Guild Wars 2

Can we have a sort of in thief community theory crafting thread for coming up with the best PvE build? There seems to be alot of disagreements scattered across alot of different threads.

Looking at everything from the best situational utilities, traits, weapon sets, and rotations? We ofcourse have to agree on what the PvE meta currently favors. In my opinion it revolves solely around active mitigation, and maximizing dps. That is to say stats like vitality and toughness are worthless in comparison to dodge/vigor and skills that allow to dodge or become invulnerable. This then means that we should pump everything we have into power/precision/crit dmg. The TTK of bosses, bleed stacking limits, and the fact that bosses are pretty much immune to any kind of control such as blinds should back this up even more.

Traits – 25-30-0-15-0 I cant really think of a better spec if we accept the meta I mentioned above. 25-30 is obvious, but putting 15 into acrobatics is less dmg overall than putting into the last tree. The reason for this is feline grace helps out with our active mitigation astronomically, no to mention the swiftness and might on dodge.

Utilities – The best 3 utilities for DPS imo are Power signet (8% increased across the board dmg) Precision signet (9% crit) and ambush (thief npc with only 15 seconds of downtime). leaving us with our 2 best support based utilities SR and our projectile reflection wall. For stuff like farming CoF P1 I usually run the 2 signets and ambush since no one really ever dies or need the wall. Fractals I’ll run 2 signets and SR, or power signet and SR + Wall on encounters like the fire shaman.

Weapon sets – D/D + SB – d/d has the highest dps hands down. Sb has the highest ranged dps output + its our best support weapon.

Rotations – Right now in d/d I run with something like this [ Steal> Ambush (if its slotted) >Heart Seeker(if target is <25% and you cant get behind him) > CnD + Backstab > Auto Attack]

SB – Cluster bomb > Poison field (in between cluster bomb flight time) > auto attack

I’m interested in what the thief community thinks about the current meta, and what they think is the best spec suited for it. This very much is a PvE min-max type of thread so keep that in mind.

and I’m especially interested if any of you have done some math on things like “when is heart seeker ever higher dps than CnD + backstab” or whether or not poison fields are worth using over just plain old cluster bomb spam.

I really think it depends on your playstile, 25-30-0-15-0 was a very solid build for me and I used it very long. But at the moment I really prefer to use 25-30-10-0-5 or 30-30-10-0-0.

Feline Grace is not that good. Of course you are able to dodge more often but you don’t really need it anywhere except lupicus. Since your autoattack refills your endurance + your signet of agility it’s better to put these points into shadow arts. Even if you only spend 10 points in there you have better options then in acrobatics.
Infusion of Shadows increases your dps very much and Master of Deception is great against unfused shaman in vulcanic.

and I’m especially interested if any of you have done some math on things like “when is heart seeker ever higher dps than CnD + backstab” or whether or not poison fields are worth using over just plain old cluster bomb spam.
I did^^ and scootabuser too… heartseeker does more dmg <25% hp and only if the boss dies when you are starting to use it. If you spam heartseeker and the boss is not dead when your initiative is empty it’s would have been better to use CnD^^

Ahh yeah and 10 points in SA > 10 or 15 points in trickery for your dps

I got alot of questions from that but lets just stick to traits for now.

It seems we can at least agree upon a 25(up to 30)-30-x-x-x build as a skeleton.

Just how much of a dps increase are we getting from putting 10 points into shadow arts? For this we would have to know…

- Ini regen (counting out seems to give just under 2 seconds for 1 ini – google search didn’t turn up much).

- We would have to know exactly how long it takes to cast CnD + Backstab (tooltips suggest 3/4 seconds in total)

- How many dagger auto attacks can we get off in 3 seconds (revealed debuff)

- Damage for CnD + Backstab & dagger auto attack chain (over 3/4 seconds)

If I haven’t made any mistakes above (I most likely did) then we could say….

If the time in between each CnD + Backstab is 4 seconds (I think it fair rounding up from 3 3/4 ((revealed debuff+cast times))) then over the course of 12 seconds we would have 6 more ini more than we would have without it (enough for an extra CnD+Backstab) The 12 second mark is also the point from starting our rotation that we have started relying solely on ini regen for having enough ini to CnD+Backstab (6 ini cost every 4 seconds mean we only gain 2 ini from were we were at the last CnD+Backstab).

So after 12 seconds it takes 6 seconds after every CnD+Backstab to cast it again, whereas with the trait in shadow arts that number is reduced to 4 seconds after CnD (only 4 seconds of auto attacking between CnD+Backstab instead of 6).

If we use 60 seconds as our “S” in DPS which I think is a fair number for most boss fight lengths. Then…

With 10 in shadow arts we… CnD+Backstab 15 times [(60-12)/4)3] were 60 is total time 12 seconds is the time were we start relying on regen and 4 is the time inbetween CnDBackstabs and 3 is the amount of CnD + Backstabs we see regardless of traits during the 1st 12 seconds.

w/o it we…. CnD + Backstab 11 times. [(60-12)/6)+3]

If we assume it takes 3/4 seconds to cast CnD+Backstab and 1/4 second to cast a dagger auto attack then…

w/ we have 11.25 seconds devoted to CnD+Backstab which leaves 48.75 seconds of dagger auto attacks or 195 dagger auto attacks / 65 complete chains

w/o we have 8.25 seconds devoted to CnD+Backstab which leaves 51.75 seconds of dagger auto attacks or 207 dagger auto attack / 69 complete chains

so…

w/ – [(CnD+Backstab dmg)x15] + [(Dagger auto attack chain dmg)x65] = Total Dps over a minute traited in shadow arts

w/o – [(CnD+Backstab dmg)x11] + [(Dagger auto attack chian dmg)x69] = Total Dps over minute w/o the trait

Take the answer to the traited equation and multiply that by 100 then divide by the non traited answer to recieve the % increased dmg over 1 minute.

Well christ that was alot more than I thought I was going to do… so much for the other questions lol. Someone who knows how to calculate damage pls fill in the numbers (I have no idea how damage coefficients work and how they play with our % increased dmg traits) / correct me on the actual cooldowns of those particular attacks (I have a feeling each part of the dagger auto attack chain isn’t really 1/4 second cast as the tool tip says same for CnD+Backstab) or wants to correct anything else pls do.

Once we figure this out then we can move on to the other trait options do something similar for them then compare…

like how might stacking from dodge with 15 points in acrobatics stands up against the shadow arts. Or how much dps increase is thrill of the crime both solo and from a group perspective or what do we actually get out of putting those extra 5 points in the 1st tree? etc…

We would have to know exactly how long it takes to cast CnD + Backstab (tooltips suggest 3/4 seconds in total)

• Autoattack = 2.05s with .5s aftercast
  CnD = .9s (but you hit right after ~ 0.4s)
  Backstab = 1s

How many dagger auto attacks can we get off in 3 seconds (revealed debuff)

• -> in 3s revealed you can do 1 autoattack chain and 1/2 double strike (double strike duration = 0.64s)

Damage for CnD + Backstab & dagger auto attack chain (over 3/4 seconds)

• 18.567 dmg unbuffed (CnD + Backstab + AA) -> without a group stacking you might with 30-30-10-0-0 and both signets IF everything crits
  and 6848 with just 1 autoattack chain if everything crits

So after 12 seconds it takes 6 seconds after every CnD+Backstab to cast it again, whereas with the trait in shadow arts that number is reduced to 4 seconds after CnD (only 4 seconds of auto attacking between CnD+Backstab instead of 6).

• pls don’t forget the + 10% dmg while initiative > 6 you do less dmg without infusion of shadows because this trait doesn’t trigger

I can’t look closer to the rest b/c I have no time… sry for that

Thanks for the info i can use that to readjust the variables.

>pls don’t forget the + 10% dmg while initiative > 6 you do less dmg without infusion of shadows because this trait doesn’t trigger

Cant believe I never thought of this Ill make sure to include that. Btw were are you getting all this info is there some kind of calculator for GW2 out there?

Has anyone tried x/30/x/x/25 ?
The damage is very nice, especially when keeping initiative over 6.

The best thing about it, imo, is that it works with every weapon set and combo and you don’t need to keep switching a trait out in deadly arts whenever you go from dagger to sword mainhand to keep max damage.

Also, the regen is pretty crazy with it, especially when you have the trait which has a chance of giving 1 regen on any weapon’s autoattacks and steal giving initiative for even more hs spam !

I’ve tried the 25/30/0/15/0 build, but when you run out of initiative, you’re pretty much stuck with autoattack.
With x/30/x/x/25, you can free up a utility slot by not having infiltraitor’s signet or roll for initaitive although they would enhance this build even further still.

For absolute farm mode, you can have haste, assassin’s signet, signet of agility and never have to worry about initiative.

Thoughts ?

endless testing^^
I used fraps and watched my tests frame per frame so I got those animation durations. Scootabuser done the same thing and I compared his numbers with mine… they were very close (for examble my aftercast for autoattack was 1-2 frames longer -> 0.04sec difference)

For dmg calculation I created a spreadsheet and testet endless times if my calculated numbers are right.. Finally they were all very close. So I was able to calculate my average dps with/without might
It took about 4h to write down all the attacks and dmg of an arah p3 run but it was worth (for me)

sry for my bad english – I’m sitting in a lecture right now so I can’t concentrate very well^^"

psykles.1573:

Has anyone tried x/30/x/x/25 ?
The damage is very nice, especially when keeping initiative over 6.

The best thing about it, imo, is that it works with every weapon set and combo and you don’t need to keep switching a trait out in deadly arts whenever you go from dagger to sword mainhand to keep max damage.

Also, the regen is pretty crazy with it, especially when you have the trait which has a chance of giving 1 regen on any weapon’s autoattacks and steal giving initiative for even more hs spam !

I’ve tried the 25/30/0/15/0 build, but when you run out of initiative, you’re pretty much stuck with autoattack.
With x/30/x/x/25, you can free up a utility slot by not having infiltraitor’s signet or roll for initaitive although they would enhance this build even further still.

For absolute farm mode, you can have haste, assassin’s signet, signet of agility and never have to worry about initiative.

Thoughts ?

It seems interesting but if we get 1 dagger auto attack chain + 1 part of double strike in 3 seconds then that means on average you looking at +1 initiative every 9 seconds IF all you are doing is auto attacking which means in most cases this is worse than just having an infiltrators signet. not to mention the loss in dps due to not having points in the 1st 2 trees.

you would have to weigh the ini gain vs damage lost from stats and traits in the 1st tree to get a clearer answer. You should also weigh the benefits of the ini gains from the signet and roll for initiative vs the damage bonuses from the signets like agi/power. Feel free to set the math up lol I’m still working on the shadow arts one and with the new event coming up idk if im going to have time to spend doing all the math just yet :S.

Anubarak.3012:

endless testing^^
I used fraps and watched my tests frame per frame so I got those animation durations. Scootabuser done the same thing and I compared his numbers with mine… they were very close (for examble my aftercast for autoattack was 1-2 frames longer -> 0.04sec difference)

For dmg calculation I created a spreadsheet and testet endless times if my calculated numbers are right.. Finally they were all very close. So I was able to calculate my average dps with/without might
It took about 4h to write down all the attacks and dmg of an arah p3 run but it was worth (for me)

sry for my bad english – I’m sitting in a lecture right now so I can’t concentrate very well^^"

Thats awesome, imagine how much easier everyone’s lives would be if anet would be open to letting someone create a damage meter lol.

So again this…

Autoattack = 2.05s with .5s aftercast
CnD = .9s (but you hit right after ~ 0.4s)
Backstab = 1s

Does this mean the revealed debuff actaully starts when CnD hits at 0.4s?

Also whats just the base damage for CnD Backstab and an auto attack chain separately? Since might and crit etc… effect them proportionally (I think) the answer w/ or w/o will be the same (% wise)

Does this mean the revealed debuff actaully starts when CnD hits at 0.4s?

• okay I’ll try to explain.. You go to a mob, and you are stealthed… you land a backstab and right after your debuff revealed appears.
  1) Your autoattack starts -> 0.6sec for double strike + 0.55 sec for wild strike + 0.9sec for lotus strike -> you surpassed 2.05 seconds -> your revealed debuff remain 0.95 seconds
  2) You start your Cloak and Dagger while you have still your revealed debuff
  3) There is a little time between Lotus Strike and Cloak and Dagger where your thief will just stand and do nothing (called aftercast)
  4) After that your thief will start to swing his/her dagger for Cloak and Dagger while you are still revealed
  5) Your Dagger will swing about 0.4 seconds until revealed ends, right after that you dagger will hit the enemy and you stealth yourself
  6) You start your backstab (we are at ~3.4 seconds now)
  7) Your thief will swing his dagger for backstab and needs about 1s until it finally hits
  8) You land backstab, bypassed ~4.5 seconds and have revealed debuff on you
  9) chain is over

Also whats just the base damage for CnD Backstab and an auto attack chain separately?
You can calculate by your own if you want^^
dmg calculation

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Skill dmg coefficients
Autoattack chain = 2.26
CnD = 1.5
Backstab = 2.4 (from behind)

dmg done
952 (weapon dmg) * 2499 (power with assassin’s signet and full ascended and 30 DA) * skill coefficient from above / 2600 (average targets armor)
= 2199 with backstab

now we have the base dmg of backstab without any bonuses, but we want the max dmg….
so we add all our + X% dmg traits
Dagger Training 5% more dmg
First Strike 10% more dmg
10% more dmg against foe with condition
Executioner 10% more dmg in total

that means
2199 * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 3073 dmg
usually you want to add the vulnerability from sundering strikes and Cnd but for this test we just say you don’t use sundering strike, so your dmg increases by 3% because of CnD
= 3165
with sigil of force you add another 5% dmg and so on….
and if our attack crits you have have to look at you crit dmg that should be 1.12 -> 150% + 112% dmg -> 3165 * 2.62 = 8292 dmg

edit: download https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3A3Op-Hj3dOUkJRU0xvcng5ZWc/edit and look at page 34

Zepidel.5349:

psykles.1573:

Has anyone tried x/30/x/x/25 ?
The damage is very nice, especially when keeping initiative over 6.

The best thing about it, imo, is that it works with every weapon set and combo and you don’t need to keep switching a trait out in deadly arts whenever you go from dagger to sword mainhand to keep max damage.

Also, the regen is pretty crazy with it, especially when you have the trait which has a chance of giving 1 regen on any weapon’s autoattacks and steal giving initiative for even more hs spam !

I’ve tried the 25/30/0/15/0 build, but when you run out of initiative, you’re pretty much stuck with autoattack.
With x/30/x/x/25, you can free up a utility slot by not having infiltraitor’s signet or roll for initaitive although they would enhance this build even further still.

For absolute farm mode, you can have haste, assassin’s signet, signet of agility and never have to worry about initiative.

Thoughts ?

It seems interesting but if we get 1 dagger auto attack chain + 1 part of double strike in 3 seconds then that means on average you looking at +1 initiative every 9 seconds IF all you are doing is auto attacking which means in most cases this is worse than just having an infiltrators signet. not to mention the loss in dps due to not having points in the 1st 2 trees.

you would have to weigh the ini gain vs damage lost from stats and traits in the 1st tree to get a clearer answer. You should also weigh the benefits of the ini gains from the signet and roll for initiative vs the damage bonuses from the signets like agi/power. Feel free to set the math up lol I’m still working on the shadow arts one and with the new event coming up idk if im going to have time to spend doing all the math just yet :S.

The math for it would be fairly difficult.
There’s a very large number of variables involved and time is a sour factor.

The initiative gain also comes from Opportunist from the critical strikes tree rather than just from Kleptomaniac and Initial Strike from the trickery tree.

Since Lead Attacks from trickery is a percentage based increase, it plays very nicely with the crit damage multiplier making for insanely high crits especially when vulnerability and might are factored in. The damage increase feels exponential !

While dagger autos can sometimes feel everso slightly smaller, everything else gets a huge increase and only gets higher with more boons and conditions thrown into the mix.
It feels mostly the same as 25/30/x/x/x except there seems to be no shortage of initiative letting you throw out more concentrated and focused bursts and keep up higher autoattack dps across all weapon sets without so much trait switching except for when/if you’ll be using p/p for the majority of a fight.

Give it a try some time !
The last 15 points can be thrown anywhere, even in deadly arts for the extra power though shadow arts could make very good use of it with the init gain on stealth making for even more backstabs and higher sustained autoattack dps on s/d.

I want a dps meter to see how it all pans out, but at the same time, people reviving each other because there is no dps meter is also a good thing XD

Anubarak.3012:

Does this mean the revealed debuff actaully starts when CnD hits at 0.4s?

• okay I’ll try to explain.. You go to a mob, and you are stealthed… you land a backstab and right after your debuff revealed appears.
  1) Your autoattack starts -> 0.6sec for double strike + 0.55 sec for wild strike + 0.9sec for lotus strike -> you surpassed 2.05 seconds -> your revealed debuff remain 0.95 seconds
  2) You start your Cloak and Dagger while you have still your revealed debuff
  3) There is a little time between Lotus Strike and Cloak and Dagger where your thief will just stand and do nothing (called aftercast)
  4) After that your thief will start to swing his/her dagger for Cloak and Dagger while you are still revealed
  5) Your Dagger will swing about 0.4 seconds until revealed ends, right after that you dagger will hit the enemy and you stealth yourself
  6) You start your backstab (we are at ~3.4 seconds now)
  7) Your thief will swing his dagger for backstab and needs about 1s until it finally hits
  8) You land backstab, bypassed ~4.5 seconds and have revealed debuff on you
  9) chain is over

Also whats just the base damage for CnD Backstab and an auto attack chain separately?
You can calculate by your own if you want^^
dmg calculation

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Skill dmg coefficients
Autoattack chain = 2.26
CnD = 1.5
Backstab = 2.4 (from behind)

dmg done
952 (weapon dmg) * 2499 (power with assassin’s signet and full ascended and 30 DA) * skill coefficient from above / 2600 (average targets armor)
= 2199 with backstab

now we have the base dmg of backstab without any bonuses, but we want the max dmg….
so we add all our + X% dmg traits
Dagger Training 5% more dmg
First Strike 10% more dmg
10% more dmg against foe with condition
Executioner 10% more dmg in total

that means
2199 * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 3073 dmg
usually you want to add the vulnerability from sundering strikes and Cnd but for this test we just say you don’t use sundering strike, so your dmg increases by 3% because of CnD
= 3165
with sigil of force you add another 5% dmg and so on….
and if our attack crits you have have to look at you crit dmg that should be 1.12 -> 150% + 112% dmg -> 3165 * 2.62 = 8292 dmg

edit: download https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3A3Op-Hj3dOUkJRU0xvcng5ZWc/edit and look at page 34

Alright that definitely EVERYthing I’ll need to figure this out. You really have helped a ton. I’ll try to get on it asap.

Lets make a timeline for the perfect rotation…

>0 – 0.9 seconds – CnD (0.9 seconds)
>0.9 – 1.9 seconds – Backstab (1 second) (revealed debuff began at 0.9 seconds)
>1.9 – 2.5 seconds – double strike (0.6 seconds)
>2.5 – 3.05 seconds – wild strike (0.55 seconds)
>3.05 – 3.95 seconds – lotus strike (0.9 seconds) (revealed ended at 3.9s)
>3.95 – 4.45 seconds – lotus strike after cast (0.5 seconds)
>4.45 – 5.35 seconds – CnD

see I think I’m doing it wrong in your above post you make it seem like CnD can be casted before the revealed debuff ends but according to my timeline revealed ends well before you can cast CnD.

You get revealed when Backstab ends and not when it begins^^
btw i think it’s easier if you just download fraps and hit some random mobs while recording it… even the vlc player can play videos frame per frame

>0 – 0.9 seconds – CnD (0.9 seconds) — 12 ini to 6 ini
>0.9 – 1.9 seconds – Backstab (1 second) (revealed starts 1.9 seconds)
>1.9 – 2.5 seconds – double strike (0.6 seconds)
>2.5 – 3.05 seconds – wild strike (0.55 seconds)
>3.05 – 3.95 seconds – lotus strike (0.9 seconds)
>3.95 – 4.45 seconds – lotus strike after cast (0.5 seconds)
>4.45 – 5.35 seconds – CnD (0.9s)(revealed ends at 4.9s)(hits at 4.85???) – 9ini to 3ini
>5.35 – 6.35 seconds – backstab (1s) (revealed starts at 6.35)
>6.35 – 6.95 seconds – double strike (0.6s)
>6.95 – 7.5 seconds – wild strike (0.55s)
>7.5 – 8.4 seconds – lotus strike (0.9s)
>8.4 – 8.9 seconds – lotus strike after cast (0.5s) – 5ini cant CnD
>8.9 – 9.5 seconds – double strike (0.55s) (revealed ends at 9.35s)
>9.5 – 10.4 seconds – CnD (0.9s) 6ini to 0ini
>10.4 – 11.4 seconds – backstab (1s) (revealed starts at 11.4)
>11.4 – 12 seconds – double strike (6s)
>12 – 12.55 seconds – wild strike (0.55s)
>12.55 – 13.45 seconds – lotus strike (0.9s)
>13.45 – 13.95 seconds – lotus strike after cast (0.5s) – 4 ini cant CnD
>13.95 – 14.55 seconds – double strike (0.6s)
>14.55 – 15.1 seconds – wild strike (0.55s)
>15.1 – 16 seconds – lotus strike (0.9s)
>16 – 16.5 seconds – lotus strike after cast (0.5s)
>16.5 – 17.4 seconds – CnD (0.9) (revealed starts at 17.4s) – 7ini to 1
>17.4 – 18.4 seconds – backstab (1s)

at this point the cycle from 11.4 seconds to 18.4 seconds repeats itself indefinitely. However I’m not 100% on 15.1 seconds to 17.4 seconds. It would seem you would have to give up a lotus strike for a less than 1 second sooner CnD + Backstab if you wanted to pop it as soon as you had 6 ini. Remember that this timeline is for the non shadow arts trait spec were we don’t care about the initial strikes trait. It also seems that CnD would cast 0.05 seconds too soon for the revealed debuff? Scary stuff indeed but I tested the rotation plenty on dummies and didn’t seem to have many problems with re enacting this timeline.

no one had anything to say? I’m kinda stumped at this point.

one more bump :\ , Id like at least some kind of response to the rotation before I spend the time doing the math, and figuring out how we can compare specs.

bump!

You still seem to be under the impression that the ‘current meta’ dictates the best build for PvE. In fact the content you are facing dictates the best set-up for that content. This is true for weapon sets, heals, and utilities. Different trait lines provide different benefits for different set ups and players can pick the benefits they want to see most often. In this sense, the thief is moderately well balanced across the class despite the dominance of beserker builds.

Stooperdale.3560:

You still seem to be under the impression that the ‘current meta’ dictates the best build for PvE. In fact the content you are facing dictates the best set-up for that content. This is true for weapon sets, heals, and utilities. Different trait lines provide different benefits for different set ups and players can pick the benefits they want to see most often. In this sense, the thief is moderately well balanced across the class despite the dominance of beserker builds.

The meta, for competetive players at least is always “How fast/efficient can we clear x content”, and since there is no need for support or tanks in this game… zerker will always be king.

I guess im necroing this thread because a lot of work went into from multiple people, maybe someone else can pick up on it?