Guild Wars 2

Hello guys,

First of all, i would say that i’m pretty much satisfied with the thief.

Now almost every set is viable, but there are still some lacks.

Some of them are pretty annoying, and sincerely, the thief really feels as the most imba class.

i’ll start with the analysis.

Steal

No really, no.

I don’t want to exaggerate, but this skill ( mechanic ?) just doesn’t feel right from a balance perspective.

6/8 items are OP as hell, THEY EVEN MADE WHIRLING AXE GOOD ( perma evade ? OMG)

4 secs daze ( LOLWUT ?!?!?) from a guardian
AoE heal, condition removal + water field from rangers ( O_O)
3secs AoE fear from necros ( O_o)

etc etc etc.

Then we have Throw gunk and Ice stab . Why , i mean , just why ?

Currently , Steal is really OP, as long as you don’t steal from engies and eles.

People may like it, since they like supermegaiper gimmicks, but this skill just doesn’t feel right.

It’s not balanced, really.

Even more now, that is super useful, i beg aNet to reconsider this mechanic design, since a good rehaul could help those areas where the thief still lacks.

Initiative

Initiative, with the increased regen and traits, just felt right.

The only thing i would do to make ini PERFECT is to increase the pool to 15 ( changing preparedness into something else).

Nothing else, really

Traits

Every traitline has its uses, and its purposes. Aside trickery.
This traitline is simply a mess.

Probably due to Steal being “meh” ( a good skill after 45 or 34 secs, doesn’t really change that much), but the only reason to go into this traitline is preparedness.
And since you put 15 traits, and you’re here, why don’t we put another 5 and take Bountiful theft ( very good).

I would reconsider this traitline, along with Steal, and give by default 15 ini.

Other traitlines are good, but still somehow imba. We’ll see in the next month what else will come out.
A deeper analysis will follow.

Viability

Overall, the thief feels fine.

I’ve to say that i’m probably biased, since i’ve always played a “pseudo” venom build with no share ( leeching venom right now is huge, TOO huge, and shadow rejuvenation is third tier, making leeching venom overall better), but there’s still place for improvements.

Especially on the support department.

yeah, because there’s not thief without a shortbow. Because it’s BY FAR the best weapon, being not only able to dish out decent damage ( cluster bomb hitting for 3.5 – 4k ), but able to deal GOOD support by simply putting 15 points into deadly arts.

Yeah, because those 15 points are really needed to give decent support. With the shortbow, it’s AoE poison+ weakness ( with 30 deadly art point it’s 7 secs of poison-weakness in a single shot, stacking duration), and also make Spider venom HUGE.

Since you’re putting those 15 points, why shouldn’t we put another 5 and create our dear venom build, a very powerful build in tPvP.

I’ve been recently running with a stealth/ganker/high mobility D/P thief, but stealth issues are really destroying this build for competitive play.

What could be done to increase thief viability ? Simple.

Here i go with my list of suggestion ( hoping this thread won’t end in rage, as usual)

Utilities

Deception

- Remove Blinding powder ( it overlaps with shadow refuge, that is obviously better), change it with:

Dark barrier ->
Create a dome of darkness, reflecting projectiles and removing conditions
CD -> 60 secs Combo field -> dark Duration -> 4 secs Radius -> 360-420

- Change Smoke screen into:

Smoke bomb ->
Launch a smoke bomb, causing blind with each pulse
CD -> 45 secs Combo field -> smoke Duration -> 6 secs Radius -> 360-420

Tricks

Caltrops -> add ground targetting selection

Roll for initiative -> 3 conditions. It overlaps with withdraw as a mobility tool, also removing the same conditions.

Venoms

Skale venom -> BURN ( or bleed) foes with your next 3 attacks ( it overlaps with Spider venom as soon as you get lotus poison: it’s better to give a totally different effect, maybe damage)

Ice drake venom -> added vulnerability ( right now, it’s simply not worth when compared to devourer and spider)

Basilisk -> dunno, i would simply increase ths stun duration to 2 secs and make it unaffected by residual venom. Pretty simple.

Signets

Signet of shadows -> improve movement speed by 10 % . Blind and immobilize your opponent ( as it always should have been)

Signet of agility becomes Signet of thievery-> rip 2 boons from oppoents and give them to allies ( 35 secs CD)

Trap

I don’t like them. They’re bugged, not persistent ( aside ranger ones, which create combo fields), I would simply make them AoE ( like any normal trap should be) and tweak them as it follows ( tripwire would be freaking OP). As they stand, they have no use, aside ambush trap ( which is very powerful).
Shadow trap is a joke, really.

STEAL

Reduce Steal CD to 25 secs, remove the shadowstep ( turning it into a leap forward-return to your previous position animation) , give F2-F3-F4 pockets with shared CD ( 25 secs), with Cunnning ( thief unique stat) to affect pockets recharge time ( instead of Steal recharge time).

Of course stole item power ( and also mug power, of course) should be tweaked.

Mace head crack ( guardian) -> 2 secs daze ( instead of 4)
Healing seed ( ranger) ->4 secs duration ( instead of 6)
ectoplasm ( mesmer) -> gain all boons for 5 secs ( instead of 10 )
throw gunk ( engeneer) -> throw gear ( 2 secs stun)
Ice stab ( elementalist) ->whatever, this is quite bad, especially for ranged thieves
Skull fear ( necro) -> 2 secs duration ( from 3)
blinding thuft ( thief) -> fine as it is
Whirling axes ( war) -> 3 secs duration ( from 5, which is freaking OP)

Initiative

Rise it up to 15 by default, that is all.

tl:dr;

Suggestions made to increase thief viability , making our “meh” utilities into something better.
This to avoid “venoms need”, increase thief combo fields ( with few simple steps) and make all our U-skills good, in order to increase builds variance.

Maybe all of them togheter would be quite OP, but with a good portion of them executed, the thief would be perfect.

now, discuss.

don’t you think its a little soon or this kind of thing? can you honestly say you even know how to play this game yet, let alone have a deep enough grasp to be able to come up with good design suggestions? i wouldn’t make that claim about myself. i don’t think anyone else is in a different position right now.

Thief does not need any help. And 15 base initiative is far too OP.

Stealth is broken, despite all the limitations its just strong.

Steal has way too many traits for it, one skill should not give you a super strong ability, aoe blind, stealth, poison, and 2 extra initiative.

The cd between stealths should be increased imo. I can literally spam attacks from stealth, and when im not stealthed, im dodging and leaving caltrops everywhere. Thieves are too hard to hit lol.

Summong thieves is just cheap. We do NOT need any help in the dmg dept, and they also spam blind. I’m talking about the trap btw. Speaking of which, triggering a trap and still remaining in stealth seems..unfair. Maybe not allow them to be set right on top of where ppl are standing.

Thief will probably get a nerfbat once ppl stop spamming heartseeker like noobs.

amradio.2513:

Thief does not need any help. And 15 base initiative is far too OP.

Stealth is broken, despite all the limitations its just strong.

Steal has way too many traits for it, one skill should not give you a super strong ability, aoe blind, stealth, poison, and 2 extra initiative.

The cd between stealths should be increased imo. I can literally spam attacks from stealth, and when im not stealthed, im dodging and leaving caltrops everywhere. Thieves are too hard to hit lol.

Summong thieves is just cheap. We do NOT need any help in the dmg dept, and they also spam blind. I’m talking about the trap btw. Speaking of which, triggering a trap and still remaining in stealth seems..unfair. Maybe not allow them to be set right on top of where ppl are standing.

Thief will probably get a nerfbat once ppl stop spamming heartseeker like noobs.

The reason why the thief needs help is exactly because it’s gimmicky and broken.

Steal has been complained from when the thief has been revealed ( 2 years ago) and the only thing they did is filling it with OP traits making it a “do everything” skill, something absolutely broken.
Oh, and making stolen items ridicolously OP.

Moreover, there’re tons of redundancies and things not working, especially about stealth.

The thief needs TONS of help in order to become a better prof.

Currently it’s not balanced, yet far from being OP. I would worry a lot more about the mesmer.

Mrbig.8019:

Shadow trap is a joke, really.
…..
now, discuss.

You can’t be serious. Shadow Trap can be used in PvP to ambush people who’re capping your points.

Stop posting. Or at least make it look neat and nice so people will actually care about anything you just said.

Suggestion forum elsewhere.

Throw Gunk is actually really, really useful when combined with combo finishers. Death Blossom especially, but also Heartseeker of course. Hell, you can even drop down Black Powder in it, and it SHOULD cause the blast finisher to interact with Throw Gunk.

Yay for Ethereal combo fields!

To the OP: Isn’t your first post just a copy-paste from GW2 Guru that you made a few days before launch? If so, has nothing changed in your opinions?
To Drake:
Glad to see you posting on the official forums, I’ve always appreciated your input on MMO-Champ. I believe Throw Gunk is underused and understated, but still somewhat pales in comparison to say, Consume Ectoplasm or the Spin-To-Win.
The tooltip on Throw Gunk is actually a little misleading. It actually applies 1 random condition per second the foe stands in it, not just 1 random condition.

On a random side note-
Whenever someone cusses, the word is replaced with the word “kitten.” I just figured that out.

Zunhar.4079:

To the OP: Isn’t your first post just a copy-paste from GW2 Guru that you made a few days before launch? If so, has nothing changed in your opinions?

Absolutely.

The thief is an amazingly fun class to play. But there’re issues.

Other classes have tons of great utility skills, while the thief is quite the only one needing extensive trait investment to make our ( for istance) venom worthy.

Our traps are clunky, and there’s no place for them IN EVERY tournament build ( guess why).

Blinding power is the worse version of shadow refuge.

Some signets are totally underwhelming/imba like SoS or SoA.

Steal is OP when traited, useless ( aside the OP stolen skill: gimmicky things are gimmicky).

There are tons of issue with this class.

Simply because we can perform well ( using always the same U-skills, guess why), it doesn’t mean the class is fine.

I think Ice Shard Stab is pretty good. I dislike Throw Gunk, though.

weird, i love throw gunk

Mrbig.8019:

Now almost every set is viable, but there are still some lacks.

disagree. the disparity in usefulness and efficiency between the weapon sets is very large. i think alot of people agree with me on this. my opinion of the relative rankings of the sets for PvP is as follows (ranked from best to worst)

1) Sword+Pistol tied with Dagger+Dagger (both very effective melee sets)
2) Shortbow (nearly mandatory weapon for your weapon swap, incredibly high utility even if damage is only moderate)
3) huge gap. no other weapon set is close to the ones mentioned above
4) Dagger+Pistol (still a respectable 1on1 set but suffers badly from total lack of AoE)
5) Pistol+Dagger (can be useful for harrasment and defensive kiting, sometimes used by venom aura support builds, but generally tough to justify due to low damage)
6) Pistol + Pistol (should have good single target damage, but doesn’t because Unload is too inefficient for its initiative cost. like Dagger+Pistol, this also suffers greatly from total lack of AoE.)
7) Sword+Dagger (basically just dysfunctionally bad in PvP. low damage, broken dual skill)

Mrbig.8019:

Steal

No really, no.

I don’t want to exaggerate, but this skill ( mechanic ?) just doesn’t feel right from a balance perspective.

6/8 items are OP as hell, THEY EVEN MADE WHIRLING AXE GOOD ( perma evade ? OMG)

4 secs daze ( LOLWUT ?!?!?) from a guardian
AoE heal, condition removal + water field from rangers ( O_O)
3secs AoE fear from necros ( O_o)

etc etc etc.

Then we have Throw gunk and Ice stab . Why , i mean , just why ?

Currently , Steal is really OP, as long as you don’t steal from engies and eles.

I disagree with you that this mechanic is overpowered in the way you say it is or that Throw Gunk and Ice Stab are bad.

First, you’ve got at least one factual error here. Whirling Axe does not evade. You can absolutely be smacked around while whirling. Its not a leap-evade like Death Blossom. Its a channeled PBAoE, like Dagger Storm. except it doesn’t reflect projectiles. you’re very vulnerable while doing it.

My opinion is that Throw Gunk is extremely good actually. Its an ethereal combo field! applying the random conditions in a small area is not whats good about it. comboing off the field is whats good. Leaping through it gives Chaos Armor, which is very useful. Whirling through it (from Death Blossom, for example) sends out Confusion Bolts! stacking confusion on every enemy around you is amazing. Maybe your experience with this is based only on Sword+Pistol weapon set. Dagger+Dagger can combo the heck out of it and its a great Steal item.

Ice Stab is also extremely powerful. Its a 10 second duration chill. Thats ludicrously long duration. Consider the context. You steal it from an Elementalist. A class that is trying to kite you and is largely mitigated by waiting for their most powerful abilities to finish cooling down. Chilling an elementalist is a death sentence for them. They won’t be able to kite you. They won’t get their good skills cooled down before they die. Its extremely good specifically against the target you steal it from.

The stolen abilities ARE powerful. I don’t consider them overpowered though. Thieves don’t have a powerful long-cooldown weapon skill the way most classes do. Most classes have a 30sec or 45sec cooldown skill on their ⁵ button. Thieves don’t. Our most potent attacks are like 6 initiative, which is basically the equivalent of a 6 or 8 second cooldown ability from another class. Thieves basically have 4 skills that are the same magnitude of the ² or ³ skills of other classes. We have none that are like the powerful, but long cooldown ⁴ or ⁵ skills. So instead we Steal them. Thats how it works. We don’t have our own Power Skills. We take them from our enemy.

Mrbig.8019:

Initiative

Initiative, with the increased regen and traits, just felt right.

The only thing i would do to make ini PERFECT is to increase the pool to 15 ( changing preparedness into something else).

kinda agree. Preparedness feels REALLYkittenimportant. whenever I’m playing a build without it I feel just generically weaker and more awkward. I think the initiative system is very good in general but i don’t like having a trait that feels as close to “must have” as Preparedness now feels. note that i don’t feel like this is a power level issue. 12 initiative is enough, really. its just that 15 feels so much better. In the interest of build diversity i wouldn’t mind seeing some kind of change here.

Mrbig.8019:

Traits

Every traitline has its uses, and its purposes. Aside trickery.
This traitline is simply a mess.

Probably due to Steal being “meh” ( a good skill after 45 or 34 secs, doesn’t really change that much), but the only reason to go into this traitline is preparedness.
And since you put 15 traits, and you’re here, why don’t we put another 5 and take Bountiful theft ( very good).

I would reconsider this traitline, along with Steal, and give by default 15 ini.

i couldn’t disagree more strongly. Steal is not a MEH ability at all. its really really good, and not just for the stolen items (those those are good too). The traits in several of the lines make Steal into an absolutely awesome build focal point ability.

For example, I often play a backstab build with points in Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts. This spec gets a Steal that does large burst damage (from mug), inflicts Poison and Weakness (from Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison), and puts you in a 3 second Stealth (from Hidden Thief), which blinds all enemies near you automatically (from Cloaked in Shadow, synergizing with Hidden Thief). Then you’re in stealth and right next to your opponent so you can unload a huge, auto crit (from Hidden Killer) Backstab for gigantic burst damage.

That is NOT a “meh” ability. I’d gladly use that ability even if it didn’t steal any items at all. The traits make Steal AWESOME. So good that being able to do it every 34 seconds instead of every 45 seems useful to me.

That aside, I also think you’re wrong that the Trickery trait line is a mess. I think most people will strongly disagree with you here. Some of the most powerful and useful traits are in this line. I think if you ask the community you’ll find that Kleptomianc, Preparedness, Uncatchable, Thrill of the Crime, Initial Strike, and Bountiful Theft are all very popular because they are powerful and useful.

metaphorm i cant help but disagree with ya man, ya D/P has no aoe damage, but its black powder fields are a major pain when used right.

in fact since ive went 30 crit, 30 stealth, 10 trickery for a DP build, my performance has skyrocketed..a case of paper says one thing actual play says another?

i’ve played Dagger+Pistol alot actually. I do like the build. It has alot of good things about it. Very high single target damage, kinda tanky due to Black Powder, and excellent gap closing.

Its a respectable weapon set to be sure but I still prefer Dagger+Dagger. It just Backstabs way better (has Cloak and Dagger after all) and Death Blossom is great; decent damage even if you don’t stack condition damage, insane damage if you do.

as much as i like black powder i eventually just dropped the off-hand pistol. its just a matter of performance for me. i get more kills and cap more points as Dagger+Dagger. results don’t lie. maybe its just my playstyle, but the difference for me was really noticeable.

First, you’ve got at least one factual error here. Whirling Axe does not evade. You can absolutely be smacked around while whirling. Its not a leap-evade like Death Blossom. Its a channeled PBAoE, like Dagger Storm. except it doesn’t reflect projectiles. you’re very vulnerable while doing it.
snip
Actually, Whirling Axe DOES evade. The entire animation of it. I agree with the rest of what you said, but this is wrong. Yes its channeled, yes its PBAoe, but it does evade.

Why compare Blinding Powder to Shadow Refuge? Blinding Powder can be activated at the drop of a hat making it more viable in close quarters then Shadow Refuge which makes to have to target a location and limit’s it’s stealth to that location.

Also I’m not sure how you use Throw Gunk and Ice Stab but I find Gunk Throw great in a close quarters fights and Ice Stab great for preventing enemies from escaping.

Also you call Steal a “gimmick” a lot. Care to explain what exactly makes it a gimmick. No cop-out explanations please.

[quote[i’ve played Dagger+Pistol alot actually. I do like the build. It has alot of good things about it. Very high single target damage, kinda tanky due to Black Powder, and excellent gap closing.

Its a respectable weapon set to be sure but I still prefer Dagger+Dagger. It just Backstabs way better (has Cloak and Dagger after all) and Death Blossom is great; decent damage even if you don’t stack condition damage, insane damage if you do.

as much as i like black powder i eventually just dropped the off-hand pistol. its just a matter of performance for me. i get more kills and cap more points as Dagger+Dagger. results don’t lie. maybe its just my playstyle, but the difference for me was really noticeable.[/quote]

i cant figure out why people are saying this! ive tried it both ways (heavy condition, heavy power) and DB is useless outside of its evasion mechanic for a power build, any damage you do is better served in a backstab or autoattack. ive tested in on target golems, the clas npcs and actually in pvp matches, results are the same, its not worth using in a power build unless you really need that dodge.

playstyle may be a factor tho for you, i switched FROM D+D to D+P and my avg glory and K/D ratio went up by a very noticeable bit. 30 crit, 30 stealth, 10 trickery, thieves guild, shadow meld, shadow refuge, runspeed signet, power signet

(lol, forum is broken again)

@metaphorm

The point about Steal is that the stolen abilities are far from being “balanced”.

Whirling axes DOES evade, it’s not called "spin to win " without a reason. With a crit build, i do from 6 to 10 k damage. AoE. Without getting harmed. it’s ridicolous.

4 secs daze from a guardian allow me to put EVEN A GUARDIAN ( the tougher class in the game, hands down) from 100 to 0, unless heavily built with stun breakers-toughness. I’ll let you figure it out how it goes against other classes.

6/8 stolen skills are ridicolously OP. And they made them like this because in early stage of this game, Steal wasn’t used at all. Because nobody cared about a 45 secs CD skill with weak effects.
Then they made those skills non random and ridicolously OP and OPLA’, everybody use Steal.

Thieves are using Steal because it’s OP, and it becomes even more OP when you fill it with traits. LOL, Mug alone justifies the usage of this skill, with its 4k damage.

Steal is not a good mechanic, it’s just an OP skill with tons of effect added, making it a “do everything” no brainer: a gimmick ( this is also answering to @dual)

Of course Steal it’s useful: it’s OP.

But it’s not well designed, neither incorporated into thief playstyle : the only way to really incorporate it and feel Steal being part of your class is when you put Hidden Thief on a stealth build, also sensibly reducing Steal CD ( because no matter what, 45 secs CD is ALWAYS too much, even when traited).

metaphorm.6904:

Mrbig.8019:

Initiative

Initiative, with the increased regen and traits, just felt right.

The only thing i would do to make ini PERFECT is to increase the pool to 15 ( changing preparedness into something else).

kinda agree. Preparedness feels REALLYkittenimportant. whenever I’m playing a build without it I feel just generically weaker and more awkward. I think the initiative system is very good in general but i don’t like having a trait that feels as close to “must have” as Preparedness now feels. note that i don’t feel like this is a power level issue. 12 initiative is enough, really. its just that 15 feels so much better. In the interest of build diversity i wouldn’t mind seeing some kind of change here.

Mrbig.8019:

Traits

Every traitline has its uses, and its purposes. Aside trickery.
This traitline is simply a mess.

Probably due to Steal being “meh” ( a good skill after 45 or 34 secs, doesn’t really change that much), but the only reason to go into this traitline is preparedness.
And since you put 15 traits, and you’re here, why don’t we put another 5 and take Bountiful theft ( very good).

I would reconsider this traitline, along with Steal, and give by default 15 ini.

i couldn’t disagree more strongly. Steal is not a MEH ability at all. its really really good, and not just for the stolen items (those those are good too). The traits in several of the lines make Steal into an absolutely awesome build focal point ability.

For example, I often play a backstab build with points in Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts. This spec gets a Steal that does large burst damage (from mug), inflicts Poison and Weakness (from Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison), and puts you in a 3 second Stealth (from Hidden Thief), which blinds all enemies near you automatically (from Cloaked in Shadow, synergizing with Hidden Thief). Then you’re in stealth and right next to your opponent so you can unload a huge, auto crit (from Hidden Killer) Backstab for gigantic burst damage.

That is NOT a “meh” ability. I’d gladly use that ability even if it didn’t steal any items at all. The traits make Steal AWESOME. So good that being able to do it every 34 seconds instead of every 45 seems useful to me.

That aside, I also think you’re wrong that the Trickery trait line is a mess. I think most people will strongly disagree with you here. Some of the most powerful and useful traits are in this line. I think if you ask the community you’ll find that Kleptomianc, Preparedness, Uncatchable, Thrill of the Crime, Initial Strike, and Bountiful Theft are all very popular because they are powerful and useful.

The reason why this traitline is bad is because Preparedness should be set by default, and because Steal should really be different ( for the reason mentioned above).

While the traits are good, it only reduces Steal CD, nothing else. The attributes you gain are neglectible, even for condition builds, unless you go DB spam, and still you go there for the traits ( especially the one giving 4 ini on healing skill), not for Steal CD reduction.

metaphorm.6904:

Mrbig.8019:

Now almost every set is viable, but there are still some lacks.

disagree. the disparity in usefulness and efficiency between the weapon sets is very large. i think alot of people agree with me on this. my opinion of the relative rankings of the sets for PvP is as follows (ranked from best to worst)

1) Sword+Pistol tied with Dagger+Dagger (both very effective melee sets)
2) Shortbow (nearly mandatory weapon for your weapon swap, incredibly high utility even if damage is only moderate)
3) huge gap. no other weapon set is close to the ones mentioned above
4) Dagger+Pistol (still a respectable 1on1 set but suffers badly from total lack of AoE)
5) Pistol+Dagger (can be useful for harrasment and defensive kiting, sometimes used by venom aura support builds, but generally tough to justify due to low damage)
6) Pistol + Pistol (should have good single target damage, but doesn’t because Unload is too inefficient for its initiative cost. like Dagger+Pistol, this also suffers greatly from total lack of AoE.)
7) Sword+Dagger (basically just dysfunctionally bad in PvP. low damage, broken dual skill)

This is only up to playstyles.

Personally i prefer D/P with a backstab build, since the stealth is less noticaeble. Moreover, it’s on demand, and creates great confusion.

S/D only lack is FS ( orrible skill, hands down), but with the right build not only it deals great damage, but can also totally lock you down with perma dazing.

The only one seriously lacking is P/P and we all agree on this.

I think that some changes to shadow shot and Flanking strike would totally solve the issues of D/P and S/D.

I have totally no idea about how to fix P/P tough.

I’m so confused by this thread. He says Steal is OP, then states that it’s “meh.”

He then says thief is balanced and viable, and then states ways to increase the viability.

Also, the reason P/P is pretty terrible right now is because of its terrible synergy with all of the skills. Vital Shot uses both Condition Damage and regular damage, while only doing a measly amount of both. Add the fact in that it’s relatively slow, and it’s just a pretty terrible basic attack for a ranged class. Then there’s Body Shot, which takes far longer to cast than it should. Then there’s Unload, which should be your main damage, but it only scales off Power/Precision/Crit rather than Condition Damage like Vital Shot does. This means you can’t really build one way and expect both to be good. Add in the fact that it’s purely single target and 3/5 of the skills are utility while your basic attack is weak damage, and you get a pretty UP weapon, especially when compared to the only other range option for thieves.

im hating how people in these threads are starting to call things gimmick as a blanket term for anything they dislike that they think is cheesy. its to the point where if you take this forums definition of gimmick, it could apply to nearly everything in this game.

heart quests gimmick

elites are a gimick

dungeons are a gimmick

endgames a gimmick

pvp is a gimmick

every freaking class have gimmick upon gimmick upon gimmick

trickery is useless: ok i stopped reading this. shame because i though it was a potentially good thread to criticize thief.

Is this a troll thread? I can’t decide, Trickery is bomb.