30 Critical Strikes as that’s far too much of your DPS to let slip. And steal is a big part of a mobile build, so Mug becomes extra important for DPS. Thus I consider 10/30/x/x/x as a hard coded part of a Sword/Dagger build. So where do you put the 30 remaining points?

10/30/30/0/0 – CnD is part of your regular attack cycle and you use Hide in Shadows as your heal. Stealthing now becomes heals, blinds, a few might stacks, and either cheaper CnD or condition removal.

10/30/0/30/0 – CnD is more for escapes as dodges are your survival. With good initiative gain and might built up on those dodges, you still hit pretty hard and rely more heavily on those skills than auto attack.

10/30/0/0/30 – Steal is now not only mobility with a kick, but major utility too. It gives initiative, damage (Mug), Fury, Swiftness, Might, Vigor, boon-strip, and Daze. Auto-attack and steal is your DPS as your initiative is just for mobility and evasion (using initiative cuts your DPS as you now have two minors that boost you up to 25% damage just on the basis of your unused initiative). You could give up the daze on steal for 4 initiative on heal if you find yourself dipping below 6 initiative commonly.

Of course these are not the only options, as you can hybrid the utility:
- 10/30/0/20/10 has dodges with caltrops and very nice initiative gain with Quick Recovery and steal.
- 10/30/20/0/10 gives your stronger CnD with a steal that has 3 ini and Thrill of the Crime.
- 10/30/15/15/0 gives longer stealths that blind along with your dodges making a nice survival combo.

And that pretty much covers all the viable build options – 3 DPS build options with minor utility. 3 build options that specialize on a utility (stealth, initiative/dodges, steal). And 3 hybrid utility builds. Any other build options I’ve found to be ineffective, though 9 build options still is pretty impressive.

10/30/0/15/15 – Is quite fun with a s/d setup.

Scarn.6810:

Travlane.5948:

you can. my s/d with backup d/p is the best dueling build a thief can have. that said the only thing that really hurts it is AOE/CC and range spike. thats why i run daggerstorm and not basiliks venom. personally bv only works on non thieves and non mesmers so too risky. i like DS as it gets me alot of back drops. i also use dancing dagger sometimes. running thru with your zerg…keep swining and running try hit everything once. dont need to focus on one person all the time.

I run daggerstorm as well. I’m definitely still working on how to best run in a zerg since everyone’s doing more of that now. Shortbow is great for the blast finisher and then I’ll switch back to S/D and try to hassle the stragglers.

sword can hit more than 1 person while running thru with a zerg. but personally i like p/d 5 0 30 30 5 spec with bleed build. so much better bc even a zerg cant stop me with this build. i run daggerstorm. Shadowstep. Shadows refuge. and SoS/Blind powder which i switch before i go in battle. run 50% speed in steawlth.

urbanevil.7145:

10/30/0/15/15 – Is quite fun with a s/d setup.

short term. u need to run a lil more intiative management. i usually tell people choose between gaining extra intiative or extra dodges. dodges usualya re better than the 3 extra intiative. i like 10 20 20 20 0 for s/d choose 2 initiative per steaalth ….remove condis on stealth. 2 intiative per 10 secs. mug. furious retaliaition. vigor on roll.

this lets u dodge alot. keep intiative up for infiltrators strike and also lets you run d/p as a backup! which increases even more options. unfortunately thieves get screwed on a 2nd weaponset. so atleast with these 2 u can mesh both builds. use mug as a finisher/close to finisher. so much better like that. or u can use it at 60% or less to give poison to chop their heal by 33%

urbanevil.7145:

10/30/0/15/15 – Is quite fun with a s/d setup.

Sorry, but I find 10/30/0/20/10 to be much better. Why take 3 starting initiative over 2 initiative gain per 10s? A quick fight you’re not likely to eat all your initiative anyways, and a long fight the initiative gain wins hands down.

[EDIT]
@Travlane – I’m trying to understand your build option. The 5/0/30/30/5 – P/D doesn’t apply to this topic, so I’ll ignore that. The 10/20/20/20/0 is… what do you consider giving up 100 precision, 10% crit damage, first strikes and executioner for? That’s a major chunk of damage. While I agree the utility is nice, just not worth the DPS loss. I’d lean towards 10/30/15/15/0. If initiative is more important than the seconds of stealth, then 10/30/10/20/0. And if you want to heavily rely on the stealth, to just full blow it to 10/30/30/0/0 as that is better than 10/30/20/10/0. But I will argue dipping below 30 Critical Strikes unless your going condition even if it is to gain initiative – there are plenty of number crunches proving that 30 in Critical Strikes is better than initiative gain. You can already run heavily with “CnD > stealth attack > auto attack chain” with 30 in SA or Acrobatics.

I also don’t understand what you mean about “screwed on second weaponset”. Thieves have crap weapon traits, so all weapons fit the traits the same and it affects their DPS the same. Do you go off hand D/D for a burst? Do you go D/P for yet another mobility move and infinite stealth? Do you go SB for the AoE/mobility? S/P so you can have an interrupt/stun weapon group and a stealth/cripple/evade group for your sword? The only real options I don’t see as meshing with S/D is P/P — P/P has less DPS, no mobility, and less utility than S/P or D/P. And P/D as you’re usually not building for conditions with a Sword build.

Having 10/30/x/x/x IMO is totally gimping the damage of the Sword. I can’t make myself to pass up Exposed Weakness on top of keeping 10 stacks of Vulnerability. I guess you can change everything else, but if you want to actually kill something instead of just dancing around and hiding, 25 in DA and 30 in CS is a must.

S/D has enough mobility as it is that adding more dodges is simply overdoing it. And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

Lol Sir Vincent – with no real weapon traits, what weaponset doesn’t have it’s DPS lessened by doing anything other 25 DA 30 CS? It’s about fitting people’s playstyles a bit more and having fun. A 10/30/0/0/30 is actually pretty awesome – the DPS loss actually isn’t that bad as Fury and Lead Attacks plus stripping buffs can help close it. Having a super steal is fun and can turn fights you would have lost in your favor (I’ve completely screwed Guardians with it). It’s giving up a small chunk of DPS for very nice utility. The others might be more debatable – for example 10/30/30/0/0 might be better off with D/D over S/D – is the ability to spam dodge and shadow steps with a 10/30/0/30/0 really needed? – etc – but if that’s how you have fun and succeed playing, more power to you. I’m just hoping my build suggestions can help people fit their playstyle and be a little more effective at it.

S/D has enough mobility as it is that adding more dodges is simply overdoing it. And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

do you have an actual argument why trickery is apparently so bad for S/D?

Drawing Guy.3701:

urbanevil.7145:

10/30/0/15/15 – Is quite fun with a s/d setup.

Sorry, but I find 10/30/0/20/10 to be much better. Why take 3 starting initiative over 2 initiative gain per 10s? A quick fight you’re not likely to eat all your initiative anyways, and a long fight the initiative gain wins hands down.

[EDIT]
@Travlane – I’m trying to understand your build option. The 5/0/30/30/5 – P/D doesn’t apply to this topic, so I’ll ignore that. The 10/20/20/20/0 is… what do you consider giving up 100 precision, 10% crit damage, first strikes and executioner for? That’s a major chunk of damage. While I agree the utility is nice, just not worth the DPS loss. I’d lean towards 10/30/15/15/0. If initiative is more important than the seconds of stealth, then 10/30/10/20/0. And if you want to heavily rely on the stealth, to just full blow it to 10/30/30/0/0 as that is better than 10/30/20/10/0. But I will argue dipping below 30 Critical Strikes unless your going condition even if it is to gain initiative – there are plenty of number crunches proving that 30 in Critical Strikes is better than initiative gain. You can already run heavily with “CnD > stealth attack > auto attack chain” with 30 in SA or Acrobatics.

I also don’t understand what you mean about “screwed on second weaponset”. Thieves have crap weapon traits, so all weapons fit the traits the same and it affects their DPS the same. Do you go off hand D/D for a burst? Do you go D/P for yet another mobility move and infinite stealth? Do you go SB for the AoE/mobility? S/P so you can have an interrupt/stun weapon group and a stealth/cripple/evade group for your sword? The only real options I don’t see as meshing with S/D is P/P — P/P has less DPS, no mobility, and less utility than S/P or D/P. And P/D as you’re usually not building for conditions with a Sword build.

Im at work, but i will look into what u said, makes sense!