Guild Wars 2

Kasama.8941:

This is what I don’t understand about the Thief:

• ArenaNet says the Thief is not problem at a higher skill level such as in paids, but is a problem for low to medium skilled players.
• No one plays a Thief in high level paids, because it offers no valuable role.
• Everyone plays a Thief in casual sPvP and WvW, because of stealth.

So isn’t the obvious solution to remove some of the stealth, to make the casual and WvW players happy, and then give the Thief some more protection and support in return, to make it more valuable in paids?

Less stealth + more protection and support = a lot of happy players!

What do suggest for the non-burst sets that live off their stealth skills for attack and survival? Sure you can buff survival, but they’ll still lack thier ability to be offensively effective.

Thief need to punished when they miss there attack while on stealth mode. They need to revealed there self if they miss the attack or if they use another skill. That is a lot of favor for thief. If they miss they are still on stealth mode or even they use another skill if they dont hit something they are still on stealth mode. While other class is punished when they miss there skill, what a balance. And even you dodge a lot there initiative regen a lot faster. Wow…

Thieves are OP and can stealth.
Guardians can tank, heal, and still do relatively heavy amounts of damage.
GS warriors hurt pretty bad if you manage to get rooted in their HB.
Ele’s and Engi’s can stun lock you and basically bounce you around the map like a basketball.
Mesmers and Necros are well known to be a pain as well….

The point being is that thieves are OP, but thats because they are basically the squishiest class there is once you take into account HP. Someone else said you can make a tank out of a thief, but as they mentioned your DPS goes so far down you would likely get killed in PvP before killing anything else.

The only tradeoff I would be interested in for a significant reduction in DPS would be if we gained the ability to take no dmg while stealthed. The fact of the matter is, people don’t understand that it takes quite a bit of skill to manuever around 500 circles of randomly place AoE while stealthed and still taking heavy (squishy) damage.

The moral of the story being, sure thieves can end you practically before you see them, but realistically if you survive/counter then many times they are dead meat….

One thing that drives me crazy lately in WvW is that I can 2-3 shot a person, but cant really stand around to flag them because the ensuing 500 circles of AoE and DoTs on me cause me to run away. So like I said take my damage, but give me some survive-ability (preferably immune to dmg maybe not conditions, in stealth)

King Amadaeus.8619:

So like I said take my damage, but give me some survive-ability (preferably immune to dmg maybe not conditions, in stealth)

A joke?

Laika.8795:

Cool. And what about adjusting our abilities? Because, outside of heart seeker (highly situational) and pistol whip, NONE of our abilities are designed for damage. The whole thief dynamic is to acquire stealth and apply damage, everything else is a means to that end.

You’re suggesting a rework that requires all thieves to run GC builds to front load as much damage as we can, because otherwise we are wholly ineffective.

I feel like no one really understands the plight of the auto attack dependent thief outside of stealth.

Who cares about design, when the weapons deal plenty of damage. It’s a Thief, not an Assassin. The point is to deal consistent damage, with some burst in between, while evading attacks from your foe. Stealth skills are just a way to keep the pressure on your opponent consistent, to make up for the damage you lose while you’re in stealth. The Thief was never meant to be totally dependent on stealth, but I can see how someone could think that. The Thief is designed to rely on movement, with stealth being a tool to further improve mobility and survivability.

Dual.8953:

What do suggest for the non-burst sets that live off their stealth skills for attack and survival? Sure you can buff survival, but they’ll still lack thier ability to be offensively effective.

Well I suggest you learn to play without relying on them, of curse. Just like all other professions, the Thief has different weapon sets, for different situations. It’s mostly in the third skill. Unload is the classic burst skill, that pairs well with the vulnerability from Body Shot. But if you put in an off-hand dagger instead, you suddenly get a much more defensive weapon set, that’s meant to keep the distance to a foe. Say, if someone want’s to attack you with a melee weapon, it’s probably a good idea to have a weapon that prevents him from coming close to you. But if he has a ranged weapon instead, you have your burst weapon set to bring him down. Luckily, you can have two weapon sets, meaning you can use both options.

Yes! Learn to play with our autoattack only, since it seems to be the only damaging ability anyone wants us to have. LOL

Kasama.8941:

Laika.8795:

Cool. And what about adjusting our abilities? Because, outside of heart seeker (highly situational) and pistol whip, NONE of our abilities are designed for damage. The whole thief dynamic is to acquire stealth and apply damage, everything else is a means to that end.

You’re suggesting a rework that requires all thieves to run GC builds to front load as much damage as we can, because otherwise we are wholly ineffective.

I feel like no one really understands the plight of the auto attack dependent thief outside of stealth.

Who cares about design, when the weapons deal plenty of damage. It’s a Thief, not an Assassin. The point is to deal consistent damage, with some burst in between, while evading attacks from your foe. Stealth skills are just a way to keep the pressure on your opponent consistent, to make up for the damage you lose while you’re in stealth. The Thief was never meant to be totally dependent on stealth, but I can see how someone could think that. The Thief is designed to rely on movement, with stealth being a tool to further improve mobility and survivability.

Dual.8953:

What do suggest for the non-burst sets that live off their stealth skills for attack and survival? Sure you can buff survival, but they’ll still lack thier ability to be offensively effective.

Well I suggest you learn to play without relying on them, of curse. Just like all other professions, the Thief has different weapon sets, for different situations. It’s mostly in the third skill. Unload is the classic burst skill, that pairs well with the vulnerability from Body Shot. But if you put in an off-hand dagger instead, you suddenly get a much more defensive weapon set, that’s meant to keep the distance to a foe. Say, if someone want’s to attack you with a melee weapon, it’s probably a good idea to have a weapon that prevents him from coming close to you. But if he has a ranged weapon instead, you have your burst weapon set to bring him down. Luckily, you can have two weapon sets, meaning you can use both options.

The problem being is P/D without condition damage lacks killing power and its only viable condition skill is sneak attack.
S/D is in a similar boat where Flanking Strike is better used for the boon strip the evading or damage dealing. FS’s evade status isn’t immediate so its defensive uses are limited and it’s less then perfectly accurate, limiting its offense. As this is the case, S/D’s only damage dealer is the basic combo, and that alone isn’t enough to be effective in encounters. Especially when you factor in PvP and dungeoning.
In short, nerfs to stealth hurt S/D and P/D tenfold compared to D/D and D/P. (if you ask me it’s dagger main hand that’s overpowered, I mean all the usually complaints are toward Dagger mainhand skills, and most arguements are assuming the thief is D/D.)

Reflexmonkey.1943:

thieves are op. period.

Thieves are balanced, l2p. Period.

c wat I did thur?

Well, atleast in WvW the game is balancing itself. Every week there’s more and more Elementalists and thiefs. Now if only i could roll a bright wizard… :P

Overall the game is becoming a disgrace of a class diversity. Warhammer/Tor here we come.

Kasama.8941:

Who cares about design, when the weapons deal plenty of damage. It’s a Thief, not an Assassin. The point is to deal consistent damage, with some burst in between, while evading attacks from your foe. Stealth skills are just a way to keep the pressure on your opponent consistent, to make up for the damage you lose while you’re in stealth. The Thief was never meant to be totally dependent on stealth, but I can see how someone could think that. The Thief is designed to rely on movement, with stealth being a tool to further improve mobility and survivability.

Well I suggest you learn to play without relying on them, of curse. Just like all other professions, the Thief has different weapon sets, for different situations. It’s mostly in the third skill. Unload is the classic burst skill, that pairs well with the vulnerability from Body Shot. But if you put in an off-hand dagger instead, you suddenly get a much more defensive weapon set, that’s meant to keep the distance to a foe. Say, if someone want’s to attack you with a melee weapon, it’s probably a good idea to have a weapon that prevents him from coming close to you. But if he has a ranged weapon instead, you have your burst weapon set to bring him down. Luckily, you can have two weapon sets, meaning you can use both options.

First of all, can we stop this argument about how the thief is not supposed to be an assassin? The included picture shows an assassin that uses both thief and ranger skills and stealths. I doubt it was the intention of the game designers to make the thief at the exclusion of the assassin. The thief is a catch all term used to include a variety of different builds and playstyles.

Secondly, for the most part, P/D and P/P do not harmonize particularly well. One emphasizes condition damage and one emphasizes direct damage and would require and odd combination of traits and armor yielding a character that specializes in nothing. Furthermore, unless you are running in a group that deals a lot of direct damage, you would be better off saving the initiative of body shot for another use of unload.

Kasama.8941:

Laika.8795:

Cool. And what about adjusting our abilities? Because, outside of heart seeker (highly situational) and pistol whip, NONE of our abilities are designed for damage. The whole thief dynamic is to acquire stealth and apply damage, everything else is a means to that end.

You’re suggesting a rework that requires all thieves to run GC builds to front load as much damage as we can, because otherwise we are wholly ineffective.

I feel like no one really understands the plight of the auto attack dependent thief outside of stealth.

Who cares about design, when the weapons deal plenty of damage. It’s a Thief, not an Assassin. The point is to deal consistent damage, with some burst in between, while evading attacks from your foe. Stealth skills are just a way to keep the pressure on your opponent consistent, to make up for the damage you lose while you’re in stealth. The Thief was never meant to be totally dependent on stealth, but I can see how someone could think that. The Thief is designed to rely on movement, with stealth being a tool to further improve mobility and survivability.

Dual.8953:

What do suggest for the non-burst sets that live off their stealth skills for attack and survival? Sure you can buff survival, but they’ll still lack thier ability to be offensively effective.

Well I suggest you learn to play without relying on them, of curse. Just like all other professions, the Thief has different weapon sets, for different situations. It’s mostly in the third skill. Unload is the classic burst skill, that pairs well with the vulnerability from Body Shot. But if you put in an off-hand dagger instead, you suddenly get a much more defensive weapon set, that’s meant to keep the distance to a foe. Say, if someone want’s to attack you with a melee weapon, it’s probably a good idea to have a weapon that prevents him from coming close to you. But if he has a ranged weapon instead, you have your burst weapon set to bring him down. Luckily, you can have two weapon sets, meaning you can use both options.

Why don’t you remove your main damage dealing attacks and your best defenses and learn to play your own class that way. While it is a possibility, it’s not what every thief wants to do. And it is very limiting when you play a thief without stealth.

Dual.8953:

The problem being is P/D without condition damage lacks killing power and its only viable condition skill is sneak attack.
S/D is in a similar boat where Flanking Strike is better used for the boon strip the evading or damage dealing. FS’s evade status isn’t immediate so its defensive uses are limited and it’s less then perfectly accurate, limiting its offense. As this is the case, S/D’s only damage dealer is the basic combo, and that alone isn’t enough to be effective in encounters. Especially when you factor in PvP and dungeoning.
In short, nerfs to stealth hurt S/D and P/D tenfold compared to D/D and D/P. (if you ask me it’s dagger main hand that’s overpowered, I mean all the usually complaints are toward Dagger mainhand skills, and most arguements are assuming the thief is D/D.)

I don’t disagree, I just don’t see the problem. If your only reliable source of burst is the 5-1 combo, then it probably means the weapon set is not meant to primarily deal damage. But it’s not like Cloak and Dagger would be removed from the game, it would be replaced by another skill. It could even be a burst skill. And you still have access to stealth from steal and all three utility slots.

Maugetarr.6823:

First of all, can we stop this argument about how the thief is not supposed to be an assassin? The included picture shows an assassin that uses both thief and ranger skills and stealths. I doubt it was the intention of the game designers to make the thief at the exclusion of the assassin. The thief is a catch all term used to include a variety of different builds and playstyles.

Secondly, for the most part, P/D and P/P do not harmonize particularly well. One emphasizes condition damage and one emphasizes direct damage and would require and odd combination of traits and armor yielding a character that specializes in nothing. Furthermore, unless you are running in a group that deals a lot of direct damage, you would be better off saving the initiative of body shot for another used of unload.

Actually, it was the intention. The Thief is build up around movement and trickery, which is very different from an Assassin. Stealth burst skills were made so the Thief could keep pressure on opponents, after coming out of stealth, because while you’re in stealth you can’t deal any damage. The current playstyle that we see today, was not how the Thief was advertised to play as. Personally, I just think ArenaNet became afraid of toning stealth down, as the Thief would then not have any real role anymore (like it doesn’t have in tPvP). Because before this whole burst fest came about, the Thief was not a very popular profession. So ArenaNet just kinda let it become an Assassin. But that is not what the Thief is, or what it was originally played like. At all.

Lofat.2406:

Why don’t you remove your main damage dealing attacks and your best defenses and learn to play your own class that way. While it is a possibility, it’s not what every thief wants to do. And it is very limiting when you play a thief without stealth.

I play a pistol/pistol/shortbow Thief, and I don’t find it limiting at all. I’m not suggesting that all stealth skills should be removed, just that it should be toned down. Hoping that Thieves learn to deal damage in other ways then spamming 5-1, and learn to use movement as much as they use stealth.

@kas: You’re running an all ranged set with access to blinds, dazes and escapes and you’re telling a melee set do what you do except without blinds, dazes and escapes, all while at point blank range. And once again, S/D isn’t a burst spec. It’s more akin to a contol spec.

I would love to have more than a 15% uptime on an enemy thief in WvW. Alas, stealth seems to be borderline permanent…

Beside that of thief having a trade off between stealth (invisibility/transparancy 100%-90%) and (speed, quickness, burst (min. – max. respectively)), I also like the thief to remain modest in health/vitality. To compensate for remaining modest in health/vitality, the thief should have an unique enhanced dodge/endurance ability. Instead of one dodge per endurance they should have something like 3 dodge per endurance and thus increase their ability to escape from aoe attacks and zerg/crowd attacks. Their endurance should also be enhanced to facilitate their survivability with their unique multiple dodge rolls per endurance. If 3 dodge rolls per endurance is not enough then make it 4 dodge rolls per endurance and so on…

Why not make this thread for other classes aswell?
Funny seeing all these buffs suggested when thieves are probably one of the best classes in the game.

Thieves are overpowered. Only thieves say they aren’t. A high DPS one can’t be killed because it stealths with combo fields every 3 seconds when revealed debuff is off.
All you need is, your house skill, unstopable escape from battle ability, can’t aoe the house enough to kill them in time (house is 4 seconds only), blinding powder (stealth and blind) Dagger/Pistol #5 and #2 for stealth, Pistol/Dagger, #5 for stealth. Trait for more initiative, more stealth duration, and thats it. Stealth, hit, Stealth, hit, Stealth, hit, Stealth, hit. And don’t say we suck. There were 2 of our thieves, a guardian, a warrior, a mesmer and a ranger trying to stop him but he got us down and took us out with the “Finisher move in stealth” thing which is STILL not fixed, and we can’t get to the player and res him intime in 3 seconds for a finisher in stealth.

Fix:
Combo field stealths
Double thief stealth cooldowns
Increase house stay-inside duration
Make it that you cant finish off someone in stealth or mist form
Reveal stealthed players when they are hit

These are top most bugs, or just plain stupid things which aren’t STILL noticed.
Anet, I hope you fix this in the next major patch, at least some of them anyways.

Henrik.7560:

Thieves are overpowered. Only thieves say they aren’t. A high DPS one can’t be killed because it stealths with combo fields every 3 seconds when revealed debuff is off.
All you need is, your house skill, unstopable escape from battle ability, can’t aoe the house enough to kill them in time (house is 4 seconds only), blinding powder (stealth and blind) Dagger/Pistol #5 and #2 for stealth, Pistol/Dagger, #5 for stealth. Trait for more initiative, more stealth duration, and thats it. Stealth, hit, Stealth, hit, Stealth, hit, Stealth, hit. And don’t say we suck. There were 2 of our thieves, a guardian, a warrior, a mesmer and a ranger trying to stop him but he got us down and took us out with the “Finisher move in stealth” thing which is STILL not fixed, and we can’t get to the player and res him intime in 3 seconds for a finisher in stealth.

Fix:
Combo field stealths
Double thief stealth cooldowns
Increase house stay-inside duration
Make it that you cant finish off someone in stealth or mist form
Reveal stealthed players when they are hit

These are top most bugs, or just plain stupid things which aren’t STILL noticed.
Anet, I hope you fix this in the next major patch, at least some of them anyways.

If there were two thieves in your group you have just single handedly ended this entire thread and proven it is a learn to play issue.

Henrik.7560:

…And don’t say we suck. There were 2 of our thieves, a guardian, a warrior, a mesmer and a ranger trying to stop him but he got us down and took us out with the “Finisher move in stealth” thing which is STILL not fixed, and we can’t get to the player and res him intime in 3 seconds for a finisher in stealth.

Oh wow, how do I frame this in a way that doesn’t end in an infraction…

You just proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this was you getting out played. If thief is OP, and you have 2 (+more), and lose to one thief… Do you get what I’m saying? The numbers don’t lie.

Furthermore, you seem to have no group cohesion here. 5 people, yet unable to stop a stomp? Stealth or no stealth, if someone goes down in your group and a thief is setting up a stealth stomp, you walk over and attack. That’s right, get this: he’s still there, and it’s obvious what he’s doing. If all four people attacked the area where the fifth was downed, the thief would have been downed in a fraction of a second. Even if you were to be too naive to think that the thief was invulnerable at that juncture and there was nothing you can do, ressing is a lot faster than a stomp, and even faster when multiple people are doing so. How were you working as a group when you were all too far away to help the downed individual?

I swear, you people… You people…

@henrik: Thieves are at their absolute weakest while stomping. (Only blind stomps are the exception to this and even then they’re weak to non-melee attacks) If they disappear over your downed ally, they’re likely stealth stomping, thus they are vulnerable to any attack that doesn’t need a target.
Also, about your nerf suggestion. Do you want all thieves to run cheesy BS insta-gib specs? Because that’s what those nerfs seem to be suggesting.
You’re pretty much saying “I hate dagger Main Hand thieves, so let’s nerf every other weapon set so all thieves are forced to play dagger Main Hand”
And drop stealth on hit? Are you crazy? You know Thieves don’t have and fancy protection boons high vitality or armour like other classes right? They’re either hit or they dodged; and even with full armour and vital they’re very flimsy.

Dual.8953:

@kas: You’re running an all ranged set with access to blinds, dazes and escapes and you’re telling a melee set do what you do except without blinds, dazes and escapes, all while at point blank range. And once again, S/D isn’t a burst spec. It’s more akin to a contol spec.

What are you talking about? All weapon sets has some form of escape skill, and your utility skills and traits offers plenty of ways to avoid damage.

I’m not sure what you are replying to in your last line. Are you saying that adding a burst skill to sword/dagger makes it bad?

Inconsistency:

• Shadow Refuge stacks stealth
  • If you have stealth, shadow refuge will give you more stealth
  • Allows you to sit in shadow refuge and stack stealth duration

• Mesmer Temporal Curtain does not stack with any other form of swiftness
  • If you have swiftness from anything, running through it gives you nothing
  • Prevents you from running back and forth through it to stack swiftness
• Mesmer Veil does not stack with any other form of stealth
  • If you have stealth from anything, running through it gives you nothing
  • Prevents you from running back and forth through it to stack stealth

I fought a 2h sword ranger
Did I use stealth? no, I used black powder and the ranger thought was a good idea stay there all the fight, I kill him with autoattack and black powder only
until people like this ranger will say THIEF OP thief will be OP.
I agree that a miss/evaded stealth attack should remove stealth

The problem with the constant stealth is that now people have, at best, a very small window (~1-2 sec) window to exchange hits with the thief from the time they become visible to the time they re-stealth. This exchange does not often allow for big hits from the non-Thief except for a few skills that track while stealthed and conditions are near useless due to the traits removing conditions while stealthed.

Due to the design of these attacks to be high damage, particularly Backstab, which is also instant, the thief is able to exchange high damage for low to medium damage and then regenerates again while stealthed, further mitigating damage exchanged.

A further issue I have with inconsistency:
Hundred blades, eviscerate, unload, blurred frenzy, sneak attack, etc. all have visuals that give me a chance to dodge roll, block, etc. to mitigate that damage. There is no visual to enable me to do the same with the Thief’s backstab, yet it hits just as hard as the above (except possibly hundred blades). Furthermore, due to the ease by which they can go in and out of stealth, the Thief can consistently make use of this instant, high-damage attack with no visual cue. I think it’d be fair for a thief to unstealth for the 0.5 sec it takes to swing the backstab in order to give people a chance to mitigate it. Seeing as how a thief can stealth for more than 3 seconds at a time via traits and stacking stealth, blocks are insufficient.

Sebrent.3625:

Inconsistency:

• Shadow Refuge stacks stealth
  • If you have stealth, shadow refuge will give you more stealth
  • Allows you to sit in shadow refuge and stack stealth duration
    …
• Mesmer Veil does not stack with any other form of stealth
  • If you have stealth from anything, running through it gives you nothing
  • Prevents you from running back and forth through it to stack stealth

Mesmer Veil does not give you the reveal debuff when you leave the casting area, Shadow Refuge does. Comparing apples to oranges doesn’t make sense, FYI.

My “clones” are on a 180sec timer, think I should get one every time I dodge.

Sebrent.3625:

The problem with the constant stealth is that now people have, at best, a very small window (~1-2 sec) window to exchange hits with the thief from the time they become visible to the time they re-stealth…

Ok, so the stealth is automagic/garunteed? Oh, you’re just neglecting the personal responsibility to which the onus is on you for not dodging the c&d (unless they blew a long cd stealth). Cool, bro.

Sebrent.3625:

Due to the design of these attacks to be high damage, singularly Backstab…

Fixed that for you, buddy.

It seems the issue is the class requires more than Press Tab+mash keyboard to fight against.

Every second post on here is “I cant see the thief; why is he invisible; thief has too much stealth”

The reason I think tPVP players don’t have an issue with thieves is probably because they actually think instead and don’t rely on tab-target+skillspam to beat their enemies. The majority of ^these^ people( the whiny children on the forums), however, seem to think thats the only way to play GW2 and anything that makes that more difficult is OP.

How do I dodge CnD when it’s something I can’t see, you say? Well how am I supposed to know whether you are going to hundred blades me immediately or wait till I blow CDs? Are you going to use Bull’s Charge or maybe swap on hammer/mace/shield stun? How will I ever know how when to use my stunbreaker? How do I know what traps you are dropping and when? How do I guess when you decide to shatter your clones? How do I know that my burst won’t be completely negated by your blurred frenzy? How am I supposed to burst if you are just going to pop a pushback as soon as I start? How am I supposed to fight if you are just going to pop fear if I get close?

See? I can whine about how this game makes me think how I fight other players rather than have every fight an A+B=C encounter, too.

Laika.8795:

Sebrent.3625:

Inconsistency:

• Shadow Refuge stacks stealth
  • If you have stealth, shadow refuge will give you more stealth
  • Allows you to sit in shadow refuge and stack stealth duration
    …
• Mesmer Veil does not stack with any other form of stealth
  • If you have stealth from anything, running through it gives you nothing
  • Prevents you from running back and forth through it to stack stealth

Mesmer Veil does not give you the reveal debuff when you leave the casting area, Shadow Refuge does. Comparing apples to oranges doesn’t make sense, FYI.

My “clones” are on a 180sec timer, think I should get one every time I dodge.

(1) Good point with reveal debuff
(2) Your “clones” actually hurt when they hit people. Mine apply a condition, at best … unless I blow them up ;-)
(3) You did not touch on the fact that it stacks while Mesmer’s Temporal Curtain and Veil don’t, nor does the Guardian’s Symbol of Swiftness … why does this one thing get to stack its boon but others don’t?
(4) Veil is 90 second cd utility. Mass Invisibility is a 90 second cd elite. Neither one stacks stealth. Both only give stealth. Shadow Refuge is a 60 second utility that stealths, stacks stealth, and heals … I’m only asking that either it stop stacking stealth or the others be able to stack their boons.

I know a bad Thief simply dies. They are a squishy class. The issue is when you compare a good Thief to a good Non-Thief. A fight against a good Thief that uses the stealth heavy build is a fight where you barely see your opponent. It’s not a fun fight. You have to burst the Thief down very quickly else they simply attack-stealth-repeat. A fight against a good Non-Thief has you dodging skills whose animations you see, both people constantly fighting. There is no, “oh, I just got backstabbed, let’s wait for him to unstealth again … backstab there he is … now let’s wait for him to unstealth again”.

Laika.8795:

Sebrent.3625:

The problem with the constant stealth is that now people have, at best, a very small window (~1-2 sec) window to exchange hits with the thief from the time they become visible to the time they re-stealth…

Ok, so the stealth is automagic/garunteed? Oh, you’re just neglecting the personal responsibility to which the onus is on you for not dodging the c&d (unless they blew a long cd stealth). Cool, bro.

First, landing cloak and dagger isn’t difficult.

Second, landing cloak and dagger when there are NPCs around is trivial.

Third, when they miss a cloak and dagger they still have Hide in Shadows, Shadow Refugee, and/or Blinding Powder. Assuming they were full initiative, they can also try to immediately Cloak and Dagger again as you have enough initiative to cast it twice back-to-back when full.

Jonny.9370:

How do I dodge something I can’t see, you say? Well how am I supposed to know whether you are going to hundred blades me immediately or wait till I blow CDs? Are you going to use Bull’s Charge or maybe swap on hammer/mace/shield stun? How will I ever know how when to use my stunbreaker? How do I know what traps you are dropping and when? How do I guess when you decide to shatter your clones? How do I know that my burst won’t be completely negated by your blurred frenzy? How am I supposed to burst if you are just going to pop a pushback as soon as I start? How am I supposed to fight if you are just going to pop fear if I get close?

See? I can whine about how this game makes me play intelligently rather than have every fight an A+B=C encounter, too.

The thing is, you can see the warrior throw a bola. You can see the warrior bull’s charge at you. You can even use a stunbreaker or condition removal to get out of either of them if you failed to evade them. You can see the Hundred Blade’s and dodge roll, block, hit distortion, teleport, etc. depending on your class. People have nothing to indicate even a 0.5 second before when you are going to backstab them. That is the difference. I can react to something that I can see. I cannot react to something that I cannot see except by trying to guess when you are going to backstab or, depending on class, using something like Ride the Lightning to get the hell away from where you stealthed, but that’s letting the Thief force a reset on the fight.

Whether or not you have blown all your stamina and cooldowns when someone uses their high damage attack is a completely different issue.

A large part of GW2s combat that was advertised was using the actual animations in combat as visual cues instead of simply staring at icons. When fighting most classes, they have been quite successful at this. Even when fighting some thieves, it has been very successful. When it comes to the ease by which a Thief can consistently backstab a player in a single fight, how much damage it does, and the lack of any visual indicators they have an anomaly.

Sebrent.3625:

The thing is, you can see the warrior throw a bola. You can see the warrior bull’s charge at you. You can even use a stunbreaker or condition removal to get out of either of them if you failed to evade them. You can see the Hundred Blade’s and dodge roll, block, hit distortion, teleport, etc. depending on your class. People have nothing to indicate even a 0.5 second before when you are going to backstab them. That is the difference. I can react to something that I can see. I cannot react to something that I cannot see except by trying to guess when you are going to backstab or, depending on class, using something like Ride the Lightning to get the hell away from where you stealthed, but that’s letting the Thief force a reset on the fight.

My series of rhetorical questions were to convey that if you think about what is happening, you can avoid it. Sure you can’t see the animation, but you did see the thief vanish right? You did see he had basilisk, correct? If not, then stealth is irrelavent since a warrior has the same advantages as the thief if the enemy is completely unaware.

More importantly, I was also trying to show how much “guesswork” is involved in the game. I play Warrior very often. As a matter of fact, I have more time on the Warrior than the Thief. With my 100b set up, I could bull rush you at the very start, especially if you don’t even know I am there. I can hit you with bolas from close range. I can root you with Pin Down then swap to GS to fire off the hundred blades. I can use Hammer burst to stun then follow that with the GS. There are a multitude of abilities I can use to ensure I catch you with the 100 blades.

It is up to you to figure how I am going to strike and when, and to mitigate that damage as best you can. IMO it is no different against thieves. There are times where I will not fight someone unless I have the right weapon set/traits because I know I will lose. For example, when in hotjoin, if I have determined a guardian to be a bunker, I will switch to S/D and drain him and outlast him the best I can by removing conditions with Infiltrators and dodging with both endurance and Flanking Strike. Sure I can run at him headfirst and then complain that this bunker took no damage from my BS combo, but you and I both know how stupid that is.

On my Warrior, built for toughness and hammer use, I can literally eat the backstab and 2 heartseekers, then laugh as I regen through shouts and heals, summarily pounding the living crap out of the thief with chain CCs.

Is the BS build highly effective? Absolutely. But it is NOT an IWIN button. Another poster, whose only purpose in life seemed to be to get thieves nerfed, came in here and asked “How do I 2 shot people?” He actually created a thief to see for himself what thieves can “do”. That right there was funny to me on its own. Someone who consistently bashed thieves for being cheap and OP, going so far as to suggest various nerfs, never actually played one. To his surprise, he was unable to reproduce these 14k Backstabs he had previously claimed to be so easy and OP. And that’s how I picture most of these other posters. The call for nerfs and have this image of theives being invincible killing machines that require no thought.

a poor TD;DR — There are ways to avoid it and ways to counter. If not, then how does anyone die as a thief?

The issue is that with culling, thieves get perma stealth (virtually) without having to spec high in stealth lines for it. So they can beef up either dps or their defenses and get benefits of full stealth.

The only solution offered is for the rest of the classes to be mindreaders to guess where they are (lol), run away, or to play thieves. That’s what the thief apologists offer as solution. Clearly thieves are overpowered if these are the answers.

Sebrent.3625:

Jonny.9370:

How do I dodge something I can’t see, you say? Well how am I supposed to know whether you are going to hundred blades me immediately or wait till I blow CDs? Are you going to use Bull’s Charge or maybe swap on hammer/mace/shield stun? How will I ever know how when to use my stunbreaker? How do I know what traps you are dropping and when? How do I guess when you decide to shatter your clones? How do I know that my burst won’t be completely negated by your blurred frenzy? How am I supposed to burst if you are just going to pop a pushback as soon as I start? How am I supposed to fight if you are just going to pop fear if I get close?

See? I can whine about how this game makes me play intelligently rather than have every fight an A+B=C encounter, too.

The thing is, you can see the warrior throw a bola. You can see the warrior bull’s charge at you. You can even use a stunbreaker or condition removal to get out of either of them if you failed to evade them. You can see the Hundred Blade’s and dodge roll, block, hit distortion, teleport, etc. depending on your class. People have nothing to indicate even a 0.5 second before when you are going to backstab them. That is the difference. I can react to something that I can see. I cannot react to something that I cannot see except by trying to guess when you are going to backstab or, depending on class, using something like Ride the Lightning to get the hell away from where you stealthed, but that’s letting the Thief force a reset on the fight.

Whether or not you have blown all your stamina and cooldowns when someone uses their high damage attack is a completely different issue.

A large part of GW2s combat that was advertised was using the actual animations in combat as visual cues instead of simply staring at icons. When fighting most classes, they have been quite successful at this. Even when fighting some thieves, it has been very successful. When it comes to the ease by which a Thief can consistently backstab a player in a single fight, how much damage it does, and the lack of any visual indicators they have an anomaly.

Not really true, when I play a warrior like that, I like to make them waste there dodges, or pretend i’m a tanky warrior, then when they least expect it, I bull’s rush/100b them.

Its exactly the same thing a thief does, if they don’t expect it and they have a 0.2 second chance to dodge it.

This usually works best if I start out using a hammer, people love dodging the hammer…

We don’t need to guess what a warrior is going to do. We either see it or see the traits that precede the moves. Not true at all with thieves.

Columba.9730:

We don’t need to guess what a warrior is going to do. We either see it or see the traits that precede the moves. Not true at all with thieves.

How can you see it comming unless he opens up with it? If I’m in melee range (100 meters.) and i’m already initiated the fight, he could assume I don’t even have that ability, then I could suddenly out of nowhere just use it and 100b, he wouldn’t expect it.

Sebrent.3625:

Inconsistency:

• Shadow Refuge stacks stealth
  • If you have stealth, shadow refuge will give you more stealth
  • Allows you to sit in shadow refuge and stack stealth duration

• Mesmer Temporal Curtain does not stack with any other form of swiftness
  • If you have swiftness from anything, running through it gives you nothing
  • Prevents you from running back and forth through it to stack swiftness
• Mesmer Veil does not stack with any other form of stealth
  • If you have stealth from anything, running through it gives you nothing
  • Prevents you from running back and forth through it to stack stealth

And so what? Shadow Protector doesn’t apply Regeneraion if the targets are already under the effect of the boon. Same of that guardian wall spell that gives swiftness.

Wall spells that give a bonus when you cross them never stack probably for coding reasons because you could just wall back and forth through them to get a lots of stacks/duration. Shadow Refuge pulses one stealth stack every second precisely so the total amount of Stealth you get from it is controlled and probably what ANet wanted it to be.

Mister Mustard.7203:

frans.8092:

Sebrent.3625:

…D/D Thieves are quite similar in that they use #1 #2 -or- #3 depending on power/cond build, and #5 and are very effective.

You forget the number 4 to cripple and catch fleeing opponents. Thats … all 5?

Sebrent.3625:

P/D is Pistol w/ Offhand Dagger so #5 is Cloak and Dagger which gives stealth. They then use the pistol stealth attack (Sneak Attack) which has decent direct damage, applies 5 bleeds, and uses 0 initiative

It’s direct damage is quite poor, to use effective you should really focus on the bleeds (+duration, +condition damage), which rules out power based weapons (just about everything else)

… Yes, in some the zergs are horrible, but in others you see people try to chain CCs but they are evaded and the thief stealths …

Blind and CC is the way to go, if a zerg fails to catch a thief it’s really their fault. There’s only a limited amount of endurance and stun breaking. It’s more the zerg’s hive-mind that let’s them escape.

What are you talking about with what type of damage sneak attack is? Whether it’s condition damage or power, it still hurts. There are plenty of videos of P/D thieves trolling about nigh invincible. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend they don’t exist, but don’t make pointless arguments to defend it if so.

Also, how does being in a group help anyone catch up to an escaping thief? Between stealth utilities, blinds, swiftness on dodge, SB 5 / Dagger 2, a thief can run from 50 players as well as 1. If you get caught by the zerg, you probably die, but you still have to get caught.

The best way to beat a P/D thief is just ignore him, its not like he can catch up to you or do anything about it.

@Jonny.9370 and @Daecollo.9578
It is not about cooldowns. It is about actually seeing the ability and having a chance to react. There is a massive difference between reacting to something you can actually see being performed and simply guessing what they will perform next.

Warrior:

• I see bolas so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use condition removal to get out of bolas
• I can see bull’s charge so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use a stunbreaker to get out of bull’s charge
• I can see Hundred Blades so I can dodge/block/etc.

Thief:

• I can see him stealth but not I must guess at what time he is going to backstab me.
  He has 3+ seconds to choose from.
  • 2 Dodge rolls don’t even cover 3+ seconds and leaves you with no stamina to dodge cloak and dagger so then what would you do for the next backstab even if this did work.
  • Blocks don’t last longer than 3 seconds but thieves have multiple ways to get more than 3 seconds of stealth.

My first character rolled was a thief, I’d never played a stealth class in an MMO before and I wanted to try it. 1,000 or so hours played on it, almost constant QQ on the forums about it and three fairly heavy nerfs to the class I decided to roll something else to see what all the fuss was about.

I should point out I was already playing (almost exclusively) mesmer and necro in tPvP but really I don’t see a balance issue in sPvP, it is all about WvWvW (because if we look at thief in PvE they are just a joke, who wants a thief for FoTM? Dungeons? LOL).

So I rolled a mesmer – equally as good as a thief. I rolled a warrior – equally as good as a thief. I rolled a d/d ele – arguably better than a thief.

I still play my thief, I play with 46% crit chance and 104% crit damage, mostly s/d or s/p. I haven’t played d/d for 2 months or so. It has strengths, it has MANY limitations and stealth just isn’t as good as it sounds.

Pretty much all of the classes are capable of some amazing builds and setups, all of those builds sacrifice one thing or another for something else. Every time I read this thread it seems people think thief can have every trait point, every weapon, every utility skill.

What thief really needs is more attention to sword builds and the removal of the stealth combo with h/s and black powder. If you remove the ability to cnd/steal at the same time as well I think the rest is fine if/when culling gets sorted out.

On the flip side though enough of being able to be damaged by pets or hit by channeled skills in stealth and add in a defensive cooldown and I, for one at least, will be fairly happy.

Daecollo.9578:

Mister Mustard.7203:

frans.8092:

Sebrent.3625:

…D/D Thieves are quite similar in that they use #1 #2 -or- #3 depending on power/cond build, and #5 and are very effective.

You forget the number 4 to cripple and catch fleeing opponents. Thats … all 5?

Sebrent.3625:

P/D is Pistol w/ Offhand Dagger so #5 is Cloak and Dagger which gives stealth. They then use the pistol stealth attack (Sneak Attack) which has decent direct damage, applies 5 bleeds, and uses 0 initiative

It’s direct damage is quite poor, to use effective you should really focus on the bleeds (+duration, +condition damage), which rules out power based weapons (just about everything else)

… Yes, in some the zergs are horrible, but in others you see people try to chain CCs but they are evaded and the thief stealths …

Blind and CC is the way to go, if a zerg fails to catch a thief it’s really their fault. There’s only a limited amount of endurance and stun breaking. It’s more the zerg’s hive-mind that let’s them escape.

What are you talking about with what type of damage sneak attack is? Whether it’s condition damage or power, it still hurts. There are plenty of videos of P/D thieves trolling about nigh invincible. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend they don’t exist, but don’t make pointless arguments to defend it if so.

Also, how does being in a group help anyone catch up to an escaping thief? Between stealth utilities, blinds, swiftness on dodge, SB 5 / Dagger 2, a thief can run from 50 players as well as 1. If you get caught by the zerg, you probably die, but you still have to get caught.

The best way to beat a P/D thief is just ignore him, its not like he can catch up to you or do anything about it.

^ Lulz that’s terrible advice.

Daecollo.9578:

Columba.9730:

We don’t need to guess what a warrior is going to do. We either see it or see the traits that precede the moves. Not true at all with thieves.

How can you see it comming unless he opens up with it? If I’m in melee range (100 meters.) and i’m already initiated the fight, he could assume I don’t even have that ability, then I could suddenly out of nowhere just use it and 100b, he wouldn’t expect it.

They can’t come out of nowhere. They don’t have permastealth. Secondly, there are typical sequences we can SEE those. Secondly, thieves haven’t been nerfed much in WvWvW.

Sorry, but there is noway that rangers are equally as good in WvWvW as are thieves. Most thieves admit that.

I dislike the stealth mechanic as it is.

i feel that if you want to give us stealth, you do so for a permanent feature, or a 30 second buff we can use BUT once we are out/attack, we are out for the duration except for using Shadow Refuge.

Of course I do believe that the class would need to be re-balanced after this change because a lot of our defense comes from hiding. So stealth as it is needs to be revisited, it’s not fun for people to play against, and in turn yields a lot of complaints about the class.

If stealth is revisited as I hope it would, we also need to revisit thief mobility. It would need to be increased. It’s hard to imagine a class with twice the survivability of a thief having higher combat mobility even though the thief was branded as a ‘mobile killer’. We must address that.

In WvWvW, thieves already get perma stealth due to culling. Thieves already have great escape tools. The other classes with good mobility also have low health, so I don’t get your points.

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves already get perma stealth due to culling. Thieves already have great escape tools. The other classes with good mobility also have low health, so I don’t get your points.

We’re talking about fixing the class not game bugs.

They already know about game bugs. Please focus.

Sebrent.3625:

@Jonny.9370 and @Daecollo.9578
There is a massive difference between reacting to something you can actually see being performed and simply guessing what they will perform next.

But how do you know to expect a bullrush and look for it from a warrior? Experiance has taught you that most warriors will prep 100b with a snare. You have adapted and this is no longer an issue. My argument is why do people refuse to apply this to thieves as well?

I am not some sort of elitist and will never profess to be some sort of pro, and I don’t want to come across as someone trying to say L2P, but even I know that there are counters to the BackStab. Especially as a thief player myself. One thing I do notice is often times people will see me then suddenly go on the defensive, before the fight even begins. My GC in WvW has a little over 10k hp with 104 crit damage and 14k with 62 crit dmg in sPVP. If you come to me as glass, you will die in 2-4 seconds, but the same goes for me. In other words, don’t always wait for me to initiate because that automatically puts me at an advantage.

I have to say, however, trying to think of it from other perspectives has lead me to think that maybe if Steal was not on a seperate GCD from everything else, there would be less of an issue. As it is now, Mug and CnD occur simultaneously and puts you in the perfect position for BS, effectively nulling the cast time of CnD where you would be visible to the opponent. I think that is what you are trying to tell me.

Sebrent.3625:

@Jonny.9370 and @Daecollo.9578
It is not about cooldowns. It is about actually seeing the ability and having a chance to react. There is a massive difference between reacting to something you can actually see being performed and simply guessing what they will perform next.

Warrior:

• I see bolas so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use condition removal to get out of bolas
• I can see bull’s charge so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use a stunbreaker to get out of bull’s charge
• I can see Hundred Blades so I can dodge/block/etc.

Thief:

• I can see him stealth but not I must guess at what time he is going to backstab me.
  He has 3+ seconds to choose from.
  • 2 Dodge rolls don’t even cover 3+ seconds and leaves you with no stamina to dodge cloak and dagger so then what would you do for the next backstab even if this did work.
  • Blocks don’t last longer than 3 seconds but thieves have multiple ways to get more than 3 seconds of stealth.

The thief is going to backstab you within 2-3 seconds and cloak and dagger you after revealed is gone, if you can’t time this you should play a thief and learn how it works.

You’ve obviously never fought a warrior who saves his skills, if he just suddenly bull’s charges you first, yes its easy to dodge, but if he WAITS and uses it a little later, especially at VERY CLOSE melee range, its almost impossible to dodge. (your also ignoring the shield stun warriors have as well.)

Altie.4571:

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves already get perma stealth due to culling. Thieves already have great escape tools. The other classes with good mobility also have low health, so I don’t get your points.

We’re talking about fixing the class not game bugs.

They already know about game bugs. Please focus.

They are linked. While culling is broken, stealth needs to be adjusted.

Columba.9730:

Altie.4571:

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves already get perma stealth due to culling. Thieves already have great escape tools. The other classes with good mobility also have low health, so I don’t get your points.

We’re talking about fixing the class not game bugs.

They already know about game bugs. Please focus.

They are linked. While culling is broken, stealth needs to be adjusted.

And how are you going to compensate?

Daecollo.9578:

Columba.9730:

Altie.4571:

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves already get perma stealth due to culling. Thieves already have great escape tools. The other classes with good mobility also have low health, so I don’t get your points.

We’re talking about fixing the class not game bugs.

They already know about game bugs. Please focus.

They are linked. While culling is broken, stealth needs to be adjusted.

And how are you going to compensate?

There’s no need to compensate. It’s fixing a bug.