Guild Wars 2

We were way too kind in our demands guys. We have been duped with the previous nerf, making us think that this was all about “Balance”.

Do I need to remind all of you the skill/utilities that were passed around?

- a skill that blocks and attacks AT THE SAME kitten TIME.
- a skill that distorts time, reverting back to the user’s orginal HP with weapon and utility CDs
- a 1000 range skill that acts as an evade + leap finisher… (we can’t even get D/D #3 moving an extra evade frame)
-all dem reveals.
- mass stunbreak
- a constant 16 stacks of might
- THE LIST GOES ON about 5 chapters.

I am telling you guys, this was never about balance. It really never was, and we were way too kind thinking about how other professions wouldn’t cope with our suggestions and gameplay. We are the true victims of this disgusting story.

Forget about all of this, and if you have played WoW before will understand the term “Greed Before Need.”

BWE3 must not escape us, ask away, as outrageous as it may sound. Just ask away. They are obviously playing the lottery with us. It may be a little late, but this is actually the law the jungle.

Do not be fooled by non-thieves pointing fingers, nor be stoic and restrained when it comes to balance.

You are absolutely right, and I’m going to refer back to something I said recently in another thread:

Amante.8109:

Most of us have been patient for the better part of three years. The time for patience is over: HoT is now a month away and elite specializations revealed after ours are looking more thoroughly developed and significantly better overall (not to mention the years worth of still unaddressed design flaws with the Thief profession itself).

If anything, we need to be relentlessly vocal. It’s unfortunate, but it has been proven through similar situations in other MMOs that that the only way to get results as a marginalized class is to get extremely loud and make such a big stink that the developer can’t financially afford to keep ignoring it.

This doesn’t mean to get abusive, inflammatory, or mired in negativity, because there’s plenty of that to go around on this subforum already. It means standing together to hold ArenaNet accountable. Don’t accept vague, non-specific responses like “pistols are something we’re looking to improve”; demand concrete statements of intent and a tentative roadmap on how they plan to get the profession where it needs to be. Otherwise, we will continue to be ignored for another three years until the next expansion comes around and they want our money again…

Agree with you both, things need to change around here. Trust me if Arena sees that people are serious enough about certain things they’ll have no choice but to act.

People need to start using other avenues than these forums to get their attention as well, as that has helped in similar situations with other games. These forums are really only looked at by people already playing the game. To really make a MMO developer sweat, you have to engage them on Twitter and other publicly visible places where a poor (or lack of) response makes them look bad to people who haven’t picked the game up yet.

Amante.8109:

This doesn’t mean to get abusive, inflammatory, or mired in negativity, because there’s plenty of that to go around on this subforum already.

I think that this is the most important part. We need to push for change, but we need more than people complaining about how bad they think ANet is at balance to get those suggestions taken seriously.

I should also note that when structuring your proposed changes, it would do good to explain your reasoning behind your suggestions. If we can understand the reasoning behind what you are looking for, maybe we can build on it or point out flaws with those suggestions.

Now my personal wish…is to not be so dismissive of the suggestions made by non-thieves. I know it sounds bad since most of the time they shout for nerfs and such…and maybe they don’t understand certain things about our class, but what I think all of us need to understand is that what we want for ourselves isn’t necessarily fun for other classes to fight against. Of course they should offer us more than simply “thief op,” but if they give us suggestions on class changes, I don’t think we should be so quick to dismiss their claims, even if we think they are wrong.

It’d help if there were more than literally one non-Thief player suggesting constructive and well-thought changes. And believe me, it’s just that one—I’ve been keeping track

Amante.8109:

It’d help if there were more than literally one non-Thief player suggesting constructive and well-thought changes. And believe me, it’s just that one—I’ve been keeping track

Should I ask on the PvP forums…I’m somewhat afraid to do so…but that would probably get feedback haha

Oh man… if you think it’s bad here, it’s even worse on the PvP forum. Tread lightly!

Ok let’s start then:
I don’t care about balance or what could be OP since devs seem to not care as well..
1- revert back the original damage on C&D plus add blind effect to the skill
2- revert back the original damage on dagger skill 4
3- change dual dagger skill 3 to AoE physical damage instead of bleeding damage and add an immobilize effect to it
4- increase base backstab damage
5- remove casting time from sword skill 2, increase the immobilize effect, make it be a stun break again on shadow return
6- make sword/dagger skill 3 fully unblockable and steal 2 boons again
7- make higher boyh the damage and projectile speed of postol autoattacks
8- make ricochet native in dual pistol 3 (unload)
9- pistols and shortbow to 1200 range
10- add a blast effect to pistol nr 4
feel free to add more, I got to go to work now

Amante.8109:

Oh man… if you think it’s bad here, it’s even worse on the PvP forum. Tread lightly!

Well…it’s done now…I’m sorry if I have just unleashed the biggest kittenstorm this forum has ever seen.

You guys do realize that thief was current mesmer level strong before trait revamp and even stronger before…and you have been patient…What?

Lenaios.2781:

You guys do realize that thief was current mesmer level strong before trait revamp and even stronger before…and you have been patient…What?

I don’t ever recall a time where the Thief was stronger than a Mesmer. What you are saying is that before trait “revamp”, the Thief was the strongest profession in the game. Are you sure about that claim? Because we both know this is complete nonsense.

Thief as a top 5 of profession? I would agree with you but to say the Thief was stronger than the Mesmer, PvE, PvP and WvW taken into account? You must be joking.

To some extent, you do prove the point that Thief WAS in fact in a better position than it is now. Therefore, something has to be done, and it’s not about balance.

I will just say it here that I feel for every other thief out there trying to make it work on a competitive level. Successful ones are now for 100% the BEST players in gw2 for choosing a class that requires twice the effort and attention to be half effective.

Of all the state we’re “reduced” in… we still found a way and adapted. We thought hey, this ain’t too bad… I can no longer successfully 1v1 but alright, our role has shifted to +1, decapping and stealth resses… Cool, lets roll.

(insert more QQ by ignorant casuals who can’t even fight this simple mechanic)
(Anet throws revealed mechanics — be a dodge monkey or GTFO)

Well played. You know what though? We WILL endure. We WILL adapt… Thanks to your remorseless nerfs to thief and blind buffs to classes we have become the monsters that we are. Rest assured we will succeed.

We will still succeed after you push us to such corner you’ll be ashamed and disgusted by your sense of balance. Only then you will face yourselves in the mirror and admit you’ve been nothing but a mean kid with a magnifying glass, picking up on ants on broad day light.

Good day and hope this message ridicules the situation and people who’re responsible until it gets deleted.

TWEET LOUD FELLOW THEIVES – FLY MY PRETTIES!!

https://twitter.com/Dakeyrus/status/646281124776308736

Kocoff.7582:

Lenaios.2781:

You guys do realize that thief was current mesmer level strong before trait revamp and even stronger before…and you have been patient…What?

I don’t ever recall a time where the Thief was stronger than a Mesmer. What you are saying is that before trait “revamp”, the Thief was the strongest profession in the game. Are you sure about that claim? Because we both know this is complete nonsense.

Thief as a top 5 of profession? I would agree with you but to say the Thief was stronger than the Mesmer, PvE, PvP and WvW taken into account? You must be joking.

To some extent, you do prove the point that Thief WAS in fact in a better position than it is now. Therefore, something has to be done, and it’s not about balance.

I dont know what game you are playing but before trait revamp mesmers(and to a less extent other zerk professions) were free food for thief. No thief has never been number one profession never said that. But thief was as strong before the trait revamp as the current mesmer now is. Only the celestial trio could give thieves problems pre revamp.

So Thief went from the 4th prof to the bottom 2 and you’re saying that’s alright?

Shouldn’t all professions be balanced in PvP though…

As a side note while we’re doing all this, can we all make an effort to avoid feeding the trolls?

Just looking at the boards the last few days I’ve already noticed a pattern among a handful of individuals – they’re not here to discuss or learn, they’re simply here to shout down anything a thief says with misinformation and derision. You can’t stop them from posting, but lets just ignore whatever drivel they spew and stay on point.

Thanks.

evilapprentice.6379:

As a side note while we’re doing all this, can we all make an effort to avoid feeding the trolls?

Just looking at the boards the last few days I’ve already noticed a pattern among a handful of individuals – they’re not here to discuss or learn, they’re simply here to shout down anything a thief says with misinformation and derision. You can’t stop them from posting, but lets just ignore whatever drivel they spew and stay on point.

Thanks.

I absolutely agree. Obvious trolls are obvious.

Sarrow.2785:

TWEET LOUD FELLOW THEIVES – FLY MY PRETTIES!!

https://twitter.com/Dakeyrus/status/646281124776308736

hahhaha he went ahead and did it.

Lenaios.2781:

Kocoff.7582:

Lenaios.2781:

You guys do realize that thief was current mesmer level strong before trait revamp and even stronger before…and you have been patient…What?

I don’t ever recall a time where the Thief was stronger than a Mesmer. What you are saying is that before trait “revamp”, the Thief was the strongest profession in the game. Are you sure about that claim? Because we both know this is complete nonsense.

Thief as a top 5 of profession? I would agree with you but to say the Thief was stronger than the Mesmer, PvE, PvP and WvW taken into account? You must be joking.

To some extent, you do prove the point that Thief WAS in fact in a better position than it is now. Therefore, something has to be done, and it’s not about balance.

I dont know what game you are playing but before trait revamp mesmers(and to a less extent other zerk professions) were free food for thief. No thief has never been number one profession never said that. But thief was as strong before the trait revamp as the current mesmer now is. Only the celestial trio could give thieves problems pre revamp.

You must have been perma blinded because what you said is still not true. Mesmers were by far a prominent profession before revamp. You saying that Thief before then was as good or better than a Mesmer leads to the point that, you did in fact, say that Thieves were at the very top, above Mesmers. If it was strong before, it should have been left strong not torn to pieces like you clearly advocate.

Strong should remain strong, and the phylosophy is to have for all the other professions to reach that apex. This is the true meaning of balance, not bringing one down for the sake all of the other 8 professions.

You said it yourself “Thief was as strong before the trait revamp as the current mesmer now is.” Needless to say, there is something inherently wrong about that sentence.

What is so hard about sending the Thief back to it place? Can you really call the state of the Thief Balanced? With about 90% of PU mesmers not really giving a kitten whether or not there are 5000 reveals out there?

Really? Cause i remember mesmers especially being just toys for thieves to do whatever they wanted to before trait revamp. If you had problems with mesmers before patch you have no place to say anything about balance. Now that said I’m aware that thief is in a bad spot right now and needs abit of love on their defenses. But I see lot of thief QQ posts ppl make without even realizing how strong you were and blabbering about being patient for 3 years about how “weak” thief was.

[bold] What about 90% of PU mesmers not really giving a kitten whether or not there are 5000 reveals out there?[/bold]

The fact they don’t care needs to while all kinds of thieves do should tell us something.

Past doesn’t really matter anymore mate. I can’t keep on reminiscing the glory days with Stolen Plasma in my hand and expect things to go smooth.
The only good thing about the past is to see where we are currently located.
Thief was in a good spot. Thief is now in a terrible spot. Thief needs some serious fixing and support. period.

I have been patient 3 years? More like since that terrible patch lol. Misplaced traits, nerfed traits, healing skills not fixed, broken core traits that aren’t really relevant anymore, etc.
Asking for the simplest of fixes leads nowhere, yet you see other professions get the same exact thing without any difficulty.

We have been weak since then, and patient for that same amount of time. You can call that “blabbering” if you want, but this is an urgent matter. I am pretty sure when HoT releases, you won’t be stuck with a 1200+ hours vegetable.

I totally agree with being vocal about our constructive feedback, even if we are off base with our desires for DrD and baseline Thief, we should still voice anything that may benefit the class and help mold the specialization. This is generally the rule of thumb for all constructive beta feedback for up and coming classes. Something that I can interpret is that our assigned class mod, Karl, is more reluctant to keep us posted on the Daredevil desires/changes. This could be due to the Tempest uproar/feedback keeping him busy, but honestly, we can’t just berate the forums with doom and gloom and expect our class to be reverted to its prior glory. We have to keep our feedback easy to read, and level headed and hope that it helps speed up the back and forth between the community and the developers.

Yes as I said here and in other thread, thief does need buffs on defensive department. Like someone else said that revealed training should give protection on reveal, but otherwise active defense. You know “in and out” style defense that thief has been for me(mainly S/D player) which the DD seems to be bringing.

Now it does make me a bit mad and sad that loads of thieves seem to think(or lie in hopes of some OP buff? Or just lie to themselves) that they have been bottom profession for the entirety of the game. And most of these kind of posts start with that kind of story instead of actual good pointers for devs and the community.

On the bright side we can still stealth rifle warriors to get in headshots unseen.

Imhotep.3850:

I totally agree with being vocal about our constructive feedback, even if we are off base with our desires for DrD and baseline Thief, we should still voice anything that may benefit the class and help mold the specialization. This is generally the rule of thumb for all constructive beta feedback for up and coming classes. Something that I can interpret is that our assigned class mod, Karl, is more reluctant to keep us posted on the Daredevil desires/changes. This could be due to the Tempest uproar/feedback keeping him busy, but honestly, we can’t just berate the forums with doom and gloom and expect our class to be reverted to its prior glory. We have to keep our feedback easy to read, and level headed and hope that it helps speed up the back and forth between the community and the developers.

I keep forgeting Mr. Mclain is assigned the Daredevil and the Tempest. Curiously enough both are angry about the changes done to them. It’s probably because the Dev actually takes into account the balance. While the others are going all out with their respective and assigned elite specs.

I don’t how Anet works, but it must be incredibly difficult taking care of Thief and Elementalist, I mean they are have so little in common..

Lenaios.2781:

Yes as I said here and in other thread, thief does need buffs on defensive department. Like someone else said that revealed training should give protection on reveal, but otherwise active defense. You know “in and out” style defense that thief has been for me(mainly S/D player) which the DD seems to be bringing.

Now it does make me a bit mad and sad that loads of thieves seem to think(or lie in hopes of some OP buff? Or just lie to themselves) that they have been bottom profession for the entirety of the game. And most of these kind of posts start with that kind of story instead of actual good pointers for devs and the community.

What do you want from those thieves sir? an apology? This post isn’t about good pointers for devs. It is addressed to the community, and I am telling the whole Thief forum to forget about being reserved in their demands because the others are not at all, and we need to be aware of that for the next BWE.

As for the story, like any good story, It’s only natural that it starts with us being weak, us being cornered, not only because it gets people to participate in the talk, but most importantly because it is true. The threads I start never get straight to the point.

There are plenty of constructive threads with amazing suggestions and feedback in the forums. They are scattered all over the place and are not very hard to find (Shout out to Ronpierce.)

This Thread, unfortunately, is not one of them.

Anet has their own vision, even if it’s clouded by sub-par devs. They will not make changes based on our feedback. The feedback they often look at is from non-thieves.

Don’t get your hopes up. Daredevil is going to ship with broken dodges, crappy animations, still-broken traits/mechanics 3 years running, and they will laugh all the way to the bank, surfing through the front door on our complaints.

Want to play thief as many of us imagine it? Re-roll Revenant. Our dev has zero imagination, and even less concern/enjoyment of the profession.

edit: spelling fixes

uglydan.1638:

Anet has their own vision, even if it’s clouded by sub-par devs. They will not make changes based on our feedback. The feedback they often look at is from non-thieves.

Don’t get your hopes up. Daredevil is going to ship with broken dodges, crappy animations, still-broken traits/mechanics 3 years running, and they will laugh all the way to the bank, surfing through the front door on our complaints.

Want to play thief as many of us imagine it? Re-roll Revenant. Our dev has zero imagination, and even less concern/enjoyment of the profession.

edit: spelling fixes

That’s what I fear….. that is exactly what I don’t want to but will, one way or another eventually happen.

“The feedback they often look at is from non-thieves. " That’s a little unreasonable don’t you think ?
If we follow this logic, then we can say that they often look at non-ele feedback for real feedback. That’s counterproductive.

I just want people to be aggressive during BWE3, and I am confident they will.

It’s not unreasonable when it’s the truth. What makes it different from other professions like you mentioned, is that stealth is what makes people rage. “It’s unfair” is the non-thief battlecry. Ever wonder why there’s more and more reveals coming?

It’s my opinion that those in charge of balance are making any spec that utilizes stealth weaker, to make DD more appealing, something of a weaning us off stealth so when they do remove it, there won’t be quite the outcry.

Thieves have a long history of getting nerfed, someone finding a new spec that really performs, and then that gets nerfed, ad infinitum. And you wonder why people get so bitter?

So, no, it’s not unreasonable.

I as a passionate thief player absolutely agree.
I’m sick of the current state of the thief, that reduces the whole class to being a +1 pet, where I remember, how the class was alot better like 1-2 years ago, where it felt alot more being in a right place..

But all this condition power creep, all this mechanic conversion of stealth to other classes and that even in much superior ways that make us thieves as masters of Stealth look like pathetic bloody beginners, the for all this power creep way too low and individually unbalanced base health values and the massive lack of alternatives for stealth are simply too much.

The point has been reached, where I’m absolutely fed up with the constant nerfs of the thief from patch to patch, while all other classes got mostly more and more buffed to the sky, while having much better acces to damage mitigations, have more health, can absurdly heal themself alot better and remove better conditions without beign reliant permanently on stealth, being basically gameplay mechanically classes for braindead, as they allow for much more mistakes in comba,t wherre you have to play practicalyl always at the thin line of perfection, where the slightest mistake instantly can end in your death, because of the thief beign so squishy for a medium class, much more squishy than Eles anmd Guardians, because they both have much better and superior heals and damage mitigations without beign constantly reliant on steallth or dodges or blinds as blinds as for all that damage and condition spam around you way too weak and conditions simply ignore way too much, deal way too easy way too high damage currently and the whole defense part of this game plain simply said sucks heavy and that since the begin of this game, without any attempts of changing that stigma of zerker of GTFO of the games attribute system which needs a dire redesign to a system with dual effects and better synergies for the defense department, so that defense attributes are alot more useful and actualyl make a significant difference in combat so that you will actually deal alot lesser damage agaisnt someone with high defense and that high vitality means actually also a clear significant difference in maximum health ,as vitality is since game relase WAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOOOOO WEAK!
10HP per Vit Pot is just ridiculously laughable and should have been increased already a long time ago to at least 25HP per Vit Point, if not maybe more (50), so that a high vitality build results halso in a clease massive amount of more health, so that damging conditions will take significantly longer time to become a danger for you, while they are naturally agaisnt someone with no vitality directly very deadly.
by improving significantly alot more the defense gameplay of this game, the attribute system would finalyl naturally balance itout itself, when people would realize, that they out of a sudden NEED to have better also some vitality and toughness in their build to survive longer and be more effective over logner time in combat, than to sacrifice all of that for just maximum DPS to be able to kill anyone and anythign in a matter of seconds.
A high defensive build shouldn#t be killable in like 3 seconds.. thats the appropiate time to kill a zerker player with no vitality and not defense, if that player is not cautious.
But agaisnt a skilled defensive player it should take significantly longer time, also as a zerker build and especially for someone, that is no zerker build.

The game is missing mechanics, aside from Weakness that make it possible to reduce enemy critical hit chance/critical damage as also mechanics, that makle it possible to reduce enemy condition durations and that without having to use for this buff items!!

To be effective as condition build, its direly needed, that for super high condition dps, you should need to have to use also like a direct damage build 3 attributes!!
It can’t be, that condition builds are easily now superior to direct damage builds and require of you just only 1 single attirbute to raise the DPS, while everythign else for them is literalyl just a nice to have extra bonus, while direct damage builds need to look after multiple different attributes just to get the DPS higher and then its even stil leasier to mitigate, than conditions as they just ignore all defense and mitiogations, as a blind doesn’t stop you from suffering condition damage, a block doesn#t stop you from suffering condition damage, a didge doesn#t stop you from sufferign condition damager…

The only thing that does this currently in this unbalanced game is RESISTANCE and even that is currently WAY TOO LIMITED accessible and sadly at the complete wrong professions that shouldn’t have resistance and already are good enough!! IWth engineer i could inderstand it , but Mesmers and Warriors shouldn’t have Resistance as long Thief doesn’t have easy access to it too.
Thief as a Boon Stealer should literally have 0 problems to get all the boons he needs to survive from all the enemies around them while fighting.
Boon Stealing needs to become more baselined and part of the inherent gameplay of the thief, because then it would be lesser of a problem, if thieves have no own access to boons like protection, resistance ect. because they simply constantly take it away from their enemies to weaken them and buff them self at the same time, dirty combatants as they are, using the powers of the enemy against them to overcome their foes with the help of the element of surprise, stealth and improvisation, where no other class should be better in that category, not even the scrapper as a specialization.

^^^^

This guy wrote 19 chapters I figured “if he is angry enough to write all of this, I should probably get reading.”

You made some very good points sir and I think your take on the profession’s survivability is the right path for us. Before I forget, don’t forget to share your points during BWE3 and in other threads.

1. Boon Theft should be a baseline for sure like you said, we are Thieves at the end of the day, stealing boons from people shouldn’t be a VIP or an advantage we get from a traits. This same idea should apply to Trickery’s Preparedness.

2. Resistance would be so beneficial to Thieves, and I was expecting the Daredevil would proc these from time to time but no… Resistance could be a real game changer, reduce to need to stealth and back away after only 3-4 conditions.

3. Weakness also applying to condition damage is a must. Never even thought about that.

4. I believe there needs to be a much bigger variety of stats because so far all I see is berserker Valkyrie or Dire . I myself run Valk. I know they have a huge array of stats, tThey should therefore promote fun builds for everybody to use anything. But that’s a long way from home.

The only thing I did not agree on was the The HP buff. There has to be more mechanics that promotes survival, such as resistance, protection and regen after leaving stealth. But please don’t forget to share your ideas in the other threads, because this one is kind of the wrong thread lol.

uglydan.1638:

It’s not unreasonable when it’s the truth. What makes it different from other professions like you mentioned, is that stealth is what makes people rage. “It’s unfair” is the non-thief battlecry. Ever wonder why there’s more and more reveals coming?

It’s my opinion that those in charge of balance are making any spec that utilizes stealth weaker, to make DD more appealing, something of a weaning us off stealth so when they do remove it, there won’t be quite the outcry.

Thieves have a long history of getting nerfed, someone finding a new spec that really performs, and then that gets nerfed, ad infinitum. And you wonder why people get so bitter?

So, no, it’s not unreasonable.

hmmmmmm fair enough. I get your point, althought i am still skeptical that Anet behaves that way. The outcry you mentioned however, is definitely undeniable, so fair enough.

I think mostly, Anet has a road map they will adhere to, regardless of hue and outcry from their customers. Many people have made excellent suggestions, yet Anet went through with whatever they had planned.

Oh, they take people’s suggestions into account… just not the ones from Thieves. A cursory look at the last three years of changes should tell they take non-Thief opinions of Thief very seriously.