Guild Wars 2

Hey guys, I’m back. I threw some numbers into a graphing calculator to determine what % crit chance you need for executioner to become better then Hidden Killer for D/D PvE Thieves. PLEASE READ THIS: This information pertains to PVE THIEVES MOSTLY. PvP has a verity of factors like wanting to go tanky ect… ect…

Here is what I came up with.

Red = 5 Second Rotation + Executioner
Green= 5 Second Rotation + Hidden Killer
Blue = 6.75 Rotation + Executioner
Purple = 6.75 Rotation + Executioner

So Executioner > Hidden Killer once you reach around 63-66% Crit-Chance (and that’s with berzerker and valk gear, using gear without crit damage (Knights) will move the results so Executioner is better.)

To graph these, all I did was make X = Crit Chance, then simplified the damage equation I used in my other post. Yay spreadsheets!
Build: http://tinyurl.com/c2xkvmx

Executioner > Hidden Killer all time now. Hidden Killer is bugged and does not work at all. So until the bug gets fixed don’t use Hidden Killer.

Don’t use Hidden killer?…
I’m not even using my thief…

Wow, this is cool, thanks for doing the math. I sacrifice a bit of precision for survive-ability in the vein of toughness and vitality so I typically stay right at 50% crit chance. I typically use hidden killer so I’m glad that I’ve been making the right decision.

Thanks again!

There are other factors in your build that can influence your result.

Example: Procs coming from Opportunist and First Strike can be a balance tipper, plus the procs of Critical Haste.

So yeah, on paper it looks that way, but if you add into your calculation the probability of your traits proc-ing, I assure you, you’ll get a very different result.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There are other factors in your build that can influence your result.

Example: Procs coming from Opportunist and First Strike can be a balance tipper, plus the procs of Critical Haste.

So yeah, on paper it looks that way, but if you add into your calculation the probability of your traits proc-ing, I assure you, you’ll get a very different result.

I’m glad you brought those up, in a standard D/D build you only need infusion of shadow to be initiative stable (and that was with a 4 second rotation), so opportunist is not applicable.

First Strike ties into that, you should never drop below 6 init unless you miss your CnD.

Finally, critical haste is a VERY VERY small portion of damage, it’s defiantly there and worth it, but mathematically it’s insignificant to comparing 40% and 60% crit-chance. Same with sundering strikes, the internal cool-downs do a serious number on the actual effectiveness of the abilities.

While I do hate the odd backstab that doesn’t crit, there’s something so much more satisfying about the abundance of 12k-14k backstabs I see with Executioner.

That and the patch broke Hidden Killer.
Just sayin’.

Aervius.2016:

While I do hate the odd backstab that doesn’t crit, there’s something so much more satisfying about the abundance of 12k-14k backstabs I see with Executioner.

That and the patch broke Hidden Killer.
Just sayin’.

Yup, Executioner is better if you have over 60% crit chance

So Executioner > Hidden Killer once you reach around 63-66% Crit-Chance (and that’s with berzerker and valk gear, using gear without crit damage (Knights) will move the results so Executioner is better.)

Do you mean that if you use knights gear (Power/toughness/vitality), Executioner is better than hidden killer?

Rissou.7213:

So Executioner > Hidden Killer once you reach around 63-66% Crit-Chance (and that’s with berzerker and valk gear, using gear without crit damage (Knights) will move the results so Executioner is better.)

Do you mean that if you use knights gear (Power/toughness/vitality), Executioner is better than hidden killer?

Yes. HK focusses on crit purely, while Executioner also boosts non-crit damage. So HK takes a bigger hit then Exec when you have lower crit damage.

And PVT gear is called Soldier’s. Knight’s is Precision, Toughness and Power.

128% critical damage 10/30/30/0/0 Thief. HK is my everything. Now that it isn’t working I am so sad =(

Heizero.9183:

128% critical damage 10/30/30/0/0 Thief. HK is my everything. Now that it isn’t working I am so sad =(

you should also have a good crit% … try to go with a couple of warriors, you’ll have perma fury.

At the moment I run with this build : http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.3|8.1c.h1.a.1c.h17|5.1c.h4|1c.7m.1n.7m.1c.7m.1c.7m.1c.7m.1c.7m|21j.0.1n.64.1n.64.1n.61.1n.61.1c.61|a3.u36c.f4.0.f5|3l.1|57.5b.5a.5c.5v|e

And I would want to switch on a different build sacrifying some of my survavibility to achieve 50% crit chance and have more critical damage (roaming build mainly)

I came up with this setup : http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1c.h1.a.1c.h17|5.1c.h4|1c.7m.1n.7m.1c.7m.1c.7m.1c.7m.1c.a1|21j.0.21k.d1e.31k.0.1g.61.1g.64.1g.64|a3.u36b.f4.0.f4|39.1|0.0.0.0.0|e

If we forget the current bug on HK do you think that the second build would benefit more from HK or Exec ? I don’t know how to analyze because I have 62% crit chance (when behind) and more than 50% crit damage (which I don’t know if it’s a lot or not). I could switch out a trait to have fury on steal though.

Thank you

P.S.: I think the purple one is not “Purple = 6.75 Rotation + Executioner” it should be : “Purple = 6.75 Rotation + HK”

So to reach 64 % of crit. chanse you suggest to use Knights amulet + bers.
What about runes in armor and weapon ?

I’d offer the idea that Executioner is even better at lower crit . I run a 0/30/0/25/15
evasion build (P/P + SB for weapons). My crit % typically hovers between 38-42, and I
regularily see crits popping off. Although, my case is biased due to lack of stealth. /shrug

Scootabuser.4915:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There are other factors in your build that can influence your result.

Example: Procs coming from Opportunist and First Strike can be a balance tipper, plus the procs of Critical Haste.

So yeah, on paper it looks that way, but if you add into your calculation the probability of your traits proc-ing, I assure you, you’ll get a very different result.

I’m glad you brought those up, in a standard D/D build you only need infusion of shadow to be initiative stable (and that was with a 4 second rotation), so opportunist is not applicable.

First Strike ties into that, you should never drop below 6 init unless you miss your CnD.

Finally, critical haste is a VERY VERY small portion of damage, it’s defiantly there and worth it, but mathematically it’s insignificant to comparing 40% and 60% crit-chance. Same with sundering strikes, the internal cool-downs do a serious number on the actual effectiveness of the abilities.

Fair enough, but my point with Critical Haste is, it favors Executioner than Hidden Killer.

With high enough Crit Chance, the probability of triggering Critical Haste is high and every time it triggers it boosts the numbers in favor of Executioner.

Either way, I favor Executioner over Hidden Killer anyway since I use S/D.

All bets are off when you start sacrificing DPS for survivability. At that point you shouldn’t care about maximizing your DPS because your doing so much LESS damage then you could be anyways, why bother.

Scootabuser.4915:

All bets are off when you start sacrificing DPS for survivability. At that point you shouldn’t care about maximizing your DPS because your doing so much LESS damage then you could be anyways, why bother.

Well I can argue that survivability is DPS since you do zero DPS when dead.

Might not be high damage, but dependable damage.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Scootabuser.4915:

All bets are off when you start sacrificing DPS for survivability. At that point you shouldn’t care about maximizing your DPS because your doing so much LESS damage then you could be anyways, why bother.

Well I can argue that survivability is DPS since you do zero DPS when dead.

Might not be high damage, but dependable damage.

Survivability for a lot of player comes from skill, not HP.

Thanks for the graph.

Heizero.9183:

128% critical damage 10/30/30/0/0 Thief. HK is my everything. Now that it isn’t working I am so sad =(

May I ask what type of gear you are using and how much HP you have? I also use a 10/30/30/0/0 build and want at least 100% crit dmg, and then focus on survivability with some PVT or Valk pieces. Or a 0/30/30/10/0 build… But my precision will probably suffer so I think HK will be more useful for me.

Volrath.1473:

Don’t use Hidden killer?…
I’m not even using my thief…

QFT, Im Guardian onry now, at least until thf auto attack rounds get set to 4 seconds.

Scootabuser.4915:

Survivability for a lot of player comes from skill, not HP.

Anyone can get snuck up on when their one stun breaker is down, or suddenly find themself against 3 people when there was only 1 before. Having enough HP and defense to survive some crazy GCs initial burst is important. My thf is set as 10/30/30/0/0, and uses PTV pants, body, hat and all divinity runes, berserker everything else. I find that to be enough.

wish.3102:

Volrath.1473:

Don’t use Hidden killer?…
I’m not even using my thief…

QFT, Im Guardian onry now, at least until thf auto attack rounds get set to 4 seconds.

Scootabuser.4915:

Survivability for a lot of player comes from skill, not HP.

Anyone can get snuck up on when their one stun breaker is down, or suddenly find themself against 3 people when there was only 1 before. Having enough HP and defense to survive some crazy GCs initial burst is important. My thf is set as 10/30/30/0/0, and uses PTV pants, body, hat and all divinity runes, berserker everything else. I find that to be enough.

This is a topic about long term DPS attack rotations. The OP even specified that it is about PvE, as if it wasn’t apparent enough.

Anyways, I’d like to throw in that I prefer Executioner over Hidden Killer, even though my crit rate is only in the upper 50s. Unlike Hidden Killer, it greatly benefits shortbow and the occasional sword/pistol swap. It helps when you don’t have any initiative and need to autoattack for a bit too (maybe you whiffed CnD, maybe you blew all your initiative on shortbow skills, maybe you desperately needed an evade and used Death Blossom). You also tend to have fury up a whole lot of the time with the prevalence of warriors using For Great Justice, as well as the extra crit chance from the new buffed banners, both of which also pull Executioner forward more than Hidden Killer.

It also helps that both gambling and bigger numbers are fun.

Scootabuser.4915:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Scootabuser.4915:

All bets are off when you start sacrificing DPS for survivability. At that point you shouldn’t care about maximizing your DPS because your doing so much LESS damage then you could be anyways, why bother.

Well I can argue that survivability is DPS since you do zero DPS when dead.

Might not be high damage, but dependable damage.

Survivability for a lot of player comes from skill, not HP.

I beg to differ. Just by looking at this forum, it is contrary to what you’re saying. Survivability is both passive (tough, vit) and active (dodge, evade, position) — which is skill based.

Not everyone has the same skill level, thus they compensate by building in favor of survivability. Most of the time, that extra 100 HP is the diffence between dealing DPS and zero DPS.

Sure you can use experience and skill for survivability but that’s only against predictable encounters, but once something unpredictable happens, that extra beef can buy you enough time to react.

The difference is, you choose the active survivability to gain high DPS that only few, not a lot, can probably run with high efficiency.