Guild Wars 2

There has been a shift in the philosophy of trait design over time that has led to the gradual removal of range increasing traits in favor of making them baseline. This is good.

Recently, a patch on July 28th finally removed and integrated the last few range increasing traits. This is great! Except… for Thief Pistol.

Thief is now the only profession in the game that still has a range increasing trait, and it’s a hidden effect on a Master trait in their second worst trait line to boot! This is bad.

Is there any particular reason for this from a dev standpoint? That the range increase is unlisted in the trait’s description makes me wonder if it was ever intended to raise range at all, but I’m not entirely sure. Some clarification would be much appreciated!

Pistol range boost should be made baseline for thieves IMO. And bring back ricochet pls Anet

Bring back Ricochet too.

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

I honestly like the idea of range increasing traits (though in this case I readily agree it should be removed).

In general there’s some interesting customization possible, iff these traits have some downside or trade-off attached, possibly via the other two traits. That is to say, you could take some effect making something stronger, or make it have more reach, or make it produce a secondary effect. All on the same tier for choice.

Amante.8109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

Apparently, a weapon becomes “long range” precisely when it goes from 900 to 1050. And here I thought 1200+ was long! Also good to know that a massive range increase of 150 only becomes a problem when it’s applied to Thief in the same way as it is with literally every other profession in the game.

I think I may have figured out why you don’t see a lot of points.

P.S. You realize that, when traited, Thief already has that “long range” weapon you say they don’t need, right? Ankle Shots OP

BrotherBelial.3094:

Amante.8109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

Your point, regardless of whether it’s valid or not, still has nothing to do with the matter the OP is trying to address. That is that a thief still has to waste a trait on something that other classes are now getting as a baseline addition for free.

Your opinion on whether or not thieves are meant to be close or long ranged is rather moot as far as the context of the discussion is concerned, and also very debatable at that. So far as I understood it, all classes were designed to have a variety of gameplay styles available to them that they could switch between.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Amante.8109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

Your point, regardless of whether it’s valid or not, still has nothing to do with the matter the OP is trying to address. That is that a thief still has to waste a trait on something that other classes are now getting as a baseline addition for free.

Your opinion on whether or not thieves are meant to be close or long ranged is rather moot as far as the context of the discussion is concerned, and also very debatable at that. So far as I understood it, all classes were designed to have a variety of gameplay styles available to them that they could switch between.

The point is, the devs feel that thieves don’t need it to be base line as its not firing with the way the class plays, also balance. If a thief could attack al long range stealth move and attack again. It would be like a ranger having access to a bucket of stealth imagen the pew pew rangers with that much stealth. The game wold become, long range stealth shooting. I would guess ANet is not a fan of that idea.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Amante.8109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

Your point, regardless of whether it’s valid or not, still has nothing to do with the matter the OP is trying to address. That is that a thief still has to waste a trait on something that other classes are now getting as a baseline addition for free.

Your opinion on whether or not thieves are meant to be close or long ranged is rather moot as far as the context of the discussion is concerned, and also very debatable at that. So far as I understood it, all classes were designed to have a variety of gameplay styles available to them that they could switch between.

The point is, the devs feel that thieves don’t need it to be base line as its not firing with the way the class plays, also balance. If a thief could attack al long range stealth move and attack again. It would be like a ranger having access to a bucket of stealth imagen the pew pew rangers with that much stealth. The game wold become, long range stealth shooting. I would guess ANet is not a fan of that idea.

If the devs believed that thieves didn’t need extra range on pistols because that is not the way they intended for them to be played, then why does the trait still exist at all? Why not replace it with another trait altogether, that might actually be more useful? The fact that the trait exists already discredits your point.

P.S. Rangers do have access to a lot of stealth. All they have to do is use rune of the trapper and they can stealth quite regularly. Worse still, mesmers can stealth pretty easily as well. I don’t see why those two classes can have 1200+ range + stealth + knockbacks + pets/clones and yet you somehow think for thieves it would be OP to have 1050 range + stealth. It’s actually very difficult for pistol/pistol thieves or even pistol/dagger thieves to enter stealth while remaining at range without resorting to long cooldown utility skills.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Amante.8109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

Your point, regardless of whether it’s valid or not, still has nothing to do with the matter the OP is trying to address. That is that a thief still has to waste a trait on something that other classes are now getting as a baseline addition for free.

Your opinion on whether or not thieves are meant to be close or long ranged is rather moot as far as the context of the discussion is concerned, and also very debatable at that. So far as I understood it, all classes were designed to have a variety of gameplay styles available to them that they could switch between.

The point is, the devs feel that thieves don’t need it to be base line as its not firing with the way the class plays, also balance. If a thief could attack al long range stealth move and attack again. It would be like a ranger having access to a bucket of stealth imagen the pew pew rangers with that much stealth. The game wold become, long range stealth shooting. I would guess ANet is not a fan of that idea.

If the devs believed that thieves didn’t need extra range on pistols because that is not the way they intended for them to be played, then why does the trait still exist at all? Why not replace it with another trait altogether, that might actually be more useful? The fact that the trait exists already discredits your point.

P.S. Rangers do have access to a lot of stealth. All they have to do is use rune of the trapper and they can stealth quite regularly. Worse still, mesmers can stealth pretty easily as well. I don’t see why those two classes can have 1200+ range + stealth + knockbacks + pets/clones and yet you somehow think for thieves it would be OP to have 1050 range + stealth. It’s actually very difficult for pistol/pistol thieves or even pistol/dagger thieves to enter stealth while remaining at range without resorting to long cooldown utility skills.

You don’t see my point, and all I see is that you want to have something you don’t have with out even trying to see the down side or why it’s not included. But hay you want what you want.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Amante.8109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

Your point, regardless of whether it’s valid or not, still has nothing to do with the matter the OP is trying to address. That is that a thief still has to waste a trait on something that other classes are now getting as a baseline addition for free.

Your opinion on whether or not thieves are meant to be close or long ranged is rather moot as far as the context of the discussion is concerned, and also very debatable at that. So far as I understood it, all classes were designed to have a variety of gameplay styles available to them that they could switch between.

The point is, the devs feel that thieves don’t need it to be base line as its not firing with the way the class plays, also balance. If a thief could attack al long range stealth move and attack again. It would be like a ranger having access to a bucket of stealth imagen the pew pew rangers with that much stealth. The game wold become, long range stealth shooting. I would guess ANet is not a fan of that idea.

If the devs believed that thieves didn’t need extra range on pistols because that is not the way they intended for them to be played, then why does the trait still exist at all? Why not replace it with another trait altogether, that might actually be more useful? The fact that the trait exists already discredits your point.

P.S. Rangers do have access to a lot of stealth. All they have to do is use rune of the trapper and they can stealth quite regularly. Worse still, mesmers can stealth pretty easily as well. I don’t see why those two classes can have 1200+ range + stealth + knockbacks + pets/clones and yet you somehow think for thieves it would be OP to have 1050 range + stealth. It’s actually very difficult for pistol/pistol thieves or even pistol/dagger thieves to enter stealth while remaining at range without resorting to long cooldown utility skills.

You don’t see my point, and all I see is that you want to have something you don’t have with out even trying to see the down side or why it’s not included. But hay you want what you want.

Actually, I haven’t said what I do or do not personally want. I’ve only iterated the point the original poster was trying to make, which you seem to be avoiding.

That being said, I don’t see the downsides to the trait being included that you seem to feel will exist. Allow me to give a case example…

Rangers

With runes of the trapper, a ranger using traps and hunter’s shot would easily be able to achieve stealth every 4 to 5 seconds, if traited, and if they cycle through their skills properly. That’s about as often as a thief would be able to achieve stealth in an ideal situation, given the revealed debuff lasts 4 seconds as well.

So, here we have a class with 1500 range, whose rapid fire can do as much damage as a backstab, and that can stealth just as often as a thief. So, tell me, what is the downside to thieves having 1050 range and stealth, when another class can already achieve the same situation, only with vastly superior range, and other advantages on top of it (for example, ranger pets can continue attacking even while they are stealthed).

The problem I have with the point you are trying to make, is that all you say is that the result will be bad without actually giving proper reasons as to why, aside from trying to dictate that thieves should be close combat classes (which you also don’t give proper reasoning for). Then when someone refutes your point you act as if they are simply not thinking things through, when it actually seems as though I am the one thinking this through much more than you are.

If I can’t see your point, perhaps it’s because you are failing to make one properly. O_o

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

With runes of the trapper, a ranger using traps and hunter’s shot would easily be able to achieve stealth every 4 to 5 seconds, if traited, and if they cycle through their skills properly. That’s about as often as a thief would be able to achieve stealth in an ideal situation, given the revealed debuff lasts 4 seconds as well.

So, here we have a class with 1500 range, whose rapid fire can do as much damage as a backstab, and that can stealth just as often as a thief. So, tell me, what is the downside to thieves having 1050 range and stealth, when another class can already achieve the same situation, only with vastly superior range, and other advantages on top of it (for example, ranger pets can continue attacking even while they are stealthed).

The problem I have with the point you are trying to make, is that all you say is that the result will be bad without actually giving proper reasons as to why, aside from trying to dictate that thieves should be close combat classes (which you also don’t give proper reasoning for). Then when someone refutes your point you act as if they are simply not thinking things through, when it actually seems as though I am the one thinking this through much more than you are.

If I can’t see your point, perhaps it’s because you are failing to make one properly. O_o

Trapper runes and traps are condition damage, the Longbow is a power weapon… No Ranger going for trapper runes and traps will be doing any damage with longbow. You lack information about the subject you are complaining about.

Thief pistol gets bleed on hit at 900 range
Ranger shortbow gets weaker bleed only on hits from behind or the side at 900 range

Obviously pistol is the weapon that needs a buff

/sarcasm

Vikkela.7261:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

With runes of the trapper, a ranger using traps and hunter’s shot would easily be able to achieve stealth every 4 to 5 seconds, if traited, and if they cycle through their skills properly. That’s about as often as a thief would be able to achieve stealth in an ideal situation, given the revealed debuff lasts 4 seconds as well.

So, here we have a class with 1500 range, whose rapid fire can do as much damage as a backstab, and that can stealth just as often as a thief. So, tell me, what is the downside to thieves having 1050 range and stealth, when another class can already achieve the same situation, only with vastly superior range, and other advantages on top of it (for example, ranger pets can continue attacking even while they are stealthed).

The problem I have with the point you are trying to make, is that all you say is that the result will be bad without actually giving proper reasons as to why, aside from trying to dictate that thieves should be close combat classes (which you also don’t give proper reasoning for). Then when someone refutes your point you act as if they are simply not thinking things through, when it actually seems as though I am the one thinking this through much more than you are.

If I can’t see your point, perhaps it’s because you are failing to make one properly. O_o

Trapper runes and traps are condition damage, the Longbow is a power weapon… No Ranger going for trapper runes and traps will be doing any damage with longbow. You lack information about the subject you are complaining about.

Firstly, I’m not complaining. Just pointing out what rangers can achieve in terms of stealth. I don’t see why stating facts is taken as complaining these days.

Secondly, I’ve seen plenty of longbow rangers using traps and runes of the trapper in WvWvW and PvP. Besides, longbow rangers using runes of the trapper aren’t necessarily aiming to do damage with their traps in the first place (because that would reveal them out of stealth). It would be used more for utility. Just because a stat on a rune might not be useful to a particular build, that doesn’t mean that the rune won’t be used, especially if it offers a utility that’s more valuable than the stat increase itself.

mtpelion.4562:

Thief pistol gets bleed on hit at 900 range
Ranger shortbow gets weaker bleed only on hits from behind or the side at 900 range

Obviously pistol is the weapon that needs a buff

/sarcasm

I think most people would agree that shortbow needs a buff for rangers. I don’t see what that has to do with the topic at hand though. Just because one weapon is kinda crappy, that doesn’t mean others have to be bought down to their level. XD

It would honestly be nice if ranger shortbows were a better alternative to the currently rather dominant longbow.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Firstly, I’m not complaining. Just pointing out what rangers can achieve in terms of stealth. I don’t see why stating facts is taken as complaining these days.

Secondly, I’ve seen plenty of longbow rangers using traps and runes of the trapper in WvWvW and PvP. Besides, longbow rangers using runes of the trapper aren’t necessarily aiming to do damage with their traps in the first place (because that would reveal them out of stealth). It would be used more for utility. Just because a stat on a rune might not be useful to a particular build, that doesn’t mean that the rune won’t be used, especially if it offers a utility that’s more valuable than the stat increase itself.

Well I can’t deny there might be people out there who want to make a build with longbow and a stunbreak, fury and condition removal from survival skills (and of course cooldowns on a healing skill too) for a limited amount of stealth and reduced amount of power or other stat combo available, but normally people would want their gear, weapon and runes to have a symbiosis. Let’s agree to that they exist

Vikkela.7261:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Firstly, I’m not complaining. Just pointing out what rangers can achieve in terms of stealth. I don’t see why stating facts is taken as complaining these days.

Secondly, I’ve seen plenty of longbow rangers using traps and runes of the trapper in WvWvW and PvP. Besides, longbow rangers using runes of the trapper aren’t necessarily aiming to do damage with their traps in the first place (because that would reveal them out of stealth). It would be used more for utility. Just because a stat on a rune might not be useful to a particular build, that doesn’t mean that the rune won’t be used, especially if it offers a utility that’s more valuable than the stat increase itself.

Well I can’t deny there might be people out there who want to make a build with longbow and a stunbreak, fury and condition removal from survival skills (and of course cooldowns on a healing skill too) for a limited amount of stealth and reduced amount of power or other stat combo available, but normally people would want their gear, weapon and runes to have a symbiosis. Let’s agree to that they exist

Yeah, they do exist. And yes, I do also agree that they’re not necessarily the best builds or combos. The main point I was actually getting at is that just because a class has access to long range and stealth, it doesn’t mean it’s going to end up being OP or anything, nor does it mean they are breaking some secret code of how ANet thinks people should play.

In the end, what I was getting at was that I don’t see how it can be so bad for pistol thieves to get a small range increase, just because they have stealth, when other classes can use stealth coupled with superior range. Rangers were just an example and the fact that you don’t see longbow stealth builds anywhere in their meta builds, is, I think, a good indication that range + stealth on its own does not automatically = epic or OP build. There are a lot of other factors involved beyond just that.

BrotherBelial.3094:

The point is, the devs feel that thieves don’t need it to be base line as its not firing with the way the class plays

That’s a rather presumptuous thing to say. Do you work for ArenaNet? No? Then you don’t know how they “feel” unless they’ve made a public statement on it; this very thread was created in the first place because they have not.

You also have yet to explain why one class getting an already existing trait made baseline suddenly clashes with the Thief “playstyle”. Does that “playstyle” include being the only class not included in game-wide systems changes? What an odd way to “play”…

also balance. If a thief could attack al long range stealth move and attack again. It would be like a ranger having access to a bucket of stealth imagen the pew pew rangers with that much stealth. The game wold become, long range stealth shooting. I would guess ANet is not a fan of that idea.

Good thing that’s not what a single person in this thread is suggesting!

I honestly have to ask… other than you clearly getting blown up by them in SPvP all the time, do you actually know anything about Thief? It is very baffling as to why you’re stuck on the idea of the shortest range class in the game suddenly becoming overpowered the moment it reaches 1050 range on its worst weapon set—in a game where several other classes can hit you from 1500+ away on their best.

Also, Thief Pistol has precisely ZERO ways of entering stealth from outside of melee range, so I see no reason why a baseline increase in range would suddenly make Thief a stealth-from-long-range machine.

But please, explain. I’m all ears.

I know nothing about the thief class and I’m still quite befuddled with all the new traits and the whole core specializations thing. But, I do appreciate getting some good information in this thread. I do see more debate over thief class than others.

Of all the mmo games I’ve played, the complexity of class builds and professions is highest in this game. I like this game better than all the other games I’ve played too.

they probably should get pistol range baseline.

At the same time however, ricochet doesn’t need to be part of that package. It can easily be rolled together with the current ankle shot trait.

See it this way: They could’ve given thief a useful trait.

TexZero.7910:

they probably should get pistol range baseline.

At the same time however, ricochet doesn’t need to be part of that package. It can easily be rolled together with the current ankle shot trait.

Yeah, I think that would be the best option too.
1050 range baseline, and bouncing bullets(ricochet) going with current ankle shot trait.

It would bring back the old gameplay for all ricochet pistol users (it’s not just about number 3 p/p), and would make the choice of the second level of critical strike section meaningful -> either go full ferocity, or vulnerability, or aoe. Without cumulating two of them at once which would be quickly seen as OP (rightfully I kind of think).

I think it’s the best way to solve all of this while not getting a ton of backlash from the receiving end.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Amante.8109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

a good thief will get 2 hitted more often then 2 shotting his enemy.
or a good thief will just play the “kitten ” mode and constantly hide and makes fight so long cus its only way to win..

while in reality thief is a “burst character”
burst should be a char that is suppose to come in unload load of damage and gtfo no?

well that burst part we suck at pretty bad.

Thief deserves some range increase but I don’t know if pistol is the one that needs it. It’d make sense to give some flavor to a vastly underused set but the only reason I would want longer range is to poke at a group with my sb because going into melee range would get me killed instantly. I think more of the issue is pistol in general, making the range increase baseline would fix next to nothing.

On a semi-related note, the whole argument of “thief is the melee specialist” is kitten, they die in seconds if they don’t take every precaution when in melee range, and there are classes that can out dps thief in melee and range with their respective builds. Why do non-thief players continue to want us pushed into 1 build and 1 playstyle? Raging at the wrong class with no facts or actual experience. Thief is not in a good place, hasn’t been for a long time. Only reason they exist is because many people haven’t given up on it yet.

The thing is, we’re not discussing a “balance change” of adding range to a weapon that isn’t already there. Thief Pistol can already get that range increase, it just has to take a junky trait in a junky line to get it… which still doesn’t make sense, given how no other profession in the game has to do that to get their skirmish-range weapon to 1050.

But yes, that would change very little about the role of the Pistol for the profession at the moment, given that it’s arguably Thief’s weakest weapon set. All the more reason there’s literally nothing to lose by bringing its range up to the same standards of every other ranged weapon in the game.

Thank you for acknowledging the “melee specialist” fallacy, by the way. It seems to me that Thief is less of a melee specialist and more of a melee pragmatist: either you run D/P and Shortbow or you don’t contribute anything of value in PvP. Even then, it’s far too easy to get blown up with our nerfed dodges and lowest in the game base HP + durability.

It would be great to have more build options, as just about every other profession gets tanky, support, or condition builds as choices. But that would require a sizable revamping of the Thief, and right now it’s hard enough as is to get developer attention on simple, low impact changes that would be easy to implement… such as the topic of this thread.

On another note, this thread was just moved by a moderator to the Thief subforum, so there goes the chances of it ever seeing the eyes of a developer.

Oh well…

Amante.8109:

On another note, this thread was just moved by a moderator to the Thief subforum, so there goes the chances of it ever seeing the eyes of a developer.

Oh well…

And you tried that hard to disguise your thief-complaint!

Come to think of it: Where’s Zero?

I felt that it was relevant to General as well, since it involved a game-wide systems change that only one profession was left out of.

That they never seem to read this forum also contributed a little bit

Amante.8109:

I felt that it was relevant to General as well, since it involved a game-wide systems change that only one profession was left out of.

That they never seem to read this forum also contributed a little bit

Well, if it’s any comfort: at least the mod who moved your complaint has read it. And believe me: any complaint about thieves will be heard =)

The general thief range discussion always seems to go off the rails at the point of over comparing specific abilities/weapons of other classes.

For me, it comes down to range envelopes. Thieves can’t fight at range without also being inside their opponent’s range envelope. It is incredibly difficult fight at range and stay alive. As soon as we start talking about anything other than 1v1, the fact that every other class can fight at 1200 or further (regardless of the specific weapons) puts thieves at a huge disadvantage. This is most obvious in WvW.

If you’re going to make the “thief = melee” argument then you’ll need to address why tank classes get both melee and ranged benefits (and much better survivability). And why “backline” classes have access to stealth at ALL (regardless of the details). You’ll also need to address the problem with thief in WvW. It’s a zerg venue. Thieves get pushed into scouting, hunting stragglers, and camp flipping (assuming there aren’t multiple zergs working the map and timers). That’s not much of a role. It’s also a role performed as well or better by rangers and mesmers.

I invite anyone who thinks everything’s fine with thief range to take a p/p thief into WvW on a server that has an actual population, and show us all how it’s done. I will gladly learn from you.