Guild Wars 2

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IS/IR is very costly for a marginal damage and really only useful when used in S/D because the immob can benefit both CnD and FS/LS. You also lose cleanse with IR if you use any other skill after IS — it would be nice if it functions like FS/LS. But, yes, I agree that BP in S/P don’t really see much play for me either.

You aren’t using IS/IR properly if being used for direct damage. IS is used to position for a second or third PW, the thief then has 15s to pop IR. That is a teleport to a target with Immobilize and a return 15s later with condi removal for a total of 5 init. Only 3 if the player doesn’t return.

IS→PW combo costs 8init(9 in PvP), 10init (11 in PvP) when IR is used…that’s expensive. I’m simply stating the benefit-to-cost ratio. Even though IS→FS/LS is more expensive, the benefit is way better because not only it steals boon, it can also deal a massive unblockable damage.

Besides, you don’t need IS to prep PW because PW already has it’s own CC and PW will not benefit from immob because PW has a .75s casting time and another .5s of delay from pistol animation going to the sword attacks animation. So by the time you stast swinging your sword for multiple hits, your target can dodge out of it.

Stealth is absolutely not necessary on a thief. I believe it is heavy compared to using pure mobility these days. D/P uses 9 init for a few seconds of stealth. Add on SA and a thief handcuffs themselves to a sub-par damage line. Once a player frees themselves from the stealth shackles several new variations of builds open up. Players with good situational awareness particularly excel.

Our crew stopped using stealth about a year ago and instead focused on builds that hit harder with higher mobility. We are far more dangerous running without stealth and every bit as slippery.

I said, it is necessary to gain tactical advantages. I never said it’s necessary for every build.

D/P spends 9 init because it has no choice, that’s the cost of BS in that set. BS costs 6 init in D/D set. There’s no other way around it unless you want to burn your cooldowns for stealth.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yeah, leaping with Bounding gives S/P stealth, however Bounding is a no-no unless you’re in a group.

I find this to be more or less true.

Stealth handicaps several thief builds including S/P. Black Powder is good for stomps, can make camp caps painless and is solid around other thieves but mostly it sits unused in combat on my builds. It is far better to become proficient on IS and IR coupled with defensive skills like Bandits and Shadow Step.

Mastering D/P tends to handicap players shifting to other weapons due to the reliance on stealth. Stealth isn’t necessary and in some cases sub-optimal.

Stealth is necessary at gaining tactical advantage regardless of build. However, to trade Dash to Bound just to gain stealth is never a good idea unless running with a group or zerg. Besides, S/P is a very expensive set costing 6 init + 50 endurance just to Bound on BP. That’s 50 endurace that could have been used to trigger “on evade” abilities.

IS/IR is very costly for a marginal damage and really only useful when used in S/D because the immob can benefit both CnD and FS/LS. You also lose cleanse with IR if you use any other skill after IS — it would be nice if it functions like FS/LS. But, yes, I agree that BP in S/P don’t really see much play for me either.

Disagree entirely on dash versus bound. Firstly I have 100 percent uptime swiftness and multiple immob breaks in the build. I also have multiple ways to clear chill and cripple. Dash does nothing more for the build in this regard. I do not need all those immob breaks. it overkill.

Bound on the other hand can get me 6k AOE damage with ease and is a blast finisher for using water firelds I steal off rangers ethereal fields and the like.

Well yes, in certain builds Dash may be overkill. However, the beauty of Dash is that it opens up an option to add more overall damage at the same time a very good engage/disengage ability. Dash has the farthest travel distance compared to other dodge augmentations (i.e. Bound) — it’s not just about the anti-immob.

To Bound to stealth I am not sure where you get the idea this does not proc an evade. Of course it does. When flipping a camp more often than not a ranger shows. The first thing a ranger does is used Rapid Fire. Your HS to stealth with Black powder is not an evade. It will not clear the vuln stacks or avoid the channel of the RF. Bound to stealth will do both. Further to that if the camp still has guards I am all but assured an evade and all of its procs due to their own attacks launched as I evade.

I think you misread my post about this. I never posted anything to that notion that it does not proc evade, in fact, I said that opposite. What I said was, I could’ve used the 50 endurance to proc an evade instead of using it to go in stealth.

I mean come on, who tries to go in stealth while being channeled with Rapid Fire? Rapid Fire has a channel time of 2.5s while Bound only have .75s of evade frame…meaning, you’re still getting hit by Rapid Fire even in stealth. Dash is actually the best counter to Rapid Fire because not only you evade the arrows, you can also get out of range while proc’ing on-evade effect.

You can then re-engage in stealth while out of range. HS to BP + Steal (no Mug) can set you up for a BS from 1500 range.

I am now stealthed and can decide to enage the ranger or move in another direction entirely.

Not really. BP has a casting time of .5s and Bound has .75s of evade, meaning you’re eating 1.75s of Rapid Fire even in stealth. Because of this, the Ranger can see where you at and besides, what exactly does S/P do from stealth? Daze? Blind? The damage from Tactical Strike is pathetic. You can surely use Pistol Whip but that’s an expensive way of doing it and stealth is unnecessary.

The Vuln the ranger applied is cleared and a good part of the RF avoided. I am ahead of the guy who stealthed via Powder and HS in all aspects but endurance, but avoiding atttacks and proccing on evade traits is what endurance is for..

I disagree. As I mentioned above, you’re eating 1.75s out of 2.5s of channeled RF even in stealth. Escapist Absolution will only remove 3 out of 10 stacks of vulnerability due to its ICD. If you delay the removal of the stacks so you can remove more than 3 stacks, the damage is already done because each consecutive arrows will benefit from the current stack of Vulnerability. If you remove it too early, you’re going to eat 8 out of 10 arrows from RF.

The only practical way to avoid further damage and stacks of Vulnerability is to evade the first volley, thus removing/preventing the stacks of Vulnerability, then get out of range to prevent damage and further stacks. Dash can grant you that kind of protection that Bound cannot.

You overstate the case significantly with dash versus dodge as far as distance moved is concerned.

Bounding dodger moves you 300 units through that evade. Dash moves you 450 unites through the duration of that evade. that is only extra 150 units meaning that in our scenario of being under RF if a ranger opened up at 900+ and I Dodged away with bounding and you with dash, I would take no more damage than you. It also means that if that ranger opens up at 750 units or less you still be in range using dash as would a person using bounding.

That extra 150 units in game terms, swiftness up and running will be covered in aroind 1/2 second.

In essence if we leave aside the immob breaks and swiftness given I am speaking about a build that already has those things what you have with UC is that extra 1/2 second when you dodge added to 10 percent damage mitigation for conditions and direct for 4 seconds.

What bounding dodger has is 10 percent more damage for 4 seconds, a blast finisher and AOE direct damage that can hit and hit hard. If as example we move towards that same ranger to attack and use a a dodge to close the gap to miss his knockback, you will arrive a fraction of a second earlier, i will arrive doing thousands in damage when I land.

Gievn that with that same ranger I can blast the water field I steal from him for a fat heal , something your dash can not do , I am going bounding dodger in such circumstances.

To the issue of stealth through a rapid fire . I find it works very well as the Ranger loses target lock. If you are just evading and he still sees you his next attack can hit right away . In stealth you can other move away or towards him and those extra seconds in stealth are you not being hit.

Now all of my builds used to use UC. I initially found Bounding misses to much. I have since come around to its potential. That said I alwso use UC in other builds. It a great trait but is hardly the one people should always select.

Blaqatak.1395:

babazhook.6805:

Disagree entirely on dash versus bound. Firstly I have 100 percent uptime swiftness and multiple immob breaks in the build. I also have multiple ways to clear chill and cripple. Dash does nothing more for the build in this regard. I do not need all those immob breaks.

What are you running for 100% swiftness uptime and multiple immob breaks?
If the swiftness is coming from thrill of the crime + pack runes, are you burning steal on CD to get around in WvW?

I trait acro and in one build have 75 percent boon duration. This means when I dodge expeditous dodger gives over 10 seconds.

In the other build (no boon) it a combination of lots of dodges available, expeditious and TOTC as needed.

This for swiftess.

Both builds use withdraw which is an immob break at under 15 seconds. Both Use RFI which is another immob break. The one without staff uses dont stop which as an immob break every 10 seconds and there a build with staff which has immob break in the weapon set.

That 10 seconds Immob break off dont stop is not as mad as people say. First it not often you get immobed several times in 10 seconds and added to that this is an automatic break meaning I do not have to burn off a dodge for it.

All what a Thief needs to solo Camps is either D/D & SB, or S/P & SB

Combine this with the Signet ofMalice, which heals you for every hitted enemy.
Simple Tactics..

Lure as many NPCs to a spot where you can tank them all
Spam with Shortbow prmanently a mix of poison AoE and Cluster Bomb Explosions or without explosions for Field Combo with the Poison to cause AoE Weakness

Either this tactis, as the spammign of poison and clusters keeps you under signet alive easily, until all NPCs are dead, so that you can go solo agaist the overseer…

Or tactics B.. you go in with D/D and attack just simply with AA and every so often a Deadly Blossom spam whenever you have enough initiative for it, to cause massive bleedings among all npcs, and to cause alot of hits that heal you up due to ther signet.

Use a signet build with that you can quickly boost up your attack power by gaining stacks of Mights, to speed up the killing….

Use either Soldier Gear with mixed Celestial, or Full Marauders or anythign what you like, that just gives you enough power to deal good DPS to kill the npcs quickly enough… if you have enogh DPS you are able to kill all NPCs, before even swords are displayed, if you do it good and correctly, which is what you cann then basically a "Stealth Flip*, when you take an anyme camp, with the enemy barely getting to know, whats going on, before its mostly already too late for them to react, unless the enemy was already by coincedence near enough at the camp to se actually whats going on there, before the swords appear on the map.

A player, who can’t solo as Thief a camp is either

1) too inexperienced with the class and should learn first how to play better Thief, or
2) uses too weak equipment andhas not enough DPS, or
3) has wasted too much time with NPCs, so that they keep respawning, or killed NPCs under a protected ovrseer too esarly, so that they respawned at a wrong moment, costign you time that could essentially be enough for reinforcements of enemy playrs to arrive in time, before you coudl finish your job, or
4) overestimated itself and took on too many foes at onces in a weakened state, a thief playr should always know when its better to flee and not to fight too many foes at once, especially once enemy playrs join the battle, and like to play with you"catch me if you can" just to waste your time, until killed npcs respawn for them, or more reinforcements join them, while you can#t progress on your claiming at all, what is an unfair game design.. even when outnumbered a playr tryign to take a camp should have a chanc to flip it, if that playr can survive fighting multipl enemie at once, while doing somethign specific in cobmat to keep progressing the claim, that should be possible… then it would stop also that defendign playrs just try to play on time only permanently, but rather would go for the fight with you, because you’d stil lbe able to claim the camp, but just slower, as if no defender woudl be there… thats how it shoudl work.. one can dream, one can dream

Howevr, follow these simple tsctics, have either full exo ,or better ful lascended soldir/marauder equipment, and any thief with some brain in the head will be able to solo camps

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IS->PW combo costs 8init(9 in PvP), 10init (11 in PvP) when IR is used…that’s expensive. I’m simply stating the benefit-to-cost ratio. Even though IS->FS/LS is more expensive, the benefit is way better because not only it steals boon, it can also deal a massive unblockable damage.

Besides, you don’t need IS to prep PW because PW already has it’s own CC and PW will not benefit from immob because PW has a .75s casting time and another .5s of delay from pistol animation going to the sword attacks animation. So by the time you stast swinging your sword for multiple hits, your target can dodge out of it.

The Immobilize on IS sets up PW. Without it a target typically dodges the PW. With it a target might dodge the Immob or the Stun but probably not both. The key to making PW work is the constant Immob and Stun spam. If PW cannot be setup, getting out of AoE/Melee is vital which is why IS/IR works so well with it.

8 init is cheap compared to D/P Backstab setup and PW hits harder. Besides that is for a followup or gap closing hit. IS/IR on S/P is a great utility. We have run the set nightly for over a year now and it is one of the strongest thief builds we have run.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I said, it is necessary to gain tactical advantages. I never said it’s necessary for every build.

D/P spends 9 init because it has no choice, that’s the cost of BS in that set. BS costs 6 init in D/D set. There’s no other way around it unless you want to burn your cooldowns for stealth.

As noted, Stealth is not “necessary” for a tactical advantage. The thief in combat mobility in our experience is far more lethal. Taking stealth (a generally heavy mechanic) over mobility/damage is no longer necessary. For good players, thief stealth to prime attacks is a handicap IMO.

I don’t understand why you accept the D/P Backstab cost but think the IS/PW is expensive. 8 init to close and deliver one of the hardest hitting attacks in the game is pretty cheap. Even better it comes with a safety valve if things don’t line up.

Enemy: D/P + staff thief Daredevil – all npcs were dead when I arrived. His mistakes were a) getting hit while being in SR (you don’t stand in the middle of it!!) b) switching to staff – had he stayed D/P I would’ve stand no chance (he tried in the end but that was too late).

ETA: That to defended camps and your discussion whether S/P or D/P is better. There is a reason why everybody and their mother are running D/P and you can have the “hardest hitting” skills in game – doesn’t help you if you miss.

babazhook.6805:

You overstate the case significantly with dash versus dodge as far as distance moved is concerned.

Bounding dodger moves you 300 units through that evade. Dash moves you 450 unites through the duration of that evade. that is only extra 150 units meaning that in our scenario of being under RF if a ranger opened up at 900+ and I Dodged away with bounding and you with dash, I would take no more damage than you. It also means that if that ranger opens up at 750 units or less you still be in range using dash as would a person using bounding.

That extra 150 units in game terms, swiftness up and running will be covered in aroind 1/2 second.

If the ranger open up at 750 or less, it would take Bounders 3 dodges to get out of range because it can only cover 300 per dodge, thus to cover a 900 distance is to dodge 3 times. Compared to Dash, it only takes 2 dodges to cover the 900 range, meaning the 3rd endurance bar can be used to re-engage. Even if you factor swiftness, Dash is still more endurance efficient.

In essence if we leave aside the immob breaks and swiftness given I am speaking about a build that already has those things what you have with UC is that extra 1/2 second when you dodge added to 10 percent damage mitigation for conditions and direct for 4 seconds.

Yes, it’s a perfect trait for Thief. It has a lot of things that the Thief needs in one beautiful package.

What bounding dodger has is 10 percent more damage for 4 seconds, a blast finisher and AOE direct damage that can hit and hit hard. If as example we move towards that same ranger to attack and use a a dodge to close the gap to miss his knockback, you will arrive a fraction of a second earlier, i will arrive doing thousands in damage when I land.

Gievn that with that same ranger I can blast the water field I steal from him for a fat heal , something your dash can not do , I am going bounding dodger in such circumstances.

I’m not denying everything that Bound can do since I also said that it’s a better pick when in a group. You can surely risk it with Bound, I used to do that, but in terms of resource efficiency, Dash is way better since it can disengage and re-engage while preserving the Thief, thanks to the 10% damage reduction against both direct damage and condition damage.

Dealing thousands of damage with Bound to a Ranger means that either the Ranger is naked or simply standing there, or both. I’ve played every profession and fighting naked or simply standing there is not part of playing a Ranger. If you dodge my RF, I already know if you have Bound or Dash and I can respond appropriately. S/D also gives Ranger a lot of evades, 3 skills in that set has evade, so I really doubt the Ranger will just take thousands of damage.

To the issue of stealth through a rapid fire . I find it works very well as the Ranger loses target lock. If you are just evading and he still sees you his next attack can hit right away . In stealth you can other move away or towards him and those extra seconds in stealth are you not being hit.

You don’t really have extra “seconds”, more like 1/2 a second. The RF channel is 2.5s long. The channel will follow you for that duration and the Ranger can track you while you’re in stealth. Target only drops after the channel, which means you only have .5s to move freely in stealth.

Now all of my builds used to use UC. I initially found Bounding misses to much. I have since come around to its potential. That said I alwso use UC in other builds. It a great trait but is hardly the one people should always select.

I agree and I never implied that Dash is the one “people should always select” rather what I said was Bound is a no-no unless you’re in a group. I’m looking at which trait has a better benefit and is more efficient. IMO, Bound should grant 15% damage boost, same with Lotus, 15% damage boost, just to be on par with Dash’s efficiency.

Straegen.2938:

The Immobilize on IS sets up PW. Without it a target typically dodges the PW. With it a target might dodge the Immob or the Stun but probably not both. The key to making PW work is the constant Immob and Stun spam.

This is not true. The immob from IS only lasts 1s. The casting time for PW is .75s, the Stun lasts .5s, and the transition from the Pistol attack to the Sword attack is .25 -.5s. This means that your immob only guarantees the stun, but not the sword attack hits. The only real CC that’s keeping your target for the sword attack is the stun not the immob. If they dodge the immob, then they are out of range for your PW, so the claim that your target will either get immob or stunned doesn’t make sense.

8 init is cheap compared to D/P Backstab setup and PW hits harder. Besides that is for a followup or gap closing hit. IS/IR on S/P is a great utility. We have run the set nightly for over a year now and it is one of the strongest thief builds we have run.

There’s no doubt that S/P hits hard, that is if you can keep your target from moving and using IS is not as effective nor reliable as you might think.

As noted, Stealth is not “necessary” for a tactical advantage. The thief in combat mobility in our experience is far more lethal. Taking stealth (a generally heavy mechanic) over mobility/damage is no longer necessary. For good players, thief stealth to prime attacks is a handicap IMO.

For good players, stealth is not just for setting up attacks, it’s for tactical advantage. You don’t always have to follow stealth with a stealth attack. You can use it tactically to gain a positional advantage.

I don’t understand why you accept the D/P Backstab cost but think the IS/PW is expensive. 8 init to close and deliver one of the hardest hitting attacks in the game is pretty cheap. Even better it comes with a safety valve if things don’t line up.

Because IS→PW is not reliable. On paper, your target will receive massive damage, but in reality, you only get a stun and a couple of sword hits before they move or dodge away. Since PW roots you, the big chunk of your damage is negated.

If the D/P specs SA, the 9 init cost is also a heal + 2 init refund after 4s of stealth. So in this case, BP→HS is much cheaper.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This is not true. The immob from IS only lasts 1s. The casting time for PW is .75s, the Stun lasts .5s, and the transition from the Pistol attack to the Sword attack is .25 -.5s. This means that your immob only guarantees the stun, but not the sword attack hits. The only real CC that’s keeping your target for the sword attack is the stun not the immob. If they dodge the immob, then they are out of range for your PW, so the claim that your target will either get immob or stunned doesn’t make sense.

PW isn’t a root skill until after the stun. All I need is to get and stay close which is the point of IS. Stay out of their crap until I can teleport (Steal, Shadow Step, IS), hit them with PW and if anything goes wrong IR. Without IS/IR S/P is often left sitting in a very poor place when it misses.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There’s no doubt that S/P hits hard, that is if you can keep your target from moving and using IS is not as effective nor reliable as you might think.

We have thousands of hours and kills on this weapon set. I dare say my guild mate is probably the closest thing to an expert on the build as you will find. It is very reliable with only one real weakness.

Because IS->PW is not reliable. On paper, your target will receive massive damage, but in reality, you only get a stun and a couple of sword hits before they move or dodge away. Since PW roots you, the big chunk of your damage is negated.

Pulmonary Impact allows PW to do significant damage without having to fully channel. A full channel is just a bonus. Besides if it does half of the hits, that is about as strong as a Backstab and PW isn’t positional nor has an ICD.

If the D/P specs SA, the 9 init cost is also a heal + 2 init refund after 4s of stealth. So in this case, BP->HS is much cheaper.

Now we are going down a rabbit hole. Trading off DA for SA, loses Mug (a solid hitter/healer), Panic Strike (very powerful with PW), Exposed Weakness and Executioner. You could drop Trickery but ouch does that drop the DPS as well.

I am in no way saying S/P is better than D/P but what I am saying is that for clearing a camp it is vastly superior. For killing players, it is better than Staff. Finally that IS/IR is not wasted on S/P and is actually cornerstone to making it run well.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This is not true. The immob from IS only lasts 1s. The casting time for PW is .75s, the Stun lasts .5s, and the transition from the Pistol attack to the Sword attack is .25 -.5s. This means that your immob only guarantees the stun, but not the sword attack hits. The only real CC that’s keeping your target for the sword attack is the stun not the immob. If they dodge the immob, then they are out of range for your PW, so the claim that your target will either get immob or stunned doesn’t make sense.

PW isn’t a root skill until after the stun. All I need is to get and stay close which is the point of IS. Stay out of their crap until I can teleport (Steal, Shadow Step, IS), hit them with PW and if anything goes wrong IR. Without IS/IR S/P is often left sitting in a very poor place when it misses.

However you want to spin it, you’re still facing the fact that Pistol Whip has a .75s casting time, a .25-.5s transition delay between the two actions from pistol to sword, and ~1.25s of sword attack (rooting), which negates any perceived benefit that IS provide.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There’s no doubt that S/P hits hard, that is if you can keep your target from moving and using IS is not as effective nor reliable as you might think.

We have thousands of hours and kills on this weapon set. I dare say my guild mate is probably the closest thing to an expert on the build as you will find. It is very reliable with only one real weakness.

Doubtful. The facts are proving your statement false.

Because IS->PW is not reliable. On paper, your target will receive massive damage, but in reality, you only get a stun and a couple of sword hits before they move or dodge away. Since PW roots you, the big chunk of your damage is negated.

Pulmonary Impact allows PW to do significant damage without having to fully channel. A full channel is just a bonus. Besides if it does half of the hits, that is about as strong as a Backstab and PW isn’t positional nor has an ICD.

Pulmonary Impact benefits D/P also, so what’s your point?

Contrary to your position, the full channel is what makes PW great. The problem is, it cannot deal 100% of its damage to the target.

If the D/P specs SA, the 9 init cost is also a heal + 2 init refund after 4s of stealth. So in this case, BP->HS is much cheaper.

Now we are going down a rabbit hole. Trading off DA for SA, loses Mug (a solid hitter/healer), Panic Strike (very powerful with PW), Exposed Weakness and Executioner. You could drop Trickery but ouch does that drop the DPS as well.

Whoever said that DA is being traded off? And whoever said that Trick is being dropped? What was said is that, the cost of BP->HS is much cheaper when spec’d for SA.

You’re the only one going into a rabbit hole down a slippery slope. DA/SA/Trick is still a strong build. Trick and DD are interchangeable, no reason to have both. SA and Acro are interchangeable, no reason to have both either. DA and CS are interchangeable, having both presents a high risk — sacrificing a defensive line for more damage.

If you’re implying a D/P uses DA/Trick/DD build, then that’s maybe just you. I will never build my D/P that way.

I am in no way saying S/P is better than D/P but what I am saying is that for clearing a camp it is vastly superior. For killing players, it is better than Staff. Finally that IS/IR is not wasted on S/P and is actually cornerstone to making it run well.

PW has a big problem in terms of cost and the channel duration. PW entire animation should finish within the 1s time frame. Either reducing the number of swings to 3 and still deal the same overall damage or reduce the casting time and remove the delay between pistol and sword attack to fit into the 1s time frame. Having the whole animation lasts approx. 2s is not acceptable. Unless PW can chase a moving target just like Relentless Assault, that duration is way too long. Otherwise the only really use of PW is against an immovable object like siege engines and gates.

EDIT: typos

Nothing to see here – they’re arguing about nothing.

its all good n all using there’s gimmick builds to solo camps but vs a player with braincell’s it will not work. i would run a build that takes more then 2 mins to solo a camp (i know thats not possible) but can fight people then some cheap crap build that can only mow down npc’s

Fat Disgrace.4275:

its all good n all using there’s gimmick builds to solo camps but vs a player with braincell’s it will not work. i would run a build that takes more then 2 mins to solo a camp (i know thats not possible) but can fight people then some cheap crap build that can only mow down npc’s

Of course it’s possible to take longer than 2 mins to take a camp – and while I was doing a camp capping marathon the other day I killed everybody who came to defend – but then you have to theorycraft again if the guy was experienced, what build he was running etc etc etc. There was no warrior who tried to stop me – I wouldn’t have a chance against that. ETA: And against a lot other classes/builds (depending on the skill).
In short: You guys can speak of which build is the best to kill enemy players all you like that topic is far too complex – and thief usually isn’t tanky, so every build should be good enough to clear a camp in a decent time.

ETA (yeah, I know) : The important point is to chose the right weapon to do that and D/P is the wrong choice. Or: If you want to take longer than 2 minutes to take a camp: use D/P incoming fight guaranteed – problem: Most people don’t run around solo anymore – the longer you take, the more likely a group will come.

Pulmonary Impact benefits D/P also, so what’s your point?

PW triggers Pulmonary Impact as well Head Shot. Landing the first part of PW often triggers it which in turn lands a hard hit regardless of a full channel. Backstab does not typically fire Pulmonary Impact making it less useful on D/P than S/P by a mile.

Contrary to your position, the full channel is what makes PW great. The problem is, it cannot deal 100% of its damage to the target.

PW doesn’t need a full channel to deliver a sizable burst. As noted Pulmonary Impact often triggers from PW. In addition the character is in full evade which often triggers a minor heal or two.

The other major advantage over both Backstab and Unload is that the ability cleaves which makes its potential DPS crazy good.

Whoever said that DA is being traded off? And whoever said that Trick is being dropped? What was said is that, the cost of BP->HS is much cheaper when spec’d for SA.

A roamer cannot have DD, Trickery, DA and SA. To get SA a roamer typically gives up DA which is a big passive damager. Maybe there is a SA, DA, Trickery build that is good for roaming but I haven’t seen one in ages.

You’re the only one going into a rabbit hole down a slippery slope. DA/SA/Trick is still a strong build. Trick and DD are interchangeable, no reason to have both. SA and Acro are interchangeable, no reason to have both either. DA and CS are interchangeable, having both presents a high risk — sacrificing a defensive line for more damage.

SA or DA over Dare Devil… possible sure, optimal for a roamer no. I wouldn’t skip out on Dare Devil for a roaming build on any thief these days. Might make sense in a gank squad but not for roaming.

PW has a big problem in terms of cost and the channel duration.

You keep saying this despite the fact that it is cheaper than Backstab in most instances. It also hits harder particularly with Pulmonary Impact. It doesn’t need the full channel to clock harder than Backstab and it is far more likely to fully trigger Sigils. It also cleaves rather than being a single target skill.

Before the Backstab ICD nerf, this argument made more sense but Backstab just got a lot more difficult to land.

Otherwise the only really use of PW is against an immovable object like siege engines and gates.

Again we can agree to disagree. Although it is fantastic against guards which is the point of this thread.

Straegen.2938:

Pulmonary Impact benefits D/P also, so what’s your point?

PW triggers Pulmonary Impact as well Head Shot. Landing the first part of PW often triggers it which in turn lands a hard hit regardless of a full channel. Backstab does not typically fire Pulmonary Impact making it less useful on D/P than S/P by a mile.

Your likelihood to interrupt anyone with a .75s casting time is way less than the likelihood of Head Shot to interrupt with no casting time. Your statement is based on wishful thinking and is far from reality — just as your claim that IS sets up PW.

PW doesn’t need a full channel to deliver a sizable burst. As noted Pulmonary Impact often triggers from PW. In addition the character is in full evade which often triggers a minor heal or two.

I’m sorry but I call BS on this.

First you assume that your target is stunned, thus how the heck are you gonna trigger the “on evade” if no one’s attacking you?

Second, two hits from the sword attack IS NOT a sizeable burst. Yes you only get 2 hits before your target dodged away.

Third, Pulmonary Impact has a low to no chance of proc’ing against a target that is immobilized. If the target breaks immob, they will definitely dodge/evade your stun. You can’t interrupt stun break either since those are instant cast.

PW has a big problem in terms of cost and the channel duration.

You keep saying this despite the fact that it is cheaper than Backstab in most instances. It also hits harder particularly with Pulmonary Impact. It doesn’t need the full channel to clock harder than Backstab and it is far more likely to fully trigger Sigils. It also cleaves rather than being a single target skill.

Before the Backstab ICD nerf, this argument made more sense but Backstab just got a lot more difficult to land.

I don’t really get how players are having a hard time landing a Backstab. Must be a L2P thing.

Otherwise the only really use of PW is against an immovable object like siege engines and gates.

Again we can agree to disagree. Although it is fantastic against guards which is the point of this thread.

I rather use Vault than use PW.

>>>If the ranger open up at 750 or less, it would take Bounders 3 dodges to get out of range because it can only cover 300 per dodge, thus to cover a 900 distance is to dodge 3 times. Compared to Dash, it only takes 2 dodges to cover the 900 range, meaning the 3rd endurance bar can be used to re-engage. Even if you factor swiftness, Dash is still more endurance efficient.

I will disagree with your conclusions and suffice it to say your style of combat is not mine. You might find UC more efficient when soloing. I do not and spend almost all my time in wvw more often than not soloing.

To your example above. If a ranger at 700 range the last thing I am doing is using dashes or bounding to get away from him. The further away I get the harder his AA hits. I am going to engage him directly using that stealth to close . That tsealth will avoid any knockback and get me close enough to use a bounding dodger to land on him.

I am now on him with at least a dodge , able to use my weapon while you are some 1200 units away facing the long range shot and trying to figure out how to get back to him. By the time you use your dash to reclose he has his RF coming back off cooldown.

Making statements like “no one should ever use bound unless in a group” is simply you stating an opinion as to what works best for your style of play. You apparently play much more defensively. It is not an absolute as I prefer dodger when Solo and do very well with it.

I need not compare results with you when making this conclusion. Given I have played both for months on end in a multiple of builds , I can compare to myself which is as it should be. So let us agree to disagree on the matter.

At times where Daredevil didnt exist, I ran a simply DA, Critical, SA, or DA, Critical, Trickery, or DA, Critical, Acrobatics build in regard of what I felt like makes fun, or which weapons i used, when Acrobatics was still good and not nerfed to death and was easily able to solo camps with these builds with Soldier Equipment.

Sure, by far surely not the fastest build, but still able to solo here n there some camps without that enemies saw at all swords come up, before it was nearly already too late to save the camp.. and thats already like 2 years or longer ago…

Can’t understand, why there seem to exist people which struggle still uptil today with soloing camps as thie,f with al the power creep around now, with thieves, that deal now much more DPS through AA spam, than years ago, with DD and their dodge abilities, that give thieves no much more aoe dps when luring all npcs into a corner where you can easily hit them all to kill them quickly with either bound/vaults or lotus spam where it even plays no role anymore if you are power build or condi, as the staff is also great to quickly kill small npc groups, especialyl when combine with signet of Malice to keep you alive with their cleaving attacks that also reflect projectiles from the pistol camp guards.

I can also easily solo camp with Dash as DD, with no damaging aoe damage dodges the old thief way, simply by using AA attacks, deadly blossoms , blinds, stealth and backstabs to quickly kill the problematic npcs to have it easier with the rest.

Really problematic does it get only for a thief to take camps, if you have to fight agaisnt good defensive players, which try to just buy time for others to come help or hope, that your killed npcs will respawn so that they get it easier to defeat you..these kinds of coward players are it, which are the most annyoing as a solo thief camp roamer…peopel which are too scared to fight you and rather do only their best to stop you from getting the camp only and nothign else…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Your likelihood to interrupt anyone with a .75s casting time is way less than the likelihood of Head Shot to interrupt with no casting time. Your statement is based on wishful thinking and is far from reality — just as your claim that IS sets up PW.

The reality is the skill interrupts frequently in active play. The number of WvW players that have their AA auto turned on is stupid high. Even those that don’t just pound their AA constantly. In a duel, S/P performs poorly admitted but for roaming it is solid. We run this and aren’t speculating.

Last night alone we killed a dozen plus warriors while they were in Hundred Blades. It became comical. DH Trappers are particularly fun as they tend to die in one burst.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’m sorry but I call BS on this.

First you assume that your target is stunned, thus how the heck are you gonna trigger the “on evade” if no one’s attacking you?

Because many, many builds out there run AoE, traps, passive damagers, etc. I see it on my Chrono as well. 90% or more of players just keep attacking or the evasion portion is sitting in a DH trap, some field, etc. Again in a duel, doesn’t work but for fighting roamers it works great.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Second, two hits from the sword attack IS NOT a sizeable burst. Yes you only get 2 hits before your target dodged away.

If a player is spamming PW, then yes it isn’t effective. Use it when BV is up. Use it when they drop below 50%. Use it on the steal when it can be primed. Players have to pick when they drop that big hit. In the meantime, Head Shot Ints and the AA pick at the target until the situation arises to drop it. Once the enemy is on cooldown, PW utterly decimates almost any target.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t really get how players are having a hard time landing a Backstab. Must be a L2P thing.

Using it against stealth targets it is pure luck now. Against everything else any dodge, evade, block, etc screws it up.

I rather use Vault than use PW.

Vault is fine but lacking for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. It is particularly problematic against other players that are decent and blinding fields.

babazhook.6805:

>>>If the ranger open up at 750 or less, it would take Bounders 3 dodges to get out of range because it can only cover 300 per dodge, thus to cover a 900 distance is to dodge 3 times. Compared to Dash, it only takes 2 dodges to cover the 900 range, meaning the 3rd endurance bar can be used to re-engage. Even if you factor swiftness, Dash is still more endurance efficient.

I will disagree with your conclusions and suffice it to say your style of combat is not mine. You might find UC more efficient when soloing. I do not and spend almost all my time in wvw more often than not soloing.

To your example above. If a ranger at 700 range the last thing I am doing is using dashes or bounding to get away from him. The further away I get the harder his AA hits. I am going to engage him directly using that stealth to close . That tsealth will avoid any knockback and get me close enough to use a bounding dodger to land on him.

I am now on him with at least a dodge , able to use my weapon while you are some 1200 units away facing the long range shot and trying to figure out how to get back to him. By the time you use your dash to reclose he has his RF coming back off cooldown.

Yeah, we’re different in play style alright. I get out of range then go in stealth so that when I go in stealth, RF cannot follow me while in stealth.

Making statements like “no one should ever use bound unless in a group” is simply you stating an opinion as to what works best for your style of play. You apparently play much more defensively. It is not an absolute as I prefer dodger when Solo and do very well with it.

My opinion is within the context of this topic. I will never suggest a more risky and aggressive play to someone who don’t even know how to solo take a camp. Bound is a no-no in that context, unless they are with a group.

I need not compare results with you when making this conclusion. Given I have played both for months on end in a multiple of builds , I can compare to myself which is as it should be. So let us agree to disagree on the matter.

My only disagreement is not about your play style (I do take a more aggressive approach myself), rather on what’s being suggested in the context of the topic. Often times, what works for you doesn’t necessarily works for others, so a more defensive/sage approach is better and it’s up to the player if they want to take it up a notch. Then they can come back here and make another topic on how to take it to the next level.

Right now, we have Po at level zero. Sure it would be fun seeing his tenders smashed and his butt burns, but let’s first see if they can handle a level zero first.

“Who doesn’t even know how to solo take a camp”

Lets be honest: There’s no safe way to do things in this meta – at least not for a thief.
I always called my server if I wanted a camp to be flipped “Ohhh Jost!! Not again!!” – and was really proud when I learned how to do it on my own. I could tell the whole story but it wouldn’t make too much sense, just: Even if it’s just PvE it still teaches how to play. You might die to the first 20 defenders but eventually learn how to deal with them. No reason to throw an encyclopedia at somebody who just started

We should make some builds though, probably – Metabattle doesn’t really help.

ETA: BTW: When I soloed my first tower I was majorly kittened at my server who were chickening and bickering around. So I just trebbed that kitten tower open and stormed it – while all the chicken stood beside me. Anger helps a lot in wvw too
ETA²: That was one week after I learned how to solo camps.

Pretty big thread just to kill a bunch of npcs lol.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty big thread just to kill a bunch of npcs lol.

I contributed to partially derailing for a while.