Guild Wars 2

Nice breakdown. Looks like body shot is next on the chopping block.

…lol.

Vuln stacking is always overlooked and underappreciated. I may have missed it, but did you do a dps check on the vuln stacking build? Im sure people seeing this who might be interested in how much dps they can expect to bring, maintaining their stacks.

Selver.1307:

Nice breakdown. Looks like body shot is next on the chopping block.

…lol.

Vuln stacking is always overlooked and underappreciated. I may have missed it, but did you do a dps check on the vuln stacking build? Im sure people seeing this who might be interested in how much dps they can expect to bring, maintaining their stacks.

it was low, like 2500, but most vuln builds have low personal dps

Problem here is Engi and Necro apply their Vulns in adition to A LOT of stuff (their vuln becomes complementary and is as high or better as Body Shot spam, some months ago when I met my first Vuln grenadier in a dungeon run I was amazed at how he was singlehandely putting 20+ Vulns on target while releasing a huge lot of explosions).

DPS wise Unload is better (and Unload has SAD DPS so it isn’t a compliment), for PvP not enough people will be targeting your foe for Body Shot to be something else than a mathematical DPS joke, for general PvE things die too fast for it too matter, or have so many players that the Vuln cap is quickly reached.

For Dungeons and Fractals you basically need the other 4 (or at least 3) party members to be full DPS focus for it to be more useful than using other skills or other builds (which means the party needs to get rid of some great support members).

And aditionally P/D can use it and other things which means it isn’t even a reason to take P/P.

Body Shot is a joke, P/P is focused on optimizing the multi-hit on Unload, which at the end isn’t even that great.

2 changes that could save the set are:

- Unload applies Weakness (0.5 seconds per bullet, for a total of 4 seconds if all hit). This way it serves as a defensive skill and reduces the dodging rate (dodge hurts Unload a HUGE LOT and the set could use some damage mitigation). The damage isn’t even that great for a 5 initiative skill, and a Weakness that can only be maintained if you exclusively use the skill isn’t so much but it’s enough to round the skill.

- Body Shot becomes a spread x5 shot. 1 Vuln per hit (Rangers get a spread x5 with 1 bleed per hit on a 6 seconds recharge so 3 ini works well). Make it so that if at least 4 or 5 shots hit the target the damage/initiative (and damage/time given how it takes less time to cast) is higher than Unload (not too much, but noticeable). This way you have a DPS alternative but only if you risk getting into melee range. Being a multi-hit it benefits from the same traits than Unload and it makes Black Powder useful for the set as it can cover you when you jump into melee range to use this new Body Shot. Black Powder is not worth it on ranged sets so this way you get to use it a bit on P/P too.

These 2 changes makes the set more versatile and fun, making you able to change at will the distance you want to fight at. It isn’t overpowered as the first change isn’t so big and the second one needs you to take risks.

As the set is right now, it’s a boring 33333 spam fest that isn’t even that great. Body Shot spam is a mathemtical waste in most situations, and not worth it when there are too many players because there is a cap on Vuln stacks.

Vital Shot is severely underpowered, almost certainly due to an egregious oversight in the way animation length supersedes activation speeds of skills during auto-cast even though the offensive specs of the skill are balanced around the latter, which affects many weapons with #1 skills that aren’t on a chain (longbow ahem). The fact that this hasn’t been identified and corrected after 8 months single-handedly makes me doubt the competence of their QA team.

Body Shot is mostly useless, except in compositions that are able to exploit the Vulnerability stacking. At least it has something of a niche use there, depending on the rest of the group’s set up (even then it’s fairly rare that you are in a situation that can really benefit much from it).

Unload is the only thing making it not absolutely terrible, which still sucks because you are forced to continuously spam it for halfway decent DPS, and even then it is’s only mediocre, and you have to be manic about it to even maintain that because it isn’t a strong enough skill to compensate for how weak Vital Shot is.

In short, P/P is not good, anyone that says it is is either speaking from ignorance or delusion.

You guys overestimate how much DPS you need for vulnerability to be worth it.

Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.
The Vulnerability Builds Hit for 2500
So you have a ~3000 DPS difference to make up for.
So, between the 4 of your other group members you only need 12,000 DPS.

Scootabuser.4915:

You guys overestimate how much DPS you need for vulnerability to be worth it.

Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.
The Vulnerability Builds Hit for 2500
So you have a ~3000 DPS difference to make up for.
So, between the 4 of your other group members you only need 12,000 DPS.

As I said, you still need at least 3 party members to go full dps and nothing else for it to have a value (and why go P/P when you can go P/D and be more versatile). And that 2500 is assuming you got everything ticking perfectly and we all know that’s not how it goes, there is a lot of other stuff that don’t show up when testing numbers that affect it.

So basically it isn’t THAT high (and that high isn’t even so high, specially considering other professions Vuln builds) and with how short the Vulns stick to the target and taking into account that most teams won’t be always achieving 100% dps as they need to do other stuff to save their lives, Body Shot is far from the way to go.

Pistol is broken, I love the aesthetics behind of dual pistols, and the first 10 minutes with them you think they’re fun, but soon you realize how badly designed is that set right now in terms of versatility and competitiveness.

Lokheit.7943:

Scootabuser.4915:

You guys overestimate how much DPS you need for vulnerability to be worth it.

Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.
The Vulnerability Builds Hit for 2500
So you have a ~3000 DPS difference to make up for.
So, between the 4 of your other group members you only need 12,000 DPS.

As I said, you still need at least 3 party members to go full dps and nothing else for it to have a value (and why go P/P when you can go P/D and be more versatile). And that 2500 is assuming you got everything ticking perfectly and we all know that’s not how it goes, there is a lot of other stuff that don’t show up when testing numbers that affect it.

So basically it isn’t THAT high (and that high isn’t even so high, specially considering other professions Vuln builds) and with how short the Vulns stick to the target and taking into account that most teams won’t be always achieving 100% dps as they need to do other stuff to save their lives, Body Shot is far from the way to go.

Pistol is broken, I love the aesthetics behind of dual pistols, and the first 10 minutes with them you think they’re fun, but soon you realize how badly designed is that set right now in terms of versatility and competitiveness.

Paragraph 1: More people need to start doing full DPS builds and taking support and control places that don’t DESTROY your DPS.

Paragraph 2: The DPS body shot does is actually a lot easier to accomplish then other builds, you just stay above 6 initiative and use headshot when you can. Theoretical DPS is always going to be lower then applied DPS, you just gotta determine for yourself if your skilled enough to pull it off.

paragraph 3: Agree

your video has a major flaw, Sundering Strikes and Critical Haste sucks, the correct build is 25/30/0/0/15, take Combo Critical Chance and Thrill of The Crime

also 65% crit chance is too low, get sigil of perception and sqash soup to get to 80%

that actually makes a difference

I think it would be nice if pp had the ability to keep 15-20 steady on 3-4 clumped targets.(vuln, oops)
Would give a little benefit to niche-ing themselves so. I agree they need work, pistol mh and pp#3. But geez. I dont see them touching it for a while.

Bassman.9245:

your video has a major flaw, Sundering Strikes and Critical Haste sucks, the correct build is 25/30/0/0/15, take Combo Critical Chance and Thrill of The Crime

also 65% crit chance is too low, get sigil of perception and sqash soup to get to 80%

that actually makes a difference

Prove that mathematically, because I proved that the opposite was true while doing my math.

INIT is key for dps imho, here is my p/p build which i love to use,
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckMMMM9MMGmvMMGmvMax0x0MVsqMsb8kiH7khf7kir70z7070z7kGL70V7ofD70m8ofY (copy & paste)
you can switch bloodlust for sigil of preception. I also switch out Hide in Shadows fir Withdraw from time to time.

Critical Haste will make you waste your init faster while Combo Critical Chance will make you deal more damage with it, do I really need to prove that?

Bassman.9245:

Critical Haste will make you waste your init faster while Combo Critical Chance will make you deal more damage with it, do I really need to prove that?

Yes, because I only added the damage modifier from critical haste to the auto attack.

Critical Haste doesn’t make you waste your init faster. You just get more auto attacks, you init regain stays the same.

Edited cause that was unnecessarily hostile. Bassman if you wanna add me in game i can go over how I calculate DPS.

franny.5078:

INIT is key for dps imho, here is my p/p build which i love to use,
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckMMMM9MMGmvMMGmvMax0x0MVsqMsb8kiH7khf7kir70z7070z7kGL70V7ofD70m8ofY (copy & paste)
you can switch bloodlust for sigil of preception. I also switch out Hide in Shadows fir Withdraw from time to time.

The entire point of the video was to prove that Ini is NOT the key, and is in fact WORSE.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/82145-theoryloo-pistolpistol-thieves/

video got died heres a new link to it

Great video, entertaining and informative!

You keep mentioning how pathetic the DPS is for a range weapon set. What professions do range damage better? Warrior Rifle? Engineer Pistol or Grenader?

uh… after a few more runs with P/P I had the feeling that this weaponset is not that awesome, but that’s just sad.
One question, how many stacks of vulnerability can you maintain on a boss?

@SpaceCowboy: Since the autohit on Warrior-Rifle is almost as bad as Thief-Pistole, I dont think Warrior can deal good rangeDPS, too. But a comparison to other classes would be interesting.

And thank you for credits, now I feel really bad about me not looking at that sheet a while ago.

SpaceCowboy.1398:

Great video, entertaining and informative!

You keep mentioning how pathetic the DPS is for a range weapon set. What professions do range damage better? Warrior Rifle? Engineer Pistol or Grenader?

Engineer grenader is good but only because of the vulnerability build it can run.

From what I’ve figured out so far, ranged DPS is about 30-40% less then melee DPS for each class. So you really do get a massive bonus for being in melee. Don’t play a “ranged” build. Play a build with a melee weapon and a ranged weapon and pick which one you think is better for the bosses.

Molch.2078:

uh… after a few more runs with P/P I had the feeling that this weaponset is not that awesome, but that’s just sad.
One question, how many stacks of vulnerability can you maintain on a boss?

@SpaceCowboy: Since the autohit on Warrior-Rifle is almost as bad as Thief-Pistole, I dont think Warrior can deal good rangeDPS, too. But a comparison to other classes would be interesting.

And thank you for credits, now I feel really bad about me not looking at that sheet a while ago.

For the vulnerability I’ve only taken it on 1 run. It was easy to keep the vuln at 20+ but hard to stagger your Body Shots so you don’t waste initiative by going over.

I need to do some math for the grenade engineer to see just how good that build actually is.

I made a massive mistake in my calculations

I forgot that while determining the SUP for thieves, you don’t factor in cast time since their cooldown is based on initiative regain, something that doesn’t stop while your casting.

Will have the new numbers soon. WHY DOES THIS ALWAYS HAPPEN TO MEEE

Ok so a few things. I Changed where I calculated haste, instead of adding it as a damage modifier, I used it to modify the ability cast times using an average.

Also I cleaned up the SUP and updated the build with the correct food buffs.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.2|a.1g.h2.a.1g.h1|0.0.0.0.0.0|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u36a.u5ab.0.0.a5|39.7|58.5g.5e.5f.5w|e

A note on a 25/30/0/0/15 Build: This build is going to be much easier to run, keeping your initiative above 6 will be a lot more forgiving for new players, and you only lose some DPS from 50 power/Mug.

And here is the 10/30/0/30/0 Build with the new numbers, still proving initiative regain to be inferior.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.2|a.1g.h2.a.1g.h1|0.0.0.0.0.0|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|a6.u5ab.0.u29c.0|39.7|58.5g.5e.5f.5w|e

Scootabuser.4915:

Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.

Where are you getting these numbers? I’ve done some calculations and seen some others but those seem high. I haven’t found a system that seems accurate for calculating DPS but I would like to.

Blood~

Let’s change gear for a second so instead of trying to count how many Unloads can you do, by sacrificing a lot of DPS for Init gain, and focus on calculating how much damage is done per Init spent.

Basically, how much Damage does 5 Inits worth?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.

This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.

I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.

Not theorycrafting, 100% empirical experience.
25/30/0/0/15 “Lazy” Dual Pistols Damage Build:
http://en.gw2codex.com/build/24932-dual-pistols-maximum-damage-lazy-build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=APgEhXKWO9Q

10/30/0/30/0 “Dodge&Swap” Might Stacking Max Ini Regen Build
http://en.gw2codex.com/build/24793-thief-dual-pistol-might-stacking-build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77j8psP8LBY&feature=youtu.be

Tfujlesiu.5420:

Not theorycrafting, 100% empirical experience.
25/30/0/0/15 “Lazy” Dual Pistols Damage Build:
http://en.gw2codex.com/build/24932-dual-pistols-maximum-damage-lazy-build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=APgEhXKWO9Q

10/30/0/30/0 “Dodge&Swap” Might Stacking Max Ini Regen Build
http://en.gw2codex.com/build/24793-thief-dual-pistol-might-stacking-build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77j8psP8LBY&feature=youtu.be

I wish that, something in the acrobatics tree or something could be buffed so that the dodge and swap build did more damage then the 30/30 build, cause it’s just so much more fun to play

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Let’s change gear for a second so instead of trying to count how many Unloads can you do, by sacrificing a lot of DPS for Init gain, and focus on calculating how much damage is done per Init spent.

Basically, how much Damage does 5 Inits worth?

That’s how the 2 spreadsheets work. They use initiative regain as the “cooldown.”

If you want I can email them to you.

Bloodgruve.6038:

Scootabuser.4915:

Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.

Where are you getting these numbers? I’ve done some calculations and seen some others but those seem high. I haven’t found a system that seems accurate for calculating DPS but I would like to.

Blood~

The fun thing about these spreadsheets is it takes no time at all to change stuff, everything is connected so if I change the crit chance, everything from the damage modifier to the amount of initiative opportunist gives you, changes.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.2|c.1g.h2.a.1g.h1|0.0.0.0.0.0|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u63a.u3ab.0.0.a4|39.7|0.5m.5e.5g.5w|e

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.

This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.

I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.

What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.

ensoriki.5789:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.

This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.

I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.

What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.

I made it a few words in then gave up.

Yes, fixing Vital Shot will make a pretty dramatic difference, even if the set is still hardly perfect.

Einlanzer.1627:

ensoriki.5789:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.

This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.

I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.

What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.

I made it a few words in then gave up.

Yes, fixing Vital Shot will make a pretty dramatic difference, even if the set is still hardly perfect.

You know, P/P doesn’t reach as high of DPS as melee, but thats to be expect, 3200 DPS, but we have nothing to compare that too. What if most other ranged weapons did 2000 DPS? P/P would be one of the best weapon sets. And if thats true, and P/P is the highest ranged damage set for a class, why would AN fix vital shot?

Scootabuser.4915:

Einlanzer.1627:

ensoriki.5789:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.

This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.

I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.

What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.

I made it a few words in then gave up.

Yes, fixing Vital Shot will make a pretty dramatic difference, even if the set is still hardly perfect.

You know, P/P doesn’t reach as high of DPS as melee, but thats to be expect, 3200 DPS, but we have nothing to compare that too. What if most other ranged weapons did 2000 DPS? P/P would be one of the best weapon sets. And if thats true, and P/P is the highest ranged damage set for a class, why would AN fix vital shot?

Because that isn’t the case. I can promise you Rifle Warriors do substantially more DPS at longer range while having vastly better survivability.

Einlanzer.1627:

Scootabuser.4915:

Einlanzer.1627:

ensoriki.5789:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.

This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.

I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.

What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.

I made it a few words in then gave up.

Yes, fixing Vital Shot will make a pretty dramatic difference, even if the set is still hardly perfect.

You know, P/P doesn’t reach as high of DPS as melee, but thats to be expect, 3200 DPS, but we have nothing to compare that too. What if most other ranged weapons did 2000 DPS? P/P would be one of the best weapon sets. And if thats true, and P/P is the highest ranged damage set for a class, why would AN fix vital shot?

Because that isn’t the case. I can promise you Rifle Warriors do substantially more DPS at longer range while having vastly better survivability.

O RLY

Scootabuser.4915:

Einlanzer.1627:

Scootabuser.4915:

Einlanzer.1627:

ensoriki.5789:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.

This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.

I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.

What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.

I made it a few words in then gave up.

Yes, fixing Vital Shot will make a pretty dramatic difference, even if the set is still hardly perfect.

You know, P/P doesn’t reach as high of DPS as melee, but thats to be expect, 3200 DPS, but we have nothing to compare that too. What if most other ranged weapons did 2000 DPS? P/P would be one of the best weapon sets. And if thats true, and P/P is the highest ranged damage set for a class, why would AN fix vital shot?

Because that isn’t the case. I can promise you Rifle Warriors do substantially more DPS at longer range while having vastly better survivability.

O RLY

Resurrecting this thread just to say this: Yes, really. Rifle warrior unquestionably has superior (potential at least) range, firepower, and utility than P/x Thief. If this spreadsheet says otherwise, then somewhere your data is wrong or you aren’t taking something into account.

For one, the flow is smoother. Bleeding Shot can stack up to 10 or 11 bleeds with just one trait and half kitten condition gear. Volley does terrific damage, better than Unload, even though it’s on a cooldown it works out because you are able to keep bleed stacks high while also utilizing the Rifle’s other rather decent utilities. Also, Kill Shot.

At absolute peak P/P may come somewhere close to Rifle, but it still falls shy and it does so at shorter range with zero utility.