Guild Wars 2

Thadren Calder.1397:

stof.9341:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

4 uses of Unload = 20 initiative used in 3.5s. Care to explain how this is even possible?

Unload has an activation time of 1.75 seconds. Multiplied by 4 is 7 seconds. Haste then makes that 3.5 seconds. With traits thieves have 15 initiative. Opportunist grants a 20% chance to regain 1 initiative with a 1 second cool down. 3 unloads by itself is 24 shots so in 3 seconds your going to get 3 of the 5 more initiative you need for the 4th unload. You naturally regenerate initiative at 1 per 1.33 seconds. so all you need is 2.66 seconds to get 2 more for the final unload burst. Since were talking about 4 seconds of haste we have to work with it sure is easy to get that 5 more initiative for the 4th unload.

Please stop using “Quickness” as part of your burst argument. It doesn’t belong in this thread. This thread is about Thief and it’s gameplay (or was back 20 pages ago). Quickness is not a class specific ability, so if you have a problem with it, please post it in one of the 1000 other threads about Quickness.

As for your argument, yes, we all agree that it is POSSIBLE to do 4 unloads back to back. It’s by no means guaranteed. 20% is 20%. 5 hits with a 20% chance to do something =/= 100% chance of it occurring.

It doesn’t really make sense to give it more C/D. BV needs to be applied and then you have to hit your enemy. Sometimes it even misses its application. It only stuns for 2s, and many other classes have stun skills that last just as long and they take up a utility slot, not an elite slot.

kenshinakh.3672:

It doesn’t really make sense to give it more C/D. BV needs to be applied and then you have to hit your enemy. Sometimes it even misses its application. It only stuns for 2s, and many other classes have stun skills that last just as long and they take up a utility slot, not an elite slot.

1. We’re not talking about other classes.

2. There is a reason WHY it’s an elite skill for a thief -> Because it’s a fight winner for them thus why the only other stun on thief is with pistol whip, and it’s mostly designed to make sure it lands. So like any other fight winning elite or mechanic, it should have a longer C/D, have an actual draw back to being doged/avoided/countred, and be a skill to be choosy with. Not something to be relied on.

and again I really don’t mind the effect of the skill it’s how often it can be used.

3. It does kind of crap out but I think that’s more bug fix area.

Unanimous.1486:

Remove thief stealth skills, add a class skill “stealth”, which will be next to “steal”.
New stealth will last indefinitely, costs 2 initiative to activate, takes 2.33 initiative per second (so in total they’ll lose 1 initiative per second after the natural regeneration of the stat).

No more “I burst, I fail, I stealth, I run”.
This will force them to consider when to use stealth defensively or offensively.

Problem solved.

That would make things worst actually. No need to hit with an ability to go to stealth…unless you put a CD on that new stealth ability. Please realize, thiefs don’t have any kind of protection outside the occasional blind and stealth (no protection, stability, or block, regen is tied to a trait while stealthed). We have a few evades, but most root you in place and don’t have you evading during the full animation (block some damage, but unable to do anything about the rest while the animation finishes). Also, at 2 initiative, this would grant some builds free stealth initiation, with 1 initiative/sec cost.

Wilow.3061:

That would make things worst actually. No need to hit with an ability to go to stealth…unless you put a CD on that new stealth ability. Please realize, thiefs don’t have any kind of protection outside the occasional blind and stealth (no protection, stability, or block, regen is tied to a trait while stealthed). We have a few evades, but most root you in place and don’t have you evading during the full animation (block some damage, but unable to do anything about the rest while the animation finishes). Also, at 2 initiative, this would grant some builds free stealth initiation, with 1 initiative/sec cost.

This is very true, and the heart of the problem. Stealth is unfortunately the crutch fix-all for the class. It’s the entirety of it’s defense AND it’s the catalyst for offense. The class relies on it too much, and it’s thus too strong.

Tulisin.6945:

Thadren Calder.1397:

Unload has an activation time of 1.75 seconds. Multiplied by 4 is 7 seconds. Haste then makes that 3.5 seconds. With traits thieves have 15 initiative. Opportunist grants a 20% chance to regain 1 initiative with a 1 second cool down. 3 unloads by itself is 24 shots so in 3 seconds your going to get 3 of the 5 more initiative you need for the 4th unload. You naturally regenerate initiative at 1 per 1.33 seconds. so all you need is 2.66 seconds to get 2 more for the final unload burst. Since were talking about 4 seconds of haste we have to work with it sure is easy to get that 5 more initiative for the 4th unload.

You’re starting with the false assumption that activation time = the amount of time it takes to fully use an Unload before you can use another one, which is not accurate. Activation time is only loosely related to how long it takes to use an ability, as easy demonstrated by the fact that you cannot use Dancing Dagger 4 times a second, do an entire Pistol Whip in less than a second, or get off two auto attacks a second. Part of the reason that Unload has mediocre DPS is that it actually takes longer than the stated activation time to fully utilize the ability.

Go try it for yourself. This isn’t some guess on my part I have been doing this for months. The only real counter is someone hyped up on mountain dew just itching to push all of their defensive abilities. Which is why it works well in WvW and not in sPvP.

Wilow.3061:

Thadren Calder.1397:

stof.9341:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

4 uses of Unload = 20 initiative used in 3.5s. Care to explain how this is even possible?

Unload has an activation time of 1.75 seconds. Multiplied by 4 is 7 seconds. Haste then makes that 3.5 seconds. With traits thieves have 15 initiative. Opportunist grants a 20% chance to regain 1 initiative with a 1 second cool down. 3 unloads by itself is 24 shots so in 3 seconds your going to get 3 of the 5 more initiative you need for the 4th unload. You naturally regenerate initiative at 1 per 1.33 seconds. so all you need is 2.66 seconds to get 2 more for the final unload burst. Since were talking about 4 seconds of haste we have to work with it sure is easy to get that 5 more initiative for the 4th unload.

Please stop using “Quickness” as part of your burst argument. It doesn’t belong in this thread. This thread is about Thief and it’s gameplay (or was back 20 pages ago). Quickness is not a class specific ability, so if you have a problem with it, please post it in one of the 1000 other threads about Quickness.

As for your argument, yes, we all agree that it is POSSIBLE to do 4 unloads back to back. It’s by no means guaranteed. 20% is 20%. 5 hits with a 20% chance to do something =/= 100% chance of it occurring.

So is haste, the initiative system, and spamable abilities what makes thieves OP? Should thieves lose quickness as an ability? I would be fine with that. As I’ve said before I’d be happy with whatever nerfs and still remain confident playing thief as my main.

Thadren Calder.1397:

Wilow.3061:

Thadren Calder.1397:

stof.9341:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

4 uses of Unload = 20 initiative used in 3.5s. Care to explain how this is even possible?

Unload has an activation time of 1.75 seconds. Multiplied by 4 is 7 seconds. Haste then makes that 3.5 seconds. With traits thieves have 15 initiative. Opportunist grants a 20% chance to regain 1 initiative with a 1 second cool down. 3 unloads by itself is 24 shots so in 3 seconds your going to get 3 of the 5 more initiative you need for the 4th unload. You naturally regenerate initiative at 1 per 1.33 seconds. so all you need is 2.66 seconds to get 2 more for the final unload burst. Since were talking about 4 seconds of haste we have to work with it sure is easy to get that 5 more initiative for the 4th unload.

Please stop using “Quickness” as part of your burst argument. It doesn’t belong in this thread. This thread is about Thief and it’s gameplay (or was back 20 pages ago). Quickness is not a class specific ability, so if you have a problem with it, please post it in one of the 1000 other threads about Quickness.

As for your argument, yes, we all agree that it is POSSIBLE to do 4 unloads back to back. It’s by no means guaranteed. 20% is 20%. 5 hits with a 20% chance to do something =/= 100% chance of it occurring.

So is haste, the initiative system, and spamable abilities what makes thieves OP? Should thieves lose quickness as an ability? I would be fine with that. As I’ve said before I’d be happy with whatever nerfs and still remain confident playing thief as my main.

IMO just remove quickness until the classes all balance out (or get closer then they are now), then give it to EVERY class if you really want to keep it in the game. It’s way too powerful, and has resulted to in many nerfs to various classes that weren’t really needed.

I will also continue to play my thief long after its been nerfed to oblivion (P/D) because I love its play still. I’m just trying to clear up posts that seem erroneous, as I do not want the thief to be nerfed simply because someone assumed what someone else posted was right without actually trying it themselves (all these “I play a thief, so you can believe me when I say the classes is OP. I play another class because the thief was so face roll and I wanted a challange” players).

Thieves aren’t OP. They’re quite on par with other classes if you test them in SPVP where most players know what they’re doing and how to fight. Also, culling isn’t a huge issue there compared to WvW.

I feel like I’m saying this over and over, but thieves don’t need anymore nerfs, at least not until the culling issue is fixed and time is given for players to learn how to fight thieves. I know this because I COULD theoretically beat my thief with my Ele and warrior through just theorycrafting. That doesn’t equate to real world situations, but whenever I see thieves, I’m not afraid of them, and to me who knows the in’s and out’s of my classes, certain nerfs mentioned in this thread would make thieves at a very big disadvantage.

And all the people who claim to be good in WVW… It’s WVW. You have your casual players in there and undergeared players. Even if you’re geared, there’s so many factors that changes how things play out. I’ve taken on so many groups that just aren’t thinking when they play. Some might say “Oh, you’re a thief so duh”, but it’s because the average player is REALLY slow. You run behind them and they take time to turn. You make them chase you in a circle around a house, and they’ll chase you while someone else is just slashing them in the back. You can even just run behind them or on the side of them and they won’t notice you’re there becuase most people look forward and don’t swivel their cameras around…

Stop the nerf bandwagon. Fix the culling bugs, and then wait a bit for things to balance out and for people to learn the game.

Otaur.9268:

Aervius.2016:

Otaur.9268:

You obviously do not understand. It says, armor/toughness does nothing to( lessen the severity of) the damage. Please at the very least learn to read before posting.

" Armor / Toughness does nothing to mitigate the damage and I know this for a fact. " -literally copy/pasted from your comment.

You obviously can’t very plainly see what was written. If you meant something else, you should have typed it. You can’t insult someone for “not reading my intended message” because they read the message you actually posted.

You actually believe armor and toughness help u versus a steal-cnd-bs combo? Please go make an ele, do not use protection, and test it yourself. I know protection works because without it I got hit for over 10k damage by backstab. Then with protection on by same thief backstab did 8001 damage, a damage reduction of 33% (protection). Now if armor/toughness scaled better, wouldn’t that damage change depending on armor? I have run 1800 armor to 3000 armor. The backstab combo does roughly the same damage. Therefore armor and toughness is not scaling well or at all versus high burst, making it pointless. At least on elementalist. Why do you think ele’s basically ignore earth for arcane and water.

Tested and true. I don’t have that problem with my ele since I switch to earth attunement prior to or while being hit. On my Engy-full toughness exotics- I get hit by that amount. Toughness won’t help you against backstab.

Use mistform or dodge. It works wonders against pesky backstabby thieves. I do it plenty of times. Once they miss their initial burst, they’re quite vulnerable.

kenshinakh.3672:

Thieves aren’t OP. They’re quite on par with other classes if you test them in SPVP where most players know what they’re doing and how to fight. Also, culling isn’t a huge issue there compared to WvW.

I feel like I’m saying this over and over, but thieves don’t need anymore nerfs, at least not until the culling issue is fixed and time is given for players to learn how to fight thieves. I know this because I COULD theoretically beat my thief with my Ele and warrior through just theorycrafting. That doesn’t equate to real world situations, but whenever I see thieves, I’m not afraid of them, and to me who knows the in’s and out’s of my classes, certain nerfs mentioned in this thread would make thieves at a very big disadvantage.

And all the people who claim to be good in WVW… It’s WVW. You have your casual players in there and undergeared players. Even if you’re geared, there’s so many factors that changes how things play out. I’ve taken on so many groups that just aren’t thinking when they play. Some might say “Oh, you’re a thief so duh”, but it’s because the average player is REALLY slow. You run behind them and they take time to turn. You make them chase you in a circle around a house, and they’ll chase you while someone else is just slashing them in the back. You can even just run behind them or on the side of them and they won’t notice you’re there becuase most people look forward and don’t swivel their cameras around…

Stop the nerf bandwagon. Fix the culling bugs, and then wait a bit for things to balance out and for people to learn the game.

Even when culling is fixed you will still have pistol condition build thieves disappearing every 5-7 seconds. Culling is not the only issue..restealthing repeatedly on such short interval is the 2nd part of the problem.

An in-depth look into the class is needed. Thieves should only have a stealth on approach. By granting them stealth during the fight it just turns them into the rogue class in every other mmorpg that Anet was trying to avoid. Not only that, but the thief in this game stealthes much MUCH more than any other mmorpg game stealth class.

Stop using the WvW excuse..we all see the thief coming and a lot of us are full exotics..its not that hard to get. If what you say is true about wvw..why are the complaints directly mainly at thieves? Why not at engineers? Or necros? Its the thief class..not everyone else.

The ONLY low CD/spammable stealth skill the thief got is conditional to a 130 range melee attack that has to connect and costs a load of initiative.

Just dodge the C&D.

kenshinakh.3672:

Use mistform or dodge. It works wonders against pesky backstabby thieves. I do it plenty of times. Once they miss their initial burst, they’re quite vulnerable.

Can’t time the dodge appropriately when you can’t see the thief approaching or when he will break out of stealth. You will avoid the 1st backstab but what about the 2nd attempt when they restealth? or the 3rd? or the 4th? What if they don’t blow quickness and wait for you to blow your mist form?

Over the top dps barely affected by the recent balances.

There’s more to the game then just gear. Just saying… Don’t use gear as something that calculates whether you win a fight or not.

P/D thieves disappear, but their DPS is quite low. They’re great against certain classes like some warriors due to bleed cutting through toughness, but a Necro can do an even better job at damaging with damage over times.

Thieves restealth to attack, and because you know that, you can predict their attacks. If you prevent them from stealthing and they’re a build that uses stealth for their main damage combo, then they’re one dead thief. Also, after coming from stealth, they already have 3s of visibility time where they are quite exposed. Then on, TIME yourself. 3s, then dodge and you’ve stopped the thief from stealthing.

You know why the complaints are directly at thieves in WvW? That’s your casual player base. Ask people in sPvP and they’ll just laugh it off because thieves aren’t hard for them. I hear complaints about pretty much all classes. “Oh, he’s a warrior… OP. Oh he’s an engi… OP. Oh, he’s a mesmer… OP…” ETC. In any game, there’s always complaints but some classes get hit on more than others.

That said, my friend is an elementalist, and one of the best I know. He’s not afraid of thieves at all, and he spanks the average thief in WvW, even glass thieves. I can’t say for certain what that says except that a good elementalist can fight thieves and beat them.

Check it out: 21715 damage on a 1681 toughness/2032 hp from a thief in 2 seconds.

3 armor pieces vitality and 3 pieces toughness all exotics with 300 toughness from the defense line. No..quickness wasn’t up..didn’t get a chance to =D

Are we supposed to go all toughness /vitality to survive a 2 second burst? Not really..toughness won’t protect you from over the top damage -unless you can buff protection in time-.

I wouldn’t mind this damage if I could see someone coming instead of them blinking instantly towards me and being able to get away whenever they wanted.

Sheesh..I can’t imagine what the other classes have to do with their lower base toughness and vitality.

Pic attached.

XII.9401:

Check it out: 21715 damage on a 1681 toughness/2032 hp from a thief in 2 seconds.

3 armor pieces vitality and 3 pieces toughness all exotics with 300 toughness from the defense line.

Are we supposed to go all toughness /vitality to survive a 2 second burst? Not really..toughness won’t protect you from over the top damage -unless you can buff protection in time-.

I wouldn’t mind this damage if I could see someone coming instead of them blinking instantly towards me and being able to get away whenever they wanted.

Sheesh..I can’t imagine what the other classes have to do with their lower base toughness and vitality.

Pic attached.

2 secs to get 8 hits on you? Really?

He got 2 C&D off on you, you deserve to die IMO.

XII.9401:

Check it out: 21715 damage on a 1681 toughness/2032 hp from a thief in 2 seconds.

3 armor pieces vitality and 3 pieces toughness all exotics with 300 toughness from the defense line. No..quickness wasn’t up..didn’t get a chance to =D

Are we supposed to go all toughness /vitality to survive a 2 second burst? Not really..toughness won’t protect you from over the top damage -unless you can buff protection in time-.

I wouldn’t mind this damage if I could see someone coming instead of them blinking instantly towards me and being able to get away whenever they wanted.

Sheesh..I can’t imagine what the other classes have to do with their lower base toughness and vitality.

Pic attached.

No offense, but you need to learn how to count time. Take some musical classes and learn rhythm and how to feel beats. It really helps when keeping your timing. Those attacks are not done in 2s, and in the time he does those attacks, you could’ve dodge or go immune instead of standing still.

XII.9401:

Even when culling is fixed you will still have pistol condition build thieves disappearing every 5-7 seconds. Culling is not the only issue..restealthing repeatedly on such short interval is the 2nd part of the problem.

An in-depth look into the class is needed. Thieves should only have a stealth on approach. By granting them stealth during the fight it just turns them into the rogue class in every other mmorpg that Anet was trying to avoid. Not only that, but the thief in this game stealthes much MUCH more than any other mmorpg game stealth class.

Stop using the WvW excuse..we all see the thief coming and a lot of us are full exotics..its not that hard to get. If what you say is true about wvw..why are the complaints directly mainly at thieves? Why not at engineers? Or necros? Its the thief class..not everyone else.

Go to the sPvP forums, there is a reason people are using WvW examples of thief “OPness”. No one thinks thiefs are OP in sPvP. People complain about thieves in WvW because they can probably take advantage of the zerg mentality better then any other class now that AoE is capped at 5 targets.

Granting the thief in combat stealth does not make them like every other “rogue” out there. Actually, it’s the exact opposite. Those other “rogues” out there all have passive stealth, stuns and and evasion outside stealth. Thieves have in combat stealth and…in combat stealth. How does in combat stealth make them like other “rogues”?

As to your photo, nice “in under 2 seconds”. The thief is either a moron for using CnD before the 3sec debuff, or those hits took longer then 2 seconds. Either way, you are still a bad warrior playing his glass cannon toon and complaining that he was unable to land his combo after he Bull Rushed in. Also, not sure why you see a Steal and a Infiltrator’s strike next to each other…nor do I understand why I see him using DD in this 2 second burst pic…I also noticed you won that encounter. Nerf warrior IMO…they should not be able to kill things.

Please stop posting, or at the very least, please stop posting pics as proof.

I luv my thief but i think all the nerfs lately have been unnecessary because the bugs traits etc for all classes need to fixed first so balancing can be effective across all professions.

Hopefully the patch on the 14th Dec will address some these issues.

I would also like to see a sword/sword option instead of just sword for main hand.

I luv how the stealth mechanic works in gw2 dont change it thats why i play a thief

XII.9401:

Check it out: 21715 damage on a 1681 toughness/2032 hp from a thief in 2 seconds.

Here’s your combat log:
Infiltrator’s Strike 1.5k.
Steal (Mug) 3k — this is the only insta-cast part of this whole log; everything else is a regular attack with an animation.
C&D 4k.
Tactical Strike 2k.
Auto-attack 2.5k.
Dancing Dagger 1.5k.
C&D 4.5k.
(You hit him for 1k.)
Auto-attack 2.5k.

The thief’s entire spike was under 10k. You died because he followed it up with a mixture of control and pressure, and used what was likely the last of his initiative on a second C&D as a damage-dump.

I dare say that this is what a combat log should look like.

XII.9401:

Check it out: 21715 damage on a 1681 toughness/2032 hp from a thief in 2 seconds.

3 armor pieces vitality and 3 pieces toughness all exotics with 300 toughness from the defense line. No..quickness wasn’t up..didn’t get a chance to =D

Are we supposed to go all toughness /vitality to survive a 2 second burst? Not really..toughness won’t protect you from over the top damage -unless you can buff protection in time-.

I wouldn’t mind this damage if I could see someone coming instead of them blinking instantly towards me and being able to get away whenever they wanted.

Sheesh..I can’t imagine what the other classes have to do with their lower base toughness and vitality.

Pic attached.

Judging by your combat log this thief used 8 abilities, according to you in just 2 seconds… according to you. Are you seriously going to stick by that story?

P.S. My thief has more health than you

Wow, now the S/D pairing is OP? It probably felt like 2 seconds due to the tactical strike dazing you, but if we’re now complaining about one of the least used builds (at least that I’ve encountered in spvp) what weapon combo will be left?

Maugetarr.6823:

one of the least used builds

S/D is pretty rare in WvW (where it gets a bit more power, thanks to C&D’s bigger damage and Tactical Strike lasting two seconds instead of 1.5 — but where thieves also have to spec for bigger fights unless they just want to hang out being semi-useless in the boonies).

I play S/D in WvW. I’ve seen a few others running around with S/D, including one of our commanders. I don’t think I’ve ever actually fought another S/D thief, though.

XII.9401:

An in-depth look into the class is needed. Thieves should only have a stealth on approach. By granting them stealth during the fight it just turns them into the rogue class in every other mmorpg that Anet was trying to avoid. Not only that, but the thief in this game stealthes much MUCH more than any other mmorpg game stealth class.

Combat stealth gives the thief two basic options:

A. Immediately break stealth via an attack, in which case stealth only acts as a focus breaker and attack setup.
B. Stay in stealth to reap long-term benefits (regen, condition removal, etc from traits). In which case they’re giving up offensive uptime for those benefits.

The only case in which combat stealth gives a huge advantage is when the thief is using Case B and their opponent doesn’t press the attack. By not punishing their decision to get stealth benefits instead of offensive uptime, you’re basically giving the stealthed person a no-cost break. Against someone that continues to stay aggressive and attack the thief the tradeoff of being beat on for 3 seconds for condition removal and some regen is actually a pretty bad one.

tl;dr – People don’t understand that staying stealthed means not being able to attack while your opponent is free to do so.

…this thread looks like it’s only been about people crying about the thief’s stealth ability… wasn’t it supposed to be about suggestions about what could be done to improve the class? And suggestions that aren’t completely ridiculous?

all these posts are starting to sound the same… stealth, stealth, stealth…culling culling culling…

Did anyone else realize that its not the ONLY defense we have? Did people forget that we can be evading maniacs? i mean come on… we’re about speed too, not just hiding from people all the time. it’s what makes a thief a thief, we’re fast, twitchy, steal your belongings when you aren’t paying attention, hard to catch S.O.Bs… not just dumb wandering assassins…

RedX.3160:

…this thread looks like it’s only been about people crying about the thief’s stealth ability… wasn’t it supposed to be about suggestions about what could be done to improve the class? And suggestions that aren’t completely ridiculous?

Way back 20 pages ago, yes. I’m almost 100% sure the mods are just using this as a dump for all the qq threads, which I’m fine with. Cleans up the thief forums a lil bit.

Unanimous.1486:

Remove thief stealth skills, add a class skill “stealth”, which will be next to “steal”.
New stealth will last indefinitely, costs 2 initiative to activate, takes 2.33 initiative per second (so in total they’ll lose 1 initiative per second after the natural regeneration of the stat).

No more “I burst, I fail, I stealth, I run”.
This will force them to consider when to use stealth defensively or offensively.

Problem solved.

lol you rly want give us perm invis with out any cd ? xD

natural reg is enough to hold it enough + signet + patience traint + reg from another traint xD I love that idea perm invis to my p/p build 3>

Tulisin.6945:

tl;dr – People don’t understand that staying stealthed means not being able to attack while your opponent is free to do so.

Also: the more you are in stealth, the more your enemies cooldowns decrease. Stealthing puts pressure on you.

It doesn’t matter. It’s clear thieves are gonna keep getting nerfed until the QQing stops and I can replace my floormat with mine.

I’ve been on the internet talking to people from around the world since the internet was just becoming popular (around 1993)… and I’ve learned one thing more profound than any other:

People are wildly irrational and unintelligent, and the percentage of individuals with an IQ over 134 is probably not nearly as high as 2%.

shrugs

The idea of a perma stealth button would be good. Use only out of combat, consume little ini/sec, chance to break on recieve dmg, chance to be spotted from players and when used the steal go on a decent C/D. That way you won’t be able to use both mug and stealth and you will have two choice to approach an opponent. (Stole the idea from WAR’s Witch elf/Wicth Hunter)

P.S. It would be much better if people who complain about OPness stop persuading themselves that they only lose to OP classes and not OP players.

So let us all enjoy our last moments with our current builds. Let anyone who hate thiefs still lose to nerfed thieves!!!

PvE

- When I stealth, why are channeled skills from the enemies still firing on me? This is extremely annoying when they keep turning with you, so you can’t get behind them.
- When I stealth, why do in example Skill Challenges reset so quickly? It’s almost no time available at all to get behind a enemy.
- When I stealth, why do the enemies sometimes dash back to their original position, making it again impossible to really get behind them for the short duration you’re in stealth. Some walk, that is perfect.

All of these are minor issues, and is in my opinion minor annoyances than something that needs fixing quickly. All can be in ways worked around.

PvP

My Backstab damage is ridiculously high (8k+). Pair that with a quick Heartseeker (5k+) and most professions are dead before they know what hit them. This needs fixing. On the flipside, Thief is a very squishy profession when pulling those numbers, and if damage is lowered, they do need a slight buff in defense (VERY slight, not much).

Mug->Backstab->Heartseeker is in most cases racking up 16k+ damage within a couple seconds. Not on every target, but on a lot of them. Add Basilisk Venom to that and the player that’s on the receiving end were unable to react at all.

I try to avoid doing too much of that type of gameplay, simply because I know how annoying it is to be on the receiving end of it. It’s why I run with Dagger + Pistol and not the one-shot setup of Traits in example.
____

It is however worth noting, that Thiefs can be countered fairly easily, and once you’ve played one for a while, you know how to deal with them fairly efficiently. I think a large part of the complaints is not having played the profession and learning how to counter. Investing some point into Toughness, as any profession, won’t hurt either. That helps you against everyone, not just the Thief.

For those players who are reading this who have troubles with, e.g., stealth and Thief, don’t stop your attacks, keep spamming your skills out as soon as a Thief is invisible, you are in 8/10 engagements going to still deal a good bit of damage to them, and they’ll pop out of stealth in a Downed state. This is one mistake I see a lot of players make. They stop attacking because the Thief went invisible.

Otaur.9268:

Aervius.2016:

Otaur.9268:

You obviously do not understand. It says, armor/toughness does nothing to( lessen the severity of) the damage. Please at the very least learn to read before posting.

" Armor / Toughness does nothing to mitigate the damage and I know this for a fact. " -literally copy/pasted from your comment.

You obviously can’t very plainly see what was written. If you meant something else, you should have typed it. You can’t insult someone for “not reading my intended message” because they read the message you actually posted.

You actually believe armor and toughness help u versus a steal-cnd-bs combo? Please go make an ele, do not use protection, and test it yourself. I know protection works because without it I got hit for over 10k damage by backstab. Then with protection on by same thief backstab did 8001 damage, a damage reduction of 33% (protection). Now if armor/toughness scaled better, wouldn’t that damage change depending on armor? I have run 1800 armor to 3000 armor. The backstab combo does roughly the same damage. Therefore armor and toughness is not scaling well or at all versus high burst, making it pointless. At least on elementalist. Why do you think ele’s basically ignore earth for arcane and water.

That’s not what I said, but you’re proving my point.

I was pointing out that you leveled an insult against someone who read your original post, verbatim.

Also, if you’re trying to prove a point you shouldn’t put words into people’s mouths. I think the only problem here is that you’re far too personally invested into your character/it’s digital success.

But more to your comment, I wouldn’t do that-
1.) Defensive bonuses are meant to be taken as a cumulative effective, meaning simply toughness alone does nothing. However, a high Toughness + Vitality build with protection gets hit for that oh so terrifying Backstab rotation as if the Thief had replaced his daggers with wet noodles.
2.) If I’m playing an ELEMENTALIST the last thing in the world that I would rely on to counter a Backstab Thief would be passive defenses. You have access to 3 cooldowns that break stun while securing momentarily increased defensive posturing. If I wanted to roll a class that relied on passive defenses, I’d play a Warrior.

Suggestion: Fix dancing dagger. I think that its damage is pretty good, but the initiative cost should be reduced. The tradeoff: Reduce the range on it slightly. I love the idea of whipping daggers into a pack of pve mobs. But its kind of useless when I can switch to shortbow and dish out more damage. Makes dagger aoe pitiful. However, I understand its application is to cripple. I’ve just always disliked the idea of throwing a dagger at someone to cripple them. It was like this in WoW…sick of it.

I disagree with posts saying that our backstab crit builds need to be nerfed. Any player that runs a glass cannon build is going to drop a target real quickly. Yes, that person will pump out 15k+ in a matter of seconds. But that person can also be taken down fairly quickly as well. Me, I am running a backstab crit build, but not as glass cannon as most. I chose traits to increase vitality, when I could have increased dmg. I chose traits to make sure that I never run out of initiative, instead of choosing more up front damage.

Its all how you build your character. Me, I chose the path that will leave me with less grief in the end(a bit more survivability, and never ending initiative…unless Im seekerspamming at the end).

Also, I like steal, but it feels very underwhelming compared to some classes class-specific abilities. Not sure what can be done to fix this, but compared to an eviscerate, or deathshroud(yes I went there, if traited…aoe heal, a few seconds of no HP loss, decent damage especially traited…its fine), its underwhelming.

In WvW what I love most about thieves is the ability to absolutely ruin zergs. My guild couldn’t counter them, so we joined them. With two groups of five Thieves, we absolutely destroy full zergs of 30-40 people.

Dagger Storm by itself, from one person isn’t much, but you throw in 5-10 Thieves, all utilizing Spider venom, the damage is amazing, since you’re adding bleed, and poison to your targets, and it seems Dagger Storm hits more than 5 targets during its duration.

Because you chose the proper target prior to your Dagger Storm, and used “Steal” on a Warrior, to get; “Whirling Axe”, you can now enter into another series of AoE damage, that is nearly as potent as Dagger Storm.

The key to both of these abilities is to move away from those who can melee, and create as much confusion as possible while you’re doing damage. My bunker Thief build can stay full health the entire time, regardless of damage from the zerg. (I’m not sharing this build. <grins>)

Once 5 or more thieves have used these two abilities, you have a lot of targets at, or below 50% health. One dodge roll into stealth; (I use Blinding Powder), not sure what the others use, and each of us Thieves can claim one target. I tend to go for the lower levels first, which only requires me to pick a target with a green arrow. Once we’ve claimed, and killed a target, we step into stealth with CnD, and dodge any damage coming our way.

At this point, many are injured, people have died (no need to stomp, just DPS them down), and the zerg is in a panic.

From this point on people are dying in groups of 3-9 depending on the size of our Guild Thief group(s) with little to no danger to ourselves. Some of our Thieves like to switch to shortbow to utilize; “Infiltrators Arrow”, or switch to Sword(anything) to utilize; Infiltrator’s Strike" to move around the zerg rapidly, and to cause even more confusion.

Having access to multiple ways to stealth, thanks to how “Combo Fields” work, we can easily man handle zergs, and wipe them out.

Thieves are NOT balanced, and if you’re not willing to take a nerf (I’d be fine with it), then you need to champion the idea of giving buffs to other classes so that they can at least compete.

At this point in time there is no need to defend the Thief class, but this is the internet and every game up until this point someone has always defended the overpowered classes, until it got to a point the developers destroyed the class(es), because those playing them refused to give proper feedback on how to fix the issues.

cesmode.4257:

I disagree with posts saying that our backstab crit builds need to be nerfed. Any player that runs a glass cannon build is going to drop a target real quickly. Yes, that person will pump out 15k+ in a matter of seconds. But that person can also be taken down fairly quickly as well. Me, I am running a backstab crit build, but not as glass cannon as most. I chose traits to increase vitality, when I could have increased dmg. I chose traits to make sure that I never run out of initiative, instead of choosing more up front damage.

Its all how you build your character. Me, I chose the path that will leave me with less grief in the end(a bit more survivability, and never ending initiative…unless Im seekerspamming at the end).

Also, I like steal, but it feels very underwhelming compared to some classes class-specific abilities. Not sure what can be done to fix this, but compared to an eviscerate, or deathshroud(yes I went there, if traited…aoe heal, a few seconds of no HP loss, decent damage especially traited…its fine), its underwhelming.

Stealth is the best defense in the game, so a glass canon Thief is MUCH safer than say a glass canon Warrior. Not only that, but the best defense in the game are the procs available to crit builds.

jkctmc.8754:

Stealth is the best defense in the game, so a glass canon Thief is MUCH safer than say a glass canon Warrior. Not only that, but the best defense in the game are the procs available to crit builds.

Total Invulnerability is the best defense in the game, not Stealth.

Glass canon Warrior got more armor and twice the HP of glass canon thief too. And invulnerability skills, and 100% block chance for a time skills.

stof.9341:

jkctmc.8754:

Stealth is the best defense in the game, so a glass canon Thief is MUCH safer than say a glass canon Warrior. Not only that, but the best defense in the game are the procs available to crit builds.

Total Invulnerability is the best defense in the game, not Stealth.

Glass canon Warrior got more armor and twice the HP of glass canon thief too. And invulnerability skills, and 100% block chance for a time skills.

If a Warrior pops 5 second invulnerability, it is on a 90 second recast timer, and during that time a Thief can remain stealthed, which isn’t on a long recast timer, and avoid any damage they might have taken.

Once that 5 seconds has past, the Warrior is easy pickings, while us Thieves can reset any mistakes by stealthing, and dodging away. If you’ve poisoned your target, they remain in combat for the full duration of your poison.

I can burst a Warrior in 4-5 seconds, regardless of their hit points, and I’ve hit as hard as 4k-5k against bunker builds with 3500 armor.

Steatlh still trumps anything in the game in regards to defense. Dodge comes in a close second, which us Thieves have both of. No one in this game should ever die to AoEs, which completely negates classes like the Elementalist, and to some extent, the Necromancer.

Vigor + 40% endurance Regen food >>>>>> most damage. Stealth + Vigor + 40% endurance regen food negates all damage.

I’m just puzzled – why do I never ever have issues with thieves in sPvP, but in WvW they seem utterly broken?
I’m playing one myself, with a non-glass cannon build. Am I not allowed to have fun unless I put 30 points in Shadow Arts and equip Toughness gear? I’m not complaining about their squishiness, I appreciate the playstyle that comes with it and in fact have zero issues against any other classes than other thieves. Rather, the damage that is attainable with them in WvW seems completely out of whack. Just a few minutes ago I was hit for a 7k damage steal followed by a 8k CnD, without vulnerability, by the same one thief thrice (it was in different places, I didn’t just run blindly to the same spot again after respawning).
That just kills it. My fun, my will to WvW, my will to play GW2. Are two-shotting classes that require zero skill (Just spamming abilities F1+5, and when it’s not dead yet 2) fun in ANet’s eyes?
As I said, I’m genuinely puzzled. Is it possible through consumables or guild buffs? Then nerf those, make them scale inversely rather than linearly or remove/revamp them outright.

Edit: Aaaaand a twelve thousand damage backstab by the same thief. He had no might boons or consumables, but 9 stacks of the power sigil, and an Assassin’s Signet (unknown if activated). Done with WvW for today.

stof.9341:

jkctmc.8754:

Stealth is the best defense in the game, so a glass canon Thief is MUCH safer than say a glass canon Warrior. Not only that, but the best defense in the game are the procs available to crit builds.

Vigor + 40% endurance Regen food >>>>>> most damage.

Vigor doesn’t stack with the Regen food.

Jamais vu.5284:

I’m just puzzled – why do I never ever have issues with thieves in sPvP, but in WvW they seem utterly broken?

No food in sPvP and the berserker gear there isn’t pure zerk either but a mix of power/precision/crit/vitality

XII.9401:

Check it out: 21715 damage on a 1681 toughness/2032 hp from a thief in 2 seconds.

3 armor pieces vitality and 3 pieces toughness all exotics with 300 toughness from the defense line. No..quickness wasn’t up..didn’t get a chance to =D

Are we supposed to go all toughness /vitality to survive a 2 second burst? Not really..toughness won’t protect you from over the top damage -unless you can buff protection in time-.

I wouldn’t mind this damage if I could see someone coming instead of them blinking instantly towards me and being able to get away whenever they wanted.

Sheesh..I can’t imagine what the other classes have to do with their lower base toughness and vitality.

Pic attached.

Shutdown again XII I’ve seen your posts so many times and this combat log again and people keep telling you that your wrong.

Why is it so hard for you to go make a level 1 thief take him to the mist and actually SEE with your own eye what cloak and dagger is and how it works how much initiative it costs its really not hard.

Mug 900 range if not traited thats instant combo with CnD.

The next attack from a P/D is sneak attack then 2 auto attacks maybe more depending on spacing you know what the next attack is? Every thief or person that played a thief can tell you what that is.

If you stop the second CnD you pretty much have the fight they will waste initiative because you blinded them, or blocked it. They can refuge or blinding powder if they have it or use the heal. If you stand there waiting for him to come out of stealth lie hur dur then yea your gonna get spanked again. It takes a p/d thief a long time to kill a bunker guard/warrior.

Also you can’t count either.

spif.7580:

stof.9341:

jkctmc.8754:

Stealth is the best defense in the game, so a glass canon Thief is MUCH safer than say a glass canon Warrior. Not only that, but the best defense in the game are the procs available to crit builds.

Vigor + 40% endurance Regen food >>>>>> most damage.

Vigor doesn’t stack with the Regen food.

I never said it did. Darn that reading, and all.

When you don’t have Vigor up, which you can’t have up 100% of the time, the added 40% endurance regen you get from food allows you to dodge more.

Stealth plus the increased dodge rate gives us Thieves the best defense in the game, without giving up anything in its place. I won’t even get into the benefit of the survivability with procs that trigger off crits being far, far better than what you can get with Toughness, and Vitality builds.

I can still hit Toughness builds with 3500 Armor for 4k-5k, and they have no chance to ever kill me. That is absurd considering they give up pretty much all the damage they can do, for added survivability, and I give up nothing, and have much better survivability, and MUCH better damage. That’s why I laughed hard when people complained about the 1600 heal Guardians got on dodge roll, WHICH GOT NERFED, but no one cried about the 9-12k hits from Thieves, or the 16k-22k hits from Warriors, which still exists. This game, and its players crack me up.

I’m sorry, but I have seen to many games get destroyed because of balance issues, and have seen too many classes get destroyed because the people playing them refused to admit there were any problems.

I don’t want to see that happen to this game. I love the Thief, and I have to admit there needs to be some form of changes, not just to the Thief, but to many areas of this game. I’m going to help, and be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

<scratches head> <shakes his head in wonder> <grins at his thoughts>

jkctmc.8754:

a Thief can remain stealthed … and avoid any damage they might have taken.

Stealth only works this way against NPCs and really bad players. Thieves don’t take damage during stealth because people don’t try to attack them, not because stealth is good at preventing damage.

Tulisin.6945:

jkctmc.8754:

a Thief can remain stealthed … and avoid any damage they might have taken.

Stealth only works this way against NPCs and really bad players. Thieves don’t take damage during stealth because people don’t try to attack them, not because stealth is good at preventing damage.

You’re wrong.

You can not target us while we are in stealth, and NO ONE but new players gets hit by AoEs. There is no possible way to die to AoEs in this game, unless you just stand there. Because of this, if you go back to reread my previous posts, thieves have the best defense in the game with steatlh, especially when you factor in DODGES, which are even better once you make a greater use of Vigor, and 40% Endurance Regen Food.

So yes, Steatlh prevents all single target damage that requires a target. The benefits of dodge prvents all other forms of damage, and the fact that a red circle shows on the ground for most AoEs, it is extremely hard to do damage to us. I die maybe once in 500 kills, and that is only because I was playing tired, or drunk, and I made a massive mistake.

The only way your post would make sense is if we couldn’t move once we went stealth.

Do you know how they balance stealth in virtually every other game out there? They add see stealth to one class, or ALL classes. So unless you want another game to go down that line of thinking, I suggest all of us Thieves get on board with the fact the class needs balanced, and help the developers come up with a fair way to balance the class.

A lot of the imbalances are from WvW. WvW isn’t exactly a good place to balance against. Maybe different WvW stats/scaling than the rest of the game? As far as mechanics go, stealth is fine. Test it in sPvP to see it clearly.

Here’s my elaboration on WvW thief balancing. You can buff yourself with so many things. Food can give you an edge in power, crit, etc. Some of them even do things such heal on crit or restore endurance. In a glass thief, you got high crit so you can usually run with Omnoms and heal while you fight. Another thing is the sigils you put on your weapon. Thieves can pre-stack 25 power stacks from a weapon sigil by killing mobs on the map before engaging.

Add the culling issue, and you have glass cannons that have high damage + decent mobility/hiding usage.

However, realize that the same can be applied to ALL classes. Like yesterday, I ran into a guardian and warrior. I didn’t win the fight, and they took my hits pretty well and knew what to do against a thief. They didn’t AOE and just attacked me when I appeared. Now, in another fight, I was going against 3-4 players. I could immediately tell they’re not skilled because I would hit them, go through them, and they’re still not facing me or slowly turning to face me.

I’m pointing out that there’s a huge gap in experience and any adjustments to thieves should be done VERY carefully.

By the way, thieves do die to AOEs. Many thieves use Shadow Refuge when they are low on HP. Most of the time, they die from AOEs in that circle of theirs. Also, AOE is more of a tool for putting pressure on a thief and push them to move a certain way.

Many abilities (like Warrior or Ele), can be used without a target. However, I would say it is better to NOT use your ability and keep your cool. You can predict when thieves reappear and hit them accurately, time your dodges, cc, etc. Of course, WvW is a different case due to so many people of various skill level. But I’m saying from a theoretical point of view of a skilled player, you can beat the stealth.

jkctmc.8754:

Tulisin.6945:

jkctmc.8754:

a Thief can remain stealthed … and avoid any damage they might have taken.

Stealth only works this way against NPCs and really bad players. Thieves don’t take damage during stealth because people don’t try to attack them, not because stealth is good at preventing damage.

You’re wrong.

You can not target us while we are in stealth, and NO ONE but new players gets hit by AoEs. There is no possible way to die to AoEs in this game, unless you just stand there. Because of this, if you go back to reread my previous posts, thieves have the best defense in the game with steatlh, especially when you factor in DODGES, which are even better once you make a greater use of Vigor, and 40% Endurance Regen Food.

So yes, Steatlh prevents all single target damage that requires a target. The benefits of dodge prvents all other forms of damage, and the fact that a red circle shows on the ground for most AoEs, it is extremely hard to do damage to us. I die maybe once in 500 kills, and that is only because I was playing tired, or drunk, and I made a massive mistake.

The only way your post would make sense is if we couldn’t move once we went stealth.

I think he was referring to the fact that NPCs will stop attacking the area when you stealth, whereas a decent player will keep spamming the area will auto attack waiting for the chain to advance to indicate a hit. Also if all AoEs are so ineffective, I guess we should just tell all the other classes to not even use them. If you’re continually on defense while in stealth, you’re taking pressue off your opponent, letting their abilities cool down, so while they might be missing you with the AoE, they are at least rendering you useless. While you’re spending all this time dodging too, your time in stealth is dwindling, allowing them to once again use single target abilities once you reappear without any endurance left. Not to mention any sort of CC can still stop you in your tracks.

jkctmc.8754:

So yes, Steatlh prevents all single target damage that requires a target.

Which is nothing in GW2, because GW2’s combat system isn’t target based. Some players have become very reliant on locked tab targets to do damage, and stealth punishes their refusal to learn how to actually fight very harshly. Someone spamming projectiles into the ground when faced with a stealthed opponent is an excellent indicator that they never learned to fight without a locked target.