Guild Wars 2

There are obvious pros about the class and I dont see a need to post those since they do not require attention!

Cons:
1.Adjust the time you are in stealth with the downed state #3. It is something like, one second. Completely useless in any situation, PVE or PVP.
2.Make P/P more viable in PVE. Maybe I just never learned how to properly play this build but I always felt initiative starved, even if I wasn’t chaining unloads. Still, your #1 source of damage will be unload. When you aren’t unloading, the gameplay feels very slow.

Sifu.6527:

STRanger.5120:

Eodwen.2613:

Piedplat.3597:

the stealth mode is a joke, more time on the “cant-be-stealth” debuff . (sorry cant remember the name I cant see it, the time is short on it…)

http://youtu.be/7799to8aGcQ

I dont know if he’s hacking or not. But if is not, seriously that class and any class with stealth is really OP…

The revealed debuff is 3 seconds and the stealth can go up to 3 seconds if you trait it. WvsWvsW is known to have the issue of not showing the target player right away. That is in fact a wvsw issue and not a class issue.

^^This

Seriously ppl, don´t post this complain over and over again, it has been told a thousand times before, that this is not Stealth problem, but the server/rendering issue. Therefore it has nothing to do with the class or any other class with stealth abilities, got it?
Thanks for finally understanding this.

Acutally, the server/rendering issue is only 1/2 of the problem.

It is a stealth mechanic problem, or at least in my opinion. The reveal debuff only applies if the thief attacks from stealth regardless if the thief is in combat or not. You can CnD for 3 sec of stealth or 4 sec if traited, wait for stealth to end and CnD again for another 3-4 sec, then you can use Hide in the shadow for another 3-4 sec. By this time you have enough init for another CnD. (this is just an example as there are different combinations for extending stealth).

You add in server/rendering issue in WvW which gives thieves a .5-1 sec delay coming out of stealth…now you can see how frustrating it is to fight a thief.

Is it working as intend? Probably but I can’t say for certain. Maybe they will fix it where all stealth triggers reveal once it ends. Who knows. In the meantime, deal with it.

If you’re dying to nothing but C&D spam, then I got some news for you!

Annoyance, and frustration =/= OP. That’s like me saying: mesmer is OP because they can make so many illusions, stealth and teleport.

cesmode.4257:

1.Adjust the time you are in stealth with the downed state #3. It is something like, one second. Completely useless in any situation, PVE or PVP.

I thought so, too, but then I realized you can use it to disrupt stomps. Just gotta start it when their wind-up starts.

It’s not great, but it’s better than nothing.

The underwater version is pretty pointless. You can’t be stomped underwater anyway, so what does it actually do?

ASP.8093:

cesmode.4257:

1.Adjust the time you are in stealth with the downed state #3. It is something like, one second. Completely useless in any situation, PVE or PVP.

I thought so, too, but then I realized you can use it to disrupt stomps. Just gotta start it when their wind-up starts.

It’s not great, but it’s better than nothing.

The underwater version is pretty pointless. You can’t be stomped underwater anyway, so what does it actually do?

The underwater stealth can be used in PvE to deaggro mobs, since you can move while downed (start moving away, stealth and continue to swim away, this is usually enough that the mob will turn away and let you self rez). I agree the water stealth is useless in PvP.

Pistol whip is inferior to auto-attack. Deals less damage and roots the player. It can’t even be used defensively on reaction since the invincibility frames have a long start up and end before the end of the root. Combined with virtually every boss and champion in the game having defiance, using this skill is begging to be punished.

The damage used to be worth the risk. Now you can just sit on 1 and re-actively dodge to get bigger, safer damage.

Please restore this skill to the way it was. All of the QQ in sPvP about pw was due to it being augmented by Haste. Shorten the duration on that utility or let players figure out counters like you did in GW with IWAY, air/earth/curse/trap spiking, or guild lord ganking, instead of rendering an entire dual skill useless.

Also, Basilisk Venom should be reworked. It doesn’t even qualify as an elite any more. Numerically, tripwire is a better skill. If the target can’t break the stun, then they are controlled longer by tripwire, if they can break the stun then they still have a five second condition from the trap, it has half the cast time and a 15 second shorter cool down. If the unbreakable stun wasn’t working out, then just go back to the drawing board with it instead of making one of the thief elites, and their only underwater option, worse all around than their low tier utility skills.

Pistol Whip still has invulnerability frames, interrupts mobs and does 9 hits in quick succession making it far superior to autoattacks for Signet of Malice and procing stuff that procs on crits.

As it is currently, it’s an attack that is safer than autoattacks and more multihit but less mobile for the same DPS. I cannot say it’s a bad skill as it stands but it remains underwhelming.

Basilisk Venom shouldn’t be considered an elite skill, to be honest, they should turn Signet of Shadows into an elite skill, its much better then most other signets and it would give Thieves more access to traits like: +40 Precision per unused signet.

I’m seeing so much hate here for the venoms and it’s completely bewildered me. Upon discovering my venom build I’ve been totally bossing content (as opposed to getting crushed – as previously happened).

WITH REGARDS TO BASILISK VENOM – please for the love of God DO NOT REMOVE THIS SKILL! It’s an excellent way to keep another venom in my toolbar – and a 45s cooldown for an elite? It’s amazingly useful, especially when leeching venoms is applied – got 2 regular venoms, Basilisk Venom and Caltrops as my slot skills. Really really works a charm. I actually had so much more of an issue with the “blind” build – just seemed totally ineffectual, mostly when combating ranged mobs/groups of mobs.

Top weapon combos for me – Dagger/Dagger (although admittedly I never use #5 except for escape purposes), Shortbow for AoE and range…

Can’t get the hang of swords, maybe it’s just the playstyle doesn’t suit me (and there’s no reason why everything should suit me) but I find Pistol Whip to feel… too static somehow. Daggers just feel more fluid in terms of rolling/leaping around.

Guns could probably do with increased damage (for the abysmal rate of fire) but otherwise turn out very useful.

Thieves are great in that they are a class that are actually hard to learn to play effectively – this IS a good thing. Having an advanced class where you need to actually do some thinking to succeed with gives such a sense of achievement when you find something that works!

Honestly, there’s very little about the thief that needs changing (perhaps a little more group utility? Not many skills are useful to the whole dungeon party for example)

People just need to find a way to make the thief work for them and realise TRAITS ARE IMPORTANT. Used to think thieves were UP, now they sit quite nicely in the middle (survivability being the main thing people need to think about).

Really Anet, congrats on making such a fun and interesting class! (P.S. my thief isn’t even my main! I just love it to bits, becoming more and more played)

stof.9341:

Pistol Whip still has invulnerability frames, interrupts mobs

It does have the invincible frames and the interrupt but they are still meh because of the start-up and duration. You cannot use pw to interrupt on reaction unless its a skill with a reeeaaallllyyy slow wind-up. Head-shot is a much more reliable interrupt when you are reacting instead of trying to anticipate. And if you miss the interrupt then you are rooted and going to be punished.

Same story with the invincibility frames. They have a delay and don’t last for the duration of the animation. You can’t use them defensively at all. You can’t even rely on them to protect you from a whiffed interrupt. Because of the time between the initial hit and evade start-up.

stof.9341:

and does 9 hits in quick succession making it far superior to autoattacks for Signet of Malice and procing stuff that procs on crits.

Most of the sigils that proc on crit have a cool down time. They can’t trigger more than once every 2-10 seconds. So the most you get, assuming you crit on the very first hit and the very last, would be two triggers. And if you are using those sigils your crit chance should be high enough to not need pw to get two crits 3-5 seconds time.

What good does the signet of malice heal do when you get hit for 5k by a champion because you were rooted or it missed your invincibility frames?

stof.9341:

As it is currently, it’s an attack that is safer than autoattacks and more multihit but less mobile for the same DPS. I cannot say it’s a bad skill as it stands but it remains underwhelming.

Its not safer than auto-attacks. A full auto attack chain does as much damage as pw in a marginally longer amount of time, but still allows for full mobility. The damage nerf really took away any incentive to use this skill during any threatening encounter. Bandits in queensdale…sure spam it all day long. Using it in explorable dungeons…practically a death sentence with little payoff.

You are not very rational here. PW is less mobile than autoattacks, but the range one those is still an issue. If the mob doesn’t flee at full speed, the mobility is of very little use in PvE. The 5k attack from that champion? If you got hit during PW, no amount of moving while doing autoattacks would have put you out of range anyway. Either you interrupt your autoattack chain to dodge or you get hit. Same for PW : interrupt and dodge or get hit.

The PW interrupt itself. It’s not much yes. In PvE it’s something that is completely random and hard to control out of very specific and rare situations. Still, when it connects at the right time, it’s beneficial so the net effect is reduced damage received in the long run anyway.

All in all, I stand my ground : any PvE situation where you could have just done the autoattack chain uninterrupted, you could have done one PW for the same results. Safer even because you’d get more heath in the process, evade some attacks and interrupt some others.

In short. Any situation where PW isn’t safe to use is also a situation where melee isn’t safe in the first place so autoattack wouldn’t be better.

Im beginning to think you do not actually play a thief. O.O

With a steady sword and steady pistol my average pistol whip was:
36 + 68 + 68 + 68+ 36 + 36 + 36 + 36 + 36 = 420

My average three hit auto attack chain was:
163 + 163 + 143 = 469

These results are easily reproducable using steady weapons. Now, I would like you to also hit pistol whip and try to dodge. You can’t. You are rooted. The only way to break it is by burning initiative or a cool-down to cancel in to another skill.

The invincibility cannot be relied on since you are using it predictively. You could be hit by a mobs power attack before the frames start, or after the frames end, both windows in which you are locked in place by the skill.

Where-as if you were just normally attacking, you get more damage and can dodge or simply walk out of AOE.

In dungeons against champions or veterans melee is always safe as long as you can re-actively dodge. PW is never safe because the mobs have not a single kitten to give about your stun or invincibility. They care that you being stuck there makes you a tasty treat. Especially Mossman, Alpha, Graveling King, Lieutenant Kohler, and the Zealot. As they all have very fast attack skills that can beat pw to its invincibility, or long duration attacks that will outlast your evasion and hit you when its done.

Despite all that, my problem isn’t with the guessing game and stickiness involved with the skill. It used to be a worthwhile gamble for the substantial damage it did. Infiltrator’s Strike + Pw + shadow return used to be a favorite combo of mine on dungeon elite mobs. My problem is since the nerf, there is no reason to take that risk. Auto attack gives you more options, makes you less vulnerable, does more damage and saves you five initiative.

AcidicVision.5498:

Now, I would like you to also hit pistol whip and try to dodge. You can’t. You are rooted. The only way to break it is by burning initiative or a cool-down to cancel in to another skill.

Try taking a step first. Then you can dodge normally. Same way as you’d break out of ressing someone. It’s a bit annoying to do but doesn’t require using any resources.

AcidicVision.5498:

Pistol whip is inferior to auto-attack. Deals less damage and roots the player. It can’t even be used defensively on reaction since the invincibility frames have a long start up and end before the end of the root. Combined with virtually every boss and champion in the game having defiance, using this skill is begging to be punished.

I disagree, I think there are good reasons to use PW instead of auto attack.

The defiance stacks on the boss/champion are precisely why I would use pistol whip instead of auto-attack, it helps the group push interrupts in dungeons and such. For open world encounters where defiance stacks go higher, I don’t think it matters what you do, the monster’s death is inevitable.

The root isn’t a problem, if you need to move you can just tap a direction to cancel.

Depending on the enemy it’s often feasible to time the PW so that you evade their attacks, which saves you some endurance.

ASP.8093:

AcidicVision.5498:

Now, I would like you to also hit pistol whip and try to dodge. You can’t. You are rooted. The only way to break it is by burning initiative or a cool-down to cancel in to another skill.

Try taking a step first. Then you can dodge normally. Same way as you’d break out of ressing someone. It’s a bit annoying to do but doesn’t require using any resources.

Theres a problem with that also, that may or may not be a bug. You can move and dodge before the first hit connects but that doesn’t cancel the skill. The flurry of swings still happens and will even cancel a dodge.

Try hitting 3 and then taking a step and dodging. To see what im talking about. Mid dodge you snap back into the pw animation and need to re-move and dodge out of it. If you hit pw and see danger coming (Kohlers whirlwind attack for example) the only safe ways to escape are to weapon swap/dodge, roll for initiative, or headshot/dodge.

Thats part of the gamble of using the skill, which just to re-iterate, is not my core issue. The risk is perfectly reasonable IMO as long as the damage has a payoff (ie, more than the auto-attack chain). It used to. It doesn’t any more.

AcidicVision.5498:

Theres a problem with that also, that may or may not be a bug. You can move and dodge before the first hit connects but that doesn’t cancel the skill. The flurry of swings still happens and will even cancel a dodge.

Do a double-tap if the flurry hasn’t started.

voidwater.2064:

I disagree, I think there are good reasons to use PW instead of auto attack.

The defiance stacks on the boss/champion are precisely why I would use pistol whip instead of auto-attack, it helps the group push interrupts in dungeons and such.

Just a friendly tip, if you are trying to remove defiance stacks to help your group you should not be using PW. Headshot has a greater range, instant activation, no root, is a combo finisher and uses one less initiative. PW is unsafe for that and the worst possible skill you could be using to burn down defiant.

AcidicVision.5498:

Headshot has a greater range, instant activation, no root, is a combo finisher and uses one less initiative. PW is unsafe for that and the worst possible skill you could be using to burn down defiant.

Range is irrelevant when I am in melee. The root as I said before is not a problem either. I don’t feel unsafe when I use PW, in fact, I feel safer because of the evade. If I have signet of malice on I am even safer because of the bigger heals. I will regain initiative from using PW because of traits, so it costs the same as headshot. 1/2 second stun is superior to 1/4s daze. The interval between interrupt-worthy attacks on a boss is typically long enough such that the time between PW stuns versus rapid headshots is not an issue. Interrupt-worthy skills generally have a big startup, so activation time is not really an issue either.

PW provides slower rate of interrupts than headshot but has other useful effects.

What is stopping anyone that complains from making his own thief?
Just a simple question.

Some points need a change. Thiefs arent weak but they arent perfect either.
- Basilisk Venom shouldnt be an elite or the duration should be raised. There is no point to this. I use it sometimes but only for troll purposes, a good player will break stun it easily and makes it useless. Some class got better stuns and they are not elite skills.
- Dagger Storm is kinda underpowered now.
- Flanking Strike is a joke. The animation is really too slow. Any player who use his two hands can avoid it and a sigil is much better to dispell boons. The time needed for this skill to land and the damage it does are ridiculous.
- Body shot is useless. Really.
- Headshot is a good skill but since we need to spam unload to make damage, what’s the point ? I really think vital shot should do some more damage so we wouldnt have to spam unload and use other skills.
- Pistol Whip is good right now, not too OP but i still think the stun animation should be reduced.
- Death blossom deals too much with a bleeding build.
- Dancing Dagger is a joke since its damage got nerfed. At least, it should cost less initiative.
- Last Refuge, as it stands, should be rename “Kill me faster please”. I think it’s the point who really need attention.
- Venom are great but they shouldnt be consumed everytime we land an auto-attack..
- Power shots has nothing to do in Shadow Arts. It’s a bow passive skill. The bow is the only thief weapon who really doesnt need stealth 90% of the time..

voidwater.2064:

Range is irrelevant when I am in melee. The root as I said before is not a problem either. I don’t feel unsafe when I use PW, in fact, I feel safer because of the evade. I will regain initiative from using PW because of traits, so it costs the same as headshot. 1/2 second stun is superior to 1/4s daze. The interval between interrupt-worthy attacks on a boss is typically long enough such that the time between PW stuns versus rapid headshots is not an issue. Interrupt-worthy skills generally have a big startup, so activation time is not really an issue either.

The interval between interrupt worthy attacks on bosses is typically long enough that they regain defiant while you are waiting to disrupt the skill. If you are looking to interrupt something specific its more reliable to leave one stack and then double headshot to make sure you get the interrupt; unless you are just removing it for a random CC in the fight, in which case you should be removing all stacks and letting another class use stun since PW has the shortest duration stun in the game by over half in most cases.

As for safer on evade, my posts further up give just a few examples of bosses with attacks too fast or with durations too long for the evasion property to protect you at all. And there are plenty more, if you’d like I will message you a comprehensive list.

584 hours and counting on my thief, mostly spent in dungeons. I’m not making this stuff up. But it’s easy to bicker theories on a forum. I pose a challenge to other s/p users to try a few dungeons without using 3 so you can see for yourselves. I think you will be surprised.

I could offer all of the empirical evidence in the world. From average damage, evasion time vs elite mob skill duration, average elite damage lost to root + defiant, average initiative lost to whiffs/dmg taken/defiant, to successful dodges vs. pw evades. All of which will favor not using the skill, but a lot of you will still counter argue until you experience it for yourselves. Pw damage no longer justifies the areas it falls short to auto-attack or other weapon combinations.

Can someone, anyone, at Anet riddle me why they thought it’s a good idea to put stealth in a game with massive rendering issues? This is a serious question, since this has gameplay impacts. It’s not about armor clipping fluff.
I get mass-battle WvW, but this engine can’t even handle a thief unstealthing without several seconds (!) delay on a 5vs5 sPvP match. What’s up with that?

Just a thought that came after I got attacked for the circa 100th time by a “stealthed” thief.

AcidicVision.5498:

Pw damage no longer justifies the areas it falls short to auto-attack or other weapon combinations.

It’d be more accurate to say that PW is now situationally useful, as opposed to a tool fit for any situation. PW still has unique attributes (like superior hit volume) that make it worth using, but it shouldn’t be constantly spammed for best effect, especially since auto attack is superior DPS.

Zunhar.4079:

Aervius.2016:

Zunhar.4079:

On second thought, just remove a Thief’s ability to stealth in combat, and replace it with a permanent stealth that only breaks when we deal damage.
Sound fair?

Only if:
1.) Stealthing only requires the Thief to stop attacking for 3-4 seconds.
2.) Channeled abilities / Pet+NPC AI will automically interrupt the instant the target Thief gains Stealth.
3.) Recieving damage while Stealthed does not break Stealth.
4.) Shadow Refuge and Blind Powder mechanics remain unchanged.
5.) Cloak and Dagger is restored to pre-nerf damage but is changed to a Riposte/Protector’s Strike “Parry” mechanic, dealing it’s damage in an AoE.
2.5 – 3s Channel, if no attack is blocked, the Thief gains 10s of Swiftness and Fury.
6.) Heartseeker is restored to it’s pre-nerfed-into-oblivion state, +66%/-66%/33%
and restored to it’s original damage scale.
7.) Dancing Dagger has it’s pre-nerf damage restored AND initiative cost reduced to 3.
8.) Pistol Whip restored to pre-nerf damage and the stun is increased to match the duration of the evade window (w/o the use of Haste).
9.) Pistol Auto-Attack build time is reduced to 1/8s.
10.) Flanking Strike’s damage is consolidated into 1 hit, causing 10x Vulnerability to the target. Animation of Flanking Strike changed to a Shadowstep-based positioning shift, not some agonizingly long eliptical dodge roll.
11.) Unload changed to “Double Tap”, dealing the consolidated damage of the current P/P dual skill, but reducing the number of shots fired to 2. First shot causes weakness, second shot causes 1/2s daze. 5 Initiave cost. 3/4s channel time.

If those conditions are met I’d sign the permastealth petition, if not- forget it.

It was a joke man, chill. I much prefer the active- short duration- stealth then the be invisible forever kind of stealth.

I am, however, all in favor of buffing underplayed builds, like P/P and S/D.

My reply was a joke too :P Hence, the excessive nature of the stipulations- most of those would completely destroy class balance in favor of the Thief.

AcidicVision.5498:

Im beginning to think you do not actually play a thief. O.O

With a steady sword and steady pistol my average pistol whip was:
36 + 68 + 68 + 68+ 36 + 36 + 36 + 36 + 36 = 420

My average three hit auto attack chain was:
163 + 163 + 143 = 469

The autoattack chain does less damage on the first two hits than the last. You probably got a crit on the first two. Whereas the PW test you only got 3 crits out of 9. Translation : your test is biased and flawed due to the very small amount of samples. You got 66% crits in the autoattack chain test and only 33% crits on the PW chain which in the long run, such variance wouldn’t happen.

PW is weak mostly due to the fact that the damage difference between the auto-attack and PW itself is too small considering the fact that you are rooted plus the intiative consumption. We know that PW was nerfed because of PVP when what really had to be nerfed was Quickness. Personally, I think PW needs to be looked at, or totally removed.

Sifu.6527:

STRanger.5120:

Eodwen.2613:

Piedplat.3597:

the stealth mode is a joke, more time on the “cant-be-stealth” debuff . (sorry cant remember the name I cant see it, the time is short on it…)

http://youtu.be/7799to8aGcQ

I dont know if he’s hacking or not. But if is not, seriously that class and any class with stealth is really OP…

The revealed debuff is 3 seconds and the stealth can go up to 3 seconds if you trait it. WvsWvsW is known to have the issue of not showing the target player right away. That is in fact a wvsw issue and not a class issue.

^^This

Seriously ppl, don´t post this complain over and over again, it has been told a thousand times before, that this is not Stealth problem, but the server/rendering issue. Therefore it has nothing to do with the class or any other class with stealth abilities, got it?
Thanks for finally understanding this.

Acutally, the server/rendering issue is only 1/2 of the problem.

It is a stealth mechanic problem, or at least in my opinion. The reveal debuff only applies if the thief attacks from stealth regardless if the thief is in combat or not. You can CnD for 3 sec of stealth or 4 sec if traited, wait for stealth to end and CnD again for another 3-4 sec, then you can use Hide in the shadow for another 3-4 sec. By this time you have enough init for another CnD. (this is just an example as there are different combinations for extending stealth).

You add in server/rendering issue in WvW which gives thieves a .5-1 sec delay coming out of stealth…now you can see how frustrating it is to fight a thief.

Is it working as intend? Probably but I can’t say for certain. Maybe they will fix it where all stealth triggers reveal once it ends. Who knows. In the meantime, deal with it.

If you use this technique, you´re no threat to anyone, because you´re doing basiccaly no damage, expecially after C&D nerf.

Drunge.4035:

Some points need a change. Thiefs arent weak but they arent perfect either.
- Dagger Storm is kinda underpowered now.
- Pistol Whip is good right now, not too OP but i still think the stun animation should be reduced.
- Death blossom deals too much with a bleeding build.

You´re joking about those, right?
Dagger storm seems fine to me, if used correctly.
Pistol whip is kinda weak in the terms of dmg, when taking in consideration the long animation and the ini cost.
Death blossom is fine as it is, however only good for Condition builds, it does no good with DD builds…

Drunge.4035:

Some points need a change. Thiefs arent weak but they arent perfect either.
- Basilisk Venom shouldnt be an elite or the duration should be raised. There is no point to this. I use it sometimes but only for troll purposes, a good player will break stun it easily and makes it useless. Some class got better stuns and they are not elite skills.
- Dagger Storm is kinda underpowered now.
- Flanking Strike is a joke. The animation is really too slow. Any player who use his two hands can avoid it and a sigil is much better to dispell boons. The time needed for this skill to land and the damage it does are ridiculous.
- Body shot is useless. Really.
- Headshot is a good skill but since we need to spam unload to make damage, what’s the point ? I really think vital shot should do some more damage so we wouldnt have to spam unload and use other skills.
- Pistol Whip is good right now, not too OP but i still think the stun animation should be reduced.
- Death blossom deals too much with a bleeding build.
- Dancing Dagger is a joke since its damage got nerfed. At least, it should cost less initiative.
- Last Refuge, as it stands, should be rename “Kill me faster please”. I think it’s the point who really need attention.
- Venom are great but they shouldnt be consumed everytime we land an auto-attack..
- Power shots has nothing to do in Shadow Arts. It’s a bow passive skill. The bow is the only thief weapon who really doesnt need stealth 90% of the time..

-Basilisk should be an elite, but I personally feel that for a 1-hit (consumed on whiff) venom, the stun duration should be 2s base. Especially with a 1s cast time, it’s not like you’re using it mid-melee without seriously risking your life in the process.

-I wouldn’t say that it’s “underpowered” but for 90s Elite, it sure is incredibly situational at best. I’d take Basilisk Venom any day over Dagger Storm, removing stability and just making it an 8-sec channeled evade.

-Body Shot should be on similar damage scaling as HS’s first tier. It’s not like P/D or P/P Thieves don’t have access to far better sources of raw damage, and a paltry 5% boost in damage (that can be removed) is worth the three initiative when P/P could wait 2 seconds and drop another Unload, P/D another C&D+SA.

-I think that’s the reason it costs 5 Initiative, though. And it’s only dealing 400 damage a second over a decade with a high condi damage build. I just wish it didn’t have such a flimsy animation- replace Twisting Fang’s animation with DB and retain the evade window / 3x stacks of Bleed and it’d be perfect. I guess some condi thieves would disagree, however.

-Completely agree. 4 Initiative is much better spent on waiting on a C&D or another HS for a gap-closer. I’ve also noticed that it seems to be rendering “Out Of Range” errors in WvW quite often lately. A cost reduction or restoration of initial hits’ damage is definitely in order.

-Again, I completely agree. Last Refuge’s effect should ignore Revealed debuff and late projectile damage that break the Stealth, however the Thief should be locked in the Stealth for the full duration, or the HP percentage should be increased to 50%. Or hell, remove it entirely and give us a better minor trait in exchange. Something like a passive 1-initiative per 2 seconds while stealthed trait.

-Meh, I don’t think their charges should be consumed on a Miss or Out Of Range. It should be a “Hit”/“Block”/“Evade” that consumes a venom charge. Especially considering their considerable cooldown durations.

-Considering you can’t even stealth with the SB skills, it does seem rather pointless that the trait is in Shadow Arts of all places. I’d think it’d make more sense if it were in Trickery, tbh. My proposal would be drop it all together, however and give the Shadow Arts line a broad “initiative-cost reduction” trait, like “Seasoned Assassin: Reduces the cost of all Initiative-based skills by 1 Initiative.”

Nemo.6295:

PW is weak mostly due to the fact that the damage difference between the auto-attack and PW itself is too small considering the fact that you are rooted plus the intiative consumption. We know that PW was nerfed because of PVP when what really had to be nerfed was Quickness. Personally, I think PW needs to be looked at, or totally removed.

Exactly, imo I wouldn’t mind if active Quickness was removed from the game entirely.
It should be limited to RNG instances, or reduced to a +50% increase in attack/animation speed, not +100%. As it is right now, Quickness is effectively God-mode derps for 4seconds, and considering the classes who have access to it are in no way lacking in sources of burst potential, it seems like overkill.

If they remove quickness you will hardly land a successful PW or HB and Flurry for Warriors. They will need to revamp all such skills

Posibabis.5932:

If they remove quickness you will hardly land a successful PW or HB and Flurry for Warriors. They will need to revamp all such skills

Yes, but that´s solvable and it will beat the issues which quickness is causing globally, aka make those skills much easier to balance.

Kurow.6973:

Thobek.1730:

thieves burst damage is WAY TOO HIGH more than any other class in this game by a mile! that mixed with the fact it all happens before the thief actually gets rendered is stupid. Its the reason people qre QQ’ing in every gw2 forum out there. They jump in and try their burst if it fails they stealth and reset cd and try again. Its lame.

The culling bug allows thieves to run riot in WvW

basically thieves need a rework, reduce the spike combo damage, give them more options (does ANY thief ever use the sword?), fix the culling issue.

give them one infiltrator arrow escape not two in a row, it allows them to escape any combat with ease. Most have the passive 25% speed boost in WvW anyway. mesmers don’t have 2 blinks, or warriors 2 dashes… no other classs can just pop two teleports instantly.

What class do you play, cause you clearly don’t play ALL the other classes.

Pretty much every single class is capable of the same burst as thief if specced that way.

Other classes get at least one gap closer that moves them MUCH farther than infiltrator’s arrow.

lvl80 warrior, mesmer, ranger, guardian. And no I don’t hear people crying over these classes nearly as much as thieves. personaly I wouldn’t care less if they halved killshots damage because to play a class effectively you shouldn’t have to rely on one skill to get you by. Even hundred blades + quickness is too much burst. HB by itself is fine, just move out of the way. Heartseeker basically should be called heatseeker because you jump exactly to the target.

I would rather burst be toned down across all classes. Being killed in a few seconds is what the main issue is. Thieves should be a class that has one main damage like other classes (make it backstab) BUT what they shouldn’t be able to do is have a chain of hard hitting abilities that wreck people in seconds.

On my guardian which is built full toughness every other class does sub 1k hits on me except thieves which are normally 2k -4k easily. They have incredibly high damage if that fails, its stealth, SB, SB and they are half way across the map

They have incredibly high mobility, hit harder than warriors are more elusive than mesmers, dancing dagger does more AoE damage than elementalists, all you need them to do now is drop turrets and they would do an engineers job better than an engineer. Bunker elementalists might survive thieves if they managed to see them coming before exploding.

seriously people cry about thieves for a reason, its why top sPvP teams always use them.

People say L2P dodge the attacks, how do you dodge something when they are stealthed and you don’t even know its about to happen, even in a fight a thief will just sit back in stealth and watch their opponent dodge blindly hoping to escape, once their endurance is gone you open up on them. Its win/win.

Sifu.6527:

The reveal debuff only applies if the thief attacks from stealth regardless if the thief is in combat or not. You can CnD for 3 sec of stealth or 4 sec if traited, wait for stealth to end and CnD again for another 3-4 sec, then you can use Hide in the shadow for another 3-4 sec. By this time you have enough init for another CnD. (this is just an example as there are different combinations for extending stealth).

C&D will not hurt too much, every 4 seconds – or rather 10 because that’s the time needed to replenish initiative when un-traited.

So, you don’t know when they’ll reappear and hit you for real, it’s more of a mind-game thing then. You’re in WvW and somebody’s playing a mind game with you and that should not happen? In PvP?

Look on the bright side, your cooldowns cool down while he’s stealthing away.

stof.9341:

AcidicVision.5498:

Im beginning to think you do not actually play a thief. O.O

With a steady sword and steady pistol my average pistol whip was:
36 + 68 + 68 + 68+ 36 + 36 + 36 + 36 + 36 = 420

My average three hit auto attack chain was:
163 + 163 + 143 = 469

The autoattack chain does less damage on the first two hits than the last. You probably got a crit on the first two. Whereas the PW test you only got 3 crits out of 9. Translation : your test is biased and flawed due to the very small amount of samples. You got 66% crits in the autoattack chain test and only 33% crits on the PW chain which in the long run, such variance wouldn’t happen.

I told you it was an average. I averaged 2/3 crits on the auto chain and 3/9 on Pistol whip. I also told you the results were reproducible. The number of crits and dmg will vary between characters but you will still, on average get better dps with auto attack.

As an in-game experiment, instead of trying to make a point on the forums, why don’t you take your character in to Lost Shores and kill two young Karka:

The first one use pw. When the fight is over note how much damage you took, how long it took to kill the monster and how much init you had left when it died. If you want tally up all your dmg.

The second, use auto-attack and chain black powder at the end of it’s duration. And take the same notes.

Your results will be the second Karma dying x seconds faster (depends on your crit chance and weapon grade, but auto will be faster), you take 1/5 of the dmg you took initially, you end with most of your initiative left (even though black powder costs one more initiative it lasts twice as long. You use it less and regen more). And if that’s not enough, you can tally dmg again and see the exact difference in DPS.

I actually have a video of doing exactly this. It will be up on youtube sometime this weekend after I edit it to pause after each fight to display the metrics and do a side by side comparison. Might even make some pretty graphs. But I welcome you to try it for yourself.

ASP.8093:

cesmode.4257:

1.Adjust the time you are in stealth with the downed state #3. It is something like, one second. Completely useless in any situation, PVE or PVP.

I thought so, too, but then I realized you can use it to disrupt stomps. Just gotta start it when their wind-up starts.

The 2-second stealth is just long enough to use the #1 stealth attack skill called Venomous Knife. It puts on 3 stacks of 8-second bleed and 8 seconds of poison, which comes to around 4000 damage on a condition build.

I don’t get the decision to give thieves so many combat invisis, and then to buff them, seriously get your heads out of your kitten when it comes to balance you really kittened the pooch on this one, GW1 was perfect with out invis, kittenin kitten idea lets hope after February you will have some how unkittened your selves and actually balanced your game. Cya then skill less thieves.

Zoke.2147:

I don’t get the decision to give thieves so many combat invisis, and then to buff them, seriously get your heads out of your kitten when it comes to balance you really kittened the pooch on this one, GW1 was perfect with out invis, kittenin kitten idea lets hope after February you will have some how unkittened your selves and actually balanced your game. Cya then skill less thieves.

Some weapon sets do not have much for invisibility.
S/P
D/P
P/P
….

Daecollo.9578:

D/P

To be fair, this one has an excellent, if expensive, way to stealth, to the point where it is one of the main ways to non-combat permastealth.

I have 4 lvl 80’s, a thief, necro, ranger, and mes. I really liked the necro in the early lvls but became fairly underwhelming as it lvl’d up (esp damage wise). Ranger was fairly blah. Mesmer would be fun if it had any mobility and decent aoe.

Now the thief. I have had my thief since the start, lvl’d it to 80 first, love every bit of the thief playstyle, have 100% world completion, full equipment… yet is the only one I am not bored of playing.

Please make another class like the thief because as I said, have completed basically everything possible except making a legendary. I want to be able to enjoy another class instead of having the feeling of grinding through the game with anything that isn’t my thief.

Thieves are fine leave them as they are nobody complaint about them they are the reflect of perfection which make playing this game a pleasure.

Shrpnelz.4801:

Thieves have a serious problem of opness. Let’s take a closer look :

Damage per second : Thieves have a very high damage output from both regular damage AND condition damage which make heavy armor useless. they have ranged weapon as well, which can apply poison, vulnerability, bleeding, cripple, daze evasion.

Mobility in combat/Evasion : They have dodge rolls, Evasive skills with both ranged and melee weapon, somehow every thief i’ve fought so far we’re running faster than me. VERY Hard to land a skillshot on them, very hard to hit in melee before they drop you down.

Invisibility : Well it speaks for itself. Should be a 70% stealth and not complete invisibility or simply removed, if not at the expense of CC or condition damage or damage…

Put a comparison board of thief vs. any other class and everyone will be playing thief which is probably the case as we speak in Spvp ( I’d like to specify that I never enjoyed a good SPVP without 4-5 thief against me or with me Yayyyyyy!??!?! was spvp meant for thief only? )

As long as I can remember, the only thief class actually worth the fun to play with, against and in team with was the D&D ORIGINAL Thief ; a coward, hungry for gold, double crossing son of a dog.

GW2 thieves are in my opinion a very pitiful attempt to recreate the Assassin Creed feeling that sold millions and millions of copy, please note that AC wasn’t an online game.

Thieves have horrible damage per second, they have however very high burst…

Mobility in combat/Evasion, Thieves are 4th on this, Under Elementalist, Warrior, Engineer.

Invisibility: Thieves and Mesmer both have almost an equal amount of invisibility skills in utility, but Thieves have cloak and dagger as well, and traits that stealth us whenever they seem to feel like it, giving us a nice revealed de-buff that usually kills us.

Put a comparison board of thief vs. any other class:

For PvE, Thief is ranked Lowest Class, even under Ranger.
For PVP, Thieves are not ranked very high in SPVP where PVP actually is balanced, we are roamers and roamers are terrible in SPVP, we cannot compare to Guardians/Elementalists/Other Classes, we are one of the only classes who can’t bunker down.

99% of our complaints come from WvWvW pvp, which is not balanced.

This one wonders if you even play a thief, or just enjoy sprouting nonsense.

Every 45 seconds, the thief can deal more damage then any other class in the game.
However, after that, the thief does almost little to poor damage, mostly auto-attack damage.

If you can block that one big attack, then the thief is easy meat, which these days many people are learning to do.

Deleted my posts below, don’t need fighting. :P

One major advantage of thief is they can always escape. And thus eat food, and never die while having it. In my opinion this give thief a 5-10% attack bonus (there’s food that give 6% of thoughness/4% precission all towads power). For a profession that’s able to never die if well played, such a buff is cheap and almost overpowered to other professions.

Daecollo.9578:

For PvE, Thief is ranked Lowest Class, even under Ranger.

Man, what?

I hate to beat the “l2p” drum, but anyone who says this is mistaken. Thieves can take on really big numbers and come out unscathed.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

One major advantage of thief is they can always escape. And thus eat food, and never die while having it. In my opinion this give thief a 5-10% attack bonus (there’s food that give 6% of toughness/4% precision all towards power). For a profession that’s able to never die if well played, such a buff is cheap and almost overpowered to other professions.

With max precision or toughness these food buffs only give ~150 power, and if you trait a Thief for max toughness or precision power will fall by the wayside and this buff won’t really add much. Also why are you complaining about the food buffs? Which are available to All Classes. So a Warrior who does the same can kill my Thief even faster from max range with kill shot, I’m not gonna complain, it’s the nature of WvW that there’s always a chance someone will find you after a fight while everything’s on cooldown.

Tulisin.6945:

Daecollo.9578:

D/P

To be fair, this one has an excellent, if expensive, way to stealth, to the point where it is one of the main ways to non-combat permastealth.

And.. Non-Combat Permastealth is useless, it can’t cap points anymore, stealth foes are ignored.

Here’s my feedback.

I play sword/pistol and shortbow primarily. I play almost exclusively in PVE, with a little bit of WvW on the side

In the past, the playstyle involved using infiltrator’s strike to position yourself, pistol whip vs a single target that could be stunned or multiple easy to kill targets, and autoattacking while in black powder against veterans, targets that have knockdowns that could interrupt pistol whip, enemies that can’t be stunned, etc. Pistol whip resulted in faster kill times, black powder and autoattacking resulted in higher survivability. Head shot was only used in niche situations such as needing to interrupt an enemy out of melee range.

Since Pistol Whip had its damage reduced. I, and other thieves, have done testing and found that autoattacking results in more damage per second while in PVE. The result is pistol whip no longer finds very much use, only against targets that cannot be blinded, as autoattacking while using black powder results in higher dps AND more survivability at the same time. This is just not an engaging playstyle to rely so heavily on autoattacking. Many people I know who have thieves as alts agree that sword/pistol is very effective, and yet not very fun to play because it’s so heavily based on autoattack. The damage reduction to Dancing Dagger resulted in a similar very passive boring playstyle for Sword/Dagger, relying heavily on autoattack.

Since we have started splitting skills for PVP/PVE balance, could the PVE version of Pistol Whip get its damage back so that the combination is more active and fun to play again?

Another suggestion I have is increasing the damage of head shot. I know it’s primarily an interrupt but the offhand dagger skills do much more damage than offhand pistol skills and therefore have much more utility, where offhand pistol skills have only niche uses. At least consider raising headshot’s damage in PVE.

I’m fine with the class being high DPS, but they should not have perma-stealth and should not be able to escape out of any situation with the shortbow port. Thieves just seem to vanish after attacking you never to be seen again – i know there is a rendering bug, but it is getting ridiculous.

It’s at the point where people don’t even bother chasing them any more because there is no way to catch them after they attack.

ASP.8093:

Daecollo.9578:

For PvE, Thief is ranked Lowest Class, even under Ranger.

Man, what?

I hate to beat the “l2p” drum, but anyone who says this is mistaken. Thieves can take on really big numbers and come out unscathed.

Comparatively speaking, in the right hands any class can dominate multiple bads simultaneously.

Thread for thief feedback, so here you are…

I finally got feed up with the constant suggestions of “learn 2 play” on thief forums, so I rolled a thief first. There are a number of issues people have with thieves that are generally based on wvw. Here are the issues I’ve found as well as ways that I would suggest to fix them.

1. Rendering – We have 3 seconds to see a thief. We’d like to see you please.
2. Stealth – Stealth in combat is a great idea, but there should be a method for an opponent to counter this in a way that removes you from stealth. I’m not talking direct damage and dots, but rather control effects such as daze, knockback and knockdowns. These are skills that disable a player but do not break stealth. For anyone with other classes than the thief, they’ll realise that these effects are constricted to specific weapons sets for each class and tend to have long cooldowns.
3. Burst Damage – We’ve all seen the screenshots of the 1 second burst ability of a thief. We’ve probably all looked at our combat log to see Steal – CnD – BS is all they needed to kill us. The major problem with this is Toughness failing to scale. 23k kill shots were1 glass cannon blowing up another glass cannon with the aid of the projectile bug (fixed). But when a lvl 80 exotic geared toughness build gets one-shot, people tend to get pretty antsy. Atm, our armour value is actually doing very little to protect us, while gearing towards pure damage is rewarding because of this fact.
4. Restrictive weapons sets – the reason that there are so many dagger/dagger thieves around is that it is insanely rewarding to equip this and then either spam heartseeker at your opponent or steal – CnD – BS. Fight over rather than having to think, time and react to your opponent. More thieves might try something different if there was something profitable in these other sets. Yes, you can make sword/dagger, dagger/pistol, etc. work, but why would some players even bother when they can hit 3 keys and win the fight.

Agree with the above post. Thieves are making a joke of WvW right now. Most OP class I have ever seen in any game