Guild Wars 2

Atticus.7194:

Personally I think they should nerf thieves to kitten until culling is fixed but not for the reason you think. From experience thieves tend to be rather… vocal, so if the collective whole of thieves suddenly feel the awful pain of their class suffering they’ll raise one hell of a cry and maybe MAYBE convince the development team to get around to addressing culling with some semblance of urgency (come on, it does seem like this has been going on a LONG time and it is a game breaking (in WvW at least) issue)

Laiboch.4380:

Better sustained damage and burst on par with warriors and most other burst damage classes: Issue resolved

Why does everyone use warriors as the baseline for massive DPS, they’re not the highest DPS class in either burst or sustained, I don’t get it.

I really could argue the point that warriors are the highest burst damage class in the game, and close to the highest sustained damage as well. That is unless you can show me any other class that can hit multiple targets for close to 28K damage in under 4 seconds. In their “Glass Cannon” build a warrior can do upwards of 18K with a SINGLE ATTACK both in melee and at the same range as a rangers long bow to boot, and still has better damage mitigation, survival and 10K more HP than a glass cannon Thief. If Warriors are “Balanced” where they are at then thieves are clearly not even close to balanced.

People do not seem capable of understanding how the class works. What a Thief has to sacrifice to do the same thing many other classes can do with out having to sacrifice anything at all, but still not do it nearly as well.

Thieves are quickly becoming relegated to obscurity and are even flat out refused groups in some Dungeons because they die to easy and cannot compete with the damage of many other classes. Put them side by side with most other classes and you see:

A class with with 6 to 10K less hit points than any other classes “Glass Cannon”. Even when they are not running a glass cannon build……

A class that does less damage regardless of build.

A class that has less survivability, No invulnerability skill, One condition removal skill that takes 3 seconds to kick in only if the trait is taken. Which usually means you are dead any way.

Has to sacrifice almost all of its below par melee damage to deal below par condition damage.

And has had so many of its abilities nerfed that players are forced to play gimmick builds like C&D or glass cannon spam builds in order to have any value or success in WvW or Spvp.

Thieves have many abilities that cost 4-5 initiative that do LESS DAMAGE than their auto attack… Pistol whip is an excellent example of this. Death blossom deals less damage and 1/4 the bleed duration/damage than a warriors auto attack with a long sword. Yes a warrior does more melee and bleed damage with their auto attack than a thief using 5 initiative skill.

No other class in the game is required to sacrifice as much to accomplish less.

from a pve perspective, thieves have to choose either squishy-ness or low dps. would take my guardian or ele anyday.

pvp however, is a different story. in wvw especially, where there’s plenty of space to run around in and not having to be confined to a little circle on the ground. thieves are probably the class taking the least risk when starting a fight:

1) pick target
2) stealth and wait for opportunity e.g. fighting npc or other player
3) shadowstep, stun of choice, unload combo or spam HS
4) if target dies, profit
5) if target puts up a fight, stealth and repeat or run away

everyone else has to pretty much commit when choosing fights. sure, the ranged classes might escape with a slow/knockback and running, the mobility-specced ele can just run forever, mesmers can mesmerise with clones etc. but you can still target them and eventually catch up if you use the correct combination of weapons, skills and traits, and are skilled enough. and then there’re cooldowns.

thieves just vanish, and.. that’s it. if you’re really observant, you can see where homing projectiles/pets/summons are going to give you a clue as to the general direction, but i suppose that’s what you have to expect from “skill-based action MMOs” nowadays, eh?

this sort of reminded me of a multiplayer game called bloodline: champions. now, that’s a skill-based action multiplayer game. stealth was very well-implemented. lots of audio and visual clues e.g. unique sounds (headphones mandatory!), visible projectiles from stealthed opponents. and cooldowns, the lack of which sets thieves apart in gw2.

of course, the design of this top-down-view, team-based arena game is totally different from a chaotic MMO, but maybe there’s something Anet can learn from it design/balance-wise?

edit: just thought of something. make thieves somehow declare (very loudly) that they are going into stealth in the middle of combat and give their enemies a chance to interrupt.

Laiboch.4380:

Atticus.7194:

Personally I think they should nerf thieves to kitten until culling is fixed but not for the reason you think. From experience thieves tend to be rather… vocal, so if the collective whole of thieves suddenly feel the awful pain of their class suffering they’ll raise one hell of a cry and maybe MAYBE convince the development team to get around to addressing culling with some semblance of urgency (come on, it does seem like this has been going on a LONG time and it is a game breaking (in WvW at least) issue)

Laiboch.4380:

Better sustained damage and burst on par with warriors and most other burst damage classes: Issue resolved

Why does everyone use warriors as the baseline for massive DPS, they’re not the highest DPS class in either burst or sustained, I don’t get it.

I really could argue the point that warriors are the highest burst damage class in the game, and close to the highest sustained damage as well. That is unless you can show me any other class that can hit multiple targets for close to 28K damage in under 4 seconds. In their “Glass Cannon” build a warrior can do upwards of 18K with a SINGLE ATTACK both in melee and at the same range as a rangers long bow to boot, and still has better damage mitigation, survival and 10K more HP than a glass cannon Thief. If Warriors are “Balanced” where they are at then thieves are clearly not even close to balanced.

People do not seem capable of understanding how the class works. What a Thief has to sacrifice to do the same thing many other classes can do with out having to sacrifice anything at all, but still not do it nearly as well.

Thieves are quickly becoming relegated to obscurity and are even flat out refused groups in some Dungeons because they die to easy and cannot compete with the damage of many other classes. Put them side by side with most other classes and you see:

A class with with 6 to 10K less hit points than any other classes “Glass Cannon”. Even when they are not running a glass cannon build……

A class that does less damage regardless of build.

A class that has less survivability, No invulnerability skill, One condition removal skill that takes 3 seconds to kick in only if the trait is taken. Which usually means you are dead any way.

Has to sacrifice almost all of its below par melee damage to deal below par condition damage.

And has had so many of its abilities nerfed that players are forced to play gimmick builds like C&D or glass cannon spam builds in order to have any value or success in WvW or Spvp.

Thieves have many abilities that cost 4-5 initiative that do LESS DAMAGE than their auto attack… Pistol whip is an excellent example of this. Death blossom deals less damage and 1/4 the bleed duration/damage than a warriors auto attack with a long sword. Yes a warrior does more melee and bleed damage with their auto attack than a thief using 5 initiative skill.

No other class in the game is required to sacrifice as much to accomplish less.

Not even going to go into all the specifics of how you’re mistaken here but I will say that you’re opinion of warrior DPS is way off from anything resembling the truth and I do admire how you deliberately avoided mentioning any of a thieves strengths in your attempt to make them look maligned and looked down upon (which they’re not), that was… impressive.

Also while I can agree that thieves could use some love in PvE what really concerns me is their massively lopsided abilities in WvW and that is what I would really REALLY like addressed (it’s making me avoid this game like the plague, I hate getting taken out by a crappy thief just because he found me at an inopportune time knowing that I have no recourse against him)

Yes, Warrior does sooo less DPS…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKy67S6uvNU

Atticus.7194:

Laiboch.4380:

Atticus.7194:

Personally I think they should nerf thieves to kitten until culling is fixed but not for the reason you think. From experience thieves tend to be rather… vocal, so if the collective whole of thieves suddenly feel the awful pain of their class suffering they’ll raise one hell of a cry and maybe MAYBE convince the development team to get around to addressing culling with some semblance of urgency (come on, it does seem like this has been going on a LONG time and it is a game breaking (in WvW at least) issue)

Laiboch.4380:

Better sustained damage and burst on par with warriors and most other burst damage classes: Issue resolved

Why does everyone use warriors as the baseline for massive DPS, they’re not the highest DPS class in either burst or sustained, I don’t get it.

I really could argue the point that warriors are the highest burst damage class in the game, and close to the highest sustained damage as well. That is unless you can show me any other class that can hit multiple targets for close to 28K damage in under 4 seconds. In their “Glass Cannon” build a warrior can do upwards of 18K with a SINGLE ATTACK both in melee and at the same range as a rangers long bow to boot, and still has better damage mitigation, survival and 10K more HP than a glass cannon Thief. If Warriors are “Balanced” where they are at then thieves are clearly not even close to balanced.

People do not seem capable of understanding how the class works. What a Thief has to sacrifice to do the same thing many other classes can do with out having to sacrifice anything at all, but still not do it nearly as well.

Thieves are quickly becoming relegated to obscurity and are even flat out refused groups in some Dungeons because they die to easy and cannot compete with the damage of many other classes. Put them side by side with most other classes and you see:

A class with with 6 to 10K less hit points than any other classes “Glass Cannon”. Even when they are not running a glass cannon build……

A class that does less damage regardless of build.

A class that has less survivability, No invulnerability skill, One condition removal skill that takes 3 seconds to kick in only if the trait is taken. Which usually means you are dead any way.

Has to sacrifice almost all of its below par melee damage to deal below par condition damage.

And has had so many of its abilities nerfed that players are forced to play gimmick builds like C&D or glass cannon spam builds in order to have any value or success in WvW or Spvp.

Thieves have many abilities that cost 4-5 initiative that do LESS DAMAGE than their auto attack… Pistol whip is an excellent example of this. Death blossom deals less damage and 1/4 the bleed duration/damage than a warriors auto attack with a long sword. Yes a warrior does more melee and bleed damage with their auto attack than a thief using 5 initiative skill.

No other class in the game is required to sacrifice as much to accomplish less.

Not even going to go into all the specifics of how you’re mistaken here but I will say that you’re opinion of warrior DPS is way off from anything resembling the truth and I do admire how you deliberately avoided mentioning any of a thieves strengths in your attempt to make them look maligned and looked down upon (which they’re not), that was… impressive.

Also while I can agree that thieves could use some love in PvE what really concerns me is their massively lopsided abilities in WvW and that is what I would really REALLY like addressed (it’s making me avoid this game like the plague, I hate getting taken out by a crappy thief just because he found me at an inopportune time knowing that I have no recourse against him)

This is the issue for me. Nearly every visit to WvWvW winds up annoying me now because I constantly have to deal with thieves whom I can never see. Many of us just avoid WvWvW now because of this. We need clear deadlines on the culling fix since thieves seem to disproportionately benefit from it. If it can’t be fixed, then other measures are needed. It’s sad that we have to run in packs of 5 to survive one thief. It may be fun for thieves, but it’s miserable for others.

Henrik.7560:

Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.

Don’t forget also yhat they loose conditions when entering stealth too.

StugLyfe.2134:

Henrik.7560:

Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.

Don’t forget also yhat they loose conditions when entering stealth too.

Speed is capped at 33%, the 50% speed does not make a difference.

Thieves can run far, but they must burn and save there utility slots and initiative for such.

StugLyfe.2134:

Henrik.7560:

Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.

Don’t forget also yhat they loose conditions when entering stealth too.

Wow. I didn’t know that they lost conditions when they stealthed. That’s a nice perk.

Daecollo.9578:

StugLyfe.2134:

Henrik.7560:

Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.

Don’t forget also yhat they loose conditions when entering stealth too.

Speed is capped at 33%, the 50% speed does not make a difference.

Thieves can run far, but they must burn and save there utility slots and initiative for such.

Speed is capped at 33% out of combat. In combat the +50% move speed allows you to move faster than with swiftness. Try in out in game if you don’t believe me.

There are two major problems with the Thief as far as balance:

1) The decision to make stealth part of active combat (Cloak & Dagger) is probably one of the most, if not THE MOST, ill-conceived idea in MMO history. It gives such a hugely unfair advantage and when you combine that with the terrible culling, it makes the Thief a guaranteed “i win” class.

2) I personally have six level 80s and none of them have the ability to dish out damage even close to the Thief — D/D has the ability to do over 20,000 damage in less than two seconds. I am not sure what justification was given to allowing one profession to dish out DPS at this abusrdly high rate, but it has no place in this game if you ask me because it’s not on-par with any other class.

The Thief needs a serious overhaul — allowing ANY class to stealth as PART OF COMBAT should have at least have a 10 second cooldown.

StugLyfe.2134:

Henrik.7560:

Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.

Don’t forget also yhat they loose conditions when entering stealth too.

They lose conditions ( damaging ones) only by using theur healing skill Hide in Shadows (30 s cooldown). And if thief wants to lose conditions upon entering stealth he MUST TRAIT FOR IT.

Caelib.2497:

The Thief needs a serious overhaul — allowing ANY class to stealth as PART OF COMBAT should have at least have a 10 second cooldown.

Yes, it’s about time anet admitted an “all-initiative, zero cooldown” approach was pretty fail at this point. One way to potentially balance stealth (and DPS) problems is to add cooldowns just like every other profession.

Henrik.7560:

Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.

Exactly! I don’t understand the need for stealthed thieves to have 150% speed in combat. They already have that damage doesnt break stealth, and they can stealth whilst in combat. In that other game, rogues move slower in stealth and have to spec to move normal speed! I have a lot of respect for Anet devs as they have done so many great things in this game, but Blizzard and even Mythic implemented the stealth class much better than Anet. The way thieves are now is an extremely negative play experience for non thief players and will mean less people playing spvp and wvw as a result.

Ugh, what a pain to read this. WoW and Warhammer, yea there are two games worth comparing to… WoW rogue was nerfed into oblivion and was the reason I left the game altogether, I could never tell what the game was going to be like at any given time. A lot of “balancing” going on that will NEVER please everyone. The vitriol spewed on the Blizz forums regarding stealth completely invalidates much of the arguments people here use as it being a better system. Warhammer? Are you kidding me? I see how much people enjoy such a wonderfully balanced game these days, oh wait…

And now GW2, thieves are being excluded from dungeons and pretty much have to go to WvW to play the game – but people whine and complain that they do. So if you people weren’t such kittens about dungeon groups, you wouldn’t have a lot of them in WvW.

One fyi as well, stealth classes are supposed to take advantage of you when you are vulnerable, otherwise the encounter is in YOUR favour. If I run into a mesmer or a warrior and they know I’m coming, it doesn’t look so good for me.

That’s no excuse. Many of us hate dungeons anyway, so it doesn’t make sense to make the thieves op’d just to make up for dungeon issues.

They didn’t make them “op’d” to make up for it, it’s an explanation for why people are seeing a lot more of them in WvW. The fact I had to actually explain that to you means you are rather closed minded when it comes to your game complaints.

Korrtz.3510:

They didn’t make them “op’d” to make up for it, it’s an explanation for why people are seeing a lot more of them in WvW. The fact I had to actually explain that to you means you are rather closed minded when it comes to your game complaints.

Uh no…thats not why you see them in WvW, you see them in WvW because they are an easy roaming class and are quite able to win most 1v1s they come across and aren’t to bad in zergs. Don’t be so quick to judge someone else when you can’t get your facts straight.

P.S. every time i go to do a dungeon i have 1 or 2 thieves with me and i see them in dungeons all the time, your argument is invalid.

No, just honest. I don’t want thieves nerfed into oblivion, but I am tired of seeing people leave wvwvw in disgust because of perma stealth.

Columba.9730:

No, just honest. I don’t want thieves nerfed into oblivion, but I am tired of seeing people leave wvwvw in disgust because of perma stealth.

I have left many of times because 1 or 2 perma stealth thieves are camping the spawn, usually I can kill the 1 with my ranger but its a long fight and gets annoying when he keeps running back.

Edit: and yes i can say perma stealth because culling allows it for now.

Hospis.4607:

In that other game, rogues move slower in stealth and have to spec to move normal speed!

Which other game is that then?

Warhammer, stealth doesn’t affect movement speed.

WoW, Stealth doesn’t affect movement speed for Rogues and they actually gain extra movement speed while stealthed (They move about 10-25% faster than most other classes while stealthed) and for Druids they can Glyph to remove the stealth movement penalty and move 30-55% faster than other classes while stealthed, even when not Glyphed the movement penalty from their Prowl is countered by their movement speed boosts.

As it is, there is an increasing number of games that are giving stealth classes boosts to movement speed while stealthed.

they unstealth when they take damage or when they damage others in those games though.

Waits for some sort of nerf.

First off, all the people saying thieves are OP and needs nerfing, have you guys played in SPvP where things are actually equal and there’s no culling issue? People have been repeating it over and over about thieves not being an issue in real PvP situations. All the complaint is in WvW as far as I can tell. Now, what’s a more accurate way for Anet to balance around? WvW, where many weak players are often at? Or from SPvP where more competitive PvP players are at?

That’s a something for you guys asking for an overhaul on thieves to think about.

kenshinakh.3672:

Waits for some sort of nerf.

First off, all the people saying thieves are OP and needs nerfing, have you guys played in SPvP where things are actually equal and there’s no culling issue? People have been repeating it over and over about thieves not being an issue in real PvP situations. All the complaint is in WvW as far as I can tell. Now, what’s a more accurate way for Anet to balance around? WvW, where many weak players are often at? Or from SPvP where more competitive PvP players are at?

That’s a something for you guys asking for an overhaul on thieves to think about.

There’s zero evidence that Spvp has better players. Very presumptuous on your part.

Karolis.4261:

I didnt read all of this ofc but for those that say stealth should brake on damage i can only say to eat a kitten lol. Do you realize how different is thief from other games rogues ( wow for example, where stealth drops on damage) and how different is game on itself, its aoe, auto attack mechanic ? While it works finr on wow, in gw2 it would completally destroy thief class. And that is not thieves defending, thats common sence.

This actually makes little sense. So perma stealth is ok because the mechanics are different? I’m sorry, but I don’t think it’s ever ok to be invisible throughout a fight.

kenshinakh.3672:

Waits for some sort of nerf.

First off, all the people saying thieves are OP and needs nerfing, have you guys played in SPvP where things are actually equal and there’s no culling issue? People have been repeating it over and over about thieves not being an issue in real PvP situations. All the complaint is in WvW as far as I can tell. Now, what’s a more accurate way for Anet to balance around? WvW, where many weak players are often at? Or from SPvP where more competitive PvP players are at?

That’s a something for you guys asking for an overhaul on thieves to think about.

Theres so much more to factor in when doing WvW then spvp…..in WvW you got to factor in food buffs and people can tweak their stats so much more differently in pve/wvw then in spvp. Like if i made a trapper ranger in spvp it will never be good as my trapper in WvW because of how much ive tweak his stats to make them have the perfect toughness, power, precision, vitality, and condition damage….you cant get that out of amulets. So stop comparing spvp to WvW pvp.

Edit: Also certain skills have been changed to where they act differently in Spvp then in WvW pvp. Example: Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only and Tactical Strike: This skill’s damage has been increased by 10% in all formats. This skill’s daze duration has been reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP.

Casey.9687:

kenshinakh.3672:

Waits for some sort of nerf.

First off, all the people saying thieves are OP and needs nerfing, have you guys played in SPvP where things are actually equal and there’s no culling issue? People have been repeating it over and over about thieves not being an issue in real PvP situations. All the complaint is in WvW as far as I can tell. Now, what’s a more accurate way for Anet to balance around? WvW, where many weak players are often at? Or from SPvP where more competitive PvP players are at?

That’s a something for you guys asking for an overhaul on thieves to think about.

Theres so much more to factor in when doing WvW then spvp…..in WvW you got to factor in food buffs and people can tweak their stats so much more differently in pve/wvw then in spvp. Like if i made a trapper ranger in spvp it will never be good as my trapper in WvW because of how much ive tweak his stats to make them have the perfect toughness, power, precision, vitality, and condition damage….you cant get that out of amulets. So stop comparing spvp to WvW pvp.

sPvP/tPvP is what all of the PvP in GW2 is balanced around, the fact that there are more variables involved within WvW doesn’t mean that there isn’t a legitimate point of comparison between the two.

Fixes are needed, only the guys who think that rolling thief made em pros over night, but if they are gonna nerf thieves until the culling issue gets a proper solution, if that will ever happen, DO NOT nerf them so the other guys playing something besides D&D or P&D don’t get screwed over, playing as a thief that relies less on stealth is a pain in the kitten in many large scale fights and also in small scale ones, a problem due to the low survivability. Please don’t screw them over like you did when you nerfed, without using any rational logic, Pistol Whip.

A-net made most thief weapon sets crap and or nerfed them, and untouched the one that needed to be looked at if they can’t fix culling.

For reasons sake, there a ton of swashbuckling armors/weapons etc, yet these are the worst thief sets/styles? Some of us love being backstab goons, but about 75% would loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove love love to be something else.

Also, your classic counter to a “thief” is a “ranger type,” and your “ranger types” are nothing but free kills to good thieves 1v1 wvw.

And im here wondering why www gear for badges have P/T/V stats and not berserker ones. Thing about it before you post more qq about thiefs burst ( or warrior burst, or mesmer burst, or engi burst ( yea man, they do burst), or ele burst or any kiiten burst in www)

No nurfs are need with the thief. Thieves are being played like intended.

I just read an idea on stealth that is worth posting here. The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible (or maybe semi-visible, like allies see a thief while in stealth). Think about a small radius around the character on where the thief appears when enters it.

Unlike other ideas on nerfing stealth, I really like this one. I think it would increase the skill needed for achieving a good result as a thief, but would not break the profession. It would be very interesting, I would like to be challenged like that in my thief.

It has also a logical argument: even if someone is invisible, you would probably feel/hear anyone moving that close to you. Fighting a thief would be less annoying and people would probably stop calling us overpowered.

I really don’t think it would break the profession. We would only have to be more cautious about positioning, adding more skill needed to master the class.

kenshinakh.3672:

Waits for some sort of nerf.

First off, all the people saying thieves are OP and needs nerfing, have you guys played in SPvP where things are actually equal and there’s no culling issue? People have been repeating it over and over about thieves not being an issue in real PvP situations. All the complaint is in WvW as far as I can tell. Now, what’s a more accurate way for Anet to balance around? WvW, where many weak players are often at? Or from SPvP where more competitive PvP players are at?

That’s a something for you guys asking for an overhaul on thieves to think about.

I dont see why they cant balance for both?
Have no cooldown on stealth in Spvp for you leet players and limit it more in WvW (where the culling problem actually resides) for us people who dont give 2 hoots for Spvp

brunohstein.9038:

…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …

Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …

Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?

You talk like you stay in stealth while in melee combat and it is not true. While playing D/D, for example, you will enter stealth to land a backstab and not much else. After that you will have your debuff.

And I don’t think stealth should break. You would stay in stealth all the time, semi-appearing just when you get that close to the opponent. Dodge back and you are invisible again. Also, the enemy would only partially see you, like your allies can do (https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/27729/gw635.jpg).

I don’t think it would break any build a thief can use.

brunohstein.9038:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …

Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?

You talk like you stay in stealth while in melee combat and it is not true. While playing D/D, for example, you will enter stealth to land a backstab and not much else. After that you will have your debuff.

And I don’t think stealth should break. You would stay in stealth all the time, semi-appearing just when you get that close to the opponent. Dodge back and you are invisible again. Also, the enemy would only partially see you, like your allies can do (https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/27729/gw635.jpg).

I don’t think it would break any build a thief can use.

We talking 130-160 range?

brunohstein.9038:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …

Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?

You talk like you stay in stealth while in melee combat and it is not true. While playing D/D, for example, you will enter stealth to land a backstab and not much else. After that you will have your debuff.

Your suggestion was to break stealth simply by being close, so you’d basically land C&D, stealth and immediately become revealed, without ever getting around to backstab. And even without revealed debuff, you can never land a backstab on anyone who’s able to see you, unless they’re complete fools, so you’d either have to toss the requirement to hit from behind and just always give the full backstab damage.

You can not have semi-stealth, it just doesn’t work because being visible, even slightly, is simply being visible.

Dual.8953:

brunohstein.9038:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …

Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?

You talk like you stay in stealth while in melee combat and it is not true. While playing D/D, for example, you will enter stealth to land a backstab and not much else. After that you will have your debuff.

And I don’t think stealth should break. You would stay in stealth all the time, semi-appearing just when you get that close to the opponent. Dodge back and you are invisible again. Also, the enemy would only partially see you, like your allies can do (https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/27729/gw635.jpg).

I don’t think it would break any build a thief can use.

We talking 130-160 range?

Yes.

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …

Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?

You talk like you stay in stealth while in melee combat and it is not true. While playing D/D, for example, you will enter stealth to land a backstab and not much else. After that you will have your debuff.

Your suggestion was to break stealth simply by being close, so you’d basically land C&D, stealth and immediately become revealed, without ever getting around to backstab. And even without revealed debuff, you can never land a backstab on anyone who’s able to see you, unless they’re complete fools, so you’d either have to toss the requirement to hit from behind and just always give the full backstab damage.

You can not have semi-stealth, it just doesn’t work because being visible, even slightly, is simply being visible.

It works in other games. I don’t see why this one is so special.

frans.8092:

You can not have semi-stealth, it just doesn’t work because being visible, even slightly, is simply being visible.

I think the idea is to essentially copy WoW’s stealth via making a stealthed thief visible to a player that they are close to (Probably also having it also only work if the thief is in front of the target)

The stealthed player is still in stealth and can use stealth skills on targets that can see them, it’ll just make it so that thieves that run up in the face of someone (Also anyone who stealths mid-combat…) will be spotted in stealth.

To be honest, I’ve been playing as if this is the case anyway (Too much time playing stealth classes in other games that use similar mechanics)

Also: This won’t fix anything. Culling will still be a problem as it is now. All it would do is remove Thieves escape tool thus removing some of the reason to have stealth as a defence mechanism…

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …

Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?

You talk like you stay in stealth while in melee combat and it is not true. While playing D/D, for example, you will enter stealth to land a backstab and not much else. After that you will have your debuff.

Your suggestion was to break stealth simply by being close, so you’d basically land C&D, stealth and immediately become revealed, without ever getting around to backstab. And even without revealed debuff, you can never land a backstab on anyone who’s able to see you, unless they’re complete fools, so you’d either have to toss the requirement to hit from behind and just always give the full backstab damage.

You can not have semi-stealth, it just doesn’t work because being visible, even slightly, is simply being visible.

Not true.

First, you would still be able to backstab people, because they would only have a small fraction of time to counter it, but it would give them the possibility that doesn’t exist now.

Second, if the player succeed in dodging a backstab because he saw the almost invisible thief, he deserved it. He would have to be alert all the time to spot the thief and evade in time.

It is not a class breaker, just a possibility to counter the stealth ability.

brunohstein.9038:

First, you would still be able to backstab people, because they would only have a small fraction of time to counter it, but it would give them the possibility that doesn’t exist now.

Thief could never land a backstab because anyone who isn’t unspeakably bad would be able to turn with the thief and face them at all times.

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

First, you would still be able to backstab people, because they would only have a small fraction of time to counter it, but it would give them the possibility that doesn’t exist now.

Thief could never land a backstab because anyone who isn’t unspeakably bad would be able to turn with the thief and face them at all times.

In WvWvW, not true. Especially with culling and with tons of other enemies. It would just be a little more challenging than now.

Columba.9730:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

First, you would still be able to backstab people, because they would only have a small fraction of time to counter it, but it would give them the possibility that doesn’t exist now.

Thief could never land a backstab because anyone who isn’t unspeakably bad would be able to turn with the thief and face them at all times.

In WvWvW, not true. Especially with culling and with tons of other enemies. It would just be a little more challenging than now.

I agree. It would not be a cheap kill anymore. The skill needed to land a backstab will be more consistent with the damage it does.

Columba.9730:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

First, you would still be able to backstab people, because they would only have a small fraction of time to counter it, but it would give them the possibility that doesn’t exist now.

Thief could never land a backstab because anyone who isn’t unspeakably bad would be able to turn with the thief and face them at all times.

In WvWvW, not true. Especially with culling and with tons of other enemies. It would just be a little more challenging than now.

Off course they can, if they can’t follow someone trying to run around them they shouldn’t be playing PvP, not even Wvw. But then, that level of player is exactly the type that is calling for these ridiculous nerfs.

frans.8092:

Columba.9730:

frans.8092:

brunohstein.9038:

First, you would still be able to backstab people, because they would only have a small fraction of time to counter it, but it would give them the possibility that doesn’t exist now.

Thief could never land a backstab because anyone who isn’t unspeakably bad would be able to turn with the thief and face them at all times.

In WvWvW, not true. Especially with culling and with tons of other enemies. It would just be a little more challenging than now.

Off course they can, if they can’t follow someone trying to run around them they shouldn’t be playing PvP, not even Wvw. But then, that level of player is exactly the type that is calling for these ridiculous nerfs.

My main and only is a thief. I don’t have any problems in saying that the current stealth is a little cheap. I just want a fair and fun game. Having to avoid enemies while in stealth would be a good addition to the class.

To those thinking it would be a good idea to make the thief slightly visible while in stealth, I would suggest talking your thief to sPvP with a friend, joining a party with them, then joining an empty server and playing 1v1 with them. They will see you the way you see yourself in stealth and you’ll learn just how useless stealth becomes… Also with a balanced build(0/20/30/20/0, mix of berzerkers armor and knights jewelry), backstab damage is nothing special and crits at just over 4k max on everthing that’s not a green up arrow.

brunohstein.9038:

My main and only is a thief. I don’t have any problems in saying that the current stealth is a little cheap. I just want a fair and fun game. Having to avoid enemies while in stealth would be a good addition to the class.

I forgot we were invulnerable while in stealth.

Could you do me a favor and post a video of you being OP and stomping everyone, requiring a ridiculous nerf like this? I only ask because I don’t believe you. Just run wvwvw with a recorder running and show us your 3v1 OPness. I don’t think you’ll do that, but whatever…

The only issue people seem to be coming up with is burst (l2p) and not being able to kill the thief. Culling is the problem there. You people seem to have no idea what it is actually like to play a thief, and I think it is hilarious…

Maugetarr.6823:

To those thinking it would be a good idea to make the thief slightly visible while in stealth, I would suggest talking your thief to sPvP with a friend, joining a party with them, then joining an empty server and playing 1v1 with them. They will see you the way you see yourself in stealth and you’ll learn just how useless stealth becomes… Also with a balanced build(0/20/30/20/0, mix of berzerkers armor and knights jewelry), backstab damage is nothing special and crits at just over 4k max on everthing that’s not a green up arrow.

You would be visible all the time to your friend and that’s not the idea.

brunohstein.9038:

You would be visible all the time to your friend and that’s not the idea.

Well it is effectively the same since you have to be in melee range to use C&D, you world still be visible, and if you used shadow refuge, they would have a big target that says walk in here to see me. The only thing left that would truly hide you is blinding powder (40 sec cooldown), or comboing with a smoke field (BPS + heartseeker @ 8 initiative or the smoke wall+heartseeker). Since you would be in close combat using your thief and the idea is to see the thief when he is close to you, it is at least a decent measure off how implementing a visible stealth mechanic would affect thief gameplay.

dancing dagger lost 50% damage, and cloak and dagger got a 33% nerf for structured pvp. cluster bomb ate a 15% damage nerf. all the relevant nerfs I can think of at the moment.