Guild Wars 2

The meta is how we define a common role or build the everybody and their mom runs right? Interesting thing about it however is that how silly of a concept it is.

Imagine a world where every thief still played the game but couldn’t communicate. That means no sharing builds, no armor, no nothing, everybody went off what they figured out. There would be no meta, it would be a bunch of thieves playing in the way the have designed.

TL:DR
Ignore the meta and play in the way you think is coolest.

What if I told you people enjoy running meta?

Meta = Illusion you say?

Well Illusions = Mesmers

MESMERS ARE THE META

Celestina.2894:

Meta = Illusion you say?

Well Illusions = Mesmers

MESMERS ARE THE META

Thats pretty much what I already do. Just run whatever, but I don’t expect to run any content with people who would expect me to use meta builds (speed runs, etc.) I generally do dungeons and stuff with a friends who either do or don’t use meta builds.

Some people, however, do like using meta builds, and if they like that sorta thing, more power to them. I generally don’t play with these people, but thats because our paths don’t normally cross during my gameplay, and i’m looking for something else out of the game.

yodog.4208:

Imagine a world where every thief still played the game but couldn’t communicate. That means no sharing builds, no armor, no nothing, everybody went off what they figured out. There would be no meta, it would be a bunch of thieves playing in the way the have designed.

Assuming you have logical and reasonable people playing the game in this imaginary world of yours, the “meta” would still be around.

The “meta” as you call it is just an inevitability when you have many different agents looking to maximize efficiency.

Perhaps it wouldn’t spread as fast, however, assuming the players are logical and reasonable, they should all eventually come to the same, if not a very similar conclusion of what build/s are the most efficient to run in certain situations.

Its just like we all IRL have come to the conclusion (without much explaination mind you, just some basic logic) that the wheel/round shape is one of the most efficient methods of transporting mass from one location to another.

tl;dr meta builds are meta for a reason, and its not because they’re sparkly or special or taste like strawberries.

You have three types of people:
A) Those who will try various builds and ways of using them, compare them with other builds they’ve tried or know others have made, and play what they feel works best.
B) Those who seem to think builds just ’exist’, and look for the ones that others have made, try them out, and pick what they like best.
C) Those that MUST know what the most popular build is because that is obviously the best, and what they will use.

The people C end up using one of the builds that people A made, and that was the most popular among peoples A and B. This becomes the meta. So ultimately, what you’re suggesting is indeed what happens. ’Meta’ is just a word which means ’most used’ and it is most used because it is believed to be the most effective at a particular purpose.

At least, this is how it is in PvP, and probably general PvE. The confusion comes from elitist PVEers, who test builds and team compositions designed for quick dungeon completions. Each of those elitist guilds finds what they believe to be the best, and tries to both prove it with recordings and force it upon the rest of the community by declaring it "the meta".

Edit: Actually having thought more about it, I think instead of looking for the popular build, people are now starting to look to certain players who have proven their ability in the dying/dead meta specifically to ’create/find the next meta build’, and that once they declare it or are seen using a new build, that becomes the new meta for that class. That, I think is a daft way to think. But hey, it doesn’t really matter. If you disagree with the notion, just don’t do it, and leave the rest to sheep it up.

I mean: keep it up.

Reikou.7068:

Assuming you have logical and reasonable people playing the game in this imaginary world of yours, the “meta” would still be around.

The “meta” as you call it is just an inevitability when you have many different agents looking to maximize efficiency.

Perhaps it wouldn’t spread as fast, however, assuming the players are logical and reasonable, they should all come to the same (if not a very similar) conclusion of what build/s are the most efficient to run in certain situations.

Its just like we all IRL have come to the conclusion (without much explaination mind you, just some basic logic) that the wheel/round shape is one of the most efficient methods of transporting mass from one location to another.

tl;dr meta builds are meta for a reason, and its not because they’re sparkly or special or taste like strawberries.

This.

Players who take time to learn every trait and theorycraft, try different solutions and test out, usually know the most effective traits and utilities and how to use them for the role they want to accomplish. If players couldn’t communicate we would see more build diversity for sure, but it wouldn’t exterminate the fact that the most effective ways to set up traits for a certain role will always be the most effective.

A good example is a friend of mine who found out how to setup a basic meditation guardian build, “blackwater” mesmer and also spirit ranger long before they got popular.

While meta builds are meta for a reason, don’t forget that using exactly same build as majority makes it very easy for your enemy to predict your behaviour.

I just asked someone in SPvP why they play Meta build and not make their own build and the reply I got was;

“WHY WOULD I NOT PLAY META <innapropriate name here>?”

Why do these people even play the game? Where’s the fun in taking the game seriously and just copying everyone else. Some people genuinely forget that games are for enjoyment….

Zach.3264:

I just asked someone in SPvP why they play Meta build and not make their own build and the reply I got was;

“WHY WOULD I NOT PLAY META <innapropriate name here>?”

Why do these people even play the game? Where’s the fun in taking the game seriously and just copying everyone else. Some people genuinely forget that games are for enjoyment….

MMOs have become far from just for enjoyment. Back in 2D runescape or the old MUDs or something, maybe, but optimisation have become a part of the genre, and the games themselves push for it by balancing encounters around an optimised setup.

Even GW2 does this. It didn’t use to but Anet started putting hard DPS checks everywhere.

What then happens is the breeding of a mentality to be optimal. The metabuilds everyone uses are optimal. So everyone uses the metabuilds.

It’s lovely that some like to think old fashioned and run “their own builds” but let’s face it, people want the most optimal experience. Metas are the current tried and true and, of course, always subject to change. People want to feel useful and these builds are the common known of being useful so they are the “go to”. Now if you feel that your build is good and on par with the regular mold then speak up and show it off. People love something new and you could shift the meta in different direction.
On the other hand if you just want to run something “cool” but you’re more useless than a rock, I don’t see how that can be fun. One usually enjoys themselves more when they are more of a contribution but maybe that’s just me.

kitten Impact. You were perfect until that end part, quoted below:

Impact.2780:

At least, this is how it is in PvP, and probably general PvE. The confusion comes from elitist PVEers, who test builds and team compositions designed for quick dungeon completions. Each of those elitist guilds finds what they believe to be the best, and tries to both prove it with recordings and force it upon the rest of the community by declaring it “the meta”.

Edit: Actually having thought more about it, I think instead of looking for the popular build, people are now starting to look to certain players who have proven their ability in the dying/dead meta specifically to ‘create/find the next meta build’, and that once they declare it or are seen using a new build, that becomes the new meta for that class. That, I think is a daft way to think. But hey, it doesn’t really matter. If you disagree with the notion, just don’t do it, and leave the rest to sheep it up.

I mean: keep it up.

There IS a PvE meta. It does exist. For any particular dungeon path, there is an optimal party composition in respect to professions, and there are optimal builds (meaning traits, weps, gear, runes, sigils) for those professions for that particular path. These meta group comps are showcased in recorded speedruns, many of which are on gwscr.com. The meta builds used in these speedruns are published in guides on the profession subforums, YouTube, gw2guru, etc.

For non-optimal situations, such as a “p1, zerk only, ping gear or kick – no necro/engi” LFG group, meta group comps and builds still usually work, even if there is no TeamSpeak. Tactics used in these situations usually closely immitate meta gwscr tactics. Builds used in these situations are usually identicle/very similar to meta builds. And although these non-optimal runs are slower than the guild runs we record for gwscr.com, they are undoubtedly faster than a non-meta, no-particular-comp party would have been.

The only time when meta builds do not work is when party DPS is ridiculously low. Generally, if you gear-check the party for zerk, then meta-builds and group comps will work well and speed up the run. If you are the only zerker in a party of 4x PVT/clerics/magis bearbows/necros/staff guards, your meta build and gear will get you killed, and the 4 noobs in your party will be too stupid to implement or even comprehend meta tactics.

Impact.2780:

The people C end up using one of the builds that people A made, and that was the most popular among peoples A and B. This becomes the meta. So ultimately, what you’re suggesting is indeed what happens. ‘Meta’ is just a word which means ‘most used’ and it is most used because it is believed to be the most effective at a particular purpose.

That’s not entirely what Meta means, but the results end being the same. Your ABC type people is largely correct. I would name myself a B type player. Particularly with thief. I think in concepts, and then decide which one I want to use for each class.

P.S. (This should really be in the balance forum methinks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta
Meta as it applies to GW2 involves a few things. It has the definition here as “beyond”. The Metagame is “beyond the game”, or, information gathered outside the “in game text” in order to create something optimal. Optimal for what, depends on the focus. There is a healing meta, and control meta. There are individual meta builds within each profession. When people talk about the pvp meta, they’re (or should be) referring to team comps that perform optimally in either their particular group, or for most teams in general. Now, this performing optimally is based on what people do outside the game, or, theorycrafting, number crunching, and dedicated testing to find the true values of skills and traits. Things like damage and healing co-efficients are meta knowledge. The game doesn’t outright tell you these numbers, but by using them, you can find out how much more dps you’ll get per individual skill when you raise your power.

There are multiple metas that exist. People tend to get bogged down in specific metas at the exclusion of others. Some game modes don’t offer much to other metas. Some people have just never even heard about certain metas. But, they all exist. When in WvW, you don’t have to run a roaming or zerg meta build, at least one that’s meta to the community. You may have a separate build that is more finely tuned to your particular goals in playing, or skill set. So far, every post has some valid points. What I would like to say, is create your own meta. Find out what gives you playtime gratification, and build towards increasing that. There is no other way to play, than to maximize your individual enjoyment. If that means you need to run speedclear dungeons, then do so. If that means you need to become nigh-unkillable in WvW, then find out how. Once people understand that, then we won’t have need for Leet vs. Casul arguments. This becomes the ultimate play how you want. Optimizing your desired playstyle.

Anierna.6918:

kitten Impact. You were perfect until that end part, quoted below:

Impact.2780:

At least, this is how it is in PvP, and probably general PvE. The confusion comes from elitist PVEers, who test builds and team compositions designed for quick dungeon completions. Each of those elitist guilds finds what they believe to be the best, and tries to both prove it with recordings and force it upon the rest of the community by declaring it “the meta”.

Edit: Actually having thought more about it, I think instead of looking for the popular build, people are now starting to look to certain players who have proven their ability in the dying/dead meta specifically to ‘create/find the next meta build’, and that once they declare it or are seen using a new build, that becomes the new meta for that class. That, I think is a daft way to think. But hey, it doesn’t really matter. If you disagree with the notion, just don’t do it, and leave the rest to sheep it up.

I mean: keep it up.

There IS a PvE meta. It does exist. For any particular dungeon path, there is an optimal party composition in respect to professions, and there are optimal builds (meaning traits, weps, gear, runes, sigils) for those professions for that particular path. These meta group comps are showcased in recorded speedruns, many of which are on gwscr.com. The meta builds used in these speedruns are published in guides on the profession subforums, YouTube, gw2guru, etc.

For non-optimal situations, such as a “p1, zerk only, ping gear or kick – no necro/engi” LFG group, meta group comps and builds still usually work, even if there is no TeamSpeak. Tactics used in these situations usually closely immitate meta gwscr tactics. Builds used in these situations are usually identicle/very similar to meta builds. And although these non-optimal runs are slower than the guild runs we record for gwscr.com, they are undoubtedly faster than a non-meta, no-particular-comp party would have been.

The only time when meta builds do not work is when party DPS is ridiculously low. Generally, if you gear-check the party for zerk, then meta-builds and group comps will work well and speed up the run. If you are the only zerker in a party of 4x PVT/clerics/magis bearbows/necros/staff guards, your meta build and gear will get you killed, and the 4 noobs in your party will be too stupid to implement or even comprehend meta tactics.

You see, the meta is fine until it makes people close their minds towards new ideas. It’s all good running an optimal build, but when the meta becomes twisted to promote a mindset of ‘this is the best and if you got any new ideas, you’re wrong.’ it becomes a problem.

GW2 just seems to facilitate that problem more than other games. Maybe its the snail-paced balancing, the shallow combat system, or the locked skills. Something, but that mentality of ‘if you’re not running meta you’re definitely wrong’ is just spewing everywhere.

Ghotistyx.6942:

That’s not entirely what Meta means
-snip-

You’ve taken the single word ‘meta’ , identified it as a prefix, and appended ‘game’ to it. That’s all good, and your definition of metagaming is pretty much spot on. I don’t believe optimality is required of a particular an action or method for it to be considered metagaming, it must simply be a method or action. Whether it must involve the use of resources external to that found in the game is debatable. I imagine this is because what can be classified as external information is easily debatable. Many metagames are the result of nothing but an observation of the effects within the game. Some games may not provide sufficient information, resulting in the reverse engineering of the figures to find base values to calculate for a strategy. Some games do provide the information, and it has to simply be mentally considered. If you want to argue that knowledge of mathematics or experience is external to the game, then almost any action is metagaming.

But I’m moving off point. ‘Meta’ on its own does not refer to metagaming. While it is a prefix meaning ‘beyond’, it is irrelevant when it is used alone here. A word is simply a means of communicating information, and what is important is how the audience of the message interpret and understand the particular word. You are right that there are many metagames. The term ‘meta’ is used to refer to the most popular or most accepted metagame for the given area.

Yes, and the meta has always been an illusion. Which makes ‘everyone and their mother’ as its been coined, a follower.

This is why we can’t have nice things. Because people believe this is always and only one true way of doing things and getting things done quickly and efficiently. Its BS, and always has been.

What I think the current state of ‘Meta’ is merely what’s popular. It works, and it does what the paper says it does. It doesn’t suck. But it largely takes the human factor out of the equation. Awesome players > The One Meta.

Ever run into that person that runs pure Meta builds, but for the life of the group just can’t pull their own weight? Those are the situations where the illusion fails the most.

I feel that a certainly level of cunning and unpredictability towards one’s enemies is what makes a good thief a great one. It’s not something that can be entirely quantified on paper.

And this is not just about thieves either. Also, this:

Xae Isareth.1364:

You see, the meta is fine until it makes people close their minds towards new ideas. It’s all good running an optimal build, but when the meta becomes twisted to promote a mindset of ‘this is the best and if you got any new ideas, you’re wrong.’ it becomes a problem.

Xae Isareth.1364:

You see, the meta is fine until it makes people close their minds towards new ideas. It’s all good running an optimal build, but when the meta becomes twisted to promote a mindset of ‘this is the best and if you got any new ideas, you’re wrong.’ it becomes a problem.

The meta is found by theorycrafting to maximize damage. Theorycrafters do not close their minds to any ideas – they consider every method of optimizing dmg. And if a particular theorycrafter does not consider every option, there are plenty of other theorycrafters who analyze the data of their peers and will correct errors.

If you’d done any serious theorycrafting, you would know this. You would also know that the meta changes frequently, usually in response to game updates. The fact that the meta changes in response to new information, game updates, and better strategies proves that the meta does not ignore or suppress new ideas – it incorporates them.

Anierna.6918:

There IS a PvE meta. It does exist.

It would appear that your post is directed toward me in an argumentative manner, as if to say that I, at some point, stated there is no PvE meta. A simple re-read of the post you are attempting to oppose will reveal that you’re arguing against phantoms.

Of course, it might also be a result of attempting to take ’meta’ as both ’meta’ and ’metagame’, and therefore misunderstanding the first sentence in which I state "and probably general PvE." Given that the competitive play involves guilds vs guilds - developing new strategies in order to vie for the fastest completion time - there are not many strategies being used at once, and those that are are generally used by one guild at a time, thus there are many metagames, but rarely a meta among speed runners. Being that the ’PvE meta’ is the most commonly used set up in PvE, it is usually something completely different from what those competitive dungeon guilds use.

^However, awesome player+meta>awesome player without meta. Like I said, the meta itself is ok, its the mindset that’s the problem.

I also want to point out something else. If you look at the meta builds in PvP, they’re very different in philosophy to PvE. They have their weaknesses as well as strengths and I dare say there’s no one meta build that’s better than everything else.

That’s a good, fluid meta. It keeps mind open and acts a template for you to edit and adjust to make it your own. It also forces you to understand why it’s meta.

In PvE, the mind set is that there is a single solution. Everyone aims to play exactly a certain way and it makes people into zombies.

It’s not their fault. It’s down to the game itself. Making an optimised build for most of the dungeons in the game is a one variable equation: DPS. Everything revolves around DPS or group DPS because you should aim for needing nothing else.

This is different for PvP because there’s other variables. Condition clease, flexibility, survival, mobility and other things are involved in the core considerations of a build. It’s not there in such prominence in PvE.

I’m going to get slightly emotional here and say that I’m disappointed. The trinity’s biggest flaw to me was that it reduced the variables of the equation and created a dead meta where there a single best solution exists. I thought GW2 would get rid of that, but instead it entrenched it and made it fat worse. It’s lamentable.

Anierna.6918:

Xae Isareth.1364:

You see, the meta is fine until it makes people close their minds towards new ideas. It’s all good running an optimal build, but when the meta becomes twisted to promote a mindset of ‘this is the best and if you got any new ideas, you’re wrong.’ it becomes a problem.

The meta is found by theorycrafting to maximize damage. Theorycrafters do not close their minds to any ideas – they consider every method of optimizing dmg. And if a particular theorycrafter does not consider every option, there are plenty of other theorycrafters who analyze the data of their peers and will correct errors.

If you’d done any serious theorycrafting, you would know this. You would also know that the meta changes frequently, usually in response to game updates. The fact that the meta changes in response to new information, game updates, and better strategies proves that the meta does not ignore or suppress new ideas – it incorporates them.

I wasn’t talking about the theorycrafters themselves. I was talking about the general public.

Your second paragraph is one of the weaknesses of GW2. When a game constantly balances and patches, it keeps the meta fluid, and constantly reminds people that what’s best is a moving goal-post, and to keep their minds open.

GW2’s balancing is done on a snail’s pace, and the lack of new skills contribute to that.

Anierna.6918:

The meta is found by theorycrafting to maximize damage. Theorycrafters do not close their minds to any ideas - they consider every method of optimizing dmg. And if a particular theorycrafter does not consider every option, there are plenty of other theorycrafters who analyze the data of their peers and will correct errors.

If you’d done any serious theorycrafting, you would know this. You would also know that the meta changes frequently, usually in response to game updates. The fact that the meta changes in response to new information, game updates, and better strategies proves that the meta does not ignore or suppress new ideas - it incorporates them.

Just because all cars are vehicles, it doesn’t mean all vehicles are cars.

Calculating to find the best strategy to achieve X (e.g damage) is indeed metagaming. It does not mean that metagaming is the search for the strategy that achieves X. Neither the words ’optimal’ or ’best’, or any words synonymous therewith, followed by ’at’ and a specific goal, will be found in the definition of metagaming. In fact, those words alone without ’at’ most likely won’t be there. Although, one probably could word them in by saying something like "best at achieving a goal or serving a purpose"... but that’s still not specific and would just be splitting hairs for no purpose but to split hairs. I’m just saying they’ll likely not be there anyway to emphasize the point.

Impact.2780:

Ghotistyx.6942:

That’s not entirely what Meta means
-snip-

You’ve taken the single word ‘meta’ , identified it as a prefix, and appended ‘game’ to it.

Meta (when capitalized) is the same as Metagaming, without its base (at least, how I used it in my previous post). What I was going for, but lost to tangent, was that the Meta isn’t merely the most popular, but it becomes the most popular because it is thought to be the best. This is derived from the theorycrafting A and B do, and fed to the masses of C. When you get into a game mode, there are some assumptions that are made, which enable them to take a meta of their own.

The PvE (dungeon) Meta is full direct damage. There has been nothing so far that looks to move that from its spot. In WvW, it seems that for zerging, you’ll want damage backliners, with Control frontliners a la Warriors and Guardians. There’s nothing saying Rangers can’t be part of that frontline, also providing lots of control via Immobilize, but its not the Meta. In PvP, theres a lot of talk about a condition meta, where it is perceived that condition builds are best at accomplishing PvP tasks. There is nothing “in the game” that will tell you condition builds are better or worse than direct damage. There’s a slight but significant difference to finding things by “playing the game” and getting info “in the game”.

The point of the above paragraph is to illustrate that the perception of what builds are and do, entrench the Meta. There are many ways to contribute to the goals of a game mode or playstyle that aren’t part of that perception. This brings me to another point.

Xae Isareth.1364:

^However, awesome player+meta>awesome player without meta.

There’s nothing said about the anti-Meta. Anti-Meta, as I’m referring to it, is not a disregard for the current Meta, but rather its own meta built to counter the Meta. This doesn’t exist so well in PvE, where your encounter design is the anti-Meta, and once built, is largely the same. However, in pvp formats, the anti-Meta is very much worth building towards. If in WvW Hammer trains are the Meta, you’ll probably want something to try and stop them. If you do well, you’ll start a smaller meta that can put a stopper on the Meta. Depending on how well you accomplish this goal, you could potentially remove Hammer trains from the Meta (unless of course, there’s nothing to replace it. They’ll stay, but they’ll have to make room for your counter-train defenses).
All I’m saying really, is that people need to start learning how to optimize fun, rather than builds. If your fun comes through builds, that’s great, keep doing it, but focus on the fun first, and everything falls into place. I’m not trying to have an argument about semantics or anything with anyone, just trying to get some knowledge out there to help those who don’t know, or are confused. So, in reference to this quote above me, the anti-Meta could be much better than the Meta with equal skill, depending on how its built.

The point of the Meta is, that the game won’t tell you itself that Hammer trains were even a good idea. There is no trait text that will say “This pairs will with this trait, and if you get a bunch of gaurdians and warriors, you’ll be pretty dangerous”. This has to come from out of the game, or “beyond the game” thought to develop. As I also mentioned above, rangers can actually perform fairly well as a frontliner in a Hammer train. They don’t have Hammers, but they accomplish the ideas of the Hammer train, and that is Control. Their control is via Immobilize, and depending on pets, fear or the like. However, the perception is that rangers can’t actually do that, and so they aren’t part of the Meta.

All I’m saying really, is that people need to start learning how to optimize fun, rather than joining the Meta. If your fun comes through the Meta, that’s great, keep doing it, but focus on the fun first, and everything falls into place. I’m also not trying to have an argument about semantics or anything with anyone, just trying to get some knowledge out there to help those who don’t know, or are confused.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Impact.2780:

Ghotistyx.6942:

That’s not entirely what Meta means
-snip-

You’ve taken the single word ‘meta’ , identified it as a prefix, and appended ‘game’ to it.

Meta (when capitalized) is the same as Metagaming, without its base (at least, how I used it in my previous post). What I was going for, but lost to tangent, was that the Meta isn’t merely the most popular, but it becomes the most popular because it is thought to be the best. This is derived from the theorycrafting A and B do, and fed to the masses of C. When you get into a game mode, there are some assumptions that are made, which enable them to take a meta of their own.

The PvE (dungeon) Meta is full direct damage. There has been nothing so far that looks to move that from its spot. In WvW, it seems that for zerging, you’ll want damage backliners, with Control frontliners a la Warriors and Guardians. There’s nothing saying Rangers can’t be part of that frontline, also providing lots of control via Immobilize, but its not the Meta. In PvP, theres a lot of talk about a condition meta, where it is perceived that condition builds are best at accomplishing PvP tasks. There is nothing “in the game” that will tell you condition builds are better or worse than direct damage. There’s a slight but significant difference to finding things by “playing the game” and getting info “in the game”.

The point of the above paragraph is to illustrate that the perception of what builds are and do, entrench the Meta. There are many ways to contribute to the goals of a game mode or playstyle that aren’t part of that perception. This brings me to another point.

I’ve never heard of or seen ‘metagame’ or ‘metagaming’ shortened to ‘Meta’, specifically with a capital ‘M’… Language-wise, it doesn’t make sense to me. Logoically, it would require the former two terms to have the first letter capitalized as well. Nor does it make sense lexically, since it would be confused with ‘meta’.

It doesn’t make sense when you use it either. For instance, metagaming is using the strategies and or actions, and you say ‘Meta’ is metagaming, yet you also say “The PvE (dungeon) Meta is full direct damage” thus either changing its definition for a faction, or trying to say “The PvE metagame focus is full direct damage” instead with a word that can easily be confused for something else. You also place “The” in front of “Meta” at times, i.e “The metagaming”? That is how we use ‘meta’ when referring to the most popular set or subset of metagaming strategies and actions. It seems like you’re trying to pile a ton of meanings onto one word. Semantics indeed.

In any event, I made no reference to ‘metagame’ or ‘metagaming’ in the first place, merely ‘meta’ as it was written in and in the context of the original post.

I probably just failed at proper capitalization to make my points. “meta” is an abstract term that encompasses many concepts. The “Meta” is specific in relation to something specific. That’s how you have a pve meta. It’s the Metagame in relation to pve (Usually people don’t capitalize anyway, and such specifications are usually moot).

I still think we’re saying the same things, just two different ways, or with different weights.

Anierna.6918:

Xae Isareth.1364:

You see, the meta is fine until it makes people close their minds towards new ideas. It’s all good running an optimal build, but when the meta becomes twisted to promote a mindset of ‘this is the best and if you got any new ideas, you’re wrong.’ it becomes a problem.

The meta is found by theorycrafting to maximize damage. Theorycrafters do not close their minds to any ideas – they consider every method of optimizing dmg. And if a particular theorycrafter does not consider every option, there are plenty of other theorycrafters who analyze the data of their peers and will correct errors.

If you’d done any serious theorycrafting, you would know this. You would also know that the meta changes frequently, usually in response to game updates. The fact that the meta changes in response to new information, game updates, and better strategies proves that the meta does not ignore or suppress new ideas – it incorporates them.

This thread is in thief’s forum, not pve/dungeon forum. While in pve dmg is all that matters, pvp and wvw include other variables.

yodog.4208:

The meta is how we define a common role or build the everybody and their mom runs right? Interesting thing about it however is that how silly of a concept it is.

Imagine a world where every thief still played the game but couldn’t communicate. That means no sharing builds, no armor, no nothing, everybody went off what they figured out. There would be no meta, it would be a bunch of thieves playing in the way the have designed.

TL:DR
Ignore the meta and play in the way you think is coolest.

While it’s not good to simply C&P the top players’ builds without understanding the mechanics behind the trait/gear/skill choices and the gameplay involved, it’s also naive to think that all builds are roughly in-line in terms of effectiveness.

In your world, people would try a wide variety of builds, and those who picked out ineffective builds would soon realize that their build was ineffective, especially in PvP. Then they’d adjust their build. The players who picked out effective builds wouldn’t bother changing, since they’re doing good. Rinse and repeat until there’s certain builds that just dominate in terms of frequency. Meta is kinda like natural selection; it just emerges.

shrugs

It’s your choice. No one is forcing anyone to run meta or PHIW. Why does this thread exist?

dlonie.6547:

shrugs

It’s your choice. No one is forcing anyone to run meta or PHIW. Why does this thread exist?

Well. In terms of good game design, you will have a lot of people who can’t enjoy themselves unless they run optimised builds, so you make the meta enjoyable and interesting as possible, and correct it when the meta becomes something like spamming 2 skills over and over.

Reikou.7068:

tl;dr meta builds are meta for a reason, and its not because they’re sparkly or special or taste like strawberries.

It’s not? :’(

I’m sure a unicorn just died somewhere.

This is a very interesting discussion. As a non-thief related example, when I play ele in hotjoin spvp I typically run glassy S/D or S/F fresh air, which is not the current meta (celestial D/D or glassy staff). In fact I got in a long conversation with another ele who spent a while convincing how in every way S/D is inferior to D/D ele because the surivability and mobility are lower and that he thinks that D/D strength runes has better sustained damage, mobility, easier to use burst, and better cleave for trying to kitten up stealth. And he is probably right for most of those things, but I don’t really like to do the same thing in pvp as everyone else. I don’t care if scepter is an inferior weapon. I like the idea of being a glassy magical ninja bursting people down with complicated air burst combos, and even if I am hindered by survivability, mobility, crappy autoattacks, and long cooldowns, I don’t care about that meta because I feel really cool playing this way, and I generally do I great job as long as fights aren’t stacked ridiculously against me

That being said the pve meta is a more serious nature, because dungeons/fractals take time, and we don’t want them to take up more time than needed to get the rewards we want.

Celestina.2894:

Meta = Illusion you say?

Well Illusions = Mesmers

MESMERS ARE THE META

/Mesmer mind trick

You will delete your post within this thread and from then on never even refer anything (either direct or indirect) in reference to the mesmer ever again.

;P

nearlight.3064:

This is a very interesting discussion. As a non-thief related example, when I play ele in hotjoin spvp I typically run glassy S/D or S/F fresh air, which is not the current meta (celestial D/D or glassy staff). In fact I got in a long conversation with another ele who spent a while convincing how in every way S/D is inferior to D/D ele because the surivability and mobility are lower and that he thinks that D/D strength runes has better sustained damage, mobility, easier to use burst, and better cleave for trying to kitten up stealth. And he is probably right for most of those things, but I don’t really like to do the same thing in pvp as everyone else. I don’t care if scepter is an inferior weapon. I like the idea of being a glassy magical ninja bursting people down with complicated air burst combos, and even if I am hindered by survivability, mobility, crappy autoattacks, and long cooldowns, I don’t care about that meta because I feel really cool playing this way, and I generally do I great job as long as fights aren’t stacked ridiculously against me

That being said the pve meta is a more serious nature, because dungeons/fractals take time, and we don’t want them to take up more time than needed to get the rewards we want.

In your case, it’s kind of like you working as a doctor but being paid the wages of a secondary school teacher. You love being a doctor, you love saving lives, but most people cannot help but feel that they are just wasting more effort for less rewards.

Xae Isareth.1364:

nearlight.3064:

This is a very interesting discussion. As a non-thief related example, when I play ele in hotjoin spvp I typically run glassy S/D or S/F fresh air, which is not the current meta (celestial D/D or glassy staff). In fact I got in a long conversation with another ele who spent a while convincing how in every way S/D is inferior to D/D ele because the surivability and mobility are lower and that he thinks that D/D strength runes has better sustained damage, mobility, easier to use burst, and better cleave for trying to kitten up stealth. And he is probably right for most of those things, but I don’t really like to do the same thing in pvp as everyone else. I don’t care if scepter is an inferior weapon. I like the idea of being a glassy magical ninja bursting people down with complicated air burst combos, and even if I am hindered by survivability, mobility, crappy autoattacks, and long cooldowns, I don’t care about that meta because I feel really cool playing this way, and I generally do I great job as long as fights aren’t stacked ridiculously against me

That being said the pve meta is a more serious nature, because dungeons/fractals take time, and we don’t want them to take up more time than needed to get the rewards we want.

In your case, it’s kind of like you working as a doctor but being paid the wages of a secondary school teacher. You love being a doctor, you love saving lives, but most people cannot help but feel that they are just wasting more effort for less rewards.

Slight addendum.

Especially when the option to be work as a doctor and be paid as a doctor “should be” is out there.

Reikou.7068:

Xae Isareth.1364:

nearlight.3064:

This is a very interesting discussion. As a non-thief related example, when I play ele in hotjoin spvp I typically run glassy S/D or S/F fresh air, which is not the current meta (celestial D/D or glassy staff). In fact I got in a long conversation with another ele who spent a while convincing how in every way S/D is inferior to D/D ele because the surivability and mobility are lower and that he thinks that D/D strength runes has better sustained damage, mobility, easier to use burst, and better cleave for trying to kitten up stealth. And he is probably right for most of those things, but I don’t really like to do the same thing in pvp as everyone else. I don’t care if scepter is an inferior weapon. I like the idea of being a glassy magical ninja bursting people down with complicated air burst combos, and even if I am hindered by survivability, mobility, crappy autoattacks, and long cooldowns, I don’t care about that meta because I feel really cool playing this way, and I generally do I great job as long as fights aren’t stacked ridiculously against me

That being said the pve meta is a more serious nature, because dungeons/fractals take time, and we don’t want them to take up more time than needed to get the rewards we want.

In your case, it’s kind of like you working as a doctor but being paid the wages of a secondary school teacher. You love being a doctor, you love saving lives, but most people cannot help but feel that they are just wasting more effort for less rewards.

Slight addendum.

Especially when the option to be work as a doctor and be paid as a doctor “should be” is out there.

Not this poster’s case. He admitted himself that his s/d requires more effort and is also at the same time worse than d/d.

Impact.2780:

You have three types of people:
A) Those who will try various builds and ways of using them, compare them with other builds they’ve tried or know others have made, and play what they feel works best.
B) Those who seem to think builds just ‘exist’, and look for the ones that others have made, try them out, and pick what they like best.
C) Those that MUST know what the most popular build is because that is obviously the best, and what they will use.

The people C end up using one of the builds that people A made, and that was the most popular among peoples A and B. This becomes the meta. So ultimately, what you’re suggesting is indeed what happens. ‘Meta’ is just a word which means ‘most used’ and it is most used because it is believed to be the most effective at a particular purpose.

At least, this is how it is in PvP, and probably general PvE. The confusion comes from elitist PVEers, who test builds and team compositions designed for quick dungeon completions. Each of those elitist guilds finds what they believe to be the best, and tries to both prove it with recordings and force it upon the rest of the community by declaring it “the meta”.

.

Good post. To me, Meta = Sheeple. It always gives me a good laugh when on a Monday people demand that others use a specific build because they know it is the best and swear by it. Then someone creates a build that proves better. Now the people that were demanding a specific build on Monday have changed their tune and now demand the newer build. Innovators > Sheeple

Xae Isareth.1364:

Reikou.7068:

Xae Isareth.1364:

nearlight.3064:

This is a very interesting discussion. As a non-thief related example, when I play ele in hotjoin spvp I typically run glassy S/D or S/F fresh air, which is not the current meta (celestial D/D or glassy staff). In fact I got in a long conversation with another ele who spent a while convincing how in every way S/D is inferior to D/D ele because the surivability and mobility are lower and that he thinks that D/D strength runes has better sustained damage, mobility, easier to use burst, and better cleave for trying to kitten up stealth. And he is probably right for most of those things, but I don’t really like to do the same thing in pvp as everyone else. I don’t care if scepter is an inferior weapon. I like the idea of being a glassy magical ninja bursting people down with complicated air burst combos, and even if I am hindered by survivability, mobility, crappy autoattacks, and long cooldowns, I don’t care about that meta because I feel really cool playing this way, and I generally do I great job as long as fights aren’t stacked ridiculously against me

That being said the pve meta is a more serious nature, because dungeons/fractals take time, and we don’t want them to take up more time than needed to get the rewards we want.

In your case, it’s kind of like you working as a doctor but being paid the wages of a secondary school teacher. You love being a doctor, you love saving lives, but most people cannot help but feel that they are just wasting more effort for less rewards.

Slight addendum.

Especially when the option to be work as a doctor and be paid as a doctor “should be” is out there.

Not this poster’s case. He admitted himself that his s/d requires more effort and is also at the same time worse than d/d.

Well I admitted that in theory it is worse. In practice it can be better than d/d in some situations. And in the future the scepter skills could be reworked somehow. And anyway in regards to the doctor analogy, I don’t really agree with it because the scepter builds I run are a bit high risk high reward. In theory it’s inferior because it’s easier to kill than d/d and more effort is needed to get those rewards but overall, the nature of burst means I can kill someone much faster rather than wear them down with gradual damage and small amounts of telegraphed burst while out sustaining them.

I hope that makes sense.

nearlight.3064:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Reikou.7068:

Xae Isareth.1364:

nearlight.3064:

This is a very interesting discussion. As a non-thief related example, when I play ele in hotjoin spvp I typically run glassy S/D or S/F fresh air, which is not the current meta (celestial D/D or glassy staff). In fact I got in a long conversation with another ele who spent a while convincing how in every way S/D is inferior to D/D ele because the surivability and mobility are lower and that he thinks that D/D strength runes has better sustained damage, mobility, easier to use burst, and better cleave for trying to kitten up stealth. And he is probably right for most of those things, but I don’t really like to do the same thing in pvp as everyone else. I don’t care if scepter is an inferior weapon. I like the idea of being a glassy magical ninja bursting people down with complicated air burst combos, and even if I am hindered by survivability, mobility, crappy autoattacks, and long cooldowns, I don’t care about that meta because I feel really cool playing this way, and I generally do I great job as long as fights aren’t stacked ridiculously against me

That being said the pve meta is a more serious nature, because dungeons/fractals take time, and we don’t want them to take up more time than needed to get the rewards we want.

In your case, it’s kind of like you working as a doctor but being paid the wages of a secondary school teacher. You love being a doctor, you love saving lives, but most people cannot help but feel that they are just wasting more effort for less rewards.

Slight addendum.

Especially when the option to be work as a doctor and be paid as a doctor “should be” is out there.

Not this poster’s case. He admitted himself that his s/d requires more effort and is also at the same time worse than d/d.

Well I admitted that in theory it is worse. In practice it can be better than d/d in some situations. And in the future the scepter skills could be reworked somehow. And anyway in regards to the doctor analogy, I don’t really agree with it because the scepter builds I run are a bit high risk high reward. In theory it’s inferior because it’s easier to kill than d/d and more effort is needed to get those rewards but overall, the nature of burst means I can kill someone much faster rather than wear them down with gradual damage and small amounts of telegraphed burst while out sustaining them.

I hope that makes sense.

SoH thieves can eat celestial d/d eles alive in team fights and solo, if they are skilled enough. A burst ele can deal with those kinds of thieves very quickly. But zerker eles tend to use up all their utilities in the process of trying or actually bursting down said target.

yodog.4208:

The meta is how we define a common role or build the everybody and their mom runs right? Interesting thing about it however is that how silly of a concept it is.

Imagine a world where every thief still played the game but couldn’t communicate. That means no sharing builds, no armor, no nothing, everybody went off what they figured out. There would be no meta, it would be a bunch of thieves playing in the way the have designed.

TL:DR
Ignore the meta and play in the way you think is coolest.

Yup I agree I build and play to what I like but at the same time nothing wrong with using meta builds.