Guild Wars 2

Why not just remove thief altogether?

By playing thief, you are already playing at a disadvantage to at least 4 other professions whose very powerful builds are all capable of holding their own vs every profession and who can easily beat thieves…

Thief gets ignored for any updates at all this patch (though to be fair, the updates to each profession were mostly cosmetic this time)…except traps. Anti-stealth traps to disable, for 30 seconds, what thief basically needs in order to survive (or escape) most fights for any length of time…one of the absolute most important, integral, critical and necessary traits of thief…and they have to take an already limping profession and add more insult.

So…with all the nerfs and inconveniences constantly piled onto thief without any remediation in the form of correcting other massively imbalanced professions/builds (e.g. phant mesmer, bunk bm ranger)…why would most people bother playing thief anymore?

Certainly if the goal is to make stealth abilities weaker/useless, they are well on the way. And since stealth is so integral to thief design, it’s basically saying that they don’t really want thief to be able to do anything anymore. Eventually people will get tired of playing thief because it’s so inferior post-nerfs, because their build mechanic is being slammed hard by nerfs every time. Take away the fun, make thief less viable, make fewer people play it…then they can say that thief isn’t being played enough anymore to justify keeping it in the game…and then just remove it entirely.

Why not jump the gun and remove thief now? It’s already inevitable based on the process clearly in place…

We Don’t get ignored, we get stepped on and kittenin the face. That is something.

I honestly think we wouldn’t get this much hate if we were named something else. I mean cmon, thief? Really? Who likes thieves? (thiefs as the cool kidz say). Now if we were mercenaries, assassins,ninjas, shinobi, etc. we would see a 15% decrease in hate

For the love of God, I’ve said it many times already, and I wish they would just do it; make Stealth refresh instead of stack, and always apply Revealed after leaving it.
No more sneaking around or fleeing fights without retaliation.
Everything is fine now, and they can stop nerfing the hell out of us every single tiny little patch!

A mercy kill to this profession would be a nice reset so long as they don’t take away every kitten exo I JUST put on it. T~T

I can’t help but notice the same people as usual griping about the current state of the Thief … being unhappy with it.

Go look at other class forums … Ranger recently. Plenty of people like you about their own class … then magically, those who have skill and knowledge impart it on the community and it suddenly stops.

You can sit around griping about the state of your class or you can get off your butts and:

• practice
• discuss
• try new things
  • weapon sets
  • stat combinations
  • heals/utilities/elites
  • traits

What is sitting around griping about your thief class getting you? Nothing.
What has it ever gotten you? Nothing.

I wonder which option makes you do better as a thief.

Meridian.8730:

By playing thief, you are already playing at a disadvantage to at least 4 other professions whose very powerful builds are all capable of holding their own vs every profession and who can easily beat thieves…

Just curious what 4 classes do you have a disadvantage against?

Melee rangers can beat most theif, guardians, ele’s, and of course the number one 1v1 class, Mesmer.

And those classes can beat melee rangers too. What’s your point?

While GW2 isn’t as far enough away from being “build wars” as I’d like, most good builds have very few instances where there is a paper/scissor/rock scenario.

In particular, bunk ranger, phant OR shatter or other mesmer, d/d ele, bunk engi, retal guardian are all basically anti-thief machines. And necro is also very difficult…maybe not as impossible, but still very difficult.

How can people be so totally ignorant as to make statements like, “quit whining and get off your butt and try to improve.” Do you not realize that those of us in the situation of frustration have been trying, trying and trying to find good builds, techniques that work, etc., against certain professions/builds and the brick-wall that is imbalance in favor of the other professions is what we are facing? And the feeling of the imbalance results in frustration, not because we haven’t tried more than one or two things already, but because we have tried MANY things and still run into the same impassable barrier.

IOW…I have tried probably 40-50 different build angles, tweaks, etc., and many different fighting techniques, and still run into the same inevitable answer that certain profs have total superiority…and that we need a buff in order to have a fighting chance against them.

I am talking 100% about PvP like sPvP. Our damage is quite heavily nerfed there. However, in WvW there are plenty of professions I will avoid a 1v1 against because it’s a guaranteed loss…especially bunk ranger and any mesmers I see. They are impossible for a thief to beat when played well. Impossible is the word that lots and lots of experience has taught me means that it would take absolute perfection, no mistakes, some luck, a very fast internet connection, and some hyperadvanced mental function on the Thief player’s part to be able to actually EVER beat certain professions/builds.

Melee bunker rangers in WvW have limitations of their build like any other. A good p/d thief can be a handful I would imagine. Will they kill the bunker ranger fast? No. they can be worn down. No shortage of CnD targets for a P/D thief to use in WvW. A good S/D thief can do it too.

I’ve fought a lot of guardian these past days and I can tell you, thief is far from OP. First off, they have a lot of retal up, that hurts. Secondly, they have their whirling attack that hits like a truck. I’ve seen over 6k damage on me with it when I was CC’ed. That while I hit for 3k backstabs on him, with his protection and high toughness. A good guardian will NEVER lose against a thief unless he catches him off guard. Same with many other classes but this is the most apparant to me.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Melee bunker rangers in WvW have limitations of their build like any other. A good p/d thief can be a handful I would imagine. Will they kill the bunker ranger fast? No. they can be worn down. No shortage of CnD targets for a P/D thief to use in WvW. A good S/D thief can do it too.

a p/d thief is 100% dead if u catches a 30 sec reveal.

as guardian i have seen 6k hits backstaps on me when i have proctation up and im not a GC heck im 3,3k armor and 20k hp, come and say that my 300 or so retaliation on you hurts;)

Travlane.5948:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Melee bunker rangers in WvW have limitations of their build like any other. A good p/d thief can be a handful I would imagine. Will they kill the bunker ranger fast? No. they can be worn down. No shortage of CnD targets for a P/D thief to use in WvW. A good S/D thief can do it too.

a p/d thief is 100% dead if u catches a 30 sec reveal.

Ahh I see. So first one thief says “Some builds I can’t beat.” Once it’s pointed out there are builds that could counter unbeatable build… lay down the trap card. Well I suppose that’s a good way to completely evade the point I was trying to make. Fair enough.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Travlane.5948:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Melee bunker rangers in WvW have limitations of their build like any other. A good p/d thief can be a handful I would imagine. Will they kill the bunker ranger fast? No. they can be worn down. No shortage of CnD targets for a P/D thief to use in WvW. A good S/D thief can do it too.

a p/d thief is 100% dead if u catches a 30 sec reveal.

Ahh I see. So first one thief says “Some builds I can’t beat.” Once it’s pointed out there are builds that could counter unbeatable build… lay down the trap card. Well I suppose that’s a good way to completely evade the point I was trying to make. Fair enough.

..p/d is my favorite zerg build when i actually do end up zerging……its just as good for 1 v 2s and 1 v1s …only bad matchup is d/p…..and thats a draw for me. if u cant stealth for 30 secs….the ONLY thing a p/d thief can do is use skill 3 and hope the enemy is a warrior or a melee ranger

I understand. Perhaps the traps will be more of an issue than I expect for thieves. I think it’s too early to say right now. I just know from my perspective, I’m not going to be bothered with traps that costs badges, karma, and supply for roaming thieves. Why waste 15 badges for the hopes of getting 1 back from killing a thief? Just running the numbers seems like a horrible investment. Perhaps other people will do it, but I won’t. I will use them for keep/tower sweeps though.

well lemme put it this way. i think the WORST case scenario is when the ROAMERS use them. and theres plenty of them.

scenario: light fades in d/p thief is invis with 12 secs of stealth stacked……runs up to a poor unsuspecting thief cutting down a tree….plants an anti stealth next to him…..attacks with backstab…the thief rolls thru it….game over…… light fades out

AND CUT SCENE!

lol what do u think ?

Meridian.8730:

Why not just remove thief altogether?

By playing thief, you are already playing at a disadvantage to at least 4 other professions whose very powerful builds are all capable of holding their own vs every profession and who can easily beat thieves…

This is absolutely false. L2P, kid. So much misinformation. We can hold our own against every other profession easily, and I’m sorry for you if you see otherwise.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Once it’s pointed out there are builds that could counter unbeatable build… lay down the trap card. Well I suppose that’s a good way to completely evade the point I was trying to make. Fair enough.

Honestly the “trap card” is a viable argument when it comes to thieves. Stealth is literally half of all of our defensive traits and skills.

It’s the equivalent of dropping an anti-aegis card. Some classes will be minorly affected by it, but guardians would be majorly effected by it.

I understand WHY the traps exist. Veil zergs and stealthed portalbombs can make a joke of defensive preparations. However I feel that the implementation is lacking. Applying 30 seconds of revealed is extremely harsh if you’re a stealth thief, and almost ignorable if you’re running any other build. This isn’t like the confusion nerf. Confusion mesmers can still kill people, can still use the build. This trap effectively removes an entire trait line from play for thieves for 30 seconds, regardless of where they go.

A better implementation would have been to create an anti-stealth field around the trap once triggered than ticked 1s revealed every 1.5 seconds. This would be just as effective against those problem tactics.

On a larger scale though, I’m expecting to see more of these traps. I wouldn’t be suprised to see anti-speed traps, anti-boon traps, and all other manner of harsh defenses that will likely hit other classes just as hard. It only makes sense as it promotes combined force efforts and discourages homogenized and stale WvW tactics in favor of being creative and adapatable.

This is a good thing, but only as an end result. These traps really shouldn’t have been released piecemeal as the message that this sort of release sends is a pretty clear “We don’t want stealth thieves in WvW” whether it’s intended or not.

PopeUrban.2578:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Once it’s pointed out there are builds that could counter unbeatable build… lay down the trap card. Well I suppose that’s a good way to completely evade the point I was trying to make. Fair enough.

Honestly the “trap card” is a viable argument when it comes to thieves. Stealth is literally half of all of our defensive traits and skills.

It’s the equivalent of dropping an anti-aegis card. Some classes will be minorly affected by it, but guardians would be majorly effected by it.

I understand WHY the traps exist. Veil zergs and stealthed portalbombs can make a joke of defensive preparations. However I feel that the implementation is lacking. Applying 30 seconds of revealed is extremely harsh if you’re a stealth thief, and almost ignorable if you’re running any other build. This isn’t like the confusion nerf. Confusion mesmers can still kill people, can still use the build. This trap effectively removes an entire trait line from play for thieves for 30 seconds, regardless of where they go.

A better implementation would have been to create an anti-stealth field around the trap once triggered than ticked 1s revealed every 1.5 seconds. This would be just as effective against those problem tactics.

On a larger scale though, I’m expecting to see more of these traps. I wouldn’t be suprised to see anti-speed traps, anti-boon traps, and all other manner of harsh defenses that will likely hit other classes just as hard. It only makes sense as it promotes combined force efforts and discourages homogenized and stale WvW tactics in favor of being creative and adapatable.

This is a good thing, but only as an end result. These traps really shouldn’t have been released piecemeal as the message that this sort of release sends is a pretty clear “We don’t want stealth thieves in WvW” whether it’s intended or not.

Completely nullifying our entire Shadow Arts tree (and any points placed in it) is something that should never be countered with a “PvE item”.
In short, QFT’d.

I can’t believe this is the game that i payed for O.o….Instead of the guy who plays better wins, now its the guy who has the trap wins.Why don’t you make traps that have the effect of instant killing a thief, but just a thief not any other class i mean anything else would be unfair.
P.S I played my wvw thief for fun.It look’s like from now on i will play to lose to anyone who has this trap no matter if he plays better then i do or not.

PopeUrban.2578:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Once it’s pointed out there are builds that could counter unbeatable build… lay down the trap card. Well I suppose that’s a good way to completely evade the point I was trying to make. Fair enough.

Honestly the “trap card” is a viable argument when it comes to thieves. Stealth is literally half of all of our defensive traits and skills.

It’s the equivalent of dropping an anti-aegis card. Some classes will be minorly affected by it, but guardians would be majorly effected by it.

I understand WHY the traps exist. Veil zergs and stealthed portalbombs can make a joke of defensive preparations. However I feel that the implementation is lacking. Applying 30 seconds of revealed is extremely harsh if you’re a stealth thief, and almost ignorable if you’re running any other build. This isn’t like the confusion nerf. Confusion mesmers can still kill people, can still use the build. This trap effectively removes an entire trait line from play for thieves for 30 seconds, regardless of where they go.

A better implementation would have been to create an anti-stealth field around the trap once triggered than ticked 1s revealed every 1.5 seconds. This would be just as effective against those problem tactics.

On a larger scale though, I’m expecting to see more of these traps. I wouldn’t be suprised to see anti-speed traps, anti-boon traps, and all other manner of harsh defenses that will likely hit other classes just as hard. It only makes sense as it promotes combined force efforts and discourages homogenized and stale WvW tactics in favor of being creative and adapatable.

This is a good thing, but only as an end result. These traps really shouldn’t have been released piecemeal as the message that this sort of release sends is a pretty clear “We don’t want stealth thieves in WvW” whether it’s intended or not.

i like this idea. i think that the team that makes these changes DEF dont play thieves. and in theory its like yeah …might work out…lets go with it….next project up?

cufta.7309:

I can’t believe this is the game that i payed for O.o….Instead of the guy who plays better wins, now its the guy who has the trap wins.Why don’t you make traps that have the effect of instant killing a thief, but just a thief not any other class i mean anything else would be unfair.
P.S I played my wvw thief for fun.It look’s like from now on i will play to lose to anyone who has this trap no matter if he plays better then i do or not.

plays better when thiefs is/was easy mode given the heavy regen in stealth you have/had acces to, then comes the damage to mind and the fact that there is/was no efficnat counter to stealth othere then predtions and gut felling where the thief had to run around like a idiot and waiting to eighter gain hes hp(if thats what he stelathd for) and then just before the end trow in a heavy hit on the oppenet.
but sorry thief is/was easy mode and take/toke a lot less skills then to counter a thief
and yes i have played a thief before tho not a 80

Korsbaek.9803:

cufta.7309:

I can’t believe this is the game that i payed for O.o….Instead of the guy who plays better wins, now its the guy who has the trap wins.Why don’t you make traps that have the effect of instant killing a thief, but just a thief not any other class i mean anything else would be unfair.
P.S I played my wvw thief for fun.It look’s like from now on i will play to lose to anyone who has this trap no matter if he plays better then i do or not.

plays better when thiefs is/was easy mode given the heavy regen in stealth you have/had acces to, then comes the damage to mind and the fact that there is/was no efficnat counter to stealth othere then predtions and gut felling where the thief had to run around like a idiot and waiting to eighter gain hes hp(if thats what he stelathd for) and then just before the end trow in a heavy hit on the oppenet.
but sorry thief is/was easy mode and take/toke a lot less skills then to counter a thief
and yes i have played a thief before tho not a 80

Says all this plays a guard

Korsbaek.9803:

cufta.7309:

I can’t believe this is the game that i payed for O.o….Instead of the guy who plays better wins, now its the guy who has the trap wins.Why don’t you make traps that have the effect of instant killing a thief, but just a thief not any other class i mean anything else would be unfair.
P.S I played my wvw thief for fun.It look’s like from now on i will play to lose to anyone who has this trap no matter if he plays better then i do or not.

plays better when thiefs is/was easy mode given the heavy regen in stealth you have/had acces to, then comes the damage to mind and the fact that there is/was no efficnat counter to stealth othere then predtions and gut felling where the thief had to run around like a idiot and waiting to eighter gain hes hp(if thats what he stelathd for) and then just before the end trow in a heavy hit on the oppenet.
but sorry thief is/was easy mode and take/toke a lot less skills then to counter a thief
and yes i have played a thief before tho not a 80

sorry but u are totally wrong and its very very very obvious you do not play a thief. ok 2 things:

A) lets 1 v 1 …. my thief vs your thief….u know since “thief”= “easy mode” smarty lol
B) then lets 1 v 1 ….my thief v your thief….ill use a trap…..i bet i win with full health or close to it.

if u are right you will win or come close to it. i bet im at full health or close to it when i beat you both times? this would prove that playing thief is not easy mode and actually is one of the classes that requires more to play.

Korsbaek.9803:

cufta.7309:

I can’t believe this is the game that i payed for O.o….Instead of the guy who plays better wins, now its the guy who has the trap wins.Why don’t you make traps that have the effect of instant killing a thief, but just a thief not any other class i mean anything else would be unfair.
P.S I played my wvw thief for fun.It look’s like from now on i will play to lose to anyone who has this trap no matter if he plays better then i do or not.

plays better when thiefs is/was easy mode given the heavy regen in stealth you have/had acces to, then comes the damage to mind and the fact that there is/was no efficnat counter to stealth othere then predtions and gut felling where the thief had to run around like a idiot and waiting to eighter gain hes hp(if thats what he stelathd for) and then just before the end trow in a heavy hit on the oppenet.
but sorry thief is/was easy mode and take/toke a lot less skills then to counter a thief
and yes i have played a thief before tho not a 80

If you think that thef is “easy” mode just because of stealth then you are clearly wrong.Even with stealth and if you ever played thief you should know folowing:
1.you run out of initiative you are dead
2.you don’t time your skills you are dead
3.you don’t position your character right you are dead
4.you get kicked out of shadow refugee pretty much dead
Stealth was the only thing that could keep a thief from dieing in first 5 seconds of the fight.

Really, threads like these make me laugh. Have you seen the forums for other classes? In every class (well, rarely for guards), there is a topic that comes up week after week after week: “How do you beat a thief?”

Even the best BM rangers (which seems to have been brought up several times here) reached a consensus: they either run and don’t bother with thieves with even the slightest amount of skill OR they stay and fight a long battle that would eventually go the thief’s way (because of the thief’s unlimited reset potentials).

Even this dreaded trap patch which most thieves argue as a nerf directly aimed at them just cements the idea that the thief class is indeed anet’s Golden Child. I mean, this is the only class nerf that I’m aware of that will make other classes spend something on. What a nerf!

So my answer to this question is the same answer that thief players put in all the threads complaining about thieves: L2P

Meridian.8730:

Why not just remove thief altogether?

They intend to, these supply traps are a step to justify the coming actions:

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Hi again everyone,

I will say we want there to be play with the traps, but placing the traps while in stealth has very little counter to it, so we will be evaluating whether we would like to change this implementation. Thanks to everyone for you feedback and concerns.

Hugh

I doubt they hadn’t seen the opportunities stealth offers in deploying these traps and I don’t think they’ll change the traps …

By playing thief, you are already playing at a disadvantage to at least 4 other professions whose very powerful builds are all capable of holding their own vs every profession and who can easily beat thieves…

Master of Timespace.2548:

By playing thief, you are already playing at a disadvantage to at least 4 other professions whose very powerful builds are all capable of holding their own vs every profession and who can easily beat thieves…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

Thats my reaction to Thieves on my bunker Ranger.

Thats my reaction to Thieves on my bunker Ranger.

I know the feeling. I play bunker thief.

Korsbaek.9803:

as guardian i have seen 6k hits backstaps on me when i have proctation up and im not a GC heck im 3,3k armor and 20k hp, come and say that my 300 or so retaliation on you hurts;)

Why, from another fellow guardian, would you stack PVT and then put yourself in a situation where you get backstabbed in the back by a thief? o_O

Sorry, that kind of guardian build deserves to lose to a thief.

And yes, I can attest to the fact that I can whirl for 4-5 -6kon thieves while they backstab, well more like frontstab because I tend to do an okay job of avoiding backstabs, on me for 3k.

This is post patch, btw.

Edit:6k backstab on a 3.3k armor guardian with protection up. Did not see the bolded. Do you know how circumstantial that is? He has to build up bloodlust stacks, eat damage food, build completely glass, and run utilities that are all offensive. So if he fails, he is dead meat, unless you are a lot worse than him in terms of skill…or unless you run PVT, which you do, which is terrible.