Sword + Pistol seem a bit weak
S/P is best for groups of three-five in an AoE, combined with signet of malice, you just spam pistol whip and easily out heal the damage they can do to you. The blind it provides as well is amazing utility when you get into a tense situation or feel like being a pseudo tank.
It also provides you with a ranged interrupt as well as a melee one. It has the best sustained damage of any thief weapon combo, but it also has the least control, it more of a wood chipper for PvE mobs to clear them fast with constant high damage attacks and ridiculous HPS with SoM.
So what would be the optimal build (aside SoM) for Pistol/Sword (using pistol/pistol as the alternative weapons)?
I have the opposite from you, at low levels I’d use dual daggers / dual pistols every time, I didn’t like the sword, but at 50+ (maybe sooner, can’t recall) I started loving pistol whip, and the sword AoE, at lvl 80 I can’t use anything besides that in pve (I’m not talking about pvp, but probably daggers are better for melee there).
I tried every possible weapon combination, and whatever choice of traits I could think of, and still doing a TON more damage with weapon+pistol than every other weapon in pve, also at high lvls, if you go solo like I did (cleared 93% of the map so far, including all pve maps, just have some wvw left to discover), you’d need SoM (no option there) if you want to survive, since you’ll be fighting groups all the time (specially in personal quests, but also while exploring the maps, lvl 70-80 and 80 maps are quite crowded with undead and other nasty beings…).
I’m talking about doing 3000 damage with 1 pistol whip, while doing less than 1000 with any other dual-weapon skill (except for unload, that deals about 1500), heartseeker, or whatever other weapon skill. Add that to the fact that swords do AoE damage, while daggers and pistol hit only 1 target at a time (except for death blossom, that would be great, but the poison damage needs time and you normally don’t have it when 5 undead surrounds you).
The only other weapon that deals as much damage (and AoE) to me is shortbow , if you go melee and spam detonate cluster bomb all the time, but you don’t heal as much as you do with a sword (9 hits per target with pistol whip, does heal a lot, and shortbow is slower with normal (1st key) hits), and don’t stun (which can be critical if you’re fighting a veteran).
I really tried all other weapon combinations, but at high lvls I can only do sword+pistol, and dual pistols for bosses if I can’t stay on melee
If your going S/P put 30 in critical strikes. The damage from S/P comes from Pistol Whip. Higher your crit higher your PW hits. Putting 30 in Deadly Arts increases your power.
Jump in with Infiltrators strike followed by PW. If you start to get into trouble use infiltrators strike to get away from combat. In PvE its easy to land PW on your target as they are mobs and not actual players. In Pvp its a bit tricky. That’s why you have to anticipate your targets movement and try get ahead and also using Devour Venoms helps. Full on glass cannon S/P also take Haste, but use it wisely, you will lose all your endurance.
At the end of the day it takes time to get used to. If you can get tthe timing of PW correct you will be laughing at the damage you will be producing.
RP enthusiast
Forgot to say, the only thing I miss from using S+P is the lack of a combo finisher or field
Forgot to say, the only thing I miss from using S+P is the lack of a combo finisher or field
This, otherwise its a great control, damage and tank! setup.
The Iron Triangle – Desolation
Leina Shade | Svea Lightbringer | Maximus Ironhide | Mara Deathblossom
Leina Shade | Svea Lightbringer | Maximus Ironhide | Mara Deathblossom
Slot 3 – Pistol whip has much much more utility than heartseeker. It’s an interrupt, a snare, applies multiple stacks of conditions, does aoe damage, evades some incoming attacks and has dependable damage regardless of enemies health level. In these ways its like a less hibbity hoppity around version of heartseeker and leaping death blossom combined.
Slot 2 – since death blossoms multi-hit, evade, and aoe is covered by 3, that leaves 2 open for another skill. Infiltrators strike. A very dependable get out of jail free card, that ignores snares. The Dagger/Dagger substitute is 5, which stealths you and inflicts a condition, but does nothing to help you if you are snared, stunned, poisoned, crippled, or bleeding. You are invisible and likely dying slowly or just stuck in place.
A nearly 100% safe combo for thieves in PvE is short bow disabling shot(3) to slow and space, a few arrows to apply venom (utility + 1), weapon swap and infiltrator strike(2) in for two pistol whips(3,3), shadow return (2), and weapon swap back to short bow to finish off or recharge initiative on boss mobs.
Slot 4 – Dancing daggers is nice but they are sort of like short bow – lite. You already have a ranged set of either pistol/pistol or shortbow. And if you are runed out efficiently your main set off-hand procs an effect or enhances your next attack on swap. So why use a ranged attack shoe-horned on to a melee weapon rather than just swap sets for huge gain? A pistol offhand gives you headshot, and lets you chain daze enemies, which is especially useful on veterans. Over-all much more useful than flipping a dagger at them.
Slot 5 – We already went over the risk with vanilla cloak and dagger. In PvP this skill is a kitten good reason to take a dagger off-hand because of the amount of harassment you can do with it. But its meant to be an evasion skill and it’s horrible at evading PvE AI and mitigating damage.
Not when the alternative for another set is the god-like infiltrators strike, with black powder in the 5 slot. Black powder is an AOE blind and creates a smoke combo field. Another great combination, if you have been in the thick of things for too long or just forgot to set infiltrators (2) and need to get out is Black powder (5), short bow weapon swap, disabling shot (3). If you haven’t been paying attention, that is AOE blinding enemies, moving away to safety while simultaneously shooting through your own combo field and AOE blinding again.
tl;dr: d/d – Anything is flashy and fun. But s/p – shortbow gives you more options and flexibility, still does respectable damage, and provides much higher survivability.
Note: I was comparing plain Jane skills here. I know that proper traiting can make up for some of d/d’s short comings. Namely Cloak and Dagger. But I prefer my traits to level up my utilities and attacks without having to bring them up to par first.
The Kismet
Dragonbrand
Dragonbrand
(edited by AcidicVision.5498)
So what would be the optimal build (aside SoM) for Pistol/Sword (using pistol/pistol as the alternative weapons)?
Sword/pistol requires just raw power and precision. you’ll want to spec into the first 2 lines rather than the last 2, though speccing 20 points into acrobatics is still worthwhile for the trait that gives 2 initiative per 10s which really helps as S/P is probably the most expensive weapon set to use.
I go 20/30/0/20/0 for my spec at 80 with S/P. major traits to look into with it are dual skill 5% more damage, vulnerability on crits, quickness on crits, 20% more damage for targets under 50%, and 2 initiative per 10s
The benefits of sword/pistol?
1. Frontal arc aoe
2. Spammable 2 way shadowstep
3. This also doubles as a spammable condition removal
4. decent melee survivability provided the mob can be blinded, some survivability via pistol whip’s stun and evade, autoattack weakness.
5. spamming cripple on targets that are trying to flee, with your shadowstep also giving immobilize for more control.
6. Ranged and melee interupts
7. Smoke field that blinds (can be exploited for stealth by blast finishers or leap finishers)
8. Excellent synergy with Signet of Malice. Pistol Whip hits 9 times and can hit several targets at once, provided things aren’t 1-2 shotting you you can stay topped off just by hitting enemies.
9. Excellent synergy with any effect that causes quickness (haste, rage sigils, critical strikes 20 point trait, mesmer time warp), you can get off pistol whip in less than a second causing massive burst damage, you can get off 2 pistol whips in a haste for a good 16k+ damage.
the negatives are:
1. No damaging conditions, condition damage doesn’t help.
2. No secondary weapon set that benefits from an exlusively power/precision/crit damage build, all of them require condition damage for optimal performance with the exception of sword/dagger which leaves you with no ranged option.
3. Pistol whip has a very obvious animation and has a cast time before the stun, and will root you during the sword swings Using against skilled opponents in PVP will probably result in you getting stomped as they avoid the stun, get behind you and mop the floor with you while you’re rooted.
4. In normal PVE it can get boring as your bread and butter skill is to spam pistol whip.
For gear I use berserker’s sword and pistol, but use rampagers (power/precision/condition damage) for armor and jewellry, as my offset is pistol/pistol or shortbow (depending on whether it’s an aoe situation or single target) which require some condition damage to be effective. It does lower my burst damage some however it increases my crit chance some to compensate and if I am forced to use ranged weapons I end up doing better than i would in full berserker’s. Insignias your option for the sword would be either force, air, fire, or maybe nullification/purification could be good too. In the offhand pistol I like the rage sigil, it procs at least once a fight
if you’re good at timing, you can use pistol whip to interrupt attacks rather than dodging them, and you can evade subsequent attacks during the animation.
Zapp – 80 Asura Afromancer
(edited by Devildoc.6721)
My build is similar to DevilDoc’s. 30/30/0/10/0. Im stacked for precision/condition damage on my armor with 4 major infiltration runes, one major vamp and one major balth. Power/prec on my accessories. Earth runes in my weapons to cause bleed on crit (since I aoe crit almost all the time) and major sigil of corruption on my offhand.
Im not sure that build would be viable at all with p/p, since you need to trait into ricochet and short-bow gets it for free. Or with d/d since your best way to aoe stack bleeds would be leaping death blossom and that’s unsafe without again re-allocating traits or wasting utility slots.
The Kismet
Dragonbrand
Dragonbrand
Forgot to say, the only thing I miss from using S+P is the lack of a combo finisher or field
Technically the pistol skill #5 is both combo field + combo finisher in one skill. It lays down a smoke field and then immediately fires a projectile finisher through it, which is why the attack blinds your foe. You can fire off pistol skil #4 from inside your smoke field and you will both daze and blind your target as you combo again.
But S/P is fairly lacking aside from skill #5. I like to use S/P and then run D/D on weapon swap. I can use pistol skill #5 to lay down a smoke field and then I have 4 options as finishers:
1) Pistol skill #4 for a projectile finisher that blinds the target
2) D/D skill #2 for a leap finisher that will stealth me as I leap to my target
3) D/D skill #3 for a whirl finisher that will fling blinding bolts at all foes in the area
4) D/D skill #4 for a projectile finisher that will blind my target and bounce to multiple foes
For option #4, I’ve never checked, but does the blinding effect only apply to the first target, or will all targets the dagger bounces to be blinded?
This really is my bread-and-butter for tight groups of small numbers of mobs or single targets. Unfortunately, I find myself having to range a lot, and out of necessity I use a shortbow in that situation. But Pistol Whip is such a hugely powerful skill, it’s worth using this combination over any other, imho. Plus, I still have fun things I can do on my other skills (I leap around a battlefield like crazy, trying to avoid ever spending too long in one spot)
If anything, S/P is the strongest and most balanced melee set. Pistol Whip kills, even with the somewhat slow animation. You also have a ranged interrput, a gap closer with an immobilize, a blind field, and an amazing #1 skill. In sPvP, you only need Haste to make PW work. Trust me.
Technically the pistol skill #5 is both combo field + combo finisher in one skill. It lays down a smoke field and then immediately fires a projectile finisher through it, which is why the attack blinds your foe. You can fire off pistol skil #4 from inside your smoke field and you will both daze and blind your target as you combo again.
Yes, I guess I was meaning about the sword by itself not having finisher/field (if at least you could trigger the darkness field from #5, or someone else’s field, with some sword attack, as you can do if you have pistol or dagger in the main hand…)
My build is similar to DevilDoc’s. 30/30/0/10/0. Im stacked for precision/condition damage on my armor with 4 major infiltration runes, one major vamp and one major balth. Power/prec on my accessories. Earth runes in my weapons to cause bleed on crit (since I aoe crit almost all the time) and major sigil of corruption on my offhand.
Im not sure that build would be viable at all with p/p, since you need to trait into ricochet and short-bow gets it for free. Or with d/d since your best way to aoe stack bleeds would be leaping death blossom and that’s unsafe without again re-allocating traits or wasting utility slots.
Nah, you use pistol pistol when fighting bosses that would 1 shot you, unload spam and using any stealth effects you have to stack some bleeds. Shadow Refuge is just about necessary if you use pistol/pistol and is a good skill for group support to boot. You lay it out, use your autoattack sneak shot, roll out, unload through a dark field for lifesteal, then go back in to restealth and put some more bleeds on.
If there’s any less than 3 mobs I wince if I accidentally have a shortbow equipped since its single target damage is pitiful.
Zapp – 80 Asura Afromancer
Yes S/P is weak! It is horrible don`t use it! Please more thiefs go D/D in WvW and spam HS all the way, you will kill everything!
Cal Dae | Tainted | Piken Square
Hey thanks for all the kind advice. I’m trying it now again ( I hit lvl 60 ) and it’s ok, but as far as PVE goes I still consider the daggers, superior mainly due to the fact that I can take down mobs much higher than me without taking much damage, just by using LDB and kiting.
I’m curious as to how you kite with DD?
The Iron Hall [HALL] [Desolation] Join Now!
It’s kind of “Eeeehhhhhhh.”
It does a good deal of damage, but it’s only close range and worst of all doesn’t have any blinding attacks.
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I’m curious as to how you kite with DD?
Death blossom causes massive bleeding. Some enemies can be killed with one of those alone.
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Swords are very underpowered for Thief. Ironically enough, Pistol Whip (Sword/Pistol) is the strongest move the Thief can use up until a Heartseeker crit on someone below 33% Health.
If anything, Swords need a buff except for that one dual skill I just mentioned. Even then, the stun doesn’t last long enough on a target, so if you used it in PvP, you’d be missing half of the damage because they’d move away from you.
you may be noticing a big difference due to your other stats, not just the weapons themselves.
Sword+Pistol attacks scale very heavily with Power and Crit. more so then daggers. Dual Daggers has noticeably more condition damage (bleeds on Death Blossom, Poison on auto-attack 3rd strike). if you want to optimize damage for Sword+Pistol get as much Power + Precision as possible and exclude condition damage.
there is also the matter of your own technique and trait builds for this. Sword + Pistol tends to use the auto-attack chain for damage more than any other weapon set so it will, in general, have a nice full initiative bar. its a really good idea to take advantage of having a damage source that doesn’t use initiative by spending your init on Black Powder spam instead. you can easily fight mobs in groups of 3 at a time while taking no damage by keeping them blinded like this.
I’m curious as to how you kite with DD?
Pull with the ranged dagger throw, let the mobs move in close proximity of each other then start spamming LDB, when initiative runs out, dodge out of there (helps if you got acrobatics and the caltrops-on-dodge trait), then run around, if some mobs are too fast use your snare, when you get enough initiative use LDB again to keep bleeds up and keep moving. I’m not saying it always works, just most of the time.
What trait builds are good for S/P? I’ve seen a lot of people mention going 30 in critical strikes, is 0/30/0/25/15 any good for a PVE build?