Guild Wars 2

I have read every forum on the website and this is the place with the single most complaints, there’s minimal complaints in the other class forums and minimal complaints in the sPVP forums. Why is it that everyone hates thieves? Just because you get killed by a thief in WvW doesn’t mean that we need to get nerfed. I have gotten killed my almost every class, but that doesn’t give me a free ticket to go to their forums to complain, because i know that i can improve. I really wish that there was some sort of system that limited the amount of people that complain to those that have legitimately tried everything they can to counter that thief. Or at least a system that stops the qq’ers from spreading misinformation and blurring the situation to justify themselves.

What I hope to come out of this is for:

- All the FOTM thieves to go back to their own professions, and leave thief to those that enjoy their class.

- People that are good with backstab still perform well with it instead of bads trolling other bads with it.

- Stop the constant QQ waves thrown at the thief class.

- Being allowed to ask/suggest buffs in areas that could use some lovin without “LoL Just BS or spam 2222@@!!”

I think the forums should provide random skill testing questions about each class forum before you can post. They would help folks learn about other classes, while prevent completely clueless people from talking about things they know nothing about.

I have no issues with people posting that they would like to see X fixed, as long as what they are saying makes sense, shows a general understanding of the class, and is informed by all the factors involved.

Well its obvious that the massive qq and crying has led up to this once again and it mostly comes from people who dont understand the class or dont want to. Its easier to come to the forums and post thread after thread of qq then going ingame and learning a class or how to counter something. I really want to see how they can “compensate” another nerf.
@Niim yea IF only.

This is coming from a person that has never had any problems versus thief. Before I go further on with my post, here are some basic questions answered:
1. I am not a thief
2. I have never played a thief, nor will I any time soon
3. I have tested several professions in both SPvP and TPvP

If after reading several lines in this post you feel the urge to post, please don’t and finish reading it. Furthermore, don’t turn this thread into another "OMG OP THIEFS! " thread, i have read far too many and it’s becoming a joke.

Now, on to the actual post:

The irony is that half the other classes (professions) have skills that bug out, that have bugs and cannot be used, traits that are not fully functional. I, as a player and a tester, do not understand the reason behind nerfing the thiefs time after time.
It is true that i have not played SPvP as much as others, but from the time i have played it, 90% of the player base run with glass cannon builds and expect to live more than 5 seconds of being focused.

It is sad that GW2 wants to become an e-sport while also listening to all the QQ thrown at the thief from players that, most of the time, play builds that work well only when not focused.

I am not accusing ANet of anything, but it feels that they really listen to 8v8 hotjoin random crap posts. Please…stop. The moment you nerfed 1 thief build, posts on the next build appeared. Literally…minutes.

Players know only how to moan, sigh and rage at the unfairness of it. How is it fair to be instagibbed you ask? It’s simple. Take a minute and actually try to understand what happened to you:
1. Was i low on health? No. => That means that if you got “1 shotted” (defined by the moments it took the thief to take you to 0% hp), you need more vitality/ more toughness / maybe in some cases more awareness.

2. I was full health, running a defensive build and still got instagibbed.

Stop standing still, semi-afk. There is no way for a thief to kill you with a defensive build (traits/skills/stats included) and at full health.

Thiefs are a joke right now against a lot of professions. There are many counters to the backstab build and IF you manage to avoid/outlive their burst, you’ll notice they are so squishy that it makes you wonder how you missed it before.

/insert sarchasm
PS: Nerf thief, buff warriors. Oh wait….
/end sarchasm

offence.4726:

Well its obvious that the massive qq and crying has led up to this once again and it mostly comes from people who dont understand the class or dont want to. Its easier to come to the forums and post thread after thread of qq then going ingame and learning a class or how to counter something. I really want to see how they can “compensate” another nerf.
@Niim yea IF only.

Actually, my complaints stem from me both playing a lvl 80 geared thief doing this, and a lvl 80 guardian trying to figure out how to stop it, because there is no prevention to the stealth raw spike burst dps. There is also no cost of this high damage, if you start taking damage you can just stealth run away.

These forums are linked to our game accounts. I think they should just prevent anyone from posting in a particular class’ forum unless they have a character of that class with a certain minimum level and time played.

that’s why i troll the other forums, without having any clue about that class

Maybe perhaps the high volume of cry is actually is an indication of a problem? the fact that you are the most highly preyed upon class for nerf and qq requests really is an indication of the ridiculous.
Im sorry that you think your stealth build allowing you to take out easily 80 percent of someones health without being seen at all due in part to rendering bugs with stealth but your going to see qq about this until its addressed. simple fact people will always and i mean always complain about invisible damage that all but eliminates their ability to feel like they have a chance.
Now yes you can blindly swing at the little dust spike if you use melee or aoe weapons, drop ground target attacks and hope the thief is dumb enough to stand on them but the fact is people do not like fighting a all but completely invisible foe. especially when on death report it shows that he was invisible not just doing back stab but also steal, heartseaker, etc.
in order to stop the qq and keep your backstab somewhat viable they will have to quickly fix the stealth issues plaguing the game. in which they do and you all will cry for days that although its possible to still stay mostly stealth through a kill it wont be nearly as easy…
l2p doesnt fix the disdain, hate, and annoyance at a completely invisible foe that you can’t see for 10 seconds due to a mix of chaining stealth and the rendering bug extending stealth for every time you “re-enter” what to anyone but yourself appears to be a constant non dropping stealth.
and yes i do have a thief. yes i have played it enough to understand how to chain stealth and to all but the best players own them. no a thief isnt my main.

SKuDDer.1860:

offence.4726:

Well its obvious that the massive qq and crying has led up to this once again and it mostly comes from people who dont understand the class or dont want to. Its easier to come to the forums and post thread after thread of qq then going ingame and learning a class or how to counter something. I really want to see how they can “compensate” another nerf.
@Niim yea IF only.

Actually, my complaints stem from me both playing a lvl 80 geared thief doing this, and a lvl 80 guardian trying to figure out how to stop it, because there is no prevention to the stealth raw spike burst dps. There is also no cost of this high damage, if you start taking damage you can just stealth run away.

It would actually help if you posted suggestions or asked people how to avoid those situations.

In your thread however, you just want Anet to nerf thieves. This is a discussion forum to ask about class mechanics and discuss strategies. Not a place to direct your frustration.

I play Thief, Warrior and Guardian.

Thief is overpowered, it’s clear as day for me.

People get frustrated and there’s where the complaints begin. As a WvWvW player and a thief (only 71) I’ve got to say I see many players simply dying easily and not exactly being examples of attention or awareness or range. This means they go down easy and think its because of imbalance. I don’t die very often because I’m always moving and always equipping abilities to get me out of trouble, I find not dying fun, and I always play thief classes because I like strategic movement being part of the game. Maybe some thing standing still and smacking each other over the head like a Choppa in War is the way some think it should be done. Having said that I got repeatedly killed last night by a warrior spamming whatever root, haste and thousand blades.. 20K in 1.5 seconds. I was a bit on the slow side last night, was probably the beer, but I’m not going to complain on the warriors forums. I get hit hard by other classes I just know my reactions and how I approach them has to better. Its why the game is an enjoyable challenge. I do not want easy mode. May complainers do and should consider a simpler and more easily paced game.

Edelweiss.9815:

I play Thief, Warrior and Guardian.

Thief is overpowered, it’s clear as day for me.

Stun – frenzy/haste (or what ever) – 100b, there you have the damage that you complain about

why they complaing, me also , because 90% ppl play thieves in spvp, yesterday and today i played 6h spvp, and all i see is thief thief thief warrior mesmer thief thief thief thief…i am trying to enjoy my guardian but vs 6 thieves its bloody stupid to play. i change servers all the time and what i see, a thief x6 or more in every server in spvp.
ppl are using it because of spamming 2-2-2-2-2-2. they must nerf them really hard (nerf autoattack dmg=1k dmg no crit whaaat i have a GS and dont do that much dmg, 700 max, and nerf stealth time) and no more 90% thieves in every match.

@Ragnarox – I played for two hours sPvP to see why people complain so hard about thiefs and i saw maximum 2-3 thiefs on a server at a time.

If people really think thiefs are a problem, create a thread to debate that issue with other users, in your own class thread. It’s not hard – ask for how others counter them. I’m sure quite a few players know how to counter thiefs and are happy to provide suggestions on how to improve your build or your game play.

What me, the OP and several other players are saying is stop the QQ and ask for nerfs and start asking yourself on how to improve / counter builds. It’s unfair to thiefs to shout every single build is OP. How would you feel if you were the one being nerfed every single patch?

Dunning-Kruger effect. Look it up. Then stop the QQ fest plz.

And who said these forums weren’t educational.

Ragnarox.9601:

…(nerf autoattack dmg=1k dmg no crit whaaat i have a GS and dont do that much dmg, 700 max, and nerf stealth time) and no more 90% thieves in every match.

Your GS chain:
296, 296 and 443

Thief Dagger chain
188 (x2), 286 and 286

Add in more a lot more damage from the GS compared to a dagger and your numbers don’t add up.

@bow: Instead of being a lemming, start thinking for moment. How can you in any possible way judge ppl’s skill-lvl based on what they post about a wanted nerf? Did you honestly sit down and read all the descriptions of the situations people are complaining about? This is not something with absolute values, nor closed environments. Absolute scales and values are very hard to determine.
As I recall D-K’s studies were aimed mainly at skills that can be measured. Here it is hard to make a scale and there is no evidence. Therefore it all becomes biased.

FrozenLuv.6017:

I have read every forum on the website and this is the place with the single most complaints, there’s minimal complaints in the other class forums and minimal complaints in the sPVP forums. Why is it that everyone hates thieves? Just because you get killed by a thief in WvW doesn’t mean that we need to get nerfed. I have gotten killed my almost every class, but that doesn’t give me a free ticket to go to their forums to complain, because i know that i can improve. I really wish that there was some sort of system that limited the amount of people that complain to those that have legitimately tried everything they can to counter that thief. Or at least a system that stops the qq’ers from spreading misinformation and blurring the situation to justify themselves.

Maybe because the whole thief proff is very cheesy and noob friendly ?

Other classes players bash on us thieves because the amount of skill required to perform decently as a thief is MINIMAL, even inferior to warrior’s thanks to stealth/shadowsteps making you able to escape any undesired/losing fight.

The thief is basically just DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE, and this is reflected by the fact that the thief has basically no utility at all in a group ( both PvE and PvP) aside venom share ( altough we have nice sinergy with AoE combo fields, but this only thanks to the shortbow, the only, REAL thief weapon).

The proff was flawed from the start, beta testers have been complaining for ages about thief “cheesyness”, and the fact aNet is nerfing the thief over and over ( and soon it will be totally useless) just shows how the concept was flawed from the start.

People who really love the thief, instead of whining about the nerfs, should ask for a general overhaul of the profession, because, as it is now, the thief will be nerfed again, and again, and again, and again.

Get over it.

Erika.8256:

I lol’ed @Edelweiss and @Skudder. Guardian, the one class that has a 1 day block buff from the virtue. Yes, your major problem is that you cannot see the Thief. Oh wait…you either block 1 of their attacks or they have to range shot the block off you before doing their “combo”. Not to mention my Guardian has 20k hp, several blocks available, instant heals and every class has dodge/stun breakers available. Yes, it is hard. How about you learn your class’s traits and skills and then return here. Guardians that are not “glass cannons” cannot die from thiefs – period (taking 1v1 into consideration, even 2v1).

As for playing warrior and saying thief is OP, you clearly have no clue on how to play your warrior. The backstab glass cannon build is so OP that 1 hit takes 25% or more of that thief’s health. <3

1. Really again, You assume that a guardian has block up, guardian is a front line class, so more then likely the block is gone from aoe. Aegis passive is once every 40s, then you can use the virtue and pop it again with a 90s CD (any damage you take will remove the block, including bleeds). so at max you have 2 blocks within a 1 1/2 minute window. That’s more then enough time for a thief to do his skill chain again.

2. If you guardian has 20k Hp (without orbs), you are either lacking toughness, or damage. In this case, you might as well have feathers for weapons.

3. No heal a guardian has is instant, they are all 1-2.25s cast times.

4.

How about you learn your class’s traits and skills and then return here.

I clearly know the guardian class, and what point is it to through blind accusations that I need to L2P, it is obvious the majority of people are against this burst damage.

5.

Guardians that are not “glass cannons” cannot die from thiefs

This is not true at all, goto WvWvW, you will die to them all the time, even if you were full toughness/hp with no other stat. You wouldn’t have enough damage to kill them before they would burn you.

@Poxxia The study is used as an example very regularly in describing tennis players. That is something that is also qualitative and not quantitative. Qualitative studies are much more difficult to conduct which is why you have to come up with a very solid methodology. You then also have to account for other casual mechanisms. But to say you cant measure someones competency level in a performance based objective is just plain false.

@bow.6179

Thanks for pointing me there, it’s actually interesting! That might be the first useful post I’ve read on the forums.

SKuDDer.1860:

Erika.8256:

I lol’ed @Edelweiss and @Skudder. Guardian, the one class that has a 1 day block buff from the virtue. Yes, your major problem is that you cannot see the Thief. Oh wait…you either block 1 of their attacks or they have to range shot the block off you before doing their “combo”. Not to mention my Guardian has 20k hp, several blocks available, instant heals and every class has dodge/stun breakers available. Yes, it is hard. How about you learn your class’s traits and skills and then return here. Guardians that are not “glass cannons” cannot die from thiefs – period (taking 1v1 into consideration, even 2v1).

As for playing warrior and saying thief is OP, you clearly have no clue on how to play your warrior. The backstab glass cannon build is so OP that 1 hit takes 25% or more of that thief’s health. <3

1. Really again, You assume that a guardian has block up, guardian is a front line class, so more then likely the block is gone from aoe. Aegis passive is once every 40s, then you can use the virtue and pop it again with a 90s CD (any damage you take will remove the block, including bleeds). so at max you have 2 blocks within a 1 1/2 minute window. That’s more then enough time for a thief to do his skill chain again.

2. If you guardian has 20k Hp (without orbs), you are either lacking toughness, or damage. In this case, you might as well have feathers for weapons.

3. No heal a guardian has is instant, they are all 1-2.25s cast times.

4.

How about you learn your class’s traits and skills and then return here.

I clearly know the guardian class, and what point is it to through blind accusations that I need to L2P, it is obvious the majority of people are against this burst damage.

5.

Guardians that are not “glass cannons” cannot die from thiefs

This is not true at all, goto WvWvW, you will die to them all the time, even if you were full toughness/hp with no other stat. You wouldn’t have enough damage to kill them before they would burn you.

1. It can be traited to proc every 30 secs. Plus, guardians have a block ( blocking 5 attacks) on their OH focus.
Plus they have a (bugged) block on their MH mace.
A mace/focus + whateverweaponyouwant can achieve 8 succesful blocks in a row.

2. there’s a thing called Soldier’s amulet, giving power+toughness+witality. A guardian can go over 45 % crit chance ( thanks to radiance third tier trait) without investing at all in precision gear, aside runes. ( spvp/tpvp of course).

3. Meditations can heal for 2 k each, and can be traited to be istant. A triple meditation guardian can heal istantly for 6k+, if he burns all his utilities at once.

4. You clearly don’t know the guardian class.

5. If you die to a thief as a guardian is really, ONLY your fault. This as long as the thief is a glass cannon.

It’s people of your skill level who make us thieves player to be so defensive about their performances.

As i said the whole thief proff is very broken from its foundations, but noobs like you are clearly causing the whole “thieves are broken” argument to rot.

Before talking crap about thieves, you should FIRSTLY learn your class, then start talking crap about thieves.

Because it’s totally legit to talk trash about thief proff current status, but people who are inexperienced have totally NO CLUE about how this game works.

Also I should say that with qualitative studies you cannot predict you can only say what is. With quantitative studies you are able to actually predict.

@Adein. Thank you.

@Mrbig,

Lets review:
1.) No one specs 20 points into virtues, its a waste, willpower and concentration are underpowered. Focus, blocks 3 attacks, not 5. And its 3 attacks in 4s, assuming someone is able to attack you 3 times in 4 seconds. Even if you did spec 20 points in this line, 1 block every 30s, assuming you don’t actually use virtue of courage. Also you are assuming this is 1v1, which is never the case in WvWvW

2.) This is extremely false, you will not have anywhere near 45% critical chance from power alone. 5% of power is converted to precision. So with base stats being at 916, you need about 900 precision to get to 45% crit, or the equivalent of 18000 power with no precision, you can see this is extremely unrealistic.

3.) So which is it, 5% of power is converted or meditation skills are faster, you have conflicting points, you cant have both and have meditation skills heal you and be instant. You put out 4 abilities when you can only have 3 in that line.

4.) I clearly do.

5.) Not really, if they attack you and don’t get the combo right, they just stealth leave and try again, if you are in a group of people you wont have aegis up, and you get about .25s to realize you are being hit with 3 abilities that render anywhere from 12-20k dmg.

Just for the sake of argument, lets do your build. 30 Valor, 20 virtues, and 20 for whichever, lets say 20 honor since you are doing an aegis build. It makes sense.

So here is the breakdown:
Gain aegis when your health reaches 50%
Virtue of courage is recharged when you rally
Gain might when you block attacks
Gain 1 second of vigor when you critical hit
The end of your dodge roll heals nearby allies
Virtues now also apply the following boons:
Justice:might
Resolve:regeneration
Courage:protection
gain retaliation wen you activate a virtue

Meditations recharge 20% faster
meditation skills are instant
using a meditation skill heals you
aegis heals on removal
two-handed weapon skills recharge 20% faster
deal 10% more damage while under the effects of aegis
Virtue of courage grants 3 seconds of stability. Virtue of courage passive effect triggers every 30 seconds.

So your critical in this build with all gear being tough/vital/power might be 15%. So like you said triple mediation build: Lets say JI/Merciful intervention/Contemplation
Thats, 36s/64s/48s CD on those abilities.

So now you have poor mobility, you have no retreat, no save yourselves. Your power is mediocre, your critical is weak. So you get one go in a ~45s average to heal yourself back to full, but your damage output is so weak, you won’t be able to burn your target.

SKuDDer.1860:

You wouldn’t have enough damage to kill them before they would burn you.

Actually you may have enough damage to kill thief. The problem is: you cant kill him. Because he has the most charge abilities then any other class has.

Right now I enter www, and encounter thief. He try to BS me but I manage to recover his burst and bring him to 1/3 hp. He switch to bow and 5-5-5 from me. I cant catch him with constant swiftness + GS charge. He only has bow and +25% move speed from signet.
90% of times I can catch any profession, its not a case with thief.
In mirrored situation I will not escape him. He will just leap on me 24/7.

@ SkuDDer – no one was talking about WvW. Balance in WvW is lol when people run with their level 2-20 alts and kitten gear. I was talking about sPvP.

Furthermore, " no one speccs 20 points in Virtues " is a statement you cannot make. Instead of QQ whine and what not, how about you go trait 20 points and see how it goes?

You have Shelter, an awesome skill that makes the thief useless. You have a nice shield that knocks him away from you. You have protection most of the time up. You have 2 blocks just from 1 skill, 1 more (without bug) from mace, 3 from focus, 1 from shout (if you enjoy it, depending on composition etc).
You have so much survivability versus a thief. I got jumped without my aegis up in 8v8, while i was solo running. I blocked his backstab by pressing 1 button. Yes, i actually moved to counter the thief, not be amazed at where he came from.

Seriously, if you as a guardian complain (and yes, i saw your " nerf backstab" thread), then YOU are the one doing it wrong. No offense, but i have yet to be killed in sPvP by a thief without me doing something wrong.

One thing i learned in PvP – standing still, moving in a straight line, not watching your back is only your fault. I love to jump, spin, move constantly..it helps to see around and avoid a free hit.

Why is everyone’s response, learn to play your class. I know guardians inside out, and thieves for the most part, both 80 both full exotics, play both in WvWvW. More guardian then the thief. Guardians don’t have anywhere near the burst damage that other professions do, I am more then fine with that, because we are suppose to have survivability instead, but compared to the damage output a thief can do to us, you wouldn’t think so.

So what people like mrbig are saying, is that you should go all defense no damage, because that’s what people want to do.

Erika.8256:

@ SkuDDer – no one was talking about WvW. Balance in WvW is lol when people run with their level 2-20 alts and kitten gear. I was talking about sPvP.

Furthermore, " no one speccs 20 points in Virtues " is a statement you cannot make. Instead of QQ whine and what not, how about you go trait 20 points and see how it goes?

You have Shelter, an awesome skill that makes the thief useless. You have a nice shield that knocks him away from you. You have protection most of the time up. You have 2 blocks just from 1 skill, 1 more (without bug) from mace, 3 from focus, 1 from shout (if you enjoy it, depending on composition etc).
You have so much survivability versus a thief. I got jumped without my aegis up in 8v8, while i was solo running. I blocked his backstab by pressing 1 button. Yes, i actually moved to counter the thief, not be amazed at where he came from.

Seriously, if you as a guardian complain (and yes, i saw your " nerf backstab" thread), then YOU are the one doing it wrong. No offense, but i have yet to be killed in sPvP by a thief without me doing something wrong.

One thing i learned in PvP – standing still, moving in a straight line, not watching your back is only your fault. I love to jump, spin, move constantly..it helps to see around and avoid a free hit.

Anyone that uses PvP to judge balance…. I have many words to express to you. The armor/stats are not the SAME AT ALL. Stop using your 1v1, or 10v10 as example for balance. I have been talking WvWvW, it is vastly different.

@skudder

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQRAsd7dlYgqCnGyNEm4Eh1DCeQ/hVgjXPgYEbIA;TwAA1CnowxgjAHLOOck4sKYUwmiJFA

This is an offensive variation of the common double meditation + stability bunker build.

Usually used in double guardian comps , extremely powerful solo defender.

Right hand strneght gives 15 % crit chance on one handed MH weapons ALONE, + 30% by default is 45 %.

2900 power, 45 % crit damage, 45 % crit chance, 3k armor ( 1800 toughness).

Again, you don’t know the guardian as well as you think.

- All the FOTM thieves to go back to their own professions, and leave thief to those that enjoy their class.

I am already sending them running on my Warrior. hehe

So how does this vary from my build, same survivability, many more ways to heal(every 3rd attack heals + -33% dmg, boons heal me for each player they hit, might on each crit which also heals me, my virtures heal me, and constant -33% dmg reduction. Not to mention my shouts benefit players around me constantly. We have the same toughness, same armor, same health, the only difference is that I probably do more damage while you have 3 extra blocks.

In my opinion the problem isn’t how hard it is to survive a “thief attack.” The problem is that a thief can do very high damage while having the same (or greater) survivability as defensively specced players. Yes, they will die in just a few hits because they are squishy BUT it is next to impossible to hit a thief who is very good at the game. Scenario: A thief attacks you. Let’s say you are a good player and manage to mitigate the thief’s burst (assuming he is running a burst build). Now it’s your turn to attack. Any good thief will already have created distance and prepped themselves for an espape. And so many escape options to choose from…stealth…shadowstep…dodges…shortbow #5…stunbreakers. The problem is not that thieves bring high damage to the fight or that they have very good burst. I have no problem with that. The problem is that they can spec full glass cannon and still have very good survivability due to the mechanics of the profession. If a thief wants to run away midfight because you’re a better player and outplayed him, he will get away unless he’s absolutely terrible. If you want to run away midfight because you got outplayed by a thief, good luck.

If a thief wants to run away midfight because you’re a better player and outplayed him, he will get away unless he’s absolutely terrible. If you want to run away midfight because you got outplayed by a thief, good luck.

It’s like that in every (most) game. Stealthers have the option to pick and choose fights and exit a fight if it goes bad a lot of times. Probably not going to change.

SKuDDer.1860:

Why is everyone’s response, learn to play your class. I know guardians inside out, and thieves for the most part, both 80 both full exotics, play both in WvWvW. More guardian then the thief. Guardians don’t have anywhere near the burst damage that other professions do, I am more then fine with that, because we are suppose to have survivability instead, but compared to the damage output a thief can do to us, you wouldn’t think so.

So what people like mrbig are saying, is that you should go all defense no damage, because that’s what people want to do.

I play thief primarily and I will say that the class who beats me more than anyone else as well as the ones who laughed off that kitchy backstab build more easily and more often than any other class is guardian.

If you are playing guardian and having trouble with thieves, you are absolutely doing it worng. That being said, go have your Guardian 101 lessons in your own forum, please. Thief forums in not the place to learn how to play guardian more efficiently.

Argis.7049:

In my opinion the problem isn’t how hard it is to survive a “thief attack.” The problem is that a thief can do very high damage while having the same (or greater) survivability as defensively specced players. Yes, they will die in just a few hits because they are squishy BUT it is next to impossible to hit a thief who is very good at the game. Scenario: A thief attacks you. Let’s say you are a good player and manage to mitigate the thief’s burst (assuming he is running a burst build). Now it’s your turn to attack. Any good thief will already have created distance and prepped themselves for an espape. And so many escape options to choose from…stealth…shadowstep…dodges…shortbow #5…stunbreakers. The problem is not that thieves bring high damage to the fight or that they have very good burst. I have no problem with that. The problem is that they can spec full glass cannon and still have very good survivability due to the mechanics of the profession. If a thief wants to run away midfight because you’re a better player and outplayed him, he will get away unless he’s absolutely terrible. If you want to run away midfight because you got outplayed by a thief, good luck.

Ah yes, those super-pesky non-existent highly offensively specced defensive thieves. The thieves everyone is complaining about is full offense. They don’t run with extra dodge, shadowsteps, or stun breakers. They have 3 seconds of stealth and backstab like beasts and that’s it. No run speed, no extra invisibility without a Cloak and Dagger hit, nothing but a tremendous outpouring of damage once every 45-60 seconds.

Thieves who can do what you are talking about sacrifice a lot of damage potential in order to be able to do so. They jump in, hope to take you by surprise or catch you after you are already damaged, and then either make the kill or get away….more often than not, it’s the latter if their opponent knows how to fight a thief.

I will not talk about sPvP because thief’s opness does not exist there. There are viable competetive builds but there is no instagib op thieves in arenas. Maybe there is just not enough bad people to be dominated by them.
In WvW, before writing any complaint at all directed at a certain class mechanic and not the technical issue, one should make a definite list of by what situation can be objectively judged.
Before anything, question of how many of you and your allies were fighting how many enemies and in what kind of situation.
Without knowing wether you were alone for some reason or with reliable/unreliable allies, whether you occupied yourself with anything, were actively observing situation or bluntly running forward without looking around. Were you pushing your opponents or were ambushed at a camp? Without this kind of information absolutely nothing can be analyzed. Before anything, in mmo, surroundings always have the most impact on your success/failure no matter who you are. Secondly, your relation to the situation you are in must be questioned. And LASTLY and least impotantly, your personal characteristics (stats and skills) can be taken in account.
I am a thief with a sufficiently high success rate in countering solo roaming builds even when I am wearing zero defensive gear. Though my main purpose is in party I cannot allways be surrounded by allies to protect me so I had to learn how to deal with those who come to WvW with only option of being able to kill lone player. I do not rely on stealth even a single bit and my selection of defensive traits is serverly limited even if I am given enough time out of combat to switch few traits. Some may laugh at this, but I play for the fun and for the looks and never considered myself any good. Being P/P I love so much now and shortbow I am coming to forums willing to share my knowledge and experience and aquire new only to be forced to try and beat some trivial things in people heads, sometimes so trivial that moderators consider my posts uninformative and delete them.
I am willing to help anyone, just provide me with enough things to work with and leave all kinds of complaints for a-net to figure out. They made awesomest Guild Wars pvp without having to read masses of complaints.
Do not make A-net regret having this kind of forum for their new game more than they already do.
Thats is what I want people to know. It is not about wvw or pvp concepts. It is about a concept of a Valuable contribution to this game’s future balance.

Argis.7049:

In my opinion the problem isn’t how hard it is to survive a “thief attack.” The problem is that a thief can do very high damage while having the same (or greater) survivability as defensively specced players. Yes, they will die in just a few hits because they are squishy BUT it is next to impossible to hit a thief who is very good at the game. Scenario: A thief attacks you. Let’s say you are a good player and manage to mitigate the thief’s burst (assuming he is running a burst build). Now it’s your turn to attack. Any good thief will already have created distance and prepped themselves for an espape. And so many escape options to choose from…stealth…shadowstep…dodges…shortbow #5…stunbreakers. The problem is not that thieves bring high damage to the fight or that they have very good burst. I have no problem with that. The problem is that they can spec full glass cannon and still have very good survivability due to the mechanics of the profession. If a thief wants to run away midfight because you’re a better player and outplayed him, he will get away unless he’s absolutely terrible. If you want to run away midfight because you got outplayed by a thief, good luck.

Ah yes, those super-pesky non-existent highly offensively specced defensive thieves. The thieves everyone is complaining about is full offense. They don’t run with extra dodge, shadowsteps, or stun breakers. They have 3 seconds of stealth and backstab like beasts and that’s it. No run speed, no extra invisibility without a Cloak and Dagger hit, nothing but a tremendous outpouring of damage once every 45-60 seconds.

Thieves who can do what you are talking about sacrifice a lot of damage potential in order to be able to do so. They jump in, hope to take you by surprise or catch you after you are already damaged, and then either make the kill or get away….more often than not, it’s the latter if their opponent knows how to fight a thief.
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I suppose I misspoke what I meant to say earlier. A Thief can gear themselves into full berserker’s gear and still have very good survivability through traits, utilities, and weapon skills. All while maintaining very good burst and/or DPS builds. I’m not talking about the idiot thieves who try to backstab. Those are laughable. I already stated that my problem is not with the damage that they can deal. It’s the fact that nearly any thief (except the aforementioned backstabbing fools) will be able to run away from me successfully mid-fight if he wants to with no chance of me catching him, regen to full health, and then re-engage on-demand. Thieves are the only profession I ever have trouble finishing off in a 1v1 once I’ve started winning. Any other profession that tries to run I can CC to keep them close or catch up to them with permanent swiftness and a big lunge. I can try to CC a thief all I want but the ones who have developed some sense of skill will be able to get away. The only other profession that gives me a hard time occasionally is Mesmer but I can usually get them it just takes a little longer than other professions. Once again, my problem is not fighting Thieves as I generally don’t have too much trouble fighting them off. My problem is how easy it is for them to disengage and reset a fight.

bow.6179:

Dunning-Kruger effect. Look it up. Then stop the QQ fest plz.

Did you play LotR online?

Freedom of talk….you heard of it?
Besides dont degrade others opinions, suggestions and ideas to “moaning and qq”.
Thats the most evil thing ppl do on net.
I feel sad, that you dont saw any buildfull posts, or posts that say : i would like xy, and could be implemented xy way, so it wont throw out balance.
The problem is : Ppl like YOU come and think its “qq” and arrogantly talk down anyone, who thinks not.

Mrbig.8019:

The thief is basically just DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE, and this is reflected by the fact that the thief has basically no utility at all in a group ( both PvE and PvP) aside venom share ( altough we have nice sinergy with AoE combo fields, but this only thanks to the shortbow, the only, REAL thief weapon).

Utilities: Shadow refuge, Smokescreen and (for a charr) battle roar

My guildteam likes having me in the team during dungeons rly … A thief can be rolled supportively if done right, without losing a lot of dmg. Though it requires a lot more attention to what your teammates are doing (cause my setup is more about protecting my team from dying, or reviving them without dying myself)

I’ll stop complaining when you tell me how to beat the cheeze perma stealth builds.

THey dont do big burst, but you can only hit them 1 second out of 10 while they beat the life out of you

there is no 1v1 pvp in this game. If you do, it is a limitation you call on yourself. That is the only thing those thieves abuse.

Taerik.3405:

I’ll stop complaining when you tell me how to beat the cheeze perma stealth builds.

THey dont do big burst, but you can only hit them 1 second out of 10 while they beat the life out of you

Learn their movements, and hit them even when they are cloaked. Just like you would do when fighting shadow skelks. PbAoE’s work too, and whatever you do, don’t stand still

>All these QQ’ers probably never even played thief! They don’t know how hard we have it!

Please. Why don’t YOU try playing another class and see how difficult it is to deal with a thief.

As a ranger there is almost nothing I can do vs thief. Here are the arguments I’ve seen on this board:

>just use your stun/root and they’re toast!
But thieves can escape my entangle roots with the push of a button…

>drop your AoE’s when he stealths!
This never works. They run (or should I say cartwheel flip) right through the traps/arrow-rain and proceed to down me in 2 seconds.

>thieves are so glass, just burst them and they’ll go down!
one, when a thief feels like he is going to die, he just blink-teleports away. Zoop! out of reach, and able to run away until hes fully healed. Yeah you cant catch a thief when he wants to run, period.
two, when a thief feels like he is going to die from my ranged attack, he can always just spin2win and reflect all my damage for, what, 10 seconds or so? way too long.

Someone, please tell me,
How am I supposed to deal with a thief as a ranger?

cant wait for the “l2p”, “u r bad”, etc etc. replies

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Mrbig.8019:

The thief is basically just DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE, and this is reflected by the fact that the thief has basically no utility at all in a group ( both PvE and PvP) aside venom share ( altough we have nice sinergy with AoE combo fields, but this only thanks to the shortbow, the only, REAL thief weapon).

Utilities: Shadow refuge, Smokescreen and (for a charr) battle roar

My guildteam likes having me in the team during dungeons rly … A thief can be rolled supportively if done right, without losing a lot of dmg. Though it requires a lot more attention to what your teammates are doing (cause my setup is more about protecting my team from dying, or reviving them without dying myself)

That can be done by necros-mesmers-eles a lot more effectively by slotting a single signet.

A thief is usually an hinderance to PvE parties unless condition specced with venom share.

In PvP we absolutely don’t have any utility at all aside venom share and shadow refuge ( which is basically ridicolously OP, strange people talks so little about it) and all a thief can do is DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE, a thing where the class really shone before the nerfs ( and the nerf to assassin signet only made legit again the HS spam).

I believe thief damage ( or the way it deals damage) will be reduced or changed. And it’s a very healthy thing for the game.

The problem is that the thief doesn’t have anything else: to nerf thief burst they should really redo a lot of things of the thief class.

And since i don’t believe they’ll do it right ( they have never did from the start), i’m waiting eagerly for the “useless thief period” before they totally rehaul the profession .

Dutch Master.7208:

Please. Why don’t YOU try playing another class and see how difficult it is to deal with a thief.

As a ranger there is almost nothing I can do vs thief. Here are the arguments I’ve seen on this board:

>just use your stun/root and they’re toast!
But thieves can escape my entangle roots with the push of a button…

>drop your AoE’s when he stealths!
This never works. They run (or should I say cartwheel flip) right through the traps/arrow-rain and proceed to down me in 2 seconds.

>thieves are so glass, just burst them and they’ll go down!
one, when a thief feels like he is going to die, he just blink-teleports away. Zoop! out of reach, and able to run away until hes fully healed. Yeah you cant catch a thief when he wants to run, period.
two, when a thief feels like he is going to die from my ranged attack, he can always just spin2win and reflect all my damage for, what, 10 seconds or so? way too long.

Someone, please tell me,
How am I supposed to deal with a thief as a ranger?

cant wait for the “l2p”, “u r bad”, etc etc. replies

I would never tell a Ranger to l2p against any class. My secondary is a Ranger and they are severely kittened right now against anything and everything. Honestly, if ANet should focus on any class right now, it’s this one. They need it more than any other class needs a buff or nerf.

That being said, Sword/Torch is an ok counter to thief…..maybe?