Guild Wars 2

My first and main character is a level 80 thief. I’ve been playing since the beta weekend events and once I attained 100% map completion, I started pvping with some classes.

Sometimes people don’t see their own flaws and problems because they see through their own eyes. From the point of view of others, a lot is revealed about yourself. This applies to the thief class. Most players will blindly defend their class simply because they don’t want to get any weaker – it’s only natural.

However after a fair amount of spvp matches, it’s clear that the thief class just isn’t right. Of course, there are other unbalanced classes but here I’ll focus on the thief (a badly named class in my opinion, but that’s another matter), since I have considerable playing as one as well as facing thieves in combat.

From my analysis, it appears that the major flaw in the class (ie. the root of the problem) is with the Initiative system. I’ve spent countless (not really) hours spamming 1 or 2 weapon skills in both pve and pvp.

My character used dual pistols most of his life, spamming unload and basic attacks whenever initiative ran out. Dual dagger thieves spam heartseeker or death blossom, sword/ pistol users spam pistol whip etc.

As long as there is no cooldown on the skills, players will use the best skill repeatedly. That creates a problem with certain skills in particular:

Heartseeker: the most commonly spammed skill. It has a low initiative cost, tracks the enemy and does high damage.

Cloak & Dagger: this is much worse than heartseeker although not that many thieves use it (yet). Players can stay cloaked indefinitely, making them near unbeatable in a 1v1 confrontation.

So how do you fix this problem? One solution is to nerf the skills. However, this will probably cause players to shift to another skill/ weapon set.

The more long term solution requires a complete revamp of the Thief class. The initiative system needs to be removed and traits adjusted. While they’re at it, they should rename the class since I don’t think ‘Thief’ is an appropriate name.

I don’t actually expect them to make such a drastic change but that’s the only solution I can think of.

PS. I don’t think backstab is as big of a problem as people make it out to be. It requires the use of multiple skills as well as proper positioning and timing to be effective.

i also think the initiative regen should be around at 2.5 sec ~!

I don’t think the regen matters that much because as long as it is there and skills aren’t on cd people will spam. Powerful skills like cloak and dagger will always be a problem without a cooldown.

I agree that Initiative is the problem, but I really dont feel that removing it is the solution.
If we’re going to go that far, why not just remove the class all together and divy up its skills between the other classes?
We need something to encourage people to not spam. maybe a debuf for using the same skill 3 times in a row, I dont know.. there could be a base cost for a skill, when you use it a second time with in a set number of seconds, it could cost more initiative. It would let us keep using the skill, but discourage spamming at the same time.

i would agree with you at first sight.
How ever if you take an deep look , at current state thief are in incapacity to kill bunker classes . Guardians, elementarists /necromancers /warriors that sacrifice damage for defense. At the same point thieves consider they biggest counter guardian, because an high based armor.
Any player that will stack defence, on any class, will have no problem vs thieves, because compared with other classes , thieves will have the burst limited in the initiative pool ( if an player survive first burst from thief S+p / D+ D / P+P , will have an 75% chance to win that 1 vs 1). But you will see players going even as guardian profesion with high bursts (glass cannons) just because they love to see the numbers ( Oh i hit for 6k damage) . To few ppls use defensive build, you will never see them complain.
Players who like to burst down others, will maybe re-roll to warrior from thief, so problem is unsolved.
As an summary, ppls will always complain, no matter they will about thief or mesmer or warrior, or ranger , every time they will lose an 1 vs 1 and will see high numbers in damage list, without considering to improve own defence.
Regarding HeartSeeker – is an mediocre mobility skill, many classes got leap /charge /blink /telport.
Cloack and Dagger :this skill looks good on paper. Many ppls spam 1 on fights vs thieves to prevent them to come close, so as far as i see it , you get close near an enemy to do cloack and dagger you will eat 2-3 hits. You jump heartseeker +CnD , you burn 9 initiative and still eat 2 /3 hits maybe some debufs.
Except rangers , wich i consider really weak at the moment , any profesion got at least 1 build to counter thieves.
There is no need for any major changes in thief class balance.

it doesn’t matter. as long as there are QQ threads, the thief will be nerfed. simple.

You obviously have not spent enough time playing as or against thieves if you think spamming any one move will kill any player. Go ahead, try spamming Unload on a semi-comitent enemy and see if it dies. Try hearseeker with its meager damage. Deathblossom really? It has quite a high initiative cost. And spamming Pistol whip in any pvp situation is laughable… it’s a root move that can easily be countered…

I am so SICK of everyone complaining about thieves, we have been nerfed countless times when classes like the warrior have yet to even be touched! Everyone cries and cries simply because they themselves do not understand how to defend against the class, this is the main reason I have quit playing GW2, I was really hoping to log in to the forums and see somewhat less QQ then when I left a few weeks ago but that seems to be asking too much. Too many of you WoW cry babies decided to come to the Guild Wars universe I believe.

it can be made really simple : there is way too little risk for the reward.

thats it in a nutshell right there. thieves have some of the best ways to avoid and exit combat in the game, and some of the best mobility in the game with a shortbow. if a class with those mechanics also has some of the highest burst and condition damage in the game you basically just made a recipe for too strong.

highly mobile with easy ways to escape combat = low risk
big burst and condition damage = high reward

its inherently broken.

people are like “im sick of the complaints about thieves”… none of the other classes get complained about as much.

i personally hope they nerf thieves because i would like to play one, but i refuse to play the easy mode op class.

edit – but i know, everyone except thieves are bad and everyone should have to design their character around countering your class.

ZombiesTT.3619:

Cloak & Dagger: this is much worse than heartseeker although not that many thieves use it (yet). Players can stay cloaked indefinitely, making them near unbeatable in a 1v1 confrontation.

Except if you actually want to use your attacks, there’s this little thing called Revealed. You can get tricky with using C&D as your stealth expires to stay hidden most of the time… and do what? Now you’re not actually attacking more than once every couple of seconds.

Initiative is very powerful and flexible, which certainly makes balancing thief skills trickier since you can’t just slap on a long cooldown. However, it also allows thieves to have a set of really situational weapons skills, which is how we get interesting stuff like Headshot and Infiltrator’s Arrow instead of the usual variants of “stun a guy,” “do area damage on a cooldown,” and “do burst damage on a cooldown.”

I rolled a 80 Thief as my fourth 80, and it is laughable at how easy it is to play this class.

You should NEVER die to any other class in a one on one confrontation, except the Mesmer. If you’re losing to bunker builds, learn to use condition damage, it IGNORES toughness, and destroys bunker builds, because most condition removal abilities have an insane recast time.

Seriously if you’re a Theif who belives the class isn’t broken, play another class at 80, fraps it, post it on youtube, and I’ll get on my Thief, and show you everything you have been doing wrong on your Thief.

Until you’ve walked a mile in anothers shoes, you can’t possibly believe you know anything about the difficulties the other classes are having.

My entire guild has made an army of Thieves, five us us 80 now, with many more 50+, and we destroy other groups, and armies twice our size. It’s kitten to have a single class so powerful in WvWvW.

I laughed the first time my Cluster Bomb hit a group of people from 3000 to 8000 in that same group.

Thief is the only class that can go glass cannon, and not suffer from it because the way stealth works in this game, it is the best defense in the game.

THIS should never happen, no matter how bad people play. One guy should never be able to keep so many busy, AND get kills, with little risk of death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j54bkD-3Nr0

jkctmc.8754:

I rolled a 80 Thief as my fourth 80, and it is laughable at how easy it is to play this class.
You should NEVER die to any other class in a one on one confrontation, except the Mesmer. If you’re losing to bunker builds, learn to use condition damage, it IGNORES toughness, and destroys bunker builds, because most condition removal abilities have an insane recast time..

so actualy you will destroy an guardian with 3 traits that pasive remove conditions , and solider runes that remove conditions on shout.
And you don’t even use an condition build , since you do 8000 damage with cluster.
Sir , you are my hero
Can i have an t-shirt with you?

He is the rumored 30/30/30/30/30 thief.

@Rayya and Akuma

You know with the right build, and consumables, you know those foods you can buy, and the things like sharpening stones, you can get more out of builds than you’re implying. And I won’t even get into the hour buffs you have access too, for gems.

I’ll help you out some; +Condition Duration is much better than +Condition Damage. Level 80 Food gives you +40% to your Conditions duration. It even increases the duration of Superior Sigil of Earth, which applies a bleed that stacks 60% of the time you critical hit.

Rayya, you do realize a bunker build generally deals with Altruistic Healing, right? Wait, no you wouldn’t because you obviously don’t play a Guardian, and I have played a fully exotic Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, and finally the Thief before I make my 80 Mesmer.

Let me help you out. Because Altruistic Healing is the bread and butter of most bunker builds, they have to use utilities that apply boons to themselves, and those around them. Because of this they can’t run around with abilities to cure conditions that may never happen.

Please, play the game outside of the easy mode Thieves sandbox. The world is much different out there.

jkctmc.8754:

@Rayya and Akuma

You know with the right build, and consumables, you know those foods you can buy, and the things like sharpening stones, you can get more out of builds than you’re implying. And I won’t even get into the hour buffs you have access too, for gems.

I’ll help you out some; +Condition Duration is much better than +Condition Damage.

Rayya, you do realize a bunker build generally deals with Altruistic Healing, right? Wait, no you wouldn’t because you obviously don’t play a Guardian, and I have played a fully exotic Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, and finally the Thief before I make my 80 Mesmer.

Let me help you out. Because Altruistic Healing is the bread and butter of most bunker builds, they have to use utilities that apply boons to themselves, and those around them. Because of this they can’t run around with abilities to cure conditions that may never happen.

Please, play the game outside of the easy mode Thieves sandbox. The world is much different out there.

I even have an fanboy topic on guardian forums
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/How-do-I-achieve-these-stats/first#post687046
Now before you make any other wrong assumptions , can i have my t-shirt ?
because i spotted an troll , i want my reward !!!

i am not going to post more then this.
An tanky build on medium armor that can output insane damage.It can surive an full burst from full glass cannon thief, without any dodge roll or stealth.
When ppls will stop make standard glass cannons , they will not die in 2 hits anymore.

ZombiesTT.3619:

Dual dagger thieves spam heartseeker or death blossom

Only those who were dropped on the head as children. This caused me to stop reading. If you really spent as much time as you claimed on thief, you would realize this remark was valid for maybe the first 3 weeks of the game, max. To be a good D/D thief now, you need to make use of all of your abilities except death blossom.

@Xyrm

Death Blossom is best used when you have two large groups approaching each other. Lead in with DB until you’re out of initiative, and turn on Dagger Storm, and your initiative will regenerate while under the effects of Dagger Storm.

The AoE damage is INSANE in WvWvW, and I usually escape to a safe place, switch to a shortbow, and Cluster Bomb while collecting the bags that are dropping at my feet.

@Rayya

The best way to add conditions to the Guardian is with skills like Cluster Bomb, which does not trigger retaliation, so you take zero damage applying bleeds/poisons using the right skills.

The fights are longer than normal, true. But really I only need to get you to burn your cooldowns, and while they’re on cooldown get you to 50% health so I can burn you in a few seconds.

I’ll gladly take that 700 retaliation, for a 4k-5k backstab, and I feel sorry for you, if your health drops to 50% or below because 700 Retaliation is nothing comepared to the damage I’m going to be doing to you, when you have 8000, or less health.

burn guardian to 8k hp with heal on cooldown (32 seconds) with cluster bombs is hard.
We should try once, on what server should i transfer for the test.

@Rayya

My gear, and set up will only work in WvWvW, and once I go into sPvP where you can’t use a lot of things you use elsewhere, the argument becomes pointless. So the only way we could test this, is if you tranfer to a server after the reset, that I am fighting against.

My Cluster Bomb hits from 2500 to 6500 depending on a lot of variables. Most of all it will be determined by the amount of vulnerability stacks you allow me to place on you, among other variables.

I will also have retaliation on me on top of every boon, after I steal from you. <winks>

Rayya.2591:

i am not going to post more then this.
An tanky build on medium armor that can output insane damage.It can surive an full burst from full glass cannon thief, without any dodge roll or stealth.
When ppls will stop make standard glass cannons , they will not die in 2 hits anymore.

Umm no. I run a thief with around the same stats and I still die insanely fast. Lets look even at the low end of the spectrum. 3k mug+3k C&D+6k backstab+4k HS= you dead. No dodge roll or stealth? I don’t think so.

The root of the problem is that you people whine too much, you yell X is overpowered so X is nerfed putting Y in the spotlight then the proces starts over.

So taking this by the source of the problem is permanent ban people that are unwilling to learn and adapt.

the ONLY nerf that i can accept is a 3 sec revealed debuff, AFTER stealth ends. PERIOD.
also with the stealth fix, it should be the best thing(then maybe reduce it to 2 sec?)
:for devs to consider.

Distaste.4801:

Rayya.2591:

i am not going to post more then this.
An tanky build on medium armor that can output insane damage.It can surive an full burst from full glass cannon thief, without any dodge roll or stealth.
When ppls will stop make standard glass cannons , they will not die in 2 hits anymore.

Umm no. I run a thief with around the same stats and I still die insanely fast. Lets look even at the low end of the spectrum. 3k mug+3k C&D+6k backstab+4k HS= you dead. No dodge roll or stealth? I don’t think so.

6 k backstabs are very rare or 4k hs even more rare on2850 defence, i autocloack on 25% hp wich is arround 4 k. As far i remember i eated an 5700 backstab recently , but as i told are kinda rare

Well I can see that this discussion has turned.
Given enough time, all Thief topics seem to turn in to arguements about Damage and the thiefs OP skills.

Zombie, feel free to send me a message on GW2, I woud actualy enjoy having a real discussion about this topic.

I can see that a lot of replies are from Thief players who think they know their class better than they actually do. I’m not even going to go into details as to how c&d can be exploited since I don’t want a bunch of bandwagonists making pvp even less tolerable. A ‘good’ c&d thief will decimate even the tankiest bunker guardian.

Heartseeker is still very much viable by the way. Obviously you don’t spam it when someone is at full health but once they are at 50% it’s pretty easy to take them down with a simple spam, using the right traits and build.

The initiative system is not the problem, peroid, end of story.

People spam 1 or 2 abilities because they are the only abilities worth using, at all, most of the time. If you want damage, you spam the damage ability, and we all have to do damage.

The REAL problem is that there’s not enough utility or damage on our other weapon skills to make them attractive. I’d press a lot more buttons if they had better uses functionality, but they don’t.

Take the ranged interrupt, for instance. Sure, it interrupts a spell, but it only locks out spell casting for 1/4 of a second, and it hits like a spit wad. It costs so much initiative to use, that it’s not worth it. I’d rather eat what ever spell is coming, and just blast somebody.

See the problem there? The gains aren’t worth the initiative cost 90% of the time. So, we spam the damage skills, and nothing else.

Initiative is fine. Weapon design is flawed.

DanH.5879:

it doesn’t matter. as long as there are QQ threads, the thief will be nerfed. simple.

Sad but true. The only really OP skill in our entire toolbox is Backstab. Issues like slow post-stealth rendering and model culling are to do with the GW2 engine and has nothing to do with Thieves.

Meanwhile, weapon sets like P/P still go completely unfixed.

Wraithforge.8710:

The initiative system is not the problem, peroid, end of story.

People spam 1 or 2 abilities because they are the only abilities worth using, at all, most of the time. If you want damage, you spam the damage ability, and we all have to do damage.

The REAL problem is that there’s not enough utility or damage on our other weapon skills to make them attractive. I’d press a lot more buttons if they had better uses functionality, but they don’t.

Take the ranged interrupt, for instance. Sure, it interrupts a spell, but it only locks out spell casting for 1/4 of a second, and it hits like a spit wad. It costs so much initiative to use, that it’s not worth it. I’d rather eat what ever spell is coming, and just blast somebody.

See the problem there? The gains aren’t worth the initiative cost 90% of the time. So, we spam the damage skills, and nothing else.

Initiative is fine. Weapon design is flawed.

Every class has ‘better’ and ‘useless’ weapon skills. For example, if my Greatsword Guardian had Initiative, I would spam 2 and only use 3 occasionally to close the distance.

@jktcmc, you’re hilarious.

You are trying to base nerfs around WvW (terrible idea, too many factors to consider how you’re doing as much damage as you are). You also state that thief can’t be Mesmer, but Thief is the OP class. Not mesmer.

Thief is only good in small skirmishes in WvW, which doesn’t matter in the long run. Thieves aren’t anywhere near as good as other classes in zerg battles nor are they as good at defending bases as other classes. You can go ahead and claim Cluster Bomb is so good at it, but the speed of the ability removes any chance you have of killing someone who isn’t just standing in the same spot auto attacking the gate. Other classes do it a ton better.

Now for the OP, initiative isn’t the problem. The problem is Mug and Cloak and Dagger. You use 6 initiative in the burst combo people complain about, and rarely ever use an ability more than once, so CDs really wouldn’t matter. Our skills are nerfed as opposed to other classes abilities, simply because we don’t have cooldowns. Take a look at Headshot, and then look at Magic Bullet (Mesmer off-hand Pistol 5 ability).