Pretty well balanced IMO. Versing enemy thieves was one of the biggest fears I had when planning around S/D but as I grow more experienced with the set I feel it to be (possibly) in a good spot for competitive play.
Currently in the process of making a video guide going over pros/cons, playstyle, possible build variants,analyzing viability, bugs and fixes for the set.
Pretty well balanced IMO. Versing enemy thieves was one of the biggest fears I had when planning around S/D but as I grow more experienced with the set I feel it to be (possibly) in a good spot for competitive play.
Currently in the process of making a video guide going over pros/cons, playstyle, possible build variants,analyzing viability, bugs and fixes for the set.
Nice action, Although Caed is very bursty; which allows you to kill him quite easily.
S/D could always hold its own against other thieves but now since LS is desperate its more forgiving at the cost of not having a semi reliable evade. What you had to push yourself against was Rangers.
Well played Jumper. I run a very similar set up to yours, though I go less for extreme init regen and more for over all utility. I simply can’t reconcile giving up Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep, and my Short bow. Otherwise, my traits are nearly identical to yours, and I run Signet of Agility.
Something else I do is run Sigil of Purity on my S/D set to help deal with condis. It’s probably not necessary and I could swap it out for something objectively better like Sigil of Energy, but I like it for whatever reason.
Your set up can definitely stay in a fight longer than mine, therefore stripping more boons and doing more damage, but mine offers more team utility. Do you think it’s necessary for an S/D thief to be all-in init regen and no shortbow to be effective at high level tPvP?
I Lynna I – Thief / Clownshooz – Engineer
Turbo Seksophonic – Ele / Guitar Wolfe – Mesmer
Isle of Janthir
Your set up can definitely stay in a fight longer than mine, therefore stripping more boons and doing more damage, but mine offers more team utility. Do you think it’s necessary for an S/D thief to be all-in init regen and no shortbow to be effective at high level tPvP?
Probably. You won’t last long enough to be applying enough pressure otherwise. The high endurance is necessary to survive. Any good team will just burn you down in stealth if you try running a 30 shadow art spec.
There really is no need for shortbow at all. I can disengage safely with sword2 99% of the time. Plus the energy and init regen from constant weapon swapping is somewhat necessary for sustain imo. The only thing you’re really losing from shortbow is the poison and ranged aoe for downed enemy/allies. This is probably the biggest weakness in high-end play.
Probably. You won’t last long enough to be applying enough pressure otherwise. The high endurance is necessary to survive. Any good team will just burn you down in stealth if you try running a 30 shadow art spec.
There really is no need for shortbow at all. I can disengage safely with sword2 99% of the time. Plus the energy and init regen from constant weapon swapping is somewhat necessary for sustain imo. The only thing you’re really losing from shortbow is the poison and ranged aoe for downed enemy/allies. This is probably the biggest weakness in high-end play.
I run a 0/30/0/30/10 spec like yours, though I believe you go for the init on Signet use, where as I run Furious Retaliation. I use stealth sparingly, for the occasional daze after a CnD, or sneaking and rezzing with refuge. I believe I use Infiltrators Strike pretty well and I do disengage with it, but the vertical mobility from short bow is hard to pass up, along with the things you mentioned.
I have a lot of success with my build, but then I don’t often fight the caliber of players you do. If I ever do break into high-end tPvP, I’ll probably have to revisit my build and do something like yours. Or go back to D/P burst.
Thanks for your response. I learned how to play a strong sPvP thief by watching your streams. Keep up the good work.
I Lynna I – Thief / Clownshooz – Engineer
Turbo Seksophonic – Ele / Guitar Wolfe – Mesmer
Isle of Janthir
Ive been working out S/D too. Its hard learning a new weapon set on top of an untested build. But from what Ive seen I agree it could work out great competitively.
What are you feelings as far as its role in Tpvp? I want to start trying that since it def has more of a support role then the older thief specs.
condi builds own this….. good 1 v 1 i suppose against alot of builds…. but not in group play :P not fast enough to kill…..and no sustainable recovvery in hp or in condi removal. fun as hell tho. i play 0 30 20 20 0 and works alot better in larger group play…or i play 10 0 30 30 0 for p/d bleed invis escape build for zergs that i never die in but to each their own. fun to watch.
Just a quick queston regarding those that using s/d atm in wvwvw, i just tried it some but for me it feels a lot of skills have some random delay like c&d, also certain effects when being in range of 600 on port like immoblise not proccing, backport on infiltrators bugging out and dissapearing on porting in when it should stay for 15 sec, maybe it’s just me but either wvwvw lagg is causing this, or this set needs a lot more polish, didn’t have these delays or random skill bugouts on others sets like d/d d/p p/d, but for some odd reason it happens on on s/d.
condi builds own this….. good 1 v 1 i suppose against alot of builds…. but not in group play :P not fast enough to kill…..and no sustainable recovvery in hp or in condi removal. fun as hell tho. i play 0 30 20 20 0 and works alot better in larger group play…or i play 10 0 30 30 0 for p/d bleed invis escape build for zergs that i never die in but to each their own. fun to watch.
you wud be lucky if u land your cloak and dagger right with those evasive spam kitten lol
i cuold beat it without even using CND. but thats not the point….in a real fight id use CND anywhere….i run infiltrators and steal….thats 2 free CnDs. 2 sneak attacks is more than enough to get a thief with no condi removal to 25% hp. plus blind powder…..HiS….and SR…..thas 3 more sneak attacks plus just as many evades….poitn being the very vest s/d could volley for a draw bc of escapes and reclusive ways. its a 1 v 1 build….and 1 v1 builds shouldnt be used to baseline good/bad ways/builds of a thief. p/d is amazing too but falls apart in wvw bc of aoe dmg /fear n stuns etc etc. IMO running 10 in shadowarts for the condi removal is not even a choice for thieves. i run it in every build. plus the extra heal points help bc i most offten use heals like withdraw and heal while stealthed.
i cuold beat it without even using CND. but thats not the point….in a real fight id use CND anywhere….i run infiltrators and steal….thats 2 free CnDs. 2 sneak attacks is more than enough to get a thief with no condi removal to 25% hp. plus blind powder…..HiS….and SR…..thas 3 more sneak attacks plus just as many evades….poitn being the very vest s/d could volley for a draw bc of escapes and reclusive ways. its a 1 v 1 build….and 1 v1 builds shouldnt be used to baseline good/bad ways/builds of a thief. p/d is amazing too but falls apart in wvw bc of aoe dmg /fear n stuns etc etc. IMO running 10 in shadowarts for the condi removal is not even a choice for thieves. i run it in every build. plus the extra heal points help bc i most offten use heals like withdraw and heal while stealthed.
What is your deal? I see you posting on other threads talk about “How my build is better” or “Playing against bad players (Like in you said in Coloxus thread)”.
How about “You put up or SHUT up” and post a video of how kitten you are.
hrm…hence me asking how to make my own video above on colloxeous’s thread. i never hate. i give my opinion. help other players by suggestion weak poitns vs strong points. i even give the weakpoitns of my builds/ my ideas. being unbiased and attempting to be fair. mroe than i can say for most and that post u responded to was repsonding to a hate msg about me"being lucky" to do a successful CnD. he made a point..then me counterpoint. not sure anyone woudl like my videos anyway. i dont roam as much as i like to help my guild/zerg/server
If you put up ill take my words back. But until then, all I,ve seen in your comments on different threads is how a build wont work in wvw or how your never killed in zergs (Come on, everyone gets killed in zergs from time to time) or how the people in the video are all crappy players.
0 0 30 30 10 (made a typo here before) 0_o
Shadow Arts :
IV Shadows Embrace
Removes 2 conditions for the first 3 secs of stealth.
VI Cloaked in Shadow
Blind all nearby enemies when applying stealth.
XI Shadow’s Rejuvination
Heals while in stealth.
Acrobatics:
I Descent of shadows
-50% Fall dmg + Stealth on fall damage.
VI Fleeting shadow
+50% move speed while stealthed.
XI Hard to catch
Shadowstep away 1200 range when any CC is applied to you. +12 sec swift.
TRICKERY:
III Instictual response
blind powder when u take 10% or more of your hp in dmg causing invis/aoe blind
FULL CARRION ARMOR/ACCS with matching jewels and 2 krait centaur 2 afflicted runes
WEAPONS p/d + SB use +10% bleed and major sigil of corruption on other. bow is your choice.
This is…..mark my words….the best overall build for thieves and especially viable now that revealed is back to 3 secs. ShadowArts/Acrobatics shouldnt be touched….but you can move the other 10 however u want. put it in last traitline for blind/invis on 10% of your hp in one hit…..or for mug which heals in first trait line. i did 5/5 split so i can apply poison on steal for those pesky healing 1 v 1 fights and the other 5 for 3 initiative when i miss CnD sometimes….the extra 3 can be a lifesaver. Your Defense lies with stealth….blinding neawrby foes and invis should keep the melee at bay……..daggerstorm/stealing whirl shoudl keep range at bay…..and removal of conditions in stealth should keep condi dealers at bay. make sure to dodge once after you go invis to screw with their idea of where you are at….never make patterns and keep switching it up…i love running right thru enemy lines as they never expect it. the zergs usually kill most builds/classes but with hard to catch ….you SS away then use blind powder or whatever u need or use SS away then invis then shadow return and run thru enemies…they never see it coming. ive personally trolled 20+ people for 5-10 mins….and not while invis i was letting them try. descent into shadows is the most undrated thief skill ever …especially in this build…..use it on large jumps to troll zergs into jumping after you (you have 22k ish hp with this build) when they see you at 50% hp on a jump…they need 23k+ to survive the same jump that puts you at 50%. also use it on small jumps….everytime u land (4-5sec reset) you get stealth…area blind….remove 2 conditions and a free setup for sneak attack…..in wvw / spvp there are so many small areas where you take lik 800 dmg for jumping down…now u take 400 and get several benefits from it. the biggest key to this build is patience….make sure you get the most of of every invis…time every attack….and place yourself but dont make it a pattern. this build can also run venom share just by switching utilities….so it doubles as 1 v x or works in zerg v zerg. the only nemesis to this build is d/p thief build as they drop condis….but IMO that build sux (although very fun/good at duels) it wont hodl up in big fights bc of fear…stuns….pulls/pushes and aoe dmg…..but in that same respect the d/p build u prolly wont beat…..wont beat you either. guardians are slow killing….but they WILL go down after the 25 sec mark in a fight they run out of gas usually. lil tip as when u run out of utilities….. dont forget to use the mosquitos etc the small creatures to go invis on or steal to to get away etc. if all u have is 6 intiaitve and steal left use CND…then quicklly press steal to finish the CND at your target…..its quick and rarely misses plus invis/blind/remove condis etc. also on stomps u have 2 choices when u 100% need to get that stomp off….use daggerstorm then roll out of it (lets u keep 8 secs stability) then stomp…OR trickier yet…make sure u always try CND then stomp as the blind usually blocks there KD or pushback. one trickier yet….is press F to stomp…then shadowstep away then shadow return right before it finishes and you wont be able to be stopped……if its a thief….just F then steal to wherever they teleport to. enjoy the build if u have any questions contact me in game.
this is what i wrote for my guild since i dont have video recorder yet. hope it helps :P
-You bring nothing to the group except SR res
-Condition damage is the weakest in wvw (every zerg will be constantly cleansing them)
-You are not trolling 20 man zergs in less they are all noobs plain and simple (or bad players like you claim).
Im calling BS on this stuff. This build may be the best FOR YOU, but not the best over all. Everyone has a build that works perfect for them and thats all this is for you.
As for video recording, just download msi afterburner and start recording. I REALLY cant wait to see you troll 20 people.
This is exactly what the thief forum needs. Build Diversity. Alot of people are so infatuated with overall damage, they forget (or even give a chance to) the viability/plethora of other potential builds as showcased here.
Seriously Trav? Besides your trait allocation, that’s just standard P/D gameplay, and unless your opponents suck hardcore, you are killable, just difficult to kill.
In PvP however, which this thread was talking about, you’ll get stomped and you’re useless to the team.
well it runs side side with venom share too almost so ….it can double. the thing about this build is that it is V ERY durable. if not ina zerg i run 5 0 30 30 5 for the 3 intiativeon steal. only d/p has enough condi removal to keep up. and thats a draw match. u think i go invis and then sneak attack after 1 sec? no you stay in the full 4 secs….4 secs of time = pretyt much 4 initiative regen…..HIS gives u 4 more every 30 secs…..which covers what u lose…plus u get more while revealed for 3 secs …u never run out of initiative here….its only 5 1 5 1 5 1 sure….and 3 as a desperate escape when SS is used and 4 as a gap closer if ever but very rarely. everytime i go invis its about 2k heal. and condi removal. in zerg play i chance out blind powder for caltrops and 5 in power for 10 in trickery for caltrops on roll…all small changes depending on what is going on. i will tyr make a video….. i promise u have my word i have to find one i can use first….all that wierd crap downloads = viruses and i dont have a backup for this computer so i need something reputable. dont get me wrong i do die. but i die about 1 in 10 times where i would with any other build is what im saying. is it dazzling and like wow ill kill somebody in 2 secs? no but it will wear anyone down and intiative is never a problem. its 22k hp…..basically close to wild bills build but less worried about 1 v x’ing and more about surviving/supporting guild.
Seriously Trav? Besides your trait allocation, that’s just standard P/D gameplay, and unless your opponents suck hardcore, you are killable, just difficult to kill.
In PvP however, which this thread was talking about, you’ll get stomped and you’re useless to the team.
i play tier 2 and never pick on upscales……and try to ignore d/p bc its a draw. i guess ill make a video. its an outlast build….u can run it as bunker in spvp too. just add caltrops…ambush….SR….withdraw or HIS and DS. with roll causing caltrops.
i play a more beefy defensed up traitline than this but if u watch this is the bunker utility style way. another u can make it venom share another is 1 v x outlast.
this video is also with 4 sec revealed AND its also the same intiative regen amount as mine….theres no problem with intiative :P
i play a more beefy defensed up traitline than this but if u watch this is the bunker utility style way. another u can make it venom share another is 1 v x outlast.
this video is also with 4 sec revealed AND its also the same intiative regen amount as mine….theres no problem with intiative :P
2 misses of CnD and your done. Posting a video of Wild Bill who is a great player showcasing what the build can do doesn’t correlate to what YOU can do.
Also if you check out Coloxeus’s thread you’ll see Bill get stomped by his D/P build. Does this make one build better than the other? No. Just shows which player was better with their build.
ANYWAY, for those who want to run S/D and Short Bow in sPvP, I’ve been running 0/30/0/25/15 the last few hours, and I have to say it’s working well. I swapped Quick Pockets, something I rarely take advantage of in combat, for the extra init minor trait in Trickery.
If you want to run dual S/D though, Jumpers trait set up is the best way to go.
I Lynna I – Thief / Clownshooz – Engineer
Turbo Seksophonic – Ele / Guitar Wolfe – Mesmer
Isle of Janthir
I Descent of shadows
-50% Fall dmg + Stealth on fall damage.
VI Fleeting shadow
+50% move speed while stealthed.
XI Hard to catch
Shadowstep away 1200 range when any CC is applied to you. +12 sec swift.
0/30/30/0/10 – You talk about knowing a thief and playing one so well; yet you fail to know that a 0/30/30/0/10 build has 30 points into Critical Strikes, 30 points into Shadow Arts and 10 points into Trickery. There is no Acrobatics in a 0/30/30/0/10 build. You don’t even know your traits. Thief, please.
well i have 1 arm….i just got out of surgery from a body building accident…its my 3rd day post op. atleats i have an excuse. and the typo i was referring to was the build typo 0 30 30 0 10….
If you think i made this strictly for 1v1, lol.
I said it at the start of the vid— I go 30 in crit and zerkers to put out enough dps to down an hgh/necro in about 10-15 seconds of training. Obviously if I wanted to 1v1 I would just run soldiers and be (fairly) useless in a teamfight.
PS: Condi thief is a joke and not taken seriously in high end tpvp. Usually only 2 condi’s, EASILY cleansable by agility or shadow return.
Nice video, Jumper! S/D is pretty neat for 1×1s and some 2×1, but it’s initiative hungry and therefore, very punitive for mistakes.
The build is dedicated to 3 things – crit, endurance regen, and init regen. I’ve been running it for a few days, and while it takes some time to get used to, you’re not running out of initiative any time soon (unless you miss 2 CnD’s in a row, your steal is down, AND your weapon swap is on CD). Its easy to recover from spending too much init (As long as you don’t do it the entire fight), a bit harder to recover from eating a big burst you should/could have avoided.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
Great job, great great S/D footage. I’m tempted to jump into S/D, my only problem is that I like to keep the same build in all enviroments and switching equipment in PvE costs a lot of money.
Just one question: With all those evades, why not getting Might on evade? I see you’re using the Vigor on Heal trait, what others are keeping you from using Power of Inertia?
stacks with meat stew that gives might on roll too for wvw….between invis (2might) and roll (2 might) u can keep might around 20stacks very very very easiliy…i get 12 just from rolls alone….6 invis = 24 might after that. wont tell u all my lil fun secrets but theres one especially strong with 25 bloodlust stacks. or coruption
is that better than bandicam? i have a crappy time editing…i made a postwith some videos a while ago “thief build. the new old. videos including” refferring to my version of bleed
Agree.
You can’t C&D when perma blinded.
This comes from a thief with a long d\p experience, never had any sort of problems vs other thieves.
Against a heavy C&D user your best ally is Shadow Shot and against a burst d\d is blinding powder + withdraw.
Never had any particular problem with S\D too, they’re a bit tricky but i can stick to them thanks to the underlooked Shadow Shot.
Got some videos on my Twitch and YT for those who don’t believe
I see you’re using the Vigor on Heal trait, what others are keeping you from using Power of Inertia?
Vigor on heal is an extremely powerful trait.
Coupled with withdraw and at least 15 in Acrobatics, it makes you not worry about dodging at all.
You always have enough vigor to dodge, that’s why i prefer this trait over the others, and why i’ve build my d\p s\d thief aroud this (and some other) trait.
Your set up can definitely stay in a fight longer than mine, therefore stripping more boons and doing more damage, but mine offers more team utility. Do you think it’s necessary for an S/D thief to be all-in init regen and no shortbow to be effective at high level tPvP?
Probably. You won’t last long enough to be applying enough pressure otherwise. The high endurance is necessary to survive. Any good team will just burn you down in stealth if you try running a 30 shadow art spec.
There really is no need for shortbow at all. I can disengage safely with sword2 99% of the time. Plus the energy and init regen from constant weapon swapping is somewhat necessary for sustain imo. The only thing you’re really losing from shortbow is the poison and ranged aoe for downed enemy/allies. This is probably the biggest weakness in high-end play.
Are you serious about dropping Shortbow?!
I used your build for like 10 matches and found it pretty hard to contribute constant pressure to those mid-teamfights. I ended up using the following build and it works for me
and that post u responded to was repsonding to a hate msg about me"being lucky" to do a successful CnD. he made a point..then me counterpoint. not sure anyone woudl like my videos anyway. i dont roam as much as i like to help my guild/zerg/server