Guild Wars 2

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 5s of Protection and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear. (The protection and revealed applied by this trait will not apply when protection is already on the character, this is to prevent boon stacking and the fact that if the pirate is not in melee, he should not gain any benefit from running away.)

This trait allows for a “duelist” type thief who mostly focuses less on stealth and more on staying alive with sustain, the protection allows him to sustain melee combat with other classes, but he is also revealed as well so he cannot stealth as long as he has this protection.

Note: It would also be very nice is sword skills were more fluid like ranger attacks, and had more fluid looking animations, we don’t rely on brute force like warriors, we should be attacking with our movement and body, not just our arms.

Another Note: I would also like to add, that I love pirates, and I would like to see more pirate thieves then ninja thieves…

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Your best idea yet though.

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

What he said. Perhaps in stead of protection add passive non-boon regen based on initiative like the warrior trait that regenerates HP relative to adrenaline? This makes sure you’re still relying on the thief’s superior mobility, and rewards the mobility and smart tactical strikes while playing mostly visible than just spamming down to zero initiative all the time.

Considering sword is all about smart tactical strikes I feel like a trait as game changing as this should encourage selective ability use and discourage init dumping.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

What he said. Perhaps in stead of protection add passive non-boon regen based on initiative like the warrior trait that regenerates HP relative to adrenaline? This makes sure you’re still relying on the thief’s superior mobility, and rewards the mobility and smart tactical strikes while playing mostly visible than just spamming down to zero initiative all the time.

Thieves have Regeneration in stealth already, thats already a play-style thief has, this play-style is non-stealthy, you arn’t in stealth and you cannot gain stealth, its very active because (especially in pvp.) you don’t have stealth anymore, so you can’t rely on culling or anything to win, just your evades and shadowsteps.

You have to be smart, if you do need to stealth, and you have this trait, you can’t, so you will have to stop attacking and wait 5 seconds to stealth again, if you keep attacking mindlessly you will keep getting the revealed debuff.

So its very tactical.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

What he said. Perhaps in stead of protection add passive non-boon regen based on initiative like the warrior trait that regenerates HP relative to adrenaline? This makes sure you’re still relying on the thief’s superior mobility, and rewards the mobility and smart tactical strikes while playing mostly visible than just spamming down to zero initiative all the time.

Thieves have Regeneration in stealth already, thats already a play-style thief has, this play-style is non-stealthy, you arn’t in stealth and you cannot gain stealth, its very active because (especially in pvp.) you don’t have stealth anymore, so you can’t rely on culling or anything to win, just your evades and shadowsteps.

You don’t have regen in stealth with this particular trait though. That’s the point I think. It’s the “non stealth” trait. This buffs that type of build while making it synergize less with its anti-build (the stealth healing tactical striker)

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

What he said. Perhaps in stead of protection add passive non-boon regen based on initiative like the warrior trait that regenerates HP relative to adrenaline? This makes sure you’re still relying on the thief’s superior mobility, and rewards the mobility and smart tactical strikes while playing mostly visible than just spamming down to zero initiative all the time.

Thieves have Regeneration in stealth already, thats already a play-style thief has, this play-style is non-stealthy, you arn’t in stealth and you cannot gain stealth, its very active because (especially in pvp.) you don’t have stealth anymore, so you can’t rely on culling or anything to win, just your evades and shadowsteps.

You don’t have regen in stealth with this particular trait though. That’s the point I think. It’s the “non stealth” trait.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9oMFvlmMFvlm9Mx9Mcmq

That build is already available, and it would be 100x better in your scenario because they cannot see you, so why even have the trait then if its going to be much much worse then whats already available, protection is needed because you cannot stealth.

Protection is much more powerful then regeneration, and it should be… rightfully so, you cannot stealth, thieves have almost no defense out of stealth.

Shadowy Protector used to give thieves protection, but it was changed to regeneration due to its overpoweredness combined with stealth…

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

What he said. Perhaps in stead of protection add passive non-boon regen based on initiative like the warrior trait that regenerates HP relative to adrenaline? This makes sure you’re still relying on the thief’s superior mobility, and rewards the mobility and smart tactical strikes while playing mostly visible than just spamming down to zero initiative all the time.

Thieves have Regeneration in stealth already, thats already a play-style thief has, this play-style is non-stealthy, you arn’t in stealth and you cannot gain stealth, its very active because (especially in pvp.) you don’t have stealth anymore, so you can’t rely on culling or anything to win, just your evades and shadowsteps.

You don’t have regen in stealth with this particular trait though. That’s the point I think. It’s the “non stealth” trait.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9oMFvlmMFvlm9Mx9Mcmq

That build is already available, and it would be 100x better because they cannot see you, so why even have the trait then if its going to be much much worse then whats already available, protection is needed because you cannot stealth.

Because it wouldn’t be worse if the “You can’t stealth hardly ever” trait had passive regen to actively reward periods of dancing as well as stealthing rewards being unseen. Heck, tack on a little but of endurance gain on crit while you’re at it to really hammer home the non-stealth nature of the trait and make it a viable build enabler.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

What he said. Perhaps in stead of protection add passive non-boon regen based on initiative like the warrior trait that regenerates HP relative to adrenaline? This makes sure you’re still relying on the thief’s superior mobility, and rewards the mobility and smart tactical strikes while playing mostly visible than just spamming down to zero initiative all the time.

Thieves have Regeneration in stealth already, thats already a play-style thief has, this play-style is non-stealthy, you arn’t in stealth and you cannot gain stealth, its very active because (especially in pvp.) you don’t have stealth anymore, so you can’t rely on culling or anything to win, just your evades and shadowsteps.

You don’t have regen in stealth with this particular trait though. That’s the point I think. It’s the “non stealth” trait.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9oMFvlmMFvlm9Mx9Mcmq

That build is already available, and it would be 100x better because they cannot see you, so why even have the trait then if its going to be much much worse then whats already available, protection is needed because you cannot stealth.

Because it wouldn’t be worse if the “You can’t stealth hardly ever” trait had passive regen to actively reward periods of dancing as well as stealthing rewards being unseen. Heck, tack on a little but of endurance gain on crit while you’re at it to really hammer home the non-stealth nature of the trait and make it a viable build enabler.

Stealth users also have access to dodge as well, with Traits that give them a lot of regeneration and condition removal. This would offer protection, but no stealth or condition removal or regeneration.

With your build your speaking of, it would be more sense if it was like this:
“applie 3 seconds of confusion on critical hit with a sword or spear.” – This means dagger storm and other skills won’t proc it, its obviously an overpowered trait, but it would go moreso with the evades thing you said before, which thief needs more of, evasion type benefitting skills.

This would make evades and such for a thief much more powerful, because they damage themselves each time they miss the thief.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

inb4 bunker thief.
inb4 needacondtspectokillthisthief.
inb4 hekeepsremovingmyflippingcondis.

Looks at Guardian Board.
Comes back here.

What?

What he said. Perhaps in stead of protection add passive non-boon regen based on initiative like the warrior trait that regenerates HP relative to adrenaline? This makes sure you’re still relying on the thief’s superior mobility, and rewards the mobility and smart tactical strikes while playing mostly visible than just spamming down to zero initiative all the time.

Thieves have Regeneration in stealth already, thats already a play-style thief has, this play-style is non-stealthy, you arn’t in stealth and you cannot gain stealth, its very active because (especially in pvp.) you don’t have stealth anymore, so you can’t rely on culling or anything to win, just your evades and shadowsteps.

You don’t have regen in stealth with this particular trait though. That’s the point I think. It’s the “non stealth” trait.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9oMFvlmMFvlm9Mx9Mcmq

That build is already available, and it would be 100x better because they cannot see you, so why even have the trait then if its going to be much much worse then whats already available, protection is needed because you cannot stealth.

Because it wouldn’t be worse if the “You can’t stealth hardly ever” trait had passive regen to actively reward periods of dancing as well as stealthing rewards being unseen. Heck, tack on a little but of endurance gain on crit while you’re at it to really hammer home the non-stealth nature of the trait and make it a viable build enabler.

Stealth users also have access to dodge as well, with Traits that give them a lot of regeneration and condition removal. This would offer protection, but no stealth or condition removal or regeneration.

Right. My thinking is that protection makes soaking hits easier, and a trait like this seems like it should be less about soaking hits and more about not taking them. Protection doesn’t reward not taking hits as well as an initiative scaled passive health gain would.

With protection you just take less damage, but with the init-scaled regen idea you’d actively be healing for more the less you attacked, creating a much more interesting dynamic, and encouraging avoiding damage more than simply soaking it.

Tell me what you think of my idea above.

It doesnt make much sense. It only benefits pistol whip build, which already has a evade built into the pistol whip skill already. Plus, it eliminates the proper use of HIS, which is the only reliable cond remover on a build without shadow embrace. And would make SR tricky to use. A PW with high crit chance will generate a lot of revealed debuff, denying use of both HIS and SR, and to the ones that use it, Blinding Power utility. I wouldnt use it.

Eduardo.4675:

It doesnt make much sense. It only benefits pistol whip build, which already has a evade built into the pistol whip skill already. Plus, it eliminates the proper use of HIS, which is the only reliable cond remover on a build without shadow embrace. And would make SR tricky to use. A PW with high crit chance will generate a lot of revealed debuff, denying use of both HIS and SR, and to the ones that use it, Blinding Power utility. I wouldnt use it.

Actually, it states that its 5s and 5s of revealed, and it won’t proc again if you already have protection, meaning it won’t matter if you use Flanking Strike or PW, it won’t generate anymore or less protection. Flanking Strike has an evade as well.

CnD is a dagger attack, so it won’t proc this trait, so if you wait 5 seconds, use CnD when ya need condition removal and stealth it would still work.

Daecollo.9578:

Tell me what you think of my idea above.

Its definately interesting (the confusion on crit) in that it creates a much more offensive rather than defensive setup for a theoretical “non-stealth” trait, but do you think that, combined with sword’s other shutdown abilities and the increased damage output of this trait might be slightly much?

I admit the idea of a sword-based condition build using such a setup sounds hilarious, but I wonder if giving thieves that much confusion would step on mesmers too much.

Then again they stole some of our stealth. Might be fair.

What about blind on crit?

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Tell me what you think of my idea above.

Its definately interesting (the confusion on crit) in that it creates a much more offensive rather than defensive setup for a theoretical “non-stealth” trait, but do you think that, combined with sword’s other shutdown abilities and the increased damage output of this trait might be slightly much?

I admit the idea of a sword-based condition build using such a setup sounds hilarious, but I wonder if giving thieves that much confusion would step on mesmers too much.

Then again they stole some of our stealth. Might be fair.

What about blind on crit?

Black Powder? Cloaked in Shadow? We already have that. Lol.

Confusion is the only condition that punishes people from missing and evading you, and its not like the Sword has a Bleed on it or poison like daggers, so it would only be able to apply the confusion condition, Mesmers can do Confusion + Bleeding.

Confusion on Sword-critical would be the ultimate anti-bunker setup though, and probably very fun to play, especially against people who stack prot/tough/vit or elementalists who spam there abilities and seem invincible.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Tell me what you think of my idea above.

Its definately interesting (the confusion on crit) in that it creates a much more offensive rather than defensive setup for a theoretical “non-stealth” trait, but do you think that, combined with sword’s other shutdown abilities and the increased damage output of this trait might be slightly much?

I admit the idea of a sword-based condition build using such a setup sounds hilarious, but I wonder if giving thieves that much confusion would step on mesmers too much.

Then again they stole some of our stealth. Might be fair.

What about blind on crit?

Black Powder? Cloaked in Shadow? We already have that. Lol.

Confusion is the only condition that punishes people from missing and evading you, and its not like the Sword has a Bleed on it or poison like daggers, so it would only be able to apply the confusion condition, Mesmers can do Confusion + Bleeding.

True, but blinding powder is extremely temporary and cloaked in shadow is… well… a stealth trait. Confusion punishes people when they hit you as well, so it might be a little off-theme. Blind on crit might by a little more thematic with the sword and actually prevent you from taking hits. It’s basically bizarro-aegis and is really good at mitigating damage, but takes some finesse and skill to use properly which would seem pretty on-theme with the “skilled fencer” idea of the trait.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Tell me what you think of my idea above.

Its definately interesting (the confusion on crit) in that it creates a much more offensive rather than defensive setup for a theoretical “non-stealth” trait, but do you think that, combined with sword’s other shutdown abilities and the increased damage output of this trait might be slightly much?

I admit the idea of a sword-based condition build using such a setup sounds hilarious, but I wonder if giving thieves that much confusion would step on mesmers too much.

Then again they stole some of our stealth. Might be fair.

What about blind on crit?

Black Powder? Cloaked in Shadow? We already have that. Lol.

Confusion is the only condition that punishes people from missing and evading you, and its not like the Sword has a Bleed on it or poison like daggers, so it would only be able to apply the confusion condition, Mesmers can do Confusion + Bleeding.

True, but blinding powder is extremely temporary and cloaked in shadow is… well… a stealth trait. Confusion punishes people when they hit you as well, so it might be a little off-theme. Blind on crit might by a little more thematic with the sword and actually prevent you from taking hits. It’s basically bizarro-aegis and is really good at mitigating damage, but takes some finesse and skill to use properly which would seem pretty on-theme with the “skilled fencer” idea of the trait.

S/D has Cloaked in Shadow.
S/P has Black Powder.

They are both very good at blinding the opponent, but blind on critical is and sounds very OP, and just would not be practical in PvE where bosses just completely ignore blinds, it also makes evasion less good, and makes you rely more on attacks, if I could blind on critical, I would just attack, why should I evade?

If I blinded on critical, why use cloaked in shadow or black powder? I could just attack.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Tell me what you think of my idea above.

Its definately interesting (the confusion on crit) in that it creates a much more offensive rather than defensive setup for a theoretical “non-stealth” trait, but do you think that, combined with sword’s other shutdown abilities and the increased damage output of this trait might be slightly much?

I admit the idea of a sword-based condition build using such a setup sounds hilarious, but I wonder if giving thieves that much confusion would step on mesmers too much.

Then again they stole some of our stealth. Might be fair.

What about blind on crit?

Black Powder? Cloaked in Shadow? We already have that. Lol.

Confusion is the only condition that punishes people from missing and evading you, and its not like the Sword has a Bleed on it or poison like daggers, so it would only be able to apply the confusion condition, Mesmers can do Confusion + Bleeding.

True, but blinding powder is extremely temporary and cloaked in shadow is… well… a stealth trait. Confusion punishes people when they hit you as well, so it might be a little off-theme. Blind on crit might by a little more thematic with the sword and actually prevent you from taking hits. It’s basically bizarro-aegis and is really good at mitigating damage, but takes some finesse and skill to use properly which would seem pretty on-theme with the “skilled fencer” idea of the trait.

S/D has Cloaked in Shadow.
S/P has Black Powder.

They are both very good at blinding the opponent, but blind on critical is and sounds very OP, and just would not be practical in PvE where bosses just completely ignore blinds.

Truth. How about in stead of confusion on crit… something like “Your sword skills now apply confusion.”

This wouldn’t apply to the auto so potentially a little longer confusion duration could be used. Basically you’d be forcing your opponent to trade blows in a sort of rythm with you in stead of just stacking a lot of confusion and using it as a shutdown like mesmers do.

Daecollo.9578:

Eduardo.4675:

It doesnt make much sense. It only benefits pistol whip build, which already has a evade built into the pistol whip skill already. Plus, it eliminates the proper use of HIS, which is the only reliable cond remover on a build without shadow embrace. And would make SR tricky to use. A PW with high crit chance will generate a lot of revealed debuff, denying use of both HIS and SR, and to the ones that use it, Blinding Power utility. I wouldnt use it.

Actually, it states that its 5s and 5s of revealed, and it won’t proc again if you already have protection, meaning it won’t matter if you use Flanking Strike or PW, it won’t generate anymore or less protection. Flanking Strike has an evade as well.

CnD is a dagger attack, so it won’t proc this trait, so if you wait 5 seconds, use CnD when ya need condition removal and stealth it would still work.

Really? And how am i gonna use proper tactical strike control build if i generate revealed debuff constantly with sword attacks, which are the dps of a S/D spec? This doesnt serve a S/D spec. Only a PW spec, which has no cond removal outside of HIS and Shadowstep, with the latter being very poor at it. That was my point. Deny stealth and you are conditioned in your usage of HIS or Shadow Embrace.

Eduardo.4675:

It doesnt make much sense. It only benefits pistol whip build, which already has a evade built into the pistol whip skill already. Plus, it eliminates the proper use of HIS, which is the only reliable cond remover on a build without shadow embrace. And would make SR tricky to use. A PW with high crit chance will generate a lot of revealed debuff, denying use of both HIS and SR, and to the ones that use it, Blinding Power utility. I wouldnt use it.

That’s not strictly true.
Assuming revealed does not stack. It is a semi constant 3s of reveal every 5s.
Meaning after 3s, you could stealth. With 33% damage reduction you would need to stealth less to begin with, and because of how traits work to begin with, this would not trigger off cloak and dagger of the S/D.

This would actually make an S/D build significantly stronger as it’s crit rate (sustain and burst dmg) would increase by 10% and at the same time it would take 33% more damage.
This would be fairly devastating for WvW and pve as Tactical strike can last 3s. This would literally mean, you can CnD, tactical strike, have 5s of protection while visible and do it again. In other words, you’d be far harder to kill while still being able to reap the benefits of Stealth.
It would be clearly outrageous in a 10/30/30 build. Perma protection so even if they whack you in stealth you take relatively weak damage, and when you’re not stealthed it’s up anyways, so you’re a freaking tank and heal when in stealthed and possibly gain regen everytime you come out. Which is worse since for 3s they can’t attack anyways.
Lol wot!?

Now assuming it does stack.
With an ICD the most reveal you’d have on you at any time is 6s. Which you’d be protected for, and if you take 30 in acrobatics your protection would last 6.5s.
Can easily be protected the entire time you are revealed without qualm.
Not bad in this situation since it justifies using Acrobatics again.

If not in either of the two defense traits and going into trickery, it still means you’re glassy behind is now a lot sturdier, same if you put 30 in DA for some reason.
Think of what you’re trading off? If you’re going to burst them regardless it means practically nothing.

Edit: 5s of reveal? Lol wot? Still would mean kitten if you’re bursting and if you have prot all the time up, you need stealth less to begin with, and can easily take other defensive/offensive skills instead of refuge (say SoA or Roll) to deal with targeted attacks.

Protection is incredibly strong, and easily competes with Stealth (if you only had the option of 1 or the other), since you can proactively attack while it’s up, and it’s effectiveness basically scales far better with actual toughness and vitality.

The con to it, is that it’s just protection.
It can be removed.
Nor does it care about conditions themselves.
In a world where boon removal was very frequent, this trait would be fairly garbage.
However that isn’t the case.

Eduardo.4675:

Daecollo.9578:

Eduardo.4675:

It doesnt make much sense. It only benefits pistol whip build, which already has a evade built into the pistol whip skill already. Plus, it eliminates the proper use of HIS, which is the only reliable cond remover on a build without shadow embrace. And would make SR tricky to use. A PW with high crit chance will generate a lot of revealed debuff, denying use of both HIS and SR, and to the ones that use it, Blinding Power utility. I wouldnt use it.

Actually, it states that its 5s and 5s of revealed, and it won’t proc again if you already have protection, meaning it won’t matter if you use Flanking Strike or PW, it won’t generate anymore or less protection. Flanking Strike has an evade as well.

CnD is a dagger attack, so it won’t proc this trait, so if you wait 5 seconds, use CnD when ya need condition removal and stealth it would still work.

Really? And how am i gonna use proper tactical strike control build if i generate revealed debuff constantly with sword attacks, which are the dps of a S/D spec? This doesnt serve a S/D spec. Only a PW spec, which has no cond removal outside of HIS and Shadowstep, with the latter being very poor at it. That was my point. Deny stealth and you are conditioned in your usage of HIS or Shadow Embrace.

That is entirely the point, to deny heavy use of stealth, yYour a duelist and fencer and you stand and fight, your not a ninja who stealths every 4 seconds.

ensoriki.5789:

Eduardo.4675:

It doesnt make much sense. It only benefits pistol whip build, which already has a evade built into the pistol whip skill already. Plus, it eliminates the proper use of HIS, which is the only reliable cond remover on a build without shadow embrace. And would make SR tricky to use. A PW with high crit chance will generate a lot of revealed debuff, denying use of both HIS and SR, and to the ones that use it, Blinding Power utility. I wouldnt use it.

That’s not strictly true.
Assuming revealed does not stack. It is a semi constant 3s of reveal every 5s.
Meaning after 3s, you could stealth. With 33% damage reduction you would need to stealth less to begin with, and because of how traits work to begin with, this would not trigger off cloak and dagger of the S/D.

This would actually make an S/D build significantly stronger as it’s crit rate (sustain and burst dmg) would increase by 10% and at the same time it would take 33% more damage.
This would be fairly devastating for WvW and pve as Tactical strike can last 3s. This would literally mean, you can CnD, tactical strike, have 5s of protection while visible and do it again. In other words, you’d be far harder to kill while still being able to reap the benefits of Stealth.
It would be clearly outrageous in a 10/30/30 build. Perma protection so even if they whack you in stealth you take relatively weak damage, and when you’re not stealthed it’s up anyways, so you’re a freaking tank and heal when in stealthed and possibly gain regen everytime you come out. Which is worse since for 3s they can’t attack anyways.
Lol wot!?

Now assuming it does stack.
With an ICD the most reveal you’d have on you at any time is 6s. Which you’d be protected for, and if you take 30 in acrobatics your protection would last 6.5s.
Can easily be protected the entire time you are revealed without qualm.
Not bad in this situation since it justifies using Acrobatics again.

If not in either of the two defense traits and going into trickery, it still means you’re glassy behind is now a lot sturdier, same if you put 30 in DA for some reason.
Think of what you’re trading off? If you’re going to burst them regardless it means practically nothing.

Edit: 5s of reveal? Lol wot? Still would mean kitten if you’re bursting and if you have prot all the time up, you need stealth less to begin with, and can easily take other defensive/offensive skills instead of refuge (say SoA or Roll) to deal with targeted attacks.

Well, that means you would need 30 in acro and 30 in the defense tree, remember this trait is in the critical strikes tree, you can’t have a 30/30/30/30/30 spec.

It would also make S/D significantly more skill based as well, your saying all that, but your denying that if you “screw up.” which can easilly be done less your constantly looking at your revealed timer (with only 1.5 seconds of protection without revealed window to actually stealth.) your actually not getting that much protection from it when your not paying attention, since you can’t just immediately attack after you stealth, you still have to move around and hit his back.

This makes S/D a little stronger but much much harder to play, and for all that you said, if it takes the extra effort its not something a normal player could do.

Love the concept. I’ve been clamoring for a sustainable, dodgey Sword thief for a while (you know, kind of what a sword thief appears to be on paper until you get a better understanding of the games mechanics.)

Only issue I see is, without more consistent access to regen (and at least 1 way to get stability, even it’s a single use utility you have to use intelligently), you’re still just in a DPS race. Thieves main survival mechanic is unchanged (avoiding damage entirely via mobility/evades/stealth) – protection will allow you to eat the less powerful attacks (something a thief can’t really do at the moment) and save flanking strike/other evasive tools for the big swings, but you’re still just cutting the outliers off the bell curve – fighs will be longer and more consistent, but largely the same IMO.

Protection helps you in said race, but sustainable ranger specs work because they’re constantly gaining protection, doing consistent damage, have great access to the harassment style of conditions (cripple and poison) and most importantly, they’re regenerating health like crazy (via their HoT style heals and good access to regen).

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

Actually! That is a very good idea! and it would go well with another trait I had in mind!

Eduardo.4675:

Daecollo.9578:

Eduardo.4675:

It doesnt make much sense. It only benefits pistol whip build, which already has a evade built into the pistol whip skill already. Plus, it eliminates the proper use of HIS, which is the only reliable cond remover on a build without shadow embrace. And would make SR tricky to use. A PW with high crit chance will generate a lot of revealed debuff, denying use of both HIS and SR, and to the ones that use it, Blinding Power utility. I wouldnt use it.

Actually, it states that its 5s and 5s of revealed, and it won’t proc again if you already have protection, meaning it won’t matter if you use Flanking Strike or PW, it won’t generate anymore or less protection. Flanking Strike has an evade as well.

CnD is a dagger attack, so it won’t proc this trait, so if you wait 5 seconds, use CnD when ya need condition removal and stealth it would still work.

Really? And how am i gonna use proper tactical strike control build if i generate revealed debuff constantly with sword attacks, which are the dps of a S/D spec? This doesnt serve a S/D spec. Only a PW spec, which has no cond removal outside of HIS and Shadowstep, with the latter being very poor at it. That was my point. Deny stealth and you are conditioned in your usage of HIS or Shadow Embrace.

It would offer a different playstyle for a weaponset (you know, spec diversity, what the community as a whole is in a clamor for). The same way some people like to run conditions D/D just for deathblossom, you could slot this trait and turn S/D into a dodgy, consistent damage setup that makes heavy use of Inf strike and Flanking strike rather than just the current control/heavy stealth style S/D has been pigeonholed into.

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Edit: 3s of confusion might be a bit much unless it’s a proc chance on crit. Remember you’re talking about a critical strikes trait on a weapon with some very good multi-hit ability,

Wot?
I was giving two different situations.
In the case that reveal does not stack, it’s a 3s debuff unless forcibly increased.
Meaning at 3s, a loss of stealth is completely negligible.
Which works just fine for a 10/30/30 spec.

In the case you’re doing S/P.
It scales very well with 10/30/0/30.
No indication whatsoever of a 30/30/30/30/30 spec in my words.

Im not going to base my idea on the strength on a trait on whether someone is sleeping or not. That makes zero sense.
It doesn’t make it any harder unless Reveal stacks otherwise there’s basically zero relevant change. If it stacks to 6s, you wouldn’t care in WvW since they’d be dazed for 3 of those seconds. Of the remaining 3 you’d have protection up for 2. Which means lol 1s of CURRENT vulnerability before you can stealth again at your discretion.
You’re harder to kill straight up, without losing any relevant damage save for Critical Haste.

It would offer a different playstyle for a weaponset (you know, spec diversity, what the community as a whole is in a clamor for). The same way some people like to run conditions D/D just for deathblossom, you could slot this trait and turn S/D into a dodgy, consistent damage setup that makes heavy use of Inf strike and Flanking strike rather than just the current control/heavy stealth style S/D has been pigeonholed into.

In WvW/PvE the heavy control is nice.
However you can just as easily use warps + auto attacks and flanking or DD and remain effective. If reveal doesn’t stack, you change basically nothing.
If it does, you again can again change basically nothing because the amount of prot you have mitigates the damage you’ll take in any of the spec you do and especially if 10/30/30 where that Protection is reducing damage in relation to 300 toughness.

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

In fencing, the riposte (French for “retort”) is an offensive action with the intent of hitting one’s opponent, made by the fencer who has just parried an attack.¹

The OP started with 1s of prot and revealed per crit hit. It then moved on to 5s, with the non reaplly clause. My 1st answer was to 1st OP. Now, its 3s of revealed. A lot has changed.
And my tactical strike, which is the reason for a S/D spec, was being hindered by the no stealth clause. And having to wait to use HIS too. I want to use tactical strike after the 3rd sword auto as much as possible, and the initial build was denying that intirely. Even this version with 6s max revealed is poor. The 10% crit chance increase wouldnt make up for it, far from that. It only serves a PW spec, a spec that is initiative intense, making usage of return to wipe conditions very difficult coz youre conditioned on your usage of HIS. And in a spec that is protection based, conditions are the counter.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage. Also, OMG boon duration might be worth something… in the boon duration line.

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Edit: 3s of confusion might be a bit much unless it’s a proc chance on crit. Remember you’re talking about a critical strikes trait on a weapon with some very good multi-hit ability,

Sounds fun in theory, but wont work in the long run – the current design of sword and this suggestion are too far split. Sword MH doesn’t offer any other damaging conditions – if you’re going to build a spec around a trait that puts confusion on crit in the spotlight, you’re going to run into 1 of 3 problems

- High power/crit builds are constantly stacking confusions that do terrible damage, the trait doesn’t do enough to warrant a complete change in playstyle (trading stealth for your on crit vigor/confusion)
- High condi/low power/high crit builds are constantly stacking high damage confusions, but every other attack does pitiful damage (Sword is all direct damage, which is now abysmall because you have 0 power) – you’re going to be trying to kill players via confusion alone, which doesn’t sound fun.
- You’re wearing a Carrion ammy to hybrid Power/condi as best you can, and have subpar crit. You’re wearing a rampagers ammy maximize crit and still have some power, but your total lack of toughness makes the spec extremely fragile to run.

I liked the original Protection on crit idea, tbh, with just a few other minor tweaks to the class to give Sword thieves a sustainable, dodgy setup that completely eschews stealth in favor or being hard to pin down AND hard to actually kill.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage.

Well, it actually makes a lot of sense, but Retaliation would go much better with the first idea of protection, since you have to get hit, and actually make thieves who evade worse, the counter play to the riposte thing is simple. Don’t attack the thief unless you know his evades are down, or CC him.

It wouldn’t really be good, because you gained retaliation (on evade.) when you evaded his attack, and so you didn’t do anything to him?

" Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits them. Damage will not be dealt if the attack is prevented or avoided. Duration can be stacked up to 5 times."

Eduardo.4675:

The OP started with 1s of prot and revealed per crit hit. It then moved on to 5s, with the non reaplly clause. My 1st answer was to 1st OP. Now, its 3s of revealed. A lot has changed.
And my tactical strike, which is the reason for a S/D spec, was being hindered by the no stealth clause. And having to wait to use HIS too. I want to use tactical strike after the 3rd sword auto as much as possible, and the initial build was denying that intirely. Even this version with 6s max revealed is poor. The 10% crit chance increase wouldnt make up for it, far from that. It only serves a PW spec, a spec that is initiative intense, making usage of return to wipe conditions very difficult coz youre conditioned on your usage of HIS. And in a spec that is protection based, conditions are the counter.

I think the idea is to create a trait that largely removes the ability to use tactical strike, while compensating the thief for that loss.

Basically, if you’re using tactical strike then this trait wouldn’t be build appropriate.

evilapprentice.6379:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Edit: 3s of confusion might be a bit much unless it’s a proc chance on crit. Remember you’re talking about a critical strikes trait on a weapon with some very good multi-hit ability,

Sounds fun in theory, but wont work in the long run – the current design of sword and this suggestion are too far split. Sword MH doesn’t offer any other damaging conditions – if you’re going to build a spec around a trait that puts confusion on crit in the spotlight, you’re going to run into 1 of 3 problems

- High power/crit builds are constantly stacking confusions that do terrible damage, the trait doesn’t do enough to warrant a complete change in playstyle (trading stealth for your on crit vigor/confusion)
- High condi/low power/high crit builds are constantly stacking high damage confusions, but every other attack does pitiful damage (Sword is all direct damage, which is now abysmall because you have 0 power) – you’re going to be trying to kill players via confusion alone, which doesn’t sound fun.
- You’re wearing a Carrion ammy to hybrid Power/condi as best you can, and have subpar crit. You’re wearing a rampagers ammy maximize crit and still have some power, but your total lack of toughness makes the spec extremely fragile to run.

I liked the original Protection on crit idea, tbh, with just a few other minor tweaks to the class to give Sword thieves a sustainable, dodgy setup that completely eschews stealth in favor or being hard to pin down AND hard to actually kill.

What about Precision/Condition Damage/Toughness gear?

@others
I changed it to 5s with the cool-down so it would favor less spammy attacks.

I’m of the opinion that if a class doesn’t have access to a particular boon, there’s a reason for it. The drawback (No stealthing!) is a clever idea, but it’s still a huge amount of uptime on a boon the class normally doesn’t get at all.

Daecollo.9578:

evilapprentice.6379:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Edit: 3s of confusion might be a bit much unless it’s a proc chance on crit. Remember you’re talking about a critical strikes trait on a weapon with some very good multi-hit ability,

Sounds fun in theory, but wont work in the long run – the current design of sword and this suggestion are too far split. Sword MH doesn’t offer any other damaging conditions – if you’re going to build a spec around a trait that puts confusion on crit in the spotlight, you’re going to run into 1 of 3 problems

- High power/crit builds are constantly stacking confusions that do terrible damage, the trait doesn’t do enough to warrant a complete change in playstyle (trading stealth for your on crit vigor/confusion)
- High condi/low power/high crit builds are constantly stacking high damage confusions, but every other attack does pitiful damage (Sword is all direct damage, which is now abysmall because you have 0 power) – you’re going to be trying to kill players via confusion alone, which doesn’t sound fun.
- You’re wearing a Carrion ammy to hybrid Power/condi as best you can, and have subpar crit. You’re wearing a rampagers ammy maximize crit and still have some power, but your total lack of toughness makes the spec extremely fragile to run.

I liked the original Protection on crit idea, tbh, with just a few other minor tweaks to the class to give Sword thieves a sustainable, dodgy setup that completely eschews stealth in favor or being hard to pin down AND hard to actually kill.

What about Precision/Condition Damage/Toughness gear?

@others
I changed it to 5s with the cool-down so it would favor less spammy attacks.

Runs into situation 2 – your tough to kill, but all of your damage is based on confusion. With 0 power, your sword swings will hit like a wet noodle – I’d have to do some testing, but something tells me it would be more prudent for opponents to just stand still and let you go nuts, cleanse conditions then heal, rather than actually try to fight back – you’re almost 100% reliant on confusion to kill your enemy. It’d be like running 0/0/30/20/20 P/D – you’re a 1 trick pony. Counter that trick, and your basically a gnat – hard to kill but easy to ignore.

Sounds like that -might- be a fun-ish bunker build to run, but you’ve still got no protection, no regen, and your survivability is based on mobility (which means you will lose caps to spec’s that can force you off of a point to survive)

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage.

Well, it actually makes a lot of sense, but Retaliation would go much better with the first idea of protection, since you have to get hit, and actually make thieves who evade worse, the counter play to the riposte thing is simple. Don’t attack the thief unless you know his evades are down, or CC him.

It wouldn’t really be good, because you gained retaliation (on evade.) when you evaded his attack, and so you didn’t do anything to him?

" Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits them. Damage will not be dealt if the attack is prevented or avoided. Duration can be stacked up to 5 times."

That’s true, but at the same time you’ve got a nearly impossible to track number of evades on a acro/sword thief. Take similar traits, like the warrior blocking = projectile reflection one. It’s very obvious when the warrior has the capacity to block. He’s either got aegis from another source, or he’s holding up a shield or mace.

Evasion isn’t something you can really quantify that way because there are so many unknown factors. You’ve got X number of possible heal/utility evades, endurance based dodges, and this is a sword trait, so you’ve got sword evades which are relative to initiative, and there’s no way for an outside observer to have a really good handle on your initiative.

All that together plus the fact that evades usually happen after you’re already started an attack make a straight damage return just a little too good to be true.

I’ll admit, though, that retaliation might not be appropriate, and I’m guessing this kind of theme is where the dodge>might trait came from as a similar discussion probably happenned during development.

Still think it’s best to roll the appropriate compensation for the “loss of stealth” trait in to that trait itself.

Also, I think the game needs a whole lot more sidegrade style traits with powerful buffs paid for in powerful drawbacks.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage.

Well, it actually makes a lot of sense, but Retaliation would go much better with the first idea of protection, since you have to get hit, and actually make thieves who evade worse, the counter play to the riposte thing is simple. Don’t attack the thief unless you know his evades are down, or CC him.

It wouldn’t really be good, because you gained retaliation (on evade.) when you evaded his attack, and so you didn’t do anything to him?

" Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits them. Damage will not be dealt if the attack is prevented or avoided. Duration can be stacked up to 5 times."

That’s true, but at the same time you’ve got a nearly impossible to track number of evades on a acro/sword thief. Take similar traits, like the warrior blocking = projectile reflection one. It’s very obvious when the warrior has the capacity to block. He’s either got aegis from another source, or he’s holding up a shield or mace.

Evasion isn’t something you can really quantify that way because there are so many unknown factors. You’ve got X number of possible heal/utility evades, endurance based dodges, and this is a sword trait, so you’ve got sword evades which are relative to initiative, and there’s no way for an outside observer to have a really good handle on your initiative.

All that together plus the fact that evades usually happen after you’re already started an attack make a straight damage return just a little too good to be true.

I’ll admit, though, that retaliation might not be appropriate, and I’m guessing this kind of theme is where the dodge>might trait came from as a similar discussion probably happenned during development.

Still think it’s best to roll the appropriate compensation for the “loss of stealth” trait in to that trait itself.

Also, I think the game needs a whole lot more sidegrade style traits with powerful buffs paid for in powerful drawbacks.

It would be fun to see a Bull’s Rush 100b Warrior kill himself due to your evades though. Even a P/D thief trying to quickshot you repeatedly, killing himself when you evade his shots.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage.

Well, it actually makes a lot of sense, but Retaliation would go much better with the first idea of protection, since you have to get hit, and actually make thieves who evade worse, the counter play to the riposte thing is simple. Don’t attack the thief unless you know his evades are down, or CC him.

It wouldn’t really be good, because you gained retaliation (on evade.) when you evaded his attack, and so you didn’t do anything to him?

" Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits them. Damage will not be dealt if the attack is prevented or avoided. Duration can be stacked up to 5 times."

That’s true, but at the same time you’ve got a nearly impossible to track number of evades on a acro/sword thief. Take similar traits, like the warrior blocking = projectile reflection one. It’s very obvious when the warrior has the capacity to block. He’s either got aegis from another source, or he’s holding up a shield or mace.

Evasion isn’t something you can really quantify that way because there are so many unknown factors. You’ve got X number of possible heal/utility evades, endurance based dodges, and this is a sword trait, so you’ve got sword evades which are relative to initiative, and there’s no way for an outside observer to have a really good handle on your initiative.

All that together plus the fact that evades usually happen after you’re already started an attack make a straight damage return just a little too good to be true.

I’ll admit, though, that retaliation might not be appropriate, and I’m guessing this kind of theme is where the dodge>might trait came from as a similar discussion probably happenned during development.

Still think it’s best to roll the appropriate compensation for the “loss of stealth” trait in to that trait itself.

Also, I think the game needs a whole lot more sidegrade style traits with powerful buffs paid for in powerful drawbacks.

It would be fun to see a Bull’s Rush 100b Warrior kill himself due to your evades though. Even a P/D thief trying to quickshot you repeatedly, killing himself when you evade his shots.

Oh it for sure sounds awesome, just a little too awesome, especially for a minor.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage.

Well, it actually makes a lot of sense, but Retaliation would go much better with the first idea of protection, since you have to get hit, and actually make thieves who evade worse, the counter play to the riposte thing is simple. Don’t attack the thief unless you know his evades are down, or CC him.

It wouldn’t really be good, because you gained retaliation (on evade.) when you evaded his attack, and so you didn’t do anything to him?

" Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits them. Damage will not be dealt if the attack is prevented or avoided. Duration can be stacked up to 5 times."

That’s true, but at the same time you’ve got a nearly impossible to track number of evades on a acro/sword thief. Take similar traits, like the warrior blocking = projectile reflection one. It’s very obvious when the warrior has the capacity to block. He’s either got aegis from another source, or he’s holding up a shield or mace.

Evasion isn’t something you can really quantify that way because there are so many unknown factors. You’ve got X number of possible heal/utility evades, endurance based dodges, and this is a sword trait, so you’ve got sword evades which are relative to initiative, and there’s no way for an outside observer to have a really good handle on your initiative.

All that together plus the fact that evades usually happen after you’re already started an attack make a straight damage return just a little too good to be true.

I’ll admit, though, that retaliation might not be appropriate, and I’m guessing this kind of theme is where the dodge>might trait came from as a similar discussion probably happenned during development.

Still think it’s best to roll the appropriate compensation for the “loss of stealth” trait in to that trait itself.

Also, I think the game needs a whole lot more sidegrade style traits with powerful buffs paid for in powerful drawbacks.

It would be fun to see a Bull’s Rush 100b Warrior kill himself due to your evades though. Even a P/D thief trying to quickshot you repeatedly, killing himself when you evade his shots.

Oh it for sure sounds awesome, just a little too awesome, especially for a minor.

It does have a hard counter, CC (knock down, knock back.)/Immobilize.

And its not like “Mug” damage, it probably does very little damage.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage.

Well, it actually makes a lot of sense, but Retaliation would go much better with the first idea of protection, since you have to get hit, and actually make thieves who evade worse, the counter play to the riposte thing is simple. Don’t attack the thief unless you know his evades are down, or CC him.

It wouldn’t really be good, because you gained retaliation (on evade.) when you evaded his attack, and so you didn’t do anything to him?

" Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits them. Damage will not be dealt if the attack is prevented or avoided. Duration can be stacked up to 5 times."

That’s true, but at the same time you’ve got a nearly impossible to track number of evades on a acro/sword thief. Take similar traits, like the warrior blocking = projectile reflection one. It’s very obvious when the warrior has the capacity to block. He’s either got aegis from another source, or he’s holding up a shield or mace.

Evasion isn’t something you can really quantify that way because there are so many unknown factors. You’ve got X number of possible heal/utility evades, endurance based dodges, and this is a sword trait, so you’ve got sword evades which are relative to initiative, and there’s no way for an outside observer to have a really good handle on your initiative.

All that together plus the fact that evades usually happen after you’re already started an attack make a straight damage return just a little too good to be true.

I’ll admit, though, that retaliation might not be appropriate, and I’m guessing this kind of theme is where the dodge>might trait came from as a similar discussion probably happenned during development.

Still think it’s best to roll the appropriate compensation for the “loss of stealth” trait in to that trait itself.

Also, I think the game needs a whole lot more sidegrade style traits with powerful buffs paid for in powerful drawbacks.

It would be fun to see a Bull’s Rush 100b Warrior kill himself due to your evades though. Even a P/D thief trying to quickshot you repeatedly, killing himself when you evade his shots.

Oh it for sure sounds awesome, just a little too awesome, especially for a minor.

It does have a hard counter, CC (knock down, knock back.)/Immobilize.

And its not like “Mug” damage, it probably does very little damage.

The problem is, basically, that all of those are in turn countered by the all-class-avaliable god of hard counters: evade itself.

Sure, once you’re locked down you’re locked down (well, Roll for initiative says hi) but getting you there and making it reliable becomes actively harder and more punishing for the guy trying to do it.

It’s hard enough to try and lock down a good thief. Doubly so for a sword thief, actively punishing your opponent for trying in a way he can’t mitigate or reliably predict seems a little over the top to me. The reward for landing a CC is already there, it shouldn’t be the only way to mitigate otherwise unmitigated damage.

Basically, I’m saying that instant non-dodgable damage is a bad thing balance wise, which is why there’s so very little of it in the game. If evades has a leadup it would be fair, but then again it would also completely break the core function of evades as reactionary invulnerability.

Love it! But they need to add Rapiers tho…that would be awesome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

rjinx.1378:

Daecollo.9578:

Critical Strikes
En Garde
- Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword and spear by 10%.
- Gain 3s of Vigor and revealed on critical hit with a sword or spear.

/fixed

You know, vigor ain’t a bad idea. I feel vigor alone isn’t enough to justify the almost complete loss of in-combat stealth though.

What about vigor+ something… extra confusion seems better than anything else we’ve spitballed here, and it might be a fair tradeoff for losing tactical strike.

Vigor +

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Deal damage each time you evade your foe.

Lol, that’s evil. I would take it on nearly every thief build imaginable. How about a little counterplay.

Acrobatics
Riposte – Minor Trait.
Gain 2 seconds of retaliation each time you evade an attack. Internal cooldown 2 seconds.

This way they’re not just plain taking the damage.

Well, it actually makes a lot of sense, but Retaliation would go much better with the first idea of protection, since you have to get hit, and actually make thieves who evade worse, the counter play to the riposte thing is simple. Don’t attack the thief unless you know his evades are down, or CC him.

It wouldn’t really be good, because you gained retaliation (on evade.) when you evaded his attack, and so you didn’t do anything to him?

" Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits them. Damage will not be dealt if the attack is prevented or avoided. Duration can be stacked up to 5 times."

That’s true, but at the same time you’ve got a nearly impossible to track number of evades on a acro/sword thief. Take similar traits, like the warrior blocking = projectile reflection one. It’s very obvious when the warrior has the capacity to block. He’s either got aegis from another source, or he’s holding up a shield or mace.

Evasion isn’t something you can really quantify that way because there are so many unknown factors. You’ve got X number of possible heal/utility evades, endurance based dodges, and this is a sword trait, so you’ve got sword evades which are relative to initiative, and there’s no way for an outside observer to have a really good handle on your initiative.

All that together plus the fact that evades usually happen after you’re already started an attack make a straight damage return just a little too good to be true.

I’ll admit, though, that retaliation might not be appropriate, and I’m guessing this kind of theme is where the dodge>might trait came from as a similar discussion probably happenned during development.

Still think it’s best to roll the appropriate compensation for the “loss of stealth” trait in to that trait itself.

Also, I think the game needs a whole lot more sidegrade style traits with powerful buffs paid for in powerful drawbacks.

It would be fun to see a Bull’s Rush 100b Warrior kill himself due to your evades though. Even a P/D thief trying to quickshot you repeatedly, killing himself when you evade his shots.

Oh it for sure sounds awesome, just a little too awesome, especially for a minor.

It does have a hard counter, CC (knock down, knock back.)/Immobilize.

And its not like “Mug” damage, it probably does very little damage.

The problem is, basically, that all of those are in turn countered by the all-class-avaliable god of hard counters: evade itself.

Sure, once you’re locked down you’re locked down (well, Roll for initiative says hi) but getting you there and making it reliable becomes actively harder and more punishing for the guy trying to do it.

It’s hard enough to try and lock down a good thief. Doubly so for a sword thief, actively punishing your opponent for trying in a way he can’t mitigate or reliably predict seems a little over the top to me. The reward for landing a CC is already there, it shouldn’t be the only way to mitigate otherwise unmitigated damage.

Basically, I’m saying that instant non-dodgable damage is a bad thing balance wise, which is why there’s so very little of it in the game. If evades has a leadup it would be fair, but then again it would also completely break the core function of evades as reactionary invulnerability.

Confuse your enemy if you evade an attack?

Either way, it seems like a good way to make evasion fun.

Daecollo.9578:

Confuse your enemy if you evade an attack?

Now this sounds like a game changer. An Acro trait that causes confuse on evade, and a crit strikes trait that gives prot and revealed on crit.

There you go, now S/D has 2 distinct, different playstyles. Your dodgy pirate S/D relies on protection to soak up lesser swings, evades to counter the harder hitting stuff, and the better you place (IE, evading attacks), the more you hurt your opponent via confusions.

Players wont be able to just unload on you towards the end of a flanking strike, knowing that even if a few of their attacks hit the thief is in trouble (thanks to protection taking the edge off their attacks combined with them taking damage via confusion thanks to sloppy play). It also changes the “DPS race” problem I pointed out earlier in the thread – you’re being actively rewarded for good play (evading attacks) outside the evade itself – your level of skillful play is the most important part of how well this hypothetical setup works, and that’s a hallmark of good design.

evilapprentice.6379:

Daecollo.9578:

Confuse your enemy if you evade an attack?

Now this sounds like a game changer. An Acro trait that causes confuse on evade, and a crit strikes trait that gives prot and revealed on crit.

There you go, now S/D has 2 distinct, different playstyles. Your dodgy pirate S/D relies on protection to soak up lesser swings, evades to counter the harder hitting stuff, and the better you place (IE, evading attacks), the more you hurt your opponent via confusions.

Players wont be able to just unload on you towards the end of a flanking strike, knowing that even if a few of their attacks hit the thief is in trouble (thanks to protection taking the edge off their attacks combined with them taking damage via confusion thanks to sloppy play). It also changes the “DPS race” problem I pointed out earlier in the thread – you’re being actively rewarded for good play (evading attacks) outside the evade itself – your level of skillful play is the most important part of how well this hypothetical setup works, and that’s a hallmark of good design.

I agree, though i’m still not 100% convinced in terms of protection on a thief trait (and I still feel like some sort of greater ability to blind would serve a similar mitigation role while not over-stacking with existing capabilities) Maybe not on crit, but perhaps “every fourth attack” or something.

Still, Confusion on evade as a minor is an extremely thematic and mechanically sound trait idea that’s actually worthy of being apart from the sword trait because of its utility on all sorts of builds. Confusion at its core is already well understood and well balanced so I think it’d be a fun alternative minor trait. You can cleanse it, wait it off, or power through, and putting it on evades rather than crits means you’re not going to have the opportunity to mega-stack it. In addition it synergizes with teammates much better than direct damage, and that’s always a good thing.

Though I think renaming it from riposte to “Insufferable” would be more appropriate with that functionality. Fits better with confuse and it makes me lol.

Also, I’d like to note that this has been possible the most constructive and engaging threads on the thief forum in a while. No offense Daecollo, but you’re much better company when you’re being more thinky and less caustic.

PopeUrban.2578:

evilapprentice.6379:

Daecollo.9578:

Confuse your enemy if you evade an attack?

Now this sounds like a game changer. An Acro trait that causes confuse on evade, and a crit strikes trait that gives prot and revealed on crit.

There you go, now S/D has 2 distinct, different playstyles. Your dodgy pirate S/D relies on protection to soak up lesser swings, evades to counter the harder hitting stuff, and the better you place (IE, evading attacks), the more you hurt your opponent via confusions.

Players wont be able to just unload on you towards the end of a flanking strike, knowing that even if a few of their attacks hit the thief is in trouble (thanks to protection taking the edge off their attacks combined with them taking damage via confusion thanks to sloppy play). It also changes the “DPS race” problem I pointed out earlier in the thread – you’re being actively rewarded for good play (evading attacks) outside the evade itself – your level of skillful play is the most important part of how well this hypothetical setup works, and that’s a hallmark of good design.

I agree, though i’m still not 100% convinced in terms of protection on a thief trait (and I still feel like some sort of greater ability to blind would serve a similar mitigation role while not over-stacking with existing capabilities) Maybe not on crit, but perhaps “every fourth attack” or something.

Still, Confusion on evade as a minor is an extremely thematic and mechanically sound trait idea that’s actually worthy of being apart from the sword trait because of its utility on all sorts of builds. Confusion at its core is already well understood and well balanced so I think it’d be a fun alternative minor trait. You can cleanse it, wait it off, or power through, and putting it on evades rather than crits means you’re not going to have the opportunity to mega-stack it. In addition it synergizes with teammates much better than direct damage, and that’s always a good thing.

Though I think renaming it from riposte to “Insufferable” would be more appropriate with that functionality. Fits better with confuse and it makes me lol.

Also, I’d like to note that this has been possible the most constructive and engaging threads on the thief forum in a while. No offense Daecollo, but you’re much better company when you’re being more thinky and less caustic.

My opinion on protection is you’ll never have a decent “sustained” DPS build without it (in the lower 2 base HP tiers anyway, from a PvP perspective). You can’t dodge everything, and sitting in the lowest HP bracket with poor access to regen means we generally have to burst our targets down before they kill us. Anything besides an Ele or Guard has at minimum 4k more base HP to eat confusion ticks while they DPS us down.

This means you have to give a thief something to compensate. You can go the route of weakness/blind/harder hits (harder hits in comparison to say a S/D ranger, not a D/D or D/P thief), but then you’re just making a different flavor of burst thief. It would still mean more spec diversity, which is good, but we’ll still be fulfilling the same role – use your tricks to burn your target down before they burn you down.

The protection/regen route would offer an entirely different playstyle and role fulfillment to a thief – Sure, we’ll still hit slightly harder and be slightly squishier than say a S/D Ranger (base HP differences ensure that), but it won’t be so all or nothing – there will be time on both sides to try to compensate and read your opponents moves for an actually engaging, fun fight.

evilapprentice.6379:

PopeUrban.2578:

evilapprentice.6379:

Daecollo.9578:

Confuse your enemy if you evade an attack?

Now this sounds like a game changer. An Acro trait that causes confuse on evade, and a crit strikes trait that gives prot and revealed on crit.

There you go, now S/D has 2 distinct, different playstyles. Your dodgy pirate S/D relies on protection to soak up lesser swings, evades to counter the harder hitting stuff, and the better you place (IE, evading attacks), the more you hurt your opponent via confusions.

Players wont be able to just unload on you towards the end of a flanking strike, knowing that even if a few of their attacks hit the thief is in trouble (thanks to protection taking the edge off their attacks combined with them taking damage via confusion thanks to sloppy play). It also changes the “DPS race” problem I pointed out earlier in the thread – you’re being actively rewarded for good play (evading attacks) outside the evade itself – your level of skillful play is the most important part of how well this hypothetical setup works, and that’s a hallmark of good design.

I agree, though i’m still not 100% convinced in terms of protection on a thief trait (and I still feel like some sort of greater ability to blind would serve a similar mitigation role while not over-stacking with existing capabilities) Maybe not on crit, but perhaps “every fourth attack” or something.

Still, Confusion on evade as a minor is an extremely thematic and mechanically sound trait idea that’s actually worthy of being apart from the sword trait because of its utility on all sorts of builds. Confusion at its core is already well understood and well balanced so I think it’d be a fun alternative minor trait. You can cleanse it, wait it off, or power through, and putting it on evades rather than crits means you’re not going to have the opportunity to mega-stack it. In addition it synergizes with teammates much better than direct damage, and that’s always a good thing.

Though I think renaming it from riposte to “Insufferable” would be more appropriate with that functionality. Fits better with confuse and it makes me lol.

Also, I’d like to note that this has been possible the most constructive and engaging threads on the thief forum in a while. No offense Daecollo, but you’re much better company when you’re being more thinky and less caustic.

My opinion on protection is you’ll never have a decent “sustained” DPS build without it (in the lower 2 base HP tiers anyway, from a PvP perspective). You can’t dodge everything, and sitting in the lowest HP bracket with poor access to regen means we generally have to burst our targets down before they kill us. Anything besides an Ele or Guard has at minimum 4k more base HP to eat confusion ticks while they DPS us down.

This means you have to give a thief something to compensate. You can go the route of weakness/blind/harder hits (harder hits in comparison to say a S/D ranger, not a D/D or D/P thief), but then you’re just making a different flavor of burst thief. It would still mean more spec diversity, which is good, but we’ll still be fulfilling the same role – use your tricks to burn your target down before they burn you down.

The protection/regen route would offer an entirely different playstyle and role fulfillment to a thief – Sure, we’ll still hit slightly harder and be slightly squishier than say a S/D Ranger (base HP differences ensure that), but it won’t be so all or nothing – there will be time on both sides to try to compensate and read your opponents moves for an actually engaging, fun fight.

Thief is the only 10k health class without protection, but I believe its proper for our non-stealth weapon sets to have something…

In short, I agree. Trading the ability to stealth for protection seems like a balanced trade in my opinion – combined with the fact that sword is incapable of the burst thieves are known for, it’d be a fun addition to the classes options.

I still insist there needs to be something else to tie the spec together however. Access to regen tops my list, but a “confusion on evade” (it’d have to be more than 1 stack tho, since A sword MH spec will rely on power and crit for damage) seems thematically relevant, fair, fun, and balanced imo.