Guild Wars 2

Hello,
my goal is to create thief in wvw which can be useful and contribute to his group fight.
i can only wish for some day group will ask for venom share thief in them as you hardly see any thief pov videos while in group fight

also being a back-line burster with d/d or d/p with low health and armor which demand you to disengage a lot (by stealth/shadow step etc) and wait for your next burst which leave you with 5-10 seconds not contributing to the fight, made me think how can i contribute longer and better to my group.
(d/d power thieves have their place and also can do great job taking down the backline)

after seeing Whisperbox – The Condiman video roaming with 1-2 friends i thought why not take it to a larger group fight

i called it Panicond as the main role is to cause panic in your enemies and make them used all their utilities to cleanse and heal skills
ask yourself what would the reaction if you would see stun, torment, vulnerability, poison, weakness, bleeding and immobilize on yourself – you’ll press all your utilities to cleans them and heal yourself fast leaving open to AA simple attack to take you down

so what are our pros in group fight:
1. SB – can do spammable poison, weakness and bleeding AOE (better than necro and engineer which have skills CD) even when the enemy cleans them you can put new ones , also on demand blast finisher to create chaos storm, healing, swfitness, weakness
2. contribute to the group with – might, leech health and dmg, venoms, swiftness
3. the group can contribute to you as you can roll closer to them thus more boons time on you compared to zerk thief who must stay at the back or side

Here is the build i am testing
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAqYVlYmKNHay1E/5EC3DnCqeKvCOo2jbymiJA-jECBoOCi0Cgk0A0HQZSFRjtmpIasKZER1KlYSBAzyK-w
the left 10 points can go anywhere you want

with 3k armor and 20k health (with guard buff in wvw) you can roll with the front-line
and boost them right before their burst (while empower done much earlier before the burst)
the front line has the ability to stun for 2-3 seconds, immobilize for 10 seconds, torment 4 stacks, poison for 1 min, and vulnerability 4% more dmg which always result in 2-5 enemies down

if used with the backline necros engineer you can cause huge massive condition area

if played right use SB first to soften the enemy with poison and bleed aoe, and put the venom share 2 seconds after your group burst will usually result with your enemy wasting their cleanse/boons on necro aoe and vulnerable to your group next burst

this of course need good group and timing but also doable with pugs group play

your SB aoe will do around 2-3k to 5-10 enemies dmg with poison and bleed but it will be overtime (almost like clustebomb zerk thief, but which will disengage after using it as he cant stand near enemies)

and after you done your group role (which d/d zerk thief cannot do) you can go snipe and search for backline and kill them easily with venom burst or at least put them in 10% hp so other ppl will down them for you,
also you can go as spotter and immobilize enemies

the longer the fight the more useful you become (also compare to d/d power thief)

with minor changing as stunbreak and thieves guild, you can go roaming but make sure you catch your enemies by surprise but you’ll have hard time to do 1vX

i will try to do video of it and ask your opinions

TL;DR
conclusion:
p/d group play
harder to kill with high armor and health
great condition aoe burst
good supporting to your group
better aoe poison weakness and bleeding than ANY other professions (necro and engineer)
more group fun play just careful not to get stunned by the frontline enemies

Very good messiah.Useful and dangerous build to play.
Yes post a video it seems people need to see something to believe at.
I know this build is very good your skill is needed to make him survive.
Thieves are not only for roaming they can do just fine in large groups.
I’ll post a video to support that as soon as I ’ll learn how to edit it.(Not gonna take long)

here is me in group play from yesterday (so i didnt look to much for good parts)

hope you enjoy it and try it yourself

nice, but since i’m not into pve equip stuff, could you also tell us equip/runes? ty

you can see it in the build link above

full dire set means armor ,weapons and trinkets
rune of centaur
sigil of corruption and bursting

No offense intended, but I’m pretty sure a necro will put out more condi pressure while still being able to support the group better. I didn’t really see anything that a power based thief couldn’t do better. It’s people like you that will find the next hot build so props for trying new things.

Im gonna try this roaming solo, i’ll let you know how it goes.

This is a cool build, venoms don’t get enough love! I ran something similar with DD and would retrait depending on what was going on. That said, I like how this is a dedicated condition build, no holds barred, venoms ubber alles, kind of thing

The reason I went DD is that I find it’s hard to get folks downed quick enough with PD… so my question is… how is single target DPS? What do you do when you find you need to get the kill ASAP?

Hype.8032:

No offense intended, but I’m pretty sure a necro will put out more condi pressure while still being able to support the group better. I didn’t really see anything that a power based thief couldn’t do better. It’s people like you that will find the next hot build so props for trying new things.

thanks
condition necro can put conditions pressure on certain point on the field.
why group dont like so much condition player? because smart group will cleanse them fast with null fields etc. condition SB thief can spam fields which enable him to counter the cleanse fast
condition necro can do poison field every 20 seconds with chilblains at certain area while thief can spam 2-3 areas which are also larger (if i am not mistaken)
also the same goes for bleeding (necro can do short “burst” but with larger cooldown only to 5 ppl as thief will do 1-3 stacks but with larger area and ppl (more than 5)
i dont say thief can replace necro (necro place in group is more important) but venom thief can add so much if already in a 20 men group has 3 necos than a 4th necro

as i mention a power base thief can do great job taking out fast the backline. what i was trying to fill is the time between bursting the backline and supporting your group
as power thief need to burst→stealth→regen health/initiative for his next burst or run if he feels pressured, while venom thief can do the same putting target down/low on health for other to finish and go back to share his venom with his group and dont need to run if he feels pressured
so while power thief can take lets say 4 backline, venom share thief can do the same and give something else to his group. while fighting i know its important to neutralize your enemy fast but also getting them to run away or disengage the fight can accomplish the same. and with venoms your enemy will run away and wont concentrate on attacking your group

thanks for the feedback

This is one of the few constructive threds I’ve seen for quite some time now in the thieves fora .Well done keep going .

stinkypants.8419:

This is a cool build, venoms don’t get enough love! I ran something similar with DD and would retrait depending on what was going on. That said, I like how this is a dedicated condition build, no holds barred, venoms ubber alles, kind of thing

The reason I went DD is that I find it’s hard to get folks downed quick enough with PD… so my question is… how is single target DPS? What do you do when you find you need to get the kill ASAP?

i didnt try it on roaming although i manage to do some 1v2 or 1v1
if all my skills ready to use its almost guarantee you manage to put your enemy in 10% hp if you take him by surprise by just using all you venoms cnd+steal and sneak attacks + AA
the thing in this build its get your enemy to panic – why?
1. get stun for 2-3 seconds
2. he dont see you for 2-4 seconds
3. suddenly 6 condition with huge stack on you -> 5-8 bleeds, 5-9 torment, poison, vulnerability, weakness, immobilize for 10 seconds
4. if roaming take thieves guild for *3 conditions so potentially 16 stacks of torment, immobilize longer – let your thieves guilds to burst first and save your burst for 3-4 seconds than burst – your enemy will be down in 2-4 seconds (check the clip above with 1v2 against mesmer and ele)
so if your target smart he will use stunbreak and than condition cleanse skills which basically use most if not all his utilities and long cd skills
mesmer, ranger, eles , engineer, thief, will not have fast response to that and could clear some of the conditions but not immediately giving you the time to put more bleeding on them and poison- if they smart they will run to regen. if he stays both of you will have utilities on CD just you have almost if not full hp and he has 10-40% hp.
against warrior and guardian you have to play more smartly and lure them to cleanse early so i like to use cnd+steal+sneak and after he cleanse i use all my venoms

and as you have 1 more strike on venom dont always spam attacks
press AA once let your enemy get stun for 1.5 seconds let your thieves guild do the same for another 1.5 seconds (and maybe your enemy will use stunbreak) than use your seconds attack to do third stun for 1.5 seconds and finish with puting all your venom on your enemy – hard to master but manageable

again it dont meant for roaming (for me at least)

and again d/d thief can kill faster sometimes but p/d has it place for doing almost the same and even better with group play

for roaming consider 20,0,30,0,20 build with boons stealing and vigor gain to soften bunker ele/guardian

after testing it with my guild i search my position in the group
1. frontline group with warriors and guardians
2. range group with necros and eles

i find that to group with the range class is the best

so let say 20 men group would want
4 – 5 warriors
4 – 5 guardians
3 – 4 eles
1 – 2 mesmer
3 – 4 necors
1 venom thief
1 scout thief
4 – 0 more

the thief will roll with 3 necro group and 1 guardian (for boons sharing) or ele

why not roll with the front line – sometimes the enemy put lots of pressure on certain area which the warriors and guardians cant breach while necros and eles from range can
i find that warriors if cannot do the push because of AC/AOE etc my venoms just get wasted but lets say in open field the front and back group the effect will be the same so i should group with range group

i will try to do more examples of small scale fight or 1v1 and with big fight to demonstrate the poison/weakness field i am creating versus necro so you can compare
(and i playing 3 main classes – thief, mesmer and necro with all builds so i know a bit what i am talking about)
again you wont see 4k-10k fast hits like d/d does and also not always with all the bunker builds out there
and its wvw so not all opponents players are great and some are uplvled but this is wvw

thanks again and i hope more guild groups will give it a chance and share their opinions and ideas

new video (shorter one) with some small and big scale fight
demonstrate the effectiveness of this build while alone and while with a group small and big
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn73fTKWZjM&feature=youtu.be

alone – can do massive burst – check the mesmer clip – as d/d i would manage to do the same probably with steal+cnd+bs but as he was PU mesmer with high armor my dmg would be 8k-12k and when the mesmer hp is about 18k so he would have left with 10k-6k health 33%-55%. while with conditions which ticks every seconds i manage to do the same 33% hp before he regen himself and using all his utilities and stealth skills
so if he would attack me it was only with AA. again PANIC reaction

also i think if someone could calculate the sdps (sustain dps) i think the result would be the same over time meaning both d/d and p/d can achieve same sdps (not talking about the massive super zerk d/d gear build)

1v1 with thieve guildif i manage to surprise them so far (silver league) my winning was very high % (and i am an average player)
mesmer 70% (most run PU)
ranger 100% (sry)
engineer 60% (they run mostly to regen)
ele 60% (again run)
thief 50% (SR+shadow step away and not re-engage )
guardian 80% (bit longer fight but easy just AA before you cnd to counter blind and aegis)
warrior 50% (they mostly run after first burst and try to re engage and very durable, if they use bow they fell like flies)

its harder to lose even if you perma stun by hammer/mace (not like d/d) but again if you miss dodge key skills you will lose the fight (like against hgh engineer with perplexity )

if you unable to surprize them than your win % will drop to 50% or lower as you dont have stealth/stunbreaks utilities)

small scale – here you will notice the big difference while boosting your allies. lets say in 3v3 if you target 1 enemy he will go down fast! while you being tanky i often confuse my enemies who try to gank me as i am thief so they think i am squishy while my allies can attack freely while doing massive conditions . most of the fight we win and some 3v4 or 5 we won or ended by not dying

big scale – again you boost your allies and doing bigs poison field to control the areas
my guildies/pugs allies told me they felt the impact with +8might stacks and venoms

i really like your build, its good contribution to the group, but just cant understand why are you comparing all to d/d zerker thief – which isnt the best build for guild/group roaming and is relatively low help to the group (aoe dmg,blasts and fields wise, and i mean a guild/group of like ~20 ppl)

its good to see more ppl trying to play thief within the group not only small scale roaming

bravo for doing something first unusual and second in a professional way with all goods and bads listed. tested venom share a while ago to but i Chose 30 in acrobatics for ini by weaponswitch and only on bow/bow. i was suprised how manageable everything was.

imo the best using field will be in smallscale as u can go via ts with a massiv spike esp with aoe classes besides u and less random dps like in zergs.

what happens if u switch one poison for calldrops in case of soloing or even ambush for one more to share ur venoms with.

VladR.9827:

i really like your build, its good contribution to the group, but just cant understand why are you comparing all to d/d zerker thief – which isnt the best build for guild/group roaming and is relatively low help to the group (aoe dmg,blasts and fields wise, and i mean a guild/group of like ~20 ppl)

its good to see more ppl trying to play thief within the group not only small scale roaming

thanks
exactly as you’ve said! d/d isnt the best build for group play
i compared it because some ppl in wvw play a d/d thief no matter what (also anet fault !!! ) and take SB in group and for some reason its hard to convince ppl that thief can be a group player other that d/d BS roamer/scouter and if they do take 1 its for scouting mainly

i also had the experience when my group raid they want to eliminate the enemy thief scout who followed us. who do you think they called out for?
me, even though they knew i geared for group play and not roaming – it was instinct
(even though he manage to run to the guards in hills i did manage to take him down in 10 seconds )

i also put a p/p thread with ricochet for group play and still ppl claim that d/d is better for group play style

and i really understand why
all the threads you read about in thieves forum are about nerf nerf nerf, and hardly any thread about how to buff thief in group play

ppl cant do the distinction anymore between solo play style and group play style and thinking doing 10k burst dmg to 2-4 backline enemies is all they can come up with (which is great by itself and i also like big numbers on my screen)

and also because Anet made the thief a solo roamer profession mainly so ppl forget how to experience other builds. and while the meta changed to conditions thief left far far behind

example:
if group takes and ele with them do you think he will goes staff or d/d ?
staff is the correct answer as staff is more group play weapon
same to mesmer, necro and other builds/classes

and back to track

i happy you like the build above and hope more ppl and groups will give it a chance

shinta.8906:

bravo for doing something first unusual and second in a professional way with all goods and bads listed. tested venom share a while ago to but i Chose 30 in acrobatics for ini by weaponswitch and only on bow/bow. i was suprised how manageable everything was.

imo the best using field will be in smallscale as u can go via ts with a massiv spike esp with aoe classes besides u and less random dps like in zergs.

what happens if u switch one poison for calldrops in case of soloing or even ambush for one more to share ur venoms with.

thanks for the feedback. as it really important to me and to other who reads it to see we can do other things beside d/d or d/p

i never tried bow/bow as the AA has no conditions to put on and with condition build when your venoms on CD i basically dont do dmg and also venum wont spike as AA spread them to 3 targets so you losing your edge. but i can see how poison fields and clusterbobms (not with venoms mainly rather that other utilities) can do massive aoe areas

i also solo with ambush – but i must say it just unfair 1v1 with 3 allies attacking 1 enemy
you just steal+cnd → put ambush on your enemy and calling thieves guild and popup 2 venoms doing up to 20 torments stacks and 20 seconds chill (ice drake better as you want your enemy to move) – but i dont want anet to nerf venom yet so pls pls shosh!
also i have to admit i had hard time to kill ppl as they just run away when they saw 3 more enemies attacking them

although caltrops is too noticeable and dodgeable its doable with devourer venom.
use steal+cnd → devourer+basilisk →caltrops →sneak attack . if your enemy has already use his stun break he will die with 15-20 bleed stacks
also its nice 1v1 but not in group fight as i want full venom share abilities

I do quite well as a Valkyrie thief in zergs. You can easily pick out and burst down front line targets where there is no need to stomp. You can interrupt/humiliate stability heros with bountiful theft. You can pull careless players with scorpion wire, assuming your teammates are on top of their game as well. You can cnd steal from necromancers and pop a huge aoe fear over and over. You basically never die, and if the zerg breaks up you can drop target after target faster than anybody

Thieves can play the damage dealer role or the condition applier as well it depends on what the party needs. I realy don’t think that we should discuss which role is better or worse for the party because :
First, it depends on the players skill.
Second, the party seldom recognize the contribution of our class.
Third ,some will always assert that there are other classes that can do the same thing better than as.
The point here is that we CAN support a party and thief is a powerful class in the right hands.
I am very pleased for the messiah’s effort to bring this up to our forum but please stay humble all of you. No rivalries between us and of course no QQ.

indeed as i mention several times d/d power thieves can do wonder and its just matter of play style experience etc.
the basic differences are d/d close combat, huge burst, high risk high reward and p/x range combat bit less dmg (p/d or p/p)
but i wont go and say you never die i just wish
as d/d (for me at least) if i target front line i will check first for aoe pressure which usually been used but i will look first for the back line enemies as my front line group handle the enemy heavies head to head
but i do my burst fast and back off quick so i wont get spotted or gank

as p/d with 3k armor and 20k hp i allow myself more freedom. i can burst fast and down ppl in 2-3 seconds and still stay in front switching to bow and do aoe and contributing to my group

and as i agree with you why still group prefer only 1-2 thieves in their ranks for scouts?

we need to show the gw2 community that we can brings more contribution to group play style even in gvg

messiah.1908:

Hype.8032:

No offense intended, but I’m pretty sure a necro will put out more condi pressure while still being able to support the group better. I didn’t really see anything that a power based thief couldn’t do better. It’s people like you that will find the next hot build so props for trying new things.

thanks
condition necro can put conditions pressure on certain point on the field.
why group dont like so much condition player? because smart group will cleanse them fast with null fields etc. condition SB thief can spam fields which enable him to counter the cleanse fast
condition necro can do poison field every 20 seconds with chilblains at certain area while thief can spam 2-3 areas which are also larger (if i am not mistaken)
also the same goes for bleeding (necro can do short “burst” but with larger cooldown only to 5 ppl as thief will do 1-3 stacks but with larger area and ppl (more than 5)
i dont say thief can replace necro (necro place in group is more important) but venom thief can add so much if already in a 20 men group has 3 necos than a 4th necro

as i mention a power base thief can do great job taking out fast the backline. what i was trying to fill is the time between bursting the backline and supporting your group
as power thief need to burst->stealth->regen health/initiative for his next burst or run if he feels pressured, while venom thief can do the same putting target down/low on health for other to finish and go back to share his venom with his group and dont need to run if he feels pressured
so while power thief can take lets say 4 backline, venom share thief can do the same and give something else to his group. while fighting i know its important to neutralize your enemy fast but also getting them to run away or disengage the fight can accomplish the same. and with venoms your enemy will run away and wont concentrate on attacking your group

thanks for the feedback

Good points messiah, I guess I’m just programmed to think of a group kitten people, not 20 like you said. WvW crashes on my PC too much for me to spend much time there anymore so I think about smaller teams now

here is some small scale fight with guildies as i want to show you the dmg done by this build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oH_qdwLGK8&feature=youtu.be

regarding venom share – take in mind that the condition dmg done by your allies depends on theirs condition dmg – so party with condition necro, engi, mesmer, ranger is best
as you can see in 4-7 seconds i can do 17k dmg
the average dps is 2.6k and the fight will take 6-7 seconds

combos rotations:
for main burst with venoms use it when you sure you can down your enemy or take him by surprise
use all venom (sometime save devourer) cnd+steal→sneak attack→shadow strike→AA will result with 1 min poison, 4% vulnerability, weakness, torment 6 stacks for 9 seconds, 8 stacks bleeding for 7.5 seconds, lifesteal 2k, direct dmg 5k and 2-3 seconds stun

for mini burst to lure your enemy uses his cleanse/stun breaks before your major burst or to put him on defense mode use
cnd+steal→sneak attack→shadow strike→dodge in→shadow strike→AA will result with poison 30 seconds , 4 stacks torment, 8 stack of bleeding for 7.5 seconds, lifesteal 2k, direct dmg 5-6k

also a part which i died when i wasnt too careful

good job messiah, thanks for bringing a combination of effectiveness and fun play. Also i guess you are one of few that showed us thief can be a support class, by explaining your every choice with logic which surely comes from gameplay experience.
Awesome choice with rune of the centaur set for perma-swiftness to group.
I tested this build in PvP with carrion amulet, and worked like a charm. I am ok with the concept that dire gives more survability cos the team needs u alive but i think power adds some not neglectable dmg. You may be facing a shout warr with cleansing ire that is easy cleaning of ur conditions, and direct damage from sneak atack (5x) etc is some dmg while pistol aa is meh without stealth or venoms and shortbow runs out of init. Also your opponents become easy targets because of stuns, and immobilise scales in duration. Plus your cond dmg mates are “buffed” by venom effects. Also the opponents are forced to use their stunbreakers and condition cleaners early in the fight which gives a fair advantage prematurely.
Result…. thief venomshare is a serious build and messiah showed it to us in an amazing way

thanks!
in the past i tried carrion gear but for me as i lake with vigor and dodging, no blinds trait and no stunbreaks, little mistake can cost dying fast to signet/shout warrior.
in pvp i play carrion also but in wvw as you may face in group fight 5 warriors which can do massive aoe perma stun i prefer more durability over more dmg. and also as group play i like to just spot my target (immobilize/stun) for other ppl to burst on them
in wvw every warrior i met so far was down to 50% hp with the combos above and then, or they run to regen or the fight were too long for me/them ( +3min 1v1 getting me bored so i run and bow to my opponent )
combo against warrior should be more tricky one
you dont want to waste all venoms burst on the start but rather spread the activation like
use mini combo to lure him to use his shouts to cleanse poison from steal, weakness and bleeding. than use spider venom to apply more poison, than immobilize to secure sneak attack and 8-13 bleed stacks, than devourer/or thieves guild to prevent heal or torment as warrior after immobilize would move a lot so double/triple dmg

in the last video after i pushed the mesmer to use all his utilities early you can see after i attack the commander who was shout warrior i think. as you see 50% hp very fast but cleanse so easily and he disengage from the fight

we cant be OP or anet will nerf that too

Looool, u are assuming Anet isnt reading these?
After all we must presume Anet devs scattered the pieces and you brought them together by showing us the build and awesome videos.
I understood your point on dire vs carrion dilemma. Also i mentioned the shout warr or maybe the mesmer null field to say that they have their alternatives too. Although as i said b4 i tested this build and in terms of cc and condition spamming its super effective.
You spam the venoms by considering the upcoming encounter.
Since we mentioned warriors i will give another point in your favour…
Warriors put a lot of effort in landing their 100b, using immobilises, stuns, quickness etc. With basilisk and devourer venom they can stupidly facepalm the foe cos he is rooted and stunned. We can give many examples like this to evidence the effectiveness of this build.
Another tip for pve…
Basilisk venom ignores defiance..!!!

for the ppl who love the 1vX, i have tried it with thieves guild and later also with ambush

results for 1v2:
as for 1v1 you can down 1 enemy so fast he wont know what hit him so leaving you with 1 more to handle
the first 1 i target was the easy/dangerous target like ranger,thief, mesmer
after that i have about 20-25 seconds of cd on my venoms so i do mini burst on the enemy who left and/or try just cnd
if i miss cnd once or twice i try to reposition myself and get away with SB

i won (but from pure luck):
engi+thief
mesmer+thief
guardian+ele
ranger+warrior
ranger+necro

could not handle 2 engi, 2 warrior, 2 thieves ,2 mesmer etc..

after testing it bit more i changed to 20,0,30,0,20 build with ricochet to do more aoe pressure and it works better as my enemies didnt know at who i focused
i sometime do mini burst on the guardian and switch to ranger to full burst to make the guardian disengage and heal play defensively

1v3 results:
much much harder with no escape utilities and vigor but still doable against pugs/uplvled enemies

1v4 results:
i have stayed longer in stealth via cnd and burst 1 by 1 but they get to res so no point for me

so i guess the old p/d or d/d build works much better

I tried this solo the other night, I changed it to 20/0/30/0/20 and replaced devourer venom with blinding powder/ambush. it worked really well, had a 1verses2 and a 1verses3 in which both fights I was able to win

thank you for this messiah

some Runes ideas for solo fights:

1. superior rune of the mad king
give 10% condition duration and 15% bleeding duration
and also summons raven (hunter call) to attack nearby foes (up to 3) icd 45 sec

does anyone knows if the ravens consider allies to get the venom share? if yes it could be awesome

2. superior rune of balthazar – #6 on the rune give burning for 5.5 seconds to nearby enemies. so theoretically 4-5k dmg aoe every 15 seconds (with heal skill)

Edit: ok i have tested it – 1v1 its over kill, 1v2/3 i was surprises by its effectiveness of putting so much pressure . its tick 4 or 5 times doing over 800 dmg per tick

3. superior rune of altruism – use only 2 to get 3 stack of might for 10 seconds every 15 seconds +105 condition dmg

4. superior rune of perplexity – use only 4. dmg will be between 500-700 per attack/dodge and mainly use as cover condition

5. superior rune of the traveler – just to have 25% more speed but in 1vX i think it less needed to p/d

here is my video test of Panicond V2 with balthazar runes – let it burns Baby!

if you manage to start the fight with withdraw forward the burning will be covered by other conditions so it will get full duration so about 2.8k dmg every 15 seconds.
in wvw it can be 4k dmg

i tested it in spvp which is good area to test builds
i know i didnt play well and miss lots of cnd (just woke up)

also you noticed the new version of inc response trait – icd 10 seconds give vigor and fury 10 seconds

Edit:
dmg breakdown of balthazar runes: burning does 3k-4k every 15 seconds while with runes which give + 200 condition dmg or prolong the duration will yield to poison+bleeding+torment 2k-2.7k dmg buy every 36 seconds.
also burning will be the first condition which will be covered by other conditions
also you can drop one venom and take shadow step or SR etc so 1v3/4 is much easier

Just thought I’d swing by to say I greatly appriciate Messiahs vemon sharing.

I cant comment on the effectiveness of different thief builds in regards to the thief, but as someone who raids with Mr Messiah I know I always feel like a super saiyan when I look down and see I have 4 vemons on me waiting to be used

Thanks Cuf!
i really glad to see how funny and effective when suddenly enemies drop like flies when they just cant move or perma stuned

just imagine what 5 group ppl can do when they sync their attacks

Haha… sorry messiah but the balthazar concept doesn’t work with withdraw. I’m sure you can get better with it but it was painful watching you try to line up the fire blast. Maybe rune of the noble (in wvw) would be better?

:)
it takes practice to time it but doable and dont forget its heal skill so use it if needed.
its great against range class as they tend to stand like the ele and ranger i fought with
also nice against group like in the tower all of them with burning
i think i was struggle more with cnd. the ele at the start was always cover with burning, also the mesmer and ranger. only the warrior wasnt as he melee class

i wanted noble too but you get it from dungeon so as i dont pve i cant have those

interesting build . I just tried a variant wherein the only real difference was runes used. I loaded up the venoms building up lots of might in a zerg just before combat. Hard to tell how much the venoms had to do with iut using share but the bad guys went down fast.

I also hot bound a about face key. Easier to withdraw forward.

yes me too

so far after my guildies got used to it, i think all of them welcome the new venom thief.
the frontline just fall like flee with all the stun/immobilize/conditions

again if you see 3-5 enemies immobilized you did it and did it good. after i use venom i let my party to hit and after them i hit with bow so 3 ppl get 1 more stack of immobilize for 3 seconds and 2 of them get stunned
also after the first clash i just immobilize with body shot the back line and other see an enemy standing and hit him like a truck

also as i have 1500 range with stealing they dont see me coming and dont anticipate me to hit from this range

Messiah a question for you. Perhaps this has been noted as a bug before but I am wondering if, on your build with these venoms, have you ever tried “Improvisation”?

Now in your build you havee a 20 percent recharge rate on venoms which lowers it to 36 seconds.

Just for fun I used Improv here and while the rate of the recharges on venoms is lower overall, when the improv does kick in I tried loading them all up again immediately.

So load all the venoms and build that might, steal recharge and load them again. I was at 18 (condition damage hit over 2800 ) stacks of might BUT the venoms did not gain any stacks. That is poison remained at 5 stacks rather then 10 and so on.

While you have 9 seconds more time you can not use those venoms you do have that 1/5 chance improv kicks in and recharges them all instantly. You can get 5 steals in every 150 seconds so on average one of those kicks in. In 150 seconds at a 36 recharge rate you get 1 MORE attack with all your venoms over the 45 second recharge. (4.1 attacks versus 3.3) if that improv never kicks in.

Have you tried this and is that a known bug (the fact that the number of strieks does not increase as I would think it should) or is that the way it supposed be? It would seem one should be able to stack those venom strikes as well rather then just see them reset to default.

Now imagine having those runes of the Noble , using Improv those venoms and share and having 16 stacks of might from venoms lasting 28 seconds plus any you get from your might stacks hiding.

its not bugged. you cannot double stack so you have to use them first then activate them again

the might will stacks and with noble rune its should be awesome with plus 40% might duration and 3 more from healing skill
i usually have 10-12 stack during fight for 20 seconds (with cnd) so to be able to get 15 stacks with +165 condition dmg is nice also (its add about ~2k dmg in 5 seconds)
but my group and i need swiftness also and i tend to get might also from my group

i think the average recharge is the same as with 20% chance to recharge venom is the same 36 seconds. its really depends on your game style preference. do you feel lucky or do you prefer assurance . if you lucky you can burst down very very fast any opponents. but if you dont he might get away. and with venom share+thieves guild is already overkill
in the mist i try it and got an average 25% chance on recharge so every 4th steal my venom recharge. so i prefered the 20% cd trait then as i dont tend to use all venom at once and depend on the situation. so suddenly see all venom charge can mess me up my rhythm (but this is me)

I am using Runes of Scavenging, because I like to be more “defensive”. I am testing, inspired by Messiah’s build, a 20/0/30/0/20 build, with longer Steal (1500 is nice!).

About the Quick Venom/Improvisation debate, I think that Quick Venom would work better for longer fights, when you need costant venoms application, while Improvvisation would be better for small and faster fights (like 1v1).
Just my 2 cents.

Tenofas.6098:

I am using Runes of Scavenging, because I like to be more “defensive”. I am testing, inspired by Messiah’s build, a 20/0/30/0/20 build, with longer Steal (1500 is nice!).

About the Quick Venom/Improvisation debate, I think that Quick Venom would work better for longer fights, when you need costant venoms application, while Improvvisation would be better for small and faster fights (like 1v1).
Just my 2 cents.

Actually I think it the other way around. In a shorter fight improv might not kick in. The longer the fight the greater the chance to kick in. That “downtime” when one has no venoms if selecting improv is only 9 seconds longer. IN a short fight this 9 second fight make a difference in a longer fight it canceled out by one kick in of improv.

Perhaps taking both and dropping that extra strike at the grandmaster trait more effective overall but 16 stacks of might just from venom for 20 seconds is significant. I am going to have to do more CM dungeoun runs for those runes of the noble!

The other advantage all those might stacks can add is a greater flexibility in choosing ones rune set.

If one loses too much condition damage on the build using a non condition set the build is less effective overall. However if one can replace that lost damage with continual might stacks , other types of runes can be used as well without becoming ineffective in the damage department.

Lets see. Improv so all the venoms recharge and then “runes of the mad king” everytime you use basilisk with that bird attack.

i asked once earlier if the bird from mad king rune consider ally so you can share with it

if yes it will be so funny

another short video of this build and the “panic” reaction in live.
as you notice i am always near a group as i cant/shouldnt roam alone unless i change some utilities (1v1 is ok).
i really like the fight versus the d/d condi thief with DB spamming – check it
if you like more tactics and advices of how to deal in several situation i will try to put a video of them

i even once fought a thief with the same build of mine, he died but we chat and he told me he use panicond build.
enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8S6Vd7ClE&feature=youtu.be

so how the new healing skills would affect this build?
as you know this build designed for group play (although it can be played as roamer and in 1v1 situations)
if i take venom heal i drop out my 15 seconds self heal, which also cure immobilize, chill, cripple which all are soft cc conditions thieves most hate . so i’ll definitely need another skill to help me with that like ROI which has longer cd so again…
so as the DEV said in livestream venom share build will be even more backline supportive ,as we will have to be even more careful in larger group fight from all those CC out there cause if we dead we are not support anyone
and also maybe put the venom share like a ninja nurse which pop in use venom and pop out again to heal the front line in their burst
also reminder – to gain the most healing buff we will have to time the venoms activation so leech will proc in every venom activation
so skelk venom will give about 3500 hp gain (700*5) plus leech 1600 = 5100 hp gain which is very nice healing burst while fighting but equal/less to the healing gain while restacking with water field and blast
with apothecary jewels you will have leeching venom on around 2100 gain so maybe around total 6100 gain, and with full gear you’ll have 2600 gain and total 7100 gain (but hp loose will be to harsh so i wont recommend it)
also full cleric wont do any good as you be useless 36 seconds
again as full supporter as our healing on cd we will have to be extra careful so maybe even drop 2 venom for SR or SS/ROI

now the question is will group will want that over backline ganker or venom share thief as it is for now? i bet on NO
does any other class can heal like that while doing the burst on the enemy? i bet on YES like ele with water fields and guardians with book

so my conclusion is that in 20 men group which maybe have 1-2 thieves it wont do any better, but in larger scale fight (like 50) it can add something to the fight but again as it effect only 5 ppl it won’t be even noticed. also anet try to push thief class to the support class with no health and no armor buff and no utilities.

i like anet put some effort on thinking on venom but i think they miss it

if let say skelk venom would heal you every seconds (like warrior signet or new mesmer signet – OP) for lets say 500-1000 health and when active could heal for 500-1000 multiply by 4 attacks so 2000-4000 hp gain with some cc removal it could be handy and useful ,
or give 240 range aoe leech passive every seconds would be cool and useful as it will grant a thief area which enemies know that if they attack him he will be healed and they get dmg every seconds

p/s
mesmer (PU mostly) would be even more OP than ever with 1k health every seconds – to kill illusions (stop mesmer regen and get conditions) or not to kill (mesmer regen and i get conditions/dmg 2 times), like Phantasmal Duelist and Phantasmal Berserker hitting twice in zerk build – omg
warrior even harder to kill (i must save my dodges and evades),
engineer even more tricky to kill (stop attacking or he almost fully healed or let him run away),
necro bit harder (all those conditions and red target over my head and dps healing skill),
ranger same (more tankier than ever),
guardian bit harder now but nice change

anet want to buff group play but did exactly the opposite as i think we gonna see more roamer tanky builds which would be harder to kill

so after testing the build with the new skelk venom i sry to say it wont fit the full venom build
1v1 very very dangerous to use (2/10)
withdraw gives you 10292 heal in 36 seconds while skel gives you 7960
but the skelk give you the chance to be in lower health as it buff you up more in a 5 seconds so in fast encounter it can be helpful. so if you think you can burst down fast go with it but against necro/engineer/ele be more careful with it

on small group (5 ppl) play it was nice (4/10)
but again only 3500 health gain while not everyone needs it so why use it

with big scale fight (6/10)
again if you alone without group its randomize so only will be helpful to the front line group which are warrior and guardian

i think ppl will have to find other build to use it as with full venom build its useless
maybe d/d set

Mes: Have you tested this build since April patch. Im looking for a good P/D build for sPvP, arenas, and WvW. Do have an suggestions for PVE builds? Thanks in Advance

i change now for 10,0,30,0,30 with confusion also and it hit like truck
my rotations bit slow with no icd on venoms but who cares if you target down in 3-5 seconds
also in zerg fight i change to ricochet to hit few more ppl with conditions

in pvp arena i rarely die and can take 1v2 on 1 point easily so my team has better chance with 3v2

just dont miss cnd

@terravos nice vid
show more 1vX if you can

tip on warrior and ele dont use immobilize as they like to move a lot so torment tick doubled

Hi Messiah
I’ve been playing exclusively venom share thief for months now.
This is awesome support for dungeon, fractal, triple trouble event. 8 stacks of might (triggered by 4 venoms) is always appreciated. 16-20 stacks of Torment is just awesome.
I’m wondering if you manage to synchronize your effort with a necro and his epidemic skill against a bus ?
Let’s say party with 4 guys including a necro.
1- trigger 3 venoms (torment, poison, giver), I’d avoid basilic a this particular time and immo since it reduces the torment impact
2- confusion
3- necro should target the same enemy to notice the “confusion” stack -> trigger epidemic

Have you tried it against a bus?

By the way, I’m always amazed to read about “condi” build for pvp and WvW that doesn’t use at all venoms.
Condis is not only about bleeding, Torment and confusion ARE a nightmares and when you know your party can instant stack 20 torments, you quickly understand where the power is: collaborative play.

Good job, would love to join your party as a second venom thief, that would mean perma torment, poison, weakness, giver if we synchronize our efforts, 2 necro for epidemic and a guard and we’ll be terrific.

Cheers

What is real fun and always a shock to the enemy is defending a camp in WvW or escorting a Yak and using venomshare on the guards.