The role of Thieves, and the lack there-of.
you’re just wrong about stealth needing a rework. there is not and should not be permanent stealth in this game. it was the correct design decision.
if you are looking for a role in WvW try ranged support with a Shortbow, perimeter patrol (picking off stragglers), or just doing what every character can do and run supplies or use siege equipment. character class is much less important in WvW than in other aspects of the game.
I like my role in WvW as a thief. I personally have a blast stealthily setting a shadow trap or trip wire in front of an enemies gate portal and murdering them as they think they have reached safety.
Or running in stealth past the last few players/guards on the way to a fort lord and haste/pistol whip ganking him as the rest of my team shows up behind me for easy clean up.
Night crawler bamf builds are amazing for terrorizing supply lines and camps.
There are a ton of sneaky thief-y things to do. And I have more fun doing them and feel like I am contributing more in the long run than I do as 1 of the 10 elementalists or rangers that sits on a wall randomly pelting the zerg outside.
I think the issue here is more that the thief role just isn’t the one you want it to be.
The Kismet
Dragonbrand
Dragonbrand
Scorpion wire+people on edge of a wall=win
and shortbow/area stealth always works, try to shoot clusterbombs in AoE fields to give massive boons
Elona is Love, Elona is life.
Stealth does not need a rework. Being able to be invisible to others 100% of the time is absurd. Even in game terms. If that was possible for a measly thief, how come all the mages and illusionists could not do it and just turn themselves invisible? You want an old mechanic that is a vestige of the past. How come thieves should get this major advantage other others? Stealth is a combat mechanic, both mechanic-wise and games logic wise. It adds up to your character being evasive and deceptive – harder to hit.
I have a thief, yes. And i would not want to have a perma stealth. If you can’t find a role for yourself in WvW, that’s YOUR problem, not games.
you’re just wrong about stealth needing a rework. there is not and should not be permanent stealth in this game. it was the correct design decision.
if you are looking for a role in WvW try ranged support with a Shortbow, perimeter patrol (picking off stragglers), or just doing what every character can do and run supplies or use siege equipment. character class is much less important in WvW than in other aspects of the game.
Even I never said there should be an option for permanent stealth, however this goes back to my point about people being legitimately afraid of what was conceived in other games. You not only won’t entertain the idea of an intermediate-length stealth, you automatically assume that everyone wants the perma-stealth of WoW. If you’d actually read my idea for an additional stealth mechanic, you might have seen that.
The role of a shortbow Thief in WvW is not only something that EVERY PROFESSION CAN DO (again; we don’t have a role for thieves), we do it the worst. Our shortbow only has a range of 900, and in order to provide that support on defending towers or assaulting them, you quite literally shoot at your feet or shoot from their feet in order to reach them. Perimeter patrol, and as you mentioned – supply running (something everyone can do, your words) are poor excuses for a “role” that a Thief should have in ANY setting, let alone a battle field.
Stealth is a gimmick, it lasts for a few seconds, only to provide us with a single-use skill that serves only to make up for the fighting we missed WHILE in stealth. It doesn’t provide any sense of surprise, or even give you the upper-hand, which you should rightfully have if you’re invisible and about to perform a surprise attack! At no point in 1v1 combat does the Thief have a particular advantage due to stealth that isn’t outdone by competing class mechanics and skill variety – two things we lack.
Thieves stealth is actually overpowered, there’s no counter to it and shadow refuge actually grants 6 seconds of stealth untraited. You cannot stomp stealthed players, you can resurrect in stealth. The only place that I could see an improvement for thieves is what they can bring to dungeons, but other than that I feel like there’s certain builds that are awesome, where others are still lacking.
Thieves are great gankers in WvWvW and great scouters because they move very quickly. They can pick enemies off of walls or pull people out of a zerg to crush one at a time. They can bring shadow refuge to res people somewhat safely. I like sitting at the jumping puzzles of maps waiting for people to kill or pull off of rocks to their deaths.
Kitty Sparkle of the Kitty Legion [KL] | Jade Quarry
Scorpion wire+people on edge of a wall=win
and shortbow/area stealth always works, try to shoot clusterbombs in AoE fields to give massive boons
This is the only real utility I’ve found myself being able to bring to the field. Even then it’s not reliable. Why can’t you pull someone over a ledge? Why does it only work when the enemy has no obstructions in front of them? If I hooked you through the chest with my scorpion wire, and you’re standing in front of knee-high bricks, that should make it EVEN EASIER to pull you over.
Thieves stealth is actually overpowered, there’s no counter to it and shadow refuge actually grants 6 seconds of stealth untraited. You cannot stomp stealthed players, you can resurrect in stealth. The only place that I could see an improvement for thieves is what they can bring to dungeons, but other than that I feel like there’s certain builds that are awesome, where others are still lacking.
Thieves are great gankers in WvWvW and great scouters because they move very quickly. They can pick enemies off of walls or pull people out of a zerg to crush one at a time. They can bring shadow refuge to res people somewhat safely. I like sitting at the jumping puzzles of maps waiting for people to kill or pull off of rocks to their deaths.
No counter to stealth? You’ve gotta be kidding me. Every class EXCEPT Thief has access to a wide array of AoE’s, which don’t care if you’re stealthed. Not only that, but the stealth only lasts for 2-5 seconds. Half the time when you use it, the enemy either shuffles around in circles to prevent you from landing an effective backstab, or they just move out of the way (it’s not like you go more than 33% faster while you’re in it). It’s almost humorous how easy it is in concept and practice, for an enemy to see me stealth and go “lol gonna move back a few feet now” completely preventing any advantage from stealth.
We lack any sort of power/presence on our own. You could only stomp that guy you s-wired out of his zerg because you also have a zerg with you to do all the killing work.
scorpion wire is amazing. poison/cluster combo for aoe weakness is amazing (halves affected targets’ damage). Stealth combo fields are ok. Smoke screen is fantastic. Finally, rogues move faster than ANY OTHER CLASS. Hands down. 25% movement at all times + swiftness on evade + shortbow teleport. How can you say that thieves don’t have a unique role to play in wvw?
Honestly the only problem with thief is the lack of what is supposed to be its greatest asset: mobility. Specifically this is a problem with shadowsteps. They get stuck on EVERYTHING now. Back in early beta you could use them to get all over the place and that really made the thief feel special. But now you have engineers and mesmers able to get all over the place and the thief meanwhile gets stuck on a little pebble.
(edited by bwillb.2165)
scorpion wire is amazing. poison/cluster combo for aoe weakness is amazing (halves affected targets’ damage). Stealth combo fields are ok. Smoke screen is fantastic. Finally, rogues move faster than ANY OTHER CLASS. Hands down. 25% movement at all times + swiftness on evade + shortbow teleport. How can you say that thieves don’t have a unique role to play in wvw?
I forgot, we have a job as mail carrier in wuvwuv. I can kill people with my blinding speed. I can run around a tower so fast that I vacuum all the air out of the fortress and suffocate the lord.
I tend to spend my time picking off stragglers, getting into melee brawls when it seems remotely viable, and spamming shortbow blast finishers into ally combo fields which is actually really helpful if you do it in a water or fire field. Rangers with healing spring are my best friends. I’m also pretty much completely impossible to kill, and end up dying maybe once every 3 hours when I do something dumb even though I primarily play melee and tend to attack anyone on the edges of an enemy zerg. It’s just so easy to get away as a thief.
We aren’t the greatest WvW class in the world, but we’re okay.
- You can trait to blind people when entering stealth, that puts you at an advantage.
- You can trait to move faster in stealth.
- You can trait to get a 100% crit chance coming out of stealth That trait and assassins signet + heartseeker is plus TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY percent damage. …out of stealth.
- You can trait to heal while in stealth, along with shadow refuge this is akin to having a second healing skill. Which puts you at an advantage.
- You can trait to regain initiative in stealth which, allowing instance access to weapon skills while a target’s are probably still in cool down. This is an advantage.
- Weapon skills can be completely safe on whiff by triggering stealth + granting stealth bonuses. See: cloak & dagger for a hit confirmed guaranteed crit on heartseeker or pistol whip. Why? Because it put you in stealth.
At this point I’m just pretty sure you haven’t spent any time getting familiar with the class and finding it’s strengths and utilities and are just mad it doesn’t work the way you want. So it’s impossible for you to see any of the advantages or possibilities. They are there. And most people in WvW and sPvP alike are of the opinion thief stealth and trait combinations are too strong.
Even the thief players can sometimes admit the stuff we can do to people just isnt right.
Edit: Also, I can survive WvW encounters I might otherwise lose because I can turn freaking invisible. If you can’t escape combat using stealth, you are doing it wrong. Plain and simple. If you ARE escaping combat and situations where other classes would otherwise be stomped…congratulations, you saved yourself having to do the ten minute run of shame back from your base. And that also is a pretty kitten big advantage.
The Kismet
Dragonbrand
Dragonbrand
(edited by AcidicVision.5498)
No counter to stealth? You’ve gotta be kidding me. Every class EXCEPT Thief has access to a wide array of AoE’s, which don’t care if you’re stealthed. Not only that, but the stealth only lasts for 2-5 seconds. Half the time when you use it, the enemy either shuffles around in circles to prevent you from landing an effective backstab, or they just move out of the way (it’s not like you go more than 33% faster while you’re in it). It’s almost humorous how easy it is in concept and practice, for an enemy to see me stealth and go “lol gonna move back a few feet now” completely preventing any advantage from stealth.
We lack any sort of power/presence on our own. You could only stomp that guy you s-wired out of his zerg because you also have a zerg with you to do all the killing work.
At this point I think you’re undergeared or underleveled, in sPvP and WvW stealth is probably the most broken and overpowered ability we have, and our burst is astounding. I would suggest you rebuild and retry your approach to thief, instead of trying to fix it into your vision of how it should be played.
Kitty Sparkle of the Kitty Legion [KL] | Jade Quarry
sPvP and WvW stealth is probably the most broken and overpowered ability we have, and our burst is astounding.
Steah is not OP in any way, other than helping you run. I belevie someone talked about how regen in stealth helped, but that amount is (correct me if they changed it in the last 2 days) somewhere around 213 per tick. Negligible, which is balanced with the other classes’ regen, so that’s not an issue. While we may have a lot of traits for stealth and numerous ways to enter it, I think the biggest bonus I’ve seen is that 100% crit opener (which is pretty nice when the enemy’s health is low) and gaining some initiative. And you may say we have burst, but compared to other classes, our burst isn’t burst, and ours is done by using all of our utilities at once, then spamming Heartseeker until they die. The only time I’ve found a reason to use anything other than that is when I see 3 people in a row (usually just NPC summons) and Death Blossom has a use, or when I want to use Cloak and Dagger to get some more initiative and slow down the fight a little for CDs. While I don’t think stealth needs an overhaul, it does need a little tweaking to help balance it out, and (personally) I’d like to have reasons to use all my skills other than once every 5 min, and not have to rely on my CDs to get anything done.
No counter to stealth? You’ve gotta be kidding me. Every class EXCEPT Thief has access to a wide array of AoE’s, which don’t care if you’re stealthed. Not only that, but the stealth only lasts for 2-5 seconds. Half the time when you use it, the enemy either shuffles around in circles to prevent you from landing an effective backstab, or they just move out of the way (it’s not like you go more than 33% faster while you’re in it). It’s almost humorous how easy it is in concept and practice, for an enemy to see me stealth and go “lol gonna move back a few feet now” completely preventing any advantage from stealth.
Depending on the build stealth can be very difficult to deal with. Firstly, shuffling around is no guarantee that you wont be backstabbed. You are basically just hoping and making it a bit harder for the thief, but I’d hardly call it an effective “counter”. Just rolling the dice and hoping thief screws up. Secondly, there’s a trait that gives you 100% crit chance from stealth. It doesn’t matter what shuffling around ppl do, a crit heartseeker will hit them for something they dont like. Thirdly, even without backstabs, stealth provides a break to regen initiative and begin a new burst.
Easiest way to break stealth is through conditions, sure. But its quite potent as it is imo.
Yeah, when I think of a thief I think of being able to be stealthed for longer periods of time, not individual skills that stealth me for 3-5 seconds. I run condition damage thief just because of that, lol.
-Alejandro
level 80+~57 thief
Brotherhood of the Butterfly
Voted “most likely to die/fail” by peers
Voted “most likely to die/fail” by peers
- You can trait to blind people when entering stealth, that puts you at an advantage.
- You can trait to move faster in stealth.
- You can trait to get a 100% crit chance coming out of stealth That trait and assassins signet + heartseeker is plus TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY percent damage. …out of stealth.
- You can trait to heal while in stealth, along with shadow refuge this is akin to having a second healing skill. Which puts you at an advantage.
- You can trait to regain initiative in stealth which, allowing instance access to weapon skills while a target’s are probably still in cool down. This is an advantage.
- Weapon skills can be completely safe on whiff by triggering stealth + granting stealth bonuses. See: cloak & dagger for a hit confirmed guaranteed crit on heartseeker or pistol whip. Why? Because it put you in stealth.At this point I’m just pretty sure you haven’t spent any time getting familiar with the class and finding it’s strengths and utilities and are just mad it doesn’t work the way you want. So it’s impossible for you to see any of the advantages or possibilities. They are there. And most people in WvW and sPvP alike are of the opinion thief stealth and trait combinations are too strong.
Even the thief players can sometimes admit the stuff we can do to people just isnt right.
Edit: Also, I can survive WvW encounters I might otherwise lose because I can turn freaking invisible. If you can’t escape combat using stealth, you are doing it wrong. Plain and simple. If you ARE escaping combat and situations where other classes would otherwise be stomped…congratulations, you saved yourself having to do the ten minute run of shame back from your base. And that also is a pretty kitten big advantage.
According to you, and most everyone else in this thread; the Thief is supposed to either spam clusterbombs into AoE’s and call themselves “support”, or they are supposed to “chase down stragglers”. Thank you again for enlightening me on the amazing roles that Thieves play in WvW.
Allow me to dissect the one build you’ve thrown up here.
> Trait to move faster in stealth
> Trait for blinding stealth
> Trait for 100% crit rate out of stealth
> Trait for healing while in stealth
> Use Shadow Refuge (which is by far NOT akin to a secondary healing skill)
> Use Assassins Signet (passive: power, active: 150% damage)
This is pretty accurate to the build you’ve provided
So, you’ve basically created a 1-hit build that depends upon the player doing 1 attack (which isn’t backstab but heartseeker?) while in stealth, amplified by sin signet and 100% crit rate. You’ll be doing roughly (30% crit damage + 150% for sin signet) 180% more damage with 1 heartseeker.
Congratulations, you just gave yourself the ‘visible’ debuff, and traited entirely so you could use ONE SKILL that will do realistically about 2K damage (effectively 1/12th of the HP of a non-glass-cannon’s health).
At this point I’m sure that every fight you’ve ever been involved with in WvW has been with a cadre of other players, whom you’ve mistakenly imposed their own damage numbers to your own, and are now under the assumption that all their damage and power was actually yours.
I, however, can safely say that I’ve spent all of BWE2/3, every stress test in between, and the first two weeks of launch, playing the Thief, playing them in WvW, playing them in PvE, playing them in SPvP. I have spent a considerable amount of time on the Thief, trying out every build from a quickness + unload pistol build, to the stealth-based and crit-based D/D, and even at one point attempted to specialize in the functionality-grab-bag that is shortbow combat.
I would de-emphasize the stealth playstyle more if you hadn’t already done enough by providing what would be an otherwise fully-loaded one-shot damage build if not for your lack of traiting into Mug. The build is not only ineffective at 1v1 combat, it will reliably get yourkitten destroyed in a group setting, and not just because you haven’t mentioned if you’d be using withdraw/roll for initiative.
The thieves specialties, as I’ve stated in other ways, are mobility and evasiveness. Two functions that are almost completely bypassed and moot if you decide to subjugate them both with gimmick-stealth. Running fast doesn’t count for squat when every other class can out range, out-AoE, out-damage, and out-heal/defend your every move. That is the reality we face as Thieves, and to think so otherwise is to be mistaken about the viability of depending on a 2-5 second stealth, and the underestimation of the entry-level skill requirement to play any other class.
You aren’t that clever.
You aren’t that strong.
They however, don’t need to be that clever to counter you.
They are, in a balanced way – stronger than you.
Thank you.
(edited by LoreChief.8391)
I’ve played WvW with a Thief for a while now. There are lots of things I can do which no other profession can do. My mobility is so high I’m able to get to areas the quickest, check and look around and inform my team about the situation. If spotted, I can move so fast they won’t even bother chasing me. It once took around 20 people to get me down after running across the map for fun. You can use Smoke Screen and Cluster Bomb to combo up to around 10s of stealth to everyone around you, together with your heal that’s around 13s of stealth, enough to sneak past a zerg thats chasing you.
You can also catch up with runaways so quickly because of your awesome mobility. Escape from situations because of your awesome mobility. Seriously, I’d rather play Thief in WvW than anything else. They fit my playstyle perfectly.
Gandara [Eden]
Thieves in the game have a pretty good set of roles. In PvE, we are high DPS with high mobility making it likely we’ll live through most fights (unless you get brave aka stupid). In PvP, there is likely no better class at one on one fighting. This means if you catch people alone in sPvP (happens all the time) or wander the edges of the zerg in WvW, you should be creating quite a bit of chaos. And oh, ya, with thief mobility and steatlh, it’s really easy to get out of trouble once the enemy zerg realizes you’re picking them off.
Speaking of stealth, add me to the list of people opposed to perma-stealth, and keep in mind I play the rogue-ish character as my main in every single MMO I’ve ever played.
Stealth in GW2 does a few things, and does them amazingly well.
First, it sets up your backstab which is a pretty nasty hit. In PvE, this gives you a headstart. In PvP, it’s a pretty significant psychological trick that can often cause your opponent to panic. Nothing like having someone you didn’t see take 25% or so of your life at the same time they appear.
It allows you to control the pacing of a fight, ie. you can duck in and out of stealth fairly often. Combine that with dodging and all our skills that have dodges built in, and unless your opponent gets lucky, they’re not going to be able to get any of their big hits in on you.
It’s awesome escapability. Fight starts going bad? Stealth, dodge, and run. Heck, we have a great movement speed signet if you really want to be able to get out of trouble (or alternatively, if you want to chase down people in PvP who are trying to escape).
What stealth does not do is allow you to be stupid. You have zero business leading the zerg against the enemy. You also cannot try to sneak into the middle of the zerg looking for squishy finger wagglers. You cannot wait until the very last second to pop stealth versus AoE or sustained attack opponents (like the ranger machine gun arrows). In short, it’s not some unbeatable ubermechanic that makes thieves better than any other class.
What it is, is a good tool to help thieves do what they do best. Kill opponents while limiting said opponents ability to fight back.
Hey I just met you – And this is crazy –
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?
I’ve played WvW with a Thief for a while now. There are lots of things I can do which no other profession can do. My mobility is so high I’m able to get to areas the quickest, check and look around and inform my team about the situation. If spotted, I can move so fast they won’t even bother chasing me. It once took around 20 people to get me down after running across the map for fun. You can use Smoke Screen and Cluster Bomb to combo up to around 10s of stealth to everyone around you, together with your heal that’s around 13s of stealth, enough to sneak past a zerg thats chasing you.
You can also catch up with runaways so quickly because of your awesome mobility. Escape from situations because of your awesome mobility. Seriously, I’d rather play Thief in WvW than anything else. They fit my playstyle perfectly.
You cannot combo stealths. We have a debuff called visible, which gives us a period of time where we cannot re-enter stealth. You will likely use a stealth that will last for about 5 seconds, which is not enough time to sneak just yourself past the zerg, let alone a group.
p.s. To the OP:
Before you poo-poo my ideas on the thief, keep in mind I’m a level 80 thief and have yet to lose a one on one fight in either sPvP or WvW. I’m sure it’ll happen eventually (in fact, I have an idea for an elementalist build that should be able to completely counter thief mobility), but so far, so good.
More importantly, so far, so much fun.
Hey I just met you – And this is crazy –
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?
I loved my thief ever since i realized I cant go in head first. Everything changed that day.
You cannot combo stealths. We have a debuff called visible, which gives us a period of time where we cannot re-enter stealth. You will likely use a stealth that will last for about 5 seconds, which is not enough time to sneak just yourself past the zerg, let alone a group.
Yes, you can combo stealth, shadow refuge, if not broken, gives six seconds of stealth, combine that with shadow trap and your stealth heal, gives 14 seconds of stealth. You’re using your credentials of how much you have played the thief to try to justify your points. I’ve been playing the thief for about 300 hours now, and I’m here trying to tell you that the thief may have weaknesses, but it’s not in PvP. You’re doomsaying this profession, even though there are several thieves in here trying to tell you that a different approach is required. You don’t need to go a trickshot build to be fine, in fact, I’ll link you my gameplay and build I shared in a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ainrQUZqGs
Kitty Sparkle of the Kitty Legion [KL] | Jade Quarry
p.s. To the OP:
Before you poo-poo my ideas on the thief, keep in mind I’m a level 80 thief and have yet to lose a one on one fight in either sPvP or WvW. I’m sure it’ll happen eventually (in fact, I have an idea for an elementalist build that should be able to completely counter thief mobility), but so far, so good.
More importantly, so far, so much fun.
At this point in the game, being level 80 is not a certification of anything. You can hit 80 in PvE significantly faster than you could in WvW. SPvP clearly doesn’t apply as you can’t level there. That being said, you being level 80 means you’ve spent far more time in PvE where the skill requirement is substantially less than WvW.
Here’s the thing about 1v1 fights – they don’t mean squat in WvW, and they mean next-to-nothing in SPvP. 1v1’s don’t win towers, they don’t defend towers. In SPvP, they don’t get that many points for your team, and they don’t defend control points.
1v1’s are a great way of comparing the abilities of two opposing players, but running into them in WvW is restricted to “catching stragglers”, which you often do as a small assault pack.
I agree on your point about what stealth does amazingly well – ONLY under the condition that it’s able to be pulled off. When you start fighting against more competent players (which there are more and more of by the day), you won’t be able to simply land a backstab on them – at least not in a way that it’ll count for much. I speak from experience when I say that players can easily slink out of combat with you when you go into stealth. Even when I play against other stealth characters, it takes only a split second for me to see someone stealth, and withdraw out of distance from them.
You cannot determine the effectiveness of a Thief based entirely on the ineptitude of your enemy. If you do, you’ll find with certainty that you are really strong… when fighting noobs, and nothing more.
You cannot combo stealths. We have a debuff called visible, which gives us a period of time where we cannot re-enter stealth. You will likely use a stealth that will last for about 5 seconds, which is not enough time to sneak just yourself past the zerg, let alone a group.
When I say “combo stealth”, it is the stealth duration that gets comboed up. This means, after the 5-6 shots of cluster bomb onto the smoke screen, you will have a total of 10 seconds of stealth in one go.
That debuff only occurs if you get detected, aka leave stealth. As in, you go into stealth, then get out of stealth you get the debuff. If you manage to combo quick enough before your enemy approaches you, you will succeed. I know because I’ve done it before in WvW, and it did work. I use it all the time now to get through even PvE areas.
Gandara [Eden]
You cannot combo stealths. We have a debuff called visible, which gives us a period of time where we cannot re-enter stealth. You will likely use a stealth that will last for about 5 seconds, which is not enough time to sneak just yourself past the zerg, let alone a group.
Yes, you can combo stealth, shadow refuge, if not broken, gives six seconds of stealth, combine that with shadow trap and your stealth heal, gives 14 seconds of stealth. You’re using your credentials of how much you have played the thief to try to justify your points. I’ve been playing the thief for about 300 hours now, and I’m here trying to tell you that the thief may have weaknesses, but it’s not in PvP. You’re doomsaying this profession, even though there are several thieves in here trying to tell you that a different approach is required. You don’t need to go a trickshot build to be fine, in fact, I’ll link you my gameplay and build I shared in a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ainrQUZqGs
Okay even in your own video you’ve proven your point wrong. It’s either that or you don’t know what it means to “combo stealth”. If you use shadow refuge, you stealth for 6 seconds, and then you unstealth, have a period of “revealed” (sorry I was calling it “visible” earlier), and after that wears off, you can go into stealth again – that is not combo’ing stealth though.
You cannot have 14 continuous seconds of stealth, as you’ll always go through the revealed debuff after the duration of each individual stealth wears off.
The only reason I even mentioned my credentials on Thief is because AcidicVision decided to make the assumption that “I haven’t any time getting familiar with the profession”. It may have just been reflexive trolling on his part, but to turn a discussion about the viability of a play-style on it’s ear, so that you can instead go after an individual is crass and ornery.
this guy wants hits on his blog. that’s all this thread is.
Here’s the thing about 1v1 fights – they don’t mean squat in WvW, and they mean next-to-nothing in SPvP. 1v1’s don’t win towers, they don’t defend towers. In SPvP, they don’t get that many points for your team, and they don’t defend control points.
1v1’s are a great way of comparing the abilities of two opposing players, but running into them in WvW is restricted to “catching stragglers”, which you often do as a small assault pack.
1v1s happen all the time in tourney sPvP. As a thief I usually go to the long point and assault whoever is standing at that point, even if somebody comes to support, neutralizing a point is still a big help in tourneys. Also, at level 80 with full gear, it means a lot because the value of 5 coordinated 80s is going to win a zerg filled with 20 level 1s.
Kitty Sparkle of the Kitty Legion [KL] | Jade Quarry
Man I disagree with almost all points of your supposed “rework”. I find stealth, as it is, insanely powerful and versatile. It can be traited for multiple purposes (dps boost, aoe heal, etc) and is generally pretty OP right now in WvWvW.
I love my thief the way it is, although I will only say it would be nice to have one more weapon choice, just to mix things up a bit.
Blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah
Lol, you tried to put all those things in to one build? This explains everything.
I pointed out the advantages you can gain from stealth. You pick the few that are effective for your play style. You don’t try to do EVERYTHING.
Yes you can spec to rely completely on heart-seeker and pistol whip, if you want to strike hard, fast and get out. 2k damage? I see you have done your home work. Try about 16k+ damage in less than 3 seconds.
If you dont believe thats possible we can sync up in sPvP any time and ill be glad to show you. You will never see me. When I hit you, you wont be able to do a thing. You will be dead and stomped before the stun duration would have even expired and by the time you spin your camera around to see where I went, i’ll be gone.
Thats a thief. No other class can do that.
In WvW those types of builds are more difficult. There is a risk reward relationship. Its harder to stay alive during a siege, but once the gates are broken you can pretty much guarantee a gank on the lord.
Once again, this all comes down to the player and not the class. At this point I think Thief just may not be your forte. Maybe you should try something else.
The Kismet
Dragonbrand
Dragonbrand
yeah i agree with AcidicVision. sounds to me like the OP just made a mistake at the character select screen. just shut up and reroll if you don’t like playing your Thief.
Couple of things I’ve done as a thief in WvW:
1. Scorpion wire. Good against walls, good against fleeing guys, good when two sides are skirmishing and not willing to charge yet. Probably everyone here knows this.
2. Shadow refuge. Oh lord shadow refuge. This is probably the bestkittenthing a thief can do. I spent about an hour or so inside an enemy keep after it fell, just by putting up shadow refuge and not moving out of the area circle while outside the aggro radius of NPCs. Its also prettykittengood for doing stealth revives. Drop it on downed players for stealth revives. Probably the best in-combat revive, which in WvW is extremely valuable.
3. Extreme mobility. Good use of the 25% passive movement speed increase, shadow step and infiltrator’s arrow basically means you will rarely ever be caught by chasers. This means you can scout positions (e.g. enemy trebuchets), or lure players back to your horde or draw them out of position.
4. The 2nd skill for the shortbow arcs VERY high. Its basically possible to hit people on top of walls with good timing of the secondary detonation. I’ve downed several players like that before. On defense, its also rather effective against the inevitable mob around the ram. Exploit all the various combo fields that will be set up with your blast finisher.
5. Of course, damage. Step into combat with shadow step or steal, deal damage, step out. Blast away with dual pistols. Sometimes, you don’t even need to bother finishing off downed players, just hit them with standard attacks until they die. As a thief, you can do this much faster than most other players thanks to the initiative bar. Run with a group to minimize attention on you, then jump in and rack up the damage count. If you’re downed, you’ve got a higher chance of survival and rally than any other class, just teleport towards a teammate hanging back (usually a ranger or elementalist).
So yeah, I disagree with this whole “lack of role” thing. I’ve got plenty of roles I can slot to in WvW.
Edit: Kittens! Hahahaha
Stealth will always be broken imo. ANET has tried so hard to limit it, but its still just too good sometimes. If i can square off against a veteran mob 1v1 and hardly get touched thats just not right rofl.
One, stealth causing blind is just broken ahaha. You can basically keep someone perma blinded while you go in and out of stealth all day. Then there’s caltrops on dodge. Not only can i dodge roll like everyone else, but i spread freakin caltrops everywhere that cause cripple and bleed dmg. Lol. Backstabs? Dont need em. Heartseeker? Don’t need it. Sneak attack with gun mainhand? Yes please. Coming out of stealth is more bleed stacks. Joy. But wait, there’s more. Venom? Check. I’ll stack poison while im at it. But wait, there’s more! What a handy trait, cause weakness for 3 sec whenever I poison. Gee, so handy.
So now we have perma blind, poison, bleed stacks, vulnerability (from cloak and dagger), and weakness. Thats…5 conditions you can easily keep up at all times. Oh wait I forgot the cripple from caltrops, thats 6. Its like a sick game of peekaboo where all someone can do is just die while you pop in and out of stealth. The visibility debuff only lasts about as long as it takes to dodge roll or get off 2 shots with a gun (which adds more bleed stacks, or spreads more caltrops).
The only way to win is heavy CC/conditions, but thats hard to do when a thief is only visible for a few seconds at a time. And unfortunately, time is not your friend when dealing with a condition thief. He can play peekaboo all day while you flop like a fish.
But what if you see the thief first? Congrats! Except steal can give stealth AND poison, which means it doesn’t really matter anymore. Kill him with dots? Brilliant! Minus the fact that shadow refuge cures burn, poison, and bleed. Oh…and it gives stealth too.
Well kitten.
EDIT: Not even touching the fact that you can set a trap on someone in stealth, which forces it to trigger. So we can set up clones like mesmers that hit like phantasms, and spam blind in some cases. From stealth. Seriously, im expecting some nerfs once ppl start to figure out heartseeker spam is noob.
(edited by amradio.2513)
i’d like to hesitantly point out that a thief is a thief, not an assassin. and it amazes me that people aren’t interested in anything except high dps stealth-backstab concepts with thieves in mmos.
i like the thief for gw2 for its thug mentality. it’s not a ninja. it’s a streetbrawling thug. which, technically, is closer to what a thief in a fantasy setting would be like. you get a little stealth to hint at possible trickery and speed because you’d be used to running away.
i kind of agree the steal mechanic could be more exciting, but given the amount of screams if thieves could steal random gear from your bags, it’s a creative middle-ground that anet came up with. one which is quite interesting and while i hear a lot of complaints about the random nature, i’d like to point out that if you’re picking someone’s wallet, you’re not sure what you’ll get either. could be moths. could be a jackpot. so, delving into someone else’s pouches might get you something good, or something useless.
still, i wouldn’t personally mind seeing a steal coin skill, even for a copper or two. just for the hell of it. sometimes those “hell of it” skills are the real flavour of an mmo. it shouldn’t all be about which “build” gives the best “dps” and leaving it at that. it should be about how you want to play the character for your own fun and amusement. i personally believe if you want to play a certain way, your way will always be viable to a degree.
that randomness is quite fun, too. reminds me of the best times you can have playing games like warhammer if you play orcs or skaven. you can have some seriously op abilities, but they’re so random they only work once in a blue moon. but when they do, oh the memories!
for me, the thief should be more support anyway. it should be using more tricks and being irritable. dps? that’s more the assassin concept. the whole “permanent stealth” thing is fun when you’re the one stealthed. but otherwise, it’s just bizarre. as someone said – why can’t ele’s just turn invisible, then? or rangers? they’d have good camo gear, surely. and soldiers? why not? they’re good with camo, too. about the only way stealth would work well in any mmo is if it was levelled in the same way morrowind or skyrim does. the more you use, the better you get. but that at the same time, there’s an opposing skill of spotting stealthed toons. and the more you use, the better you get. otherwise, i find it a bit too easy to play.
finally: scorpion wire. cool as. c’mover here!
What I do in WvW: Withdrawl (heal) + shortbow + s/p.
See a group of people. with s/p out, use 2 (from ~2000 distance). walk forward, steal (have trait that gives me swiftness for 10 sec), switch to bow, infil arrow away. watch as everyone chases me, infil arrow again, turn around, withdrawl, turn, dodge rollz. after weapon swap cooldown up, switch and press 2 again. watch group scatter about looking for me to come out of ‘stealth’. jump up and down laughing mykitten off till one of them notice me all the way back there near the horrizon, repeat.
also apply same concept to preventing enemies from capping supply camps.
I mainly scout (considering I can get away from 99% of situations) and pick off stragglers (sp/bow chase ability sooo good, esp with wire and speed signet)
[TBH]Watter
The Brotherhood – Warlord
The Brotherhood – Warlord
I wouldn’t want perma stealth either but a few seconds is not enough for a thief… i only bother using it to lose aggro. Only level 30 so things might change but that is my impression so far.
- You can trait to blind people when entering stealth, that puts you at an advantage.
- You can trait to move faster in stealth.
- You can trait to get a 100% crit chance coming out of stealth That trait and assassins signet + heartseeker is plus TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY percent damage. …out of stealth.
- You can trait to heal while in stealth, along with shadow refuge this is akin to having a second healing skill. Which puts you at an advantage.
- You can trait to regain initiative in stealth which, allowing instance access to weapon skills while a target’s are probably still in cool down. This is an advantage.
- Weapon skills can be completely safe on whiff by triggering stealth + granting stealth bonuses. See: cloak & dagger for a hit confirmed guaranteed crit on heartseeker or pistol whip. Why? Because it put you in stealth.At this point I’m just pretty sure you haven’t spent any time getting familiar with the class and finding it’s strengths and utilities and are just mad it doesn’t work the way you want. So it’s impossible for you to see any of the advantages or possibilities. They are there. And most people in WvW and sPvP alike are of the opinion thief stealth and trait combinations are too strong.
Even the thief players can sometimes admit the stuff we can do to people just isnt right.
Edit: Also, I can survive WvW encounters I might otherwise lose because I can turn freaking invisible. If you can’t escape combat using stealth, you are doing it wrong. Plain and simple. If you ARE escaping combat and situations where other classes would otherwise be stomped…congratulations, you saved yourself having to do the ten minute run of shame back from your base. And that also is a pretty kitten big advantage.
Others may not agree with you, but I sure do.
WvWvW for thief 80% of the time is running and/or watching a keep get hit. The other 20% I’m with the zerg trying to clean up people who stuck around.
It’s just simply boring and other professions are 100x more useful in wuv.
The allergy to a stealth orientated class is very hypocritical from what I’ve seen of it. I see plenty of people bringing up how awful stealth has been in other games, though by that logic should we avoid every class archetype based on how things played out in other games? I didn’t think so.
Having the ability to lay in wait and ambush an unsuspecting foe would be brilliant in my humble opinion.
(edited by Garenthal.1480)
Gonna use my standard copypasta response to “[class] is broken!” people:
There are four possible things happening here.
The first is that you’re not a good enough player. GW2 is hard, and different from other MMOs, and that can take some time to get used to. Keep at it and I’m sure you’ll get better. However, I must ask that you stop blaming it on your class.
The second is that you are trying to get your class to do something it’s not designed to do. Guardians complaining about their lack of ranged burst damage or Thieves complaining about their lack of group healing fall under this category. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. If all classes were the same, this game would be a lot less fun. Just because you’ve discovered one of your class’ intended weaknesses, that class is not broken.
The third is that you’re playing the wrong class. For any given playstyle, there are going to be a few classes that you rock with, several that you’re decent with, and a few that you’re horrible at. This is because of how that class matches up with how you like to play. If your class does not feel intuitive or natural to you, this may very well be your problem. I’d strongly recommend that you try out some other classes.
The fourth reason is that you just need to learn more about your class. If you’re not building your character in a way that makes sense, you’re going to feel underpowered compared to people with a build that complements itself. If you think you fall in this category, spend some time on the wiki and build editor , and start learning.
I’d peg you solidly in type 3, with some type 2 thrown in for good measure.
The allergy to a stealth orientated class is very hypocritical from what I’ve seen of it. I see plenty of people bringing up how awful stealth has been in other games, though by that logic should we avoid every class archetype based on how things played out in other games? I didn’t think so.
Having the ability to lay in wait and ambush an unsuspecting foe would be brilliant in my humble opinion.
Unfortunately we don’t have a days-long stealth. I’d like one for ambushing, yes. But, an example; my warrior friend and I were killing fools like normal. Then we ran into a big group and had to run. So we run and jump down some cliffs – the enemy chasing most of the way. We turn some corners and I drop Shadow Refuge against the wall, telling my friend to wait. I cast it against the wall so the icon wouldn’t show. And what do you know, some lone player comes around the corner looking for us. He stopped like 5 feet in front of us. He was standing right in front of us, completely unaware, when we attacked. The warrior Bull Rushed and 100 Blades, and I just spammed some Heartseeker. He died instantly. No one expects the Warrior Frontstab coming out of stealth!