Guild Wars 2

Before I go into the buffs, I want to talk about the nerfs thieves should have. I think the thief gameplay is getting stale, and I want to change things up. Just two only, bear with me.

Nerfs

Black powder

• I think the blind should trigger every 2 seconds. For an AOE blind, this ability is really powerful, and is pretty much the reason why D/P is considered to be a survival build.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation (nerf/buff)

• Should be nerfed to 175 (originally 293) + 0.25 (originally 0.1) * healing power (Typically 250 HP per tick heal, in case you were wondering, I think the warrior’s healing signet is actually 200 hp per tick, but since thieves HP, is significantly lower…). I haven’t done an exact calculation here, but I think thieves can use Apothecary items (toughness, healing, condition). P/D users using carrion items will get a nerf on this, while there will be benefits to using healing runes/sigils/armor. S/D users may benefit from a cleric’s build with the other buffs I propose.

Either way, I do think that the idea where a thief heals up to 75% hp+ (or 12000-14000 hp) from healing in stealth + healing ability is indeed too powerful, without even putting heal items on yourself. That’s kind of… lame from a RPG perspective. (Although I have huge, questionable remarks on Elementalist users as well).

Buffs

All poison skills to be single charge through TRAITING (Residual Venom trait – Grandmaster).

• Basically, each time you swing your weapon, you use your bow to hit an AOE of 5 enemies, it uses ONLY ONE CHARGE. On the other hand, if this is changed, the duration needs to be tweaked. Venom share users WILL NOT be able to use it as charges (but by hits). (PP users will only apply one poison’s duration from one unload.)

It gives a relatively big change to PvP and WvW. Thieves will suddenly find themselves to be able to hamper WvW zerks better and force a new perspective on the game.

Heartseeker inflicts 1 stack of vunerability for 10 seconds when target is below 25% hp.

• This is meant to be a PvE boost for fighting bosses.

Dancing daggers cost 3 initiative

• Sure, you nerf the damage, I don’t mind it, but it’s good if you can lower the init cost.

Pistol whip is now a combo finisher – Whirl

• Again, nerfing the damage without putting back some buffs to it, really hurts the PvE factor. Dungeon thieves may now use other players’ fields to better effects.

Scorpion wire buffed to 20 seconds cooldown

• Who really uses scorpion wire…? 30 Seconds cooldown, really?

Needle Trap damage increased to 250, inflicts 3 stacks of bleeding. (should do same damage tick as caltrops.)
Tripwire Trap now adds inflicts 3 stacks of confusion. (10 seconds)

• I have never seen thieves use traps other than ambush trap in PvP. By using traps as a means of holding points in PvP? Hmmm..

Headshot damage increased to 200, inflicts 1 stack of confusion for 5 seconds.

• I think PP thieves need a buff somewhere….

Body shot – Cast time to 1/4 seconds from 1/2 sec

• Basically a slight increase to DPS by shooting faster.

Unwind – Cast time 1 1/2 sec from 1 3/4 sec, 10% chance to inflict bleeding

• Increase in DPS by shooting faster, as well as bleeding damage.

Cluster bomb projectile speed increased by 25%.

• Increase in DPS by speed increase.

Assassin signet removes 1 buff each time for the next 5 attacks.

• Boon stripping should be interesting. Since this is supposed to be an Assassin’s Signet, stripping the boons off to get a damage spike will be useful.

Quick pockets trait allow weapon swap to be quicker by 1 second.

• Minor buff to weapon swapping for initiative gain.

Hard to catch cooldown 45 seconds from 60 seconds.

• This feels more like a PvE dungeon kind of trait rather than a PvP or WvW build…

Sleight of hand dazes 2.5 seconds.

• I find it ridiculous that Mug heals 2000 hp and damage 2000 hp, while your Grandmaster trait does 1 second of daze that doesn’t really do anything much.

Ricochet increased to 33%.

• Overall boost to making PP a very annoying class. P/D gains a buff as well.

Instinctual response 40 seconds cooldown.

• More likely to be a PvE thing. But even if it’s not, I don’t see why it needs a 60 seconds cooldown, when your Cloaked in Shadow trait is on available on demand.

Slash (2nd normal attack for 1st sword skill) does 2 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds.

• Some minor boost for sword DPS thief.

Final words

Rather than switching up the base damage of the weapon sets, I think the overall traits should be looked at first. Also, I don’t want this to be in the thieves discussion. This thread should primarily be about the buffs you want to have.

maybe on the d/p….however that would have to change the necro blind fields and make them near useless too. the necro fields are so much larger(full aoe) would be a crippling blow.

the healing is fine in shadow rejuv. u compare it to a signet that need 0 trait points. 350-400 per tick is good for a 30 point GRANDMASTER trait. :P

mug doesnt do 2000 dmg unless u have a perfect hit and the thief is running 0 defensive traits and 0 defensive skills and 0 defensive utilities. and if he hits for 2k for some ungodly reason then the heal is low. 10 30 20 10 0 is like a 700ish hit :P mug is weak sauce now. that aside prolly more like 2 secs on daze….. IMO daze is preferable than stun so idk….2 secs + extra time really adds up.

hard to catch is bugged as it causes a KD to the thief…..not much to complain about here unless u wanna fix it so we dont get knocked down :0 that would be great.

i like your change to richochet….makes p/p and unload almost useable….perhaps with pierce in the 20 point category?

60 secs on instinctual is nuts! should be 20 secs tops. i totally agree. its just regen…especially for 20 traits…..

if u think of assassins sig stripping 5 boons or 4 in one move (FS to LS) thats a bunker killer instant :P maybe a lil too strong. i think assassins signet should cause a 2 sec KD and stack of 5 bleeds for 5 secs……60 sec recharge. now that would be great. OR i think steal should have a 1.5 ssec KD….would make the 45 sec CD survivable

i believe things like needle trap/tripwire etc should be 400 radius circle traps that triggers only when sombody is close to the center (so to get more people) and should pulse once per second for 3 seconds.

dancing dagger……vital shot…….body shot………trick shot………pistol whip ……these skills need love like an abandoned child.

Can we see a “shadow trap teleports instead of shadow-steps” buff as well? It’s kind of pointless to have the 10,000 range otherwise.

10k range? mine dissapears after like 5 seconds :P

The Assassin’s signet should be a killer move, you don’t want it to be an attrition thing. If you’re fighting a non-boon user, that signet isn’t that powerful. On the other hand, boon users are far too strong with 100% uptime, therefore Assassin signet is meant to stop them cold. Since mug has been nerfed, we need another way to bring boon users down.

As for the SR trait, 250 hp heal is to nerf the DP/DD crit build slightly. It gives opponents a little more time to hit their heal button (also makes it harder for thieves to 1 v 2-3 people and still be able to kill someone else), if the thief decides to hide under stealth. On the other hand, if you’re running the apothecary items , one can probably heal 500-600 HP per tick along with reasonable condition damage and good toughness. This suits the condition build and make it a new way thieves can play.

Well, at least I’m hoping to see a new build thieves can play with. I mean, it’s getting stale… it really is.

Your ideas sounds good but I would add follow things to you list:

Increase Revelation Debuff to 5 Sec; Increase Base sthealth time to 5 Sec, give the thief the baseHP from the engi/ranger/mesmer;
increase base dmg on single target weapon by 75%-100% ; reduce backstab to +50% instead +100%
Reduce Steal-CD on 30 sec

Not sure about this: Reduce Ini-Regeneration Time to 1,35 -1,5 sec

I would like to see the rework of Mug damage to scale on how many boons are on the target.

I’d love to see Signet Of Malice changed from how it is right now to Life Stealing, it would offer so many interesting builds.

Black Teagan.9215:

Your ideas sounds good but I would add follow things to you list:

Increase Revelation Debuff to 5 Sec; Increase Base sthealth time to 5 Sec, give the thief the baseHP from the engi/ranger/mesmer;
increase base dmg on single target weapon by 75%-100% ; reduce backstab to +50% instead +100%
Reduce Steal-CD on 30 sec

Not sure about this: Reduce Ini-Regeneration Time to 1,35 -1,5 sec

Revelation Debuff 5 sec and reduce Backstab dmg 50% ?? You must kidding.

And int regen loool

Evilek.5690:

Black Teagan.9215:

Your ideas sounds good but I would add follow things to you list:

Increase Revelation Debuff to 5 Sec; Increase Base sthealth time to 5 Sec, give the thief the baseHP from the engi/ranger/mesmer;
increase base dmg on single target weapon by 75%-100% ; reduce backstab to +50% instead +100%
Reduce Steal-CD on 30 sec

Not sure about this: Reduce Ini-Regeneration Time to 1,35 -1,5 sec

Revelation Debuff 5 sec and reduce Backstab dmg 50% ?? You must kidding.

And int regen loool

The backstab must be reduce, if they increase of the base damage(which is stronger than +100% BS-Dmg).

To Increase the duration of the Revelation Debuff is necessary, to let it be more a tactic element than a spam mechanik and the increase of the stealth were perfect to give the thief more options to infiltrate others or better chances to flee, also would it make the shadowarts stronger

I see this changes as necessary.

Every thief reg 1 Ini all 1,66 sec, which mean that a simple Heartseeker has a CD from 4,96 sec
(rly long for a single target skill which effectivity is addicted from your critchance and the hp of your enemy).
And dont forget that both weaponsets share the same ini-pool.

Black Teagan.9215:

Evilek.5690:

Black Teagan.9215:

Your ideas sounds good but I would add follow things to you list:

Increase Revelation Debuff to 5 Sec; Increase Base sthealth time to 5 Sec, give the thief the baseHP from the engi/ranger/mesmer;
increase base dmg on single target weapon by 75%-100% ; reduce backstab to +50% instead +100%
Reduce Steal-CD on 30 sec

Not sure about this: Reduce Ini-Regeneration Time to 1,35 -1,5 sec

Revelation Debuff 5 sec and reduce Backstab dmg 50% ?? You must kidding.

And int regen loool

The backstab must be reduce, if they increase of the base damage(which is stronger than +100% BS-Dmg).

To Increase the duration of the Revelation Debuff is necessary, to let it be more a tactic element than a spam mechanik and the increase of the stealth were perfect to give the thief more options to infiltrate others or better chances to flee, also would it make the shadowarts stronger

I see this changes as necessary.

Every thief reg 1 Ini all 1,66 sec, which mean that a simple Heartseeker has a CD from 4,96 sec
(rly long for a single target skill which effectivity is addicted from your critchance and the hp of your enemy).
And dont forget that both weaponsets share the same ini-pool.

you already got warriors as an efficient autoattack class
you want thieves damage to come from skill spam and autoattack :
-increase single target damage
-nerf skill rotation fluidity -5 sec reveal
-50% backstab damage

@ OP
i disagree with everything you ask for :
1.first of all : blinding powder is an utility , and black powder is an weapon skill
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Powder
i see no reason why would you nerf blinding powder.
2. shadow rejuveration – heal for arround 320 -330 with 300 healing power, if an thief heal 75% hp from this trait and he got 150000 hp , mean that he heal:
15.000 * 0.75 / 320 = 35 seconds in stealth, without take damage meantime, and without reset combat
3. i don’t see any reason for HS boost, specialy in pve
4.. pistol whip – whirl finisher. – no , first of all what would be the whirl area? 130 ?
5. scorpion wire -trick – 20 sec cooldown (trained would be 16)

Rayya.2591:

@ OP
i disagree with everything you ask for :
1.first of all : blinding powder is an utility , and black powder is an weapon skill
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Powder
i see no reason why would you nerf blinding powder.
2. shadow rejuveration – heal for arround 320 -330 with 300 healing power, if an thief heal 75% hp from this trait and he got 150000 hp , mean that he heal:
15.000 * 0.75 / 320 = 35 seconds in stealth, without take damage meantime, and without reset combat
3. i don’t see any reason for HS boost, specialy in pve
4.. pistol whip – whirl finisher. – no , first of all what would be the whirl area? 130 ?
5. scorpion wire -trick – 20 sec cooldown (trained would be 16)

1) You’re right, I meant black powder.
2) Hi there, you have difficulty in reading the language. I wrote Shadow’s Rejuvenation + Healing ability (hide in shadows in example.) that heals a great amount of HP. Other players are complaining that thieves can reset battles in WvW, and I think that’s true.
3) Are you serious? We were once upon a time doing 66-33%, 33-0% full heartseeker damage! That’s a serious loss of PvE damage. Just think of how a warrior can 100B everything with a buttload of PvE damage with AOE damage! The complaint came from PvP players, no one was saying how badly OP heartseeker is in PvE. It’s a relatively small buff anyway that adds maybe 20-30 damage in PvP melee clashes, while adding slightly more damage to PvE dungeons.
4) I’m not even sure WHY you are questioning a buff to pistol whip. That ability has been nerfed pretty hard. I have no control over the Anet’s mechanics, what range the ability should have should be decided by the devs.
5) If you don’t even have an internal test whether the change is OP, I suggest you stop thinking that’s OP right now. This scorpion wire ability has almost no damage, can be dodged/blocked/obstructed and should definitely be buffed. Just think about how many people can keep a high time vigor build and evade away…

As for backstab damage and the likes, no I don’t want to see it nerfed. The reason why you’re seeing high numbers is because of critical burst. You cannot nerf the base damage. The entire thief community will scream. And you absolutely can’t change the stealth reveal too. Everyone will scream with the rotations.

As for Mug damage with Boon hate… I’m half on this. You’re making a burst Mug build again, which activates every 45 seconds to 40 seconds (usually), which I find it to be bad in both PvP and WvW (oh noez, a thief backstabbed me to death, nerf plz!). I rather it be a boon hate build, clearing them with Assassin’s signet.

okay,

So nobody else noticed our best heal which yields stealth just also removed our condition removal, so unless you have lyssa rune set or signet of agility. Confusion builds will absoltely destroy you.

add a condition removal to our traita or skills please.

also make pistol whip a mobile skill do to damage nerfs.

LoneWolfie.1852:

As for Mug damage with Boon hate… I’m half on this. You’re making a burst Mug build again, which activates every 45 seconds to 40 seconds

Yep, but a “timed burst”.
Make Mug damage without boons insignificant and make it scale greatly with how many boons the target has.
A s\d could benefit from this timed burst but will have to choose when to land it (strip boons or moar damage?), same as a d\d.
Could actually inject some strategy into certain fights

folly dragon.4126:

okay,

So nobody else noticed our best heal which yields stealth just also removed our condition removal, so unless you have lyssa rune set or signet of agility. Confusion builds will absoltely destroy you.

add a condition removal to our traita or skills please.

also make pistol whip a mobile skill do to damage nerfs.

Shadow’s Embrace Remove one condition every 3 seconds while in stealth.

Erm?

Shadow Return 2 Return to your original location. Cure one condition.

Erm?

Samoleth.5012:

LoneWolfie.1852:

As for Mug damage with Boon hate… I’m half on this. You’re making a burst Mug build again, which activates every 45 seconds to 40 seconds

Yep, but a “timed burst”.
Make Mug damage without boons insignificant and make it scale greatly with how many boons the target has.
A s\d could benefit from this timed burst but will have to choose when to land it (strip boons or moar damage?), same as a d\d.
Could actually inject some strategy into certain fights

If it scales with the damage, does this mean the healing scales too?

Sorry but you have some terrible ideas here.
First off, a nerc to shDow rejuvenation would make it a useless grandmaster trait, you think that’s a strong healing source? Regen rangers say hi, so do d/d eles, guardians and who else…
Whi cares if other classes cry about it? They will always find something to cry over.
Heartseeker does not need a buff, backstab needs a nerf?! Are you mad? Do you even play pvp? The dmv is laughble, in wvw unless you obtain all exotic gear.

Your ideas sounds good but I would add follow things to you list:

Increase Revelation Debuff to 5 Sec; Increase Base sthealth time to 5 Sec, give the thief the baseHP from the engi/ranger/mesmer;
increase base dmg on single target weapon by 75%-100% ; reduce backstab to +50% instead +100%
Reduce Steal-CD on 30 sec

Not sure about this: Reduce Ini-Regeneration Time to 1,35 -1,5 sec

And the stupid comment of the thread award goes to you…
5sec revealed debuff? Have you ever played d/d? This would BREAK the class entirely.
We do not need a bigger health pool, but we absolutely need the abillity to re enter stealth as often as we can.
I mean, look at the Shadow Arts tree, all the traits there ENCOURAGE you to stealth, and what good will a 5 sec stealth do? We do not need that long…

My ideas for buffs:
Add some mobility to pistol mainhand
Revert the ridiculous 4 sec reveal back to 3 sec…
Give traps some love, nobody bothers to use them and they make a big part of our arsenal.

I think if you put in healing trinklets you should get more out of Shadow’s rejuvenation, if you put in some berserker’s trinklets, you should get less out of it. That’s my thought. Also, adding in traps buffs + healing SR tweak might change things a bit.

@lonewolfie
2. ok so you want to nerf thieves regeneration , would be really kitten
if you make comparations with warriors, compare the heal over 30 seconds.
300 healing power warrior : 3 x shouts x 1500 heal *5 ally’s = 4500 heal for 5 ally’s = 22500 heal.
300 healing power on thief : shadow refuge CnD /CnD/blinding powder /Cnd.. etc , considering your opponent don’t dodge, blind you etc.
30 seconds perma stealth x 320 /sec stealthed = 10000 heal
engineirs , rangers , elementalists can get permanent regeneration, if you want i can draw you an picture.
necromancers -wells heal ally’s- AOE
Guardians – dodge heal for x+ 1 *healing power x 5 ally, high regeneration duration etc

3. thieves skill coeficient ratio:
Double Strike (1-1): 0.2775 x2
Wild Strike (1-2) – Lotus Strike (1-3): 0.847
Autoattack chain: 2.249 – 2s – 1.1245
Stealthed – Backstab (front): 1.202 – 0s – N/D
Stealthed – Backstab (back): 2.405 – 0s – N/D
Heartseeker: 1 (>50%)/1.502 (25%-50%)/2.005 (<25%)
Cloak & Dagger: 1.624 – 0.5s
So backstab have 2.4 ratio and heartseeker (under 25% hp) have 2.00 ratio and you want to buff heartseeker, to be more efficient that backstab
4.
because is an imobile skill and you cannot have whirl area
it is an skill that don’t require much brain to land in pve
is spammable

Rayya.2591:

@lonewolfie
2. ok so you want to nerf thieves regeneration , would be really kitten
if you make comparations with warriors, compare the heal over 30 seconds.
300 healing power warrior : 3 x shouts x 1500 heal *5 ally’s = 4500 heal for 5 ally’s = 22500 heal.
300 healing power on thief : shadow refuge CnD /CnD/blinding powder /Cnd.. etc , considering your opponent don’t dodge, blind you etc.
30 seconds perma stealth x 320 /sec stealthed = 10000 heal
engineirs , rangers , elementalists can get permanent regeneration, if you want i can draw you an picture.
necromancers -wells heal ally’s- AOE
Guardians – dodge heal for x+ 1 *healing power x 5 ally, high regeneration duration etc

3. thieves skill coeficient ratio:
Double Strike (1-1): 0.2775 x2
Wild Strike (1-2) – Lotus Strike (1-3): 0.847
Autoattack chain: 2.249 – 2s – 1.1245
Stealthed – Backstab (front): 1.202 – 0s – N/D
Stealthed – Backstab (back): 2.405 – 0s – N/D
Heartseeker: 1 (>50%)/1.502 (25%-50%)/2.005 (<25%)
Cloak & Dagger: 1.624 – 0.5s
So backstab have 2.4 ratio and heartseeker (under 25% hp) have 2.00 ratio and you want to buff heartseeker, to be more efficient that backstab
4.
because is an imobile skill and you cannot have whirl area
it is an skill that don’t require much brain to land in pve
is spammable

There’s some horrible stuff written here….

A) The entire SA line is very powerful with powerful condition removals, blinds every time you go into stealth. I am not proposing Shadow’s rejuvenation tweak without adding other buffs into it as well. If Anet someday decides to have condition removals every 4 seconds instead, then yes, I want a bigger heal from SR. But right now thieves are still reasonably comfortable with the heals.

If you don’t know what I’m talking about, please do not comment on it further.

B) You have a problem calculating. 25% heartseeker with 1 stack of vulnerability does not do more damage than backstabbing. In fact, backstabbing with the high number of stacked vulnerability does more than damage than heartseeker (facepalms).

C) This is the dumbest comment I have ever seen. It’s like saying a Tar elemental, Moa birds, shouldn’t drop a WEAPON or ARMOR in the Anet game. It CANNOT be possible. Right? (facepalms)

Dude, it’s a game. I’m not sure where your mind is running at… but you don’t need to spin around to make it a “whirl”. I think just waving my pistol around like a crazy guy can count as a whirl animation.

PS: Can you go back to your other professions? It’s horrible talking to a player who thinks PVE thief players are happy with all the nerfs because other players whined in PvP or WvW.

actually,

I forgot about shadow return which is cure 3 conditions btw.

and shadows embrace works while in stealth immunity? which by the way cures on the 3rd sec, all stealth is 3 secs unbuffed. So since ive not tried it, I will try it to see how it all works, thanks for the tip.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Rayya.2591:

@lonewolfie
2. ok so you want to nerf thieves regeneration , would be really kitten
if you make comparations with warriors, compare the heal over 30 seconds.
300 healing power warrior : 3 x shouts x 1500 heal *5 ally’s = 4500 heal for 5 ally’s = 22500 heal.
300 healing power on thief : shadow refuge CnD /CnD/blinding powder /Cnd.. etc , considering your opponent don’t dodge, blind you etc.
30 seconds perma stealth x 320 /sec stealthed = 10000 heal
engineirs , rangers , elementalists can get permanent regeneration, if you want i can draw you an picture.
necromancers -wells heal ally’s- AOE
Guardians – dodge heal for x+ 1 *healing power x 5 ally, high regeneration duration etc

3. thieves skill coeficient ratio:
Double Strike (1-1): 0.2775 x2
Wild Strike (1-2) – Lotus Strike (1-3): 0.847
Autoattack chain: 2.249 – 2s – 1.1245
Stealthed – Backstab (front): 1.202 – 0s – N/D
Stealthed – Backstab (back): 2.405 – 0s – N/D
Heartseeker: 1 (>50%)/1.502 (25%-50%)/2.005 (<25%)
Cloak & Dagger: 1.624 – 0.5s
So backstab have 2.4 ratio and heartseeker (under 25% hp) have 2.00 ratio and you want to buff heartseeker, to be more efficient that backstab
4.
because is an imobile skill and you cannot have whirl area
it is an skill that don’t require much brain to land in pve
is spammable

There’s some horrible stuff written here….

A) The entire SA line is very powerful with powerful condition removals, blinds every time you go into stealth. I am not proposing Shadow’s rejuvenation tweak without adding other buffs into it as well. If Anet someday decides to have condition removals every 4 seconds instead, then yes, I want a bigger heal from SR. But right now thieves are still reasonably comfortable with the heals.

If you don’t know what I’m talking about, please do not comment on it further.

B) You have a problem calculating. 25% heartseeker with 1 stack of vulnerability does not do more damage than backstabbing. In fact, backstabbing with the high number of stacked vulnerability does more than damage than heartseeker (facepalms).

C) This is the dumbest comment I have ever seen. It’s like saying a Tar elemental, Moa birds, shouldn’t drop a WEAPON or ARMOR in the Anet game. It CANNOT be possible. Right? (facepalms)

Dude, it’s a game. I’m not sure where your mind is running at… but you don’t need to spin around to make it a “whirl”. I think just waving my pistol around like a crazy guy can count as a whirl animation.

PS: Can you go back to your other professions? It’s horrible talking to a player who thinks PVE thief players are happy with all the nerfs because other players whined in PvP or WvW.

the entire SA line is mediocre, and below average players will consider it OP
2. with 30 points in DA, +40% condition duration buff, you will get 17 seconds vulnerability, if you want i can draw you an picture. (facepalm NR .1)
I am not here to teach you math but in 17 seconds you can spam 10 heartseekers to an target, wich will add 10% extra damage from all the players who hit that target.
IF you want i can draw you an picture here also. (Facepalm nr 2)
3. i am not sure what is dumb
to ask for whirl with pistol in 130 range, or to say it is bad ideea.
P.S . if you have problems with thief in pve, is because your skill lvl is below average.
I’ve runned lvl 30 -40 fractals with thief a lot, without having much trouble.
i can solo dungeons with thief, and many players can.
ppls solo towers, keep in wvwvw with thieves, (PvDor version wich is PVE)
(facepalm nr 3)

No one complains about bad Thieves, because they die.

But as soon as a good one appears, everyone shouts NERF! NERF!

And then we get lists like these, some of these are reasonable.

I think the discussion has digressed to a point of “I can do more heartseekers and damage as proof”!

Which is inane. If you compare DPS, don’t compare it with just a terrible insert add extra 10% dps comment. It’s just beyond silly and utterly pointless. You should have written warrior PvE DPS compared to thief’s PVE DPS for me to take you even seriously.

I am not here to write about how I have problems in PvE or WvW or PvP. I’m talking about thief DPS needs to be higher than in general, which I doubt the buffs I’m proposing even does that too much.

First you go from heartseeker do more damage than backstab to, I can heartseeker 10 times in 17 seconds. I frankly don’t care. How old are you? 13? You’re not here to teach me maths, but your arguments are as childish as one of that age (although that might be quite rude to the 13 years olds).

PS: If you want to ask a whirl that uses 130 range, Cyclone Axe, Staggering Blow, Protector’s Strike, Death Blossom. End of line. I’m not going to reply to anymore on whatever you write. Silly troll =/

LoneWolfie.1852:

I think the discussion has digressed to a point of “I can do more heartseekers and damage as proof”!

Which is inane. If you compare DPS, don’t compare it with just a terrible insert add extra 10% dps comment. It’s just beyond silly and utterly pointless. You should have written warrior PvE DPS compared to thief’s PVE DPS for me to take you even seriously.

I am not here to write about how I have problems in PvE or WvW or PvP. I’m talking about thief DPS needs to be higher than in general, which I doubt the buffs I’m proposing even does that too much.

First you go from heartseeker do more damage than backstab to, I can heartseeker 10 times in 17 seconds. I frankly don’t care. How old are you? 13? You’re not here to teach me maths, but your arguments are as childish as one of that age (although that might be quite rude to the 13 years olds).

PS: If you want to ask a whirl that uses 130 range, Cyclone Axe, Staggering Blow, Protector’s Strike, Death Blossom. End of line. I’m not going to reply to anymore on whatever you write. Silly troll =/

So you are just another PRO that don’t consider side effects of an change.
your vision is just linear and now you are mad that i banished your ideea, and your point was worthless.
I want regeneration nerf cause i don’t use regeneration
i want Hs to be better that backstab, cause i always facestab
i even dare to compare pistol wisp with DB

Black Powder ground-targetted.
Dancing dagger inflicting poison 2s per bounce.
Unblockable shifted back to first hit of FS, One of the boon steals shifted over.
Shadow Embrace and Shadow rejuvenation merged into one trait, toned down accordingly.
Leeching and Venom share merged into one trait.
Assassin’s Retreat and Reward Merged.
Hard to Catch and Fleet of Foot merge.
Flanking Strikes and Initial Strikes Merge.
Sundering strikes to not be crit based and lose the ICD.
Increased damage on tripwire and Needle trap.
Blind on Shadow strike dagger hit, 2 bleeds thrown on the gun shot.
Sneak attack nerfed.
Vulnerability on CnD put to 5 stacks.
Power shots gives Trick shot an extra bounce.
Caltrops puts out only 1 bleed, CD decreased.

MightyMe.1356:

Sorry but you have some terrible ideas here.
First off, a nerc to shDow rejuvenation would make it a useless grandmaster trait, you think that’s a strong healing source? Regen rangers say hi, so do d/d eles, guardians and who else…
Whi cares if other classes cry about it? They will always find something to cry over.
Heartseeker does not need a buff, backstab needs a nerf?! Are you mad? Do you even play pvp? The dmv is laughble, in wvw unless you obtain all exotic gear.

Your ideas sounds good but I would add follow things to you list:

Increase Revelation Debuff to 5 Sec; Increase Base sthealth time to 5 Sec, give the thief the baseHP from the engi/ranger/mesmer;
increase base dmg on single target weapon by 75%-100% ; reduce backstab to +50% instead +100%
Reduce Steal-CD on 30 sec

Not sure about this: Reduce Ini-Regeneration Time to 1,35 -1,5 sec

And the stupid comment of the thread award goes to you…
5sec revealed debuff? Have you ever played d/d? This would BREAK the class entirely.
We do not need a bigger health pool, but we absolutely need the abillity to re enter stealth as often as we can.
I mean, look at the Shadow Arts tree, all the traits there ENCOURAGE you to stealth, and what good will a 5 sec stealth do? We do not need that long…

My ideas for buffs:
Add some mobility to pistol mainhand
Revert the ridiculous 4 sec reveal back to 3 sec…
Give traps some love, nobody bothers to use them and they make a big part of our arsenal.

I dont know why you think it will break the class if you get more base damage better health and more chance to flee or surprise your enemy for only two more sec in reveal?

Stealth is no spam mechanic its a support skill and should be so handled.

Btw, I dont write only about pvp like you, I write over every gamemode (pvp, pve,wvw)

I would love to see them add

trait that allows piercing to pistols
trait that allows increased range 900 in most cases you cant even shooy targets on keep walls. (expecially due to everything being mostly obstructions)
(If the intent isnt to allow for keeps, in skirmishes, 900 range mostly means death)

roll out type of abilities to be considered a leap or blast to allow for group style combo

For me the biggest issue I see with the thief is the fact that Deception utility skills are clearly much better for the most part than almost all the other utility skills we have.

Made a forum post about some fixes a while ago if you want to read it

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Suggestions-for-Thief-Utility-Skills/first#post2004740

Also would love to see some love to pistol whip, pistol main hand skills (except sneak attack which is fine), pistol/pistol weaponset as a whole, dancing dagger, shortbow auto, and tweaks to steal (possibly adding f2 and f3 as an additional steal but increasing CD of steal?)

I’d already be happy if they updated shadow trap into a personal mesmer portal when triggered instead of the current nonsensical version.

Scorpion wire could either have a shorter cd or steal 2 boons on a successful hit.

Pistol whip either need a damage boost, the ability to move during the animation (or blurred frenzy treatment) or a change.
A change idea would be to split the skill in two:
-First part would be a faster melee pistol hit so it can be used as a better melee interrupt (cost 2 ini).
-Second part would be a skill you can use up to 3 times for 5s or until the 3 hits are consumed (each cast woul cost 1 ini), each hits would basically do aoe damage (damage divided in 3 per cast for better synergy with signet of malice) + short evade while being useable while moving.
This change would also need a increased delay in each auto attack part so you could combo auto attacks with each pw cast without it reseting to the first attack of the auto chain. The whole skill would more or less do the same as now in term of damage.

Virgil.3869:

For me the biggest issue I see with the thief is the fact that Deception utility skills are clearly much better for the most part than almost all the other utility skills we have.

Made a forum post about some fixes a while ago if you want to read it

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Suggestions-for-Thief-Utility-Skills/first#post2004740

Also would love to see some love to pistol whip, pistol main hand skills (except sneak attack which is fine), pistol/pistol weaponset as a whole, dancing dagger, shortbow auto, and tweaks to steal (possibly adding f2 and f3 as an additional steal but increasing CD of steal?)

Another Boon user? I think we’re unable to kill the boon users like guardians and elementalists already. Add 1 more to thief to the list, and we will hear no end to it. Everyone will QQ and we shall expect to see a nerf cry. Either buff venoms to stronger attrition (add 33% duration to all venoms), or mass crowd control through grandmaster trait. I don’t see why thieves need a boon buff since they’re very strong under stealth already.

And I don’t recall an addition of utilities to any of the other professions… if there is, everyone wants to expect their own profession to have an addition. What’s blaze trap? As for the traps, yes, they need a buff, but your duration suggestion makes it a nerf (45-60 seconds compared to rangers’ traps cooldown).

Shadow of signet already increases the speed by 25% in combat. As explained, I dislike boons on thieves. If anything, it should increase combat speed to 50% speed by 5 seconds. That makes it sound way more attractive.

And no to Assassin signet’s. You won’t believe the amount of QQ we will get if we get an unblockable CnD into backstab, where their evades and blocks are useless.

Even Roll for initiative is a nerf. You’re nerfing it by like 15% or something.

I think overall looking at your list, it’s more of a nerf than anything. Nobody will want to switch to using venoms/traps with a 60 seconds cooldown.

The first priority of the buffs should be, I build any kind of thief I like, and it’s still as powerful as burst DD thief, DP thief in their own ways. Then we can re-tweak even more of the thief lists.

@ LoneWolfie

I understand that just becoming another boon user may be “boring” or “cookie-cutter”, however most of this is also going under the assumption that stealth may be nerfed judging by how much people still demand thief nerfs even to this day. If Anet decides to cave in and nerf the hell out of stealth what would be left? We saw how much damage such a seemingly small change such as +1 sec to reveal had on thieves.

In regards to your view of venoms I don’t believe simply adding more attrition (i.e. duration) to the venom’s current functions would make them any more attractive compared to deception skills unless they become incredibly overpowered. The reason I listed as venoms possibly applying boons is so other builds such as venom share would become a lot more viable since now venomshare condi thieves could add more support to a party other than sb#2 blast finish and shadow refuge. Also this can allow non stealth thieves to be more viable.

In regards to Signet of Shadow’s i left it at 25% because any higher would make swiftness and parts of the acrobatics trait line a bit useless. And the amount of QQ people would have with a super permaswiftness thief may become as intense as the rage over permastealth.

In regards to trap skills (imho the area where anet really messed up on) the Cooldowns were set at pretty conservative estimates I will admit, however, they function a lot differently than ranger traps since the changes to traps would allow thieves to have control over when and where the traps would trigger not necessarily where the trap was placed allowing more people to potentially get hit by it overall.

Also i fail to see how a 60 second cooldown evade/stun breaker/selective condi cleanser being reduced to a 40 sec/32 sec (if traited) evade/stunbreaker/selective condi cleanser in exchange for some initiative regen as a huge nerf.

I agree that buffs should focus on making a variety of thief builds viable however, only adding more damage (direct, burst, or condition), which a lot of buffs seem to be centered around, would do is further pigeonhole us even more into squishy dps machines who must always take a shortbow and/or make DD burst and DP thieves stronger.

First of all that assumption remains an assumption, Anet reverted it for WvW and PvE, it’s unlikely they want to touch it any further. Next is about the venoms. I didn’t really propose a duration increase for venoms, I proposed AOE venoms for a grandmaster trait, which will really make things go wild. AOE basilisk poison? Suddenly basilisk poison doesn’t look so bad at all.

As for traps, I really dislike seeing mechanic changes.

A) It’s difficult to code.
B) People don’t like to learn.
C) Therefore it’s just better to change numbers.

As for SoS signet, didn’t Anet said they want us to be more mobile? I could care less about what other people think, we’re supposed to be the most mobile profession.

As for the other squishy DPS machines, we are squishy. I think we’re the worst off squishy players compared to any of the other professions. We can’t really survive without having stealth, because if we’re caught, we’re dead. Using S/D with evades works better now, but it’s still a really shabby build without much to look forward to.

I also didn’t really propose a buff to DD burst and DP thieves. I made it slightly weaker, in fact. The only game changer I did make is the Assassin’s signet to clear off 5 boons, while the others are misc buffs like headshot/dancing daggers that do slightly more dmg, which should make it up for changing Shadow’s rejuvenation.

I feel like the only way ANY traps, Thieves or not, are going to become better is if they triggered in to a 3-5 second AOE field, instead of it triggering on the target and hitting instantly.