Thief Concern Following PoI

Thief Concern Following PoI

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Posted by: Gray.9041

Gray.9041

having just watch PoI, I noticed a few things

one is that Karl definitely reads the forums. he mentioned a recent thread, and I’m not confident he reads these, so I’m gonna throw these few things, and hope they get noted, if not fixed.

Thief Survivability:

Karl mentioned that thieves don’t have much survivability, and that the daredevil addresses this.

but what about base thief?

if we don’t go daredevil, we’re still cripplingly squishy. I noted Karl asking if the daredevil can take mulitple enemies. half the time (PvP espescially) I find thief struggles to take single enemies. daredevil does have survivability, but base thief doesn’t, and it’s be nice to see that fixed.

it’d be nice to have some survivability without taking the elite spec, and I feel like what was once a high-risk high-reward class has been kind of unbalance because all other classes complain endlessly about our high damage, without acknowledging the high risk – resulting in what is now a high-risk mediocre-reward playstyle.

Condition Builds:

Imparing Daggers looks rather nice, but it seems to be best suited to a heavy condition build. however, thief doesn’t really have a heavy condition build. reasons for this include:

  • none of our weapons sets have more than 2 skills which apply damaging conditions, and never more than 3 stacks.
  • while a few utility skills do give conditions – Caltrops, Spider Venom, Needle Trap – it’s very hard to use these effectively.
    – no skill type has more than two skills which give damaging conditions
    – most base thieves have to run defensive utilities – Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep, etc.
  • much of thief’s condition applications have to be bursty:
    – thief can’t survive long enough to keep up sustained condition application.
    – many conditions have to come from utility skills, which have relatively long cooldowns.
    – in order to get a significant amount of condition damage in the absence of burning, thief has to stack as many conditions on a target as possible, which means spamming skills like death blossom.

this leads to the condition thief’s damage being extremely vulnerable to condition cleanses, meaning the majority of their damage can be removed in an instant.

  • Damage over Time:
    – due to the reliance on bleeds, poisons and torments, the condition thief has to wait a while for conditions to deliver their damage (unlike burning, which is a burst-damage condition)
    – however, without much real survivability, theif can’t survive long enough for these to take effect, unless stealted.
    – but stealthing means that the thief cannot continue applying conditions, which is necessary in order to keep a meaningful amount of damage on the target.
  • Control Conditions:
    – thief has access to a wide range of non-damaging conditions, like blinds, weakness, vulnerability, immobilise and cripple.
    – the availability of these leads many people to believe that thief has quite a lot of conditions.
    – however, since they are non damaging conditions, they’re less useful to a condition build, and may be one of the reasons we don’t see more damaging conditions on the class.
  • Condition Specialisation
    – thieve’s don’t really have a given condition specialisation, our traits are spread between many of them
    – venomous aura on shadow arts is necessary to make any venom builds viable
    – Deadly arts has a few CD traits, but also has Potent poison (10% damage and 33% duration increase for 1 condition running against Executioner (a straight 20% increased damage on enemies under half health.), where it really can’t compete.
    – as such, condition thieves have to use several specific specialisations to get a half-decent spread of condition traits, and these are often sub-par compared to direct-damage counterparts.

so, as a more concise summary:

  • no real condition weapon(s)
  • not enough condition slot skills
  • condition application is too bursty – vulnerable to cleanses
  • condition damage isn’t bursty enough
  • condition thieves lack the defense to outlast their targets. their damage-to-sustain ratio is among the lowest of any build.
  • no dedicated condition specialisation

as it stands, it’s nearly impossible to make a good condition thief, and it’s no surprise that we’re considered the worst class to run conditions on. throw in the daredevil which – while fun – doesn’t really lend itself to condition builds, and you’ll find it increasingly difficult to get a viable condition build on thief. which is a shame, because I always thought that a bleed/poison thief made tons of sense thematically.

tl;dr – base thief needs a fix to survivability, condi thief is pretty much non-existant, and I can’t see any way of taking DD without switching to a power/crit build…

(edited by Gray.9041)

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

I think the whole idea of the elite is a flawed:

The cool factor of dodging everywhere will wear off once you realize you’re not killing anyone doing your little dodge dance. Did the class get any DoT’s or big bursty skills on long cooldowns to make up for it? Time to BWE.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

It’s either dps or survivability. You can’t have both at max, you’re forced to do hybrid builds to have both and give up a bit of them. The concept is perfect.

Or do you actually think that bunker Guardians do dps?

Daredevil is an evasion tank if you spec into dodges. You can also spec into damage however. Not going to survive much more then now, but you still have stealth and 1 more dodge.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

if we don’t go daredevil, we’re still cripplingly squishy. I noted Karl asking if the daredevil can take mulitple enemies. half the time (PvP espescially) I find thief struggles to take single enemies. daredevil does have survivability, but base thief doesn’t, and it’s be nice to see that fixed.

Base Thief has other options. Base Thief is intended to go Stealth and/or maintain blinds, something DD has a harder time at. They are designing the DD to be more in your face the entire time, while a base Thief is intended to be more hit and run, opportunistic burst.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Gray.9041

Gray.9041

if we don’t go daredevil, we’re still cripplingly squishy. I noted Karl asking if the daredevil can take mulitple enemies. half the time (PvP espescially) I find thief struggles to take single enemies. daredevil does have survivability, but base thief doesn’t, and it’s be nice to see that fixed.

Base Thief has other options. Base Thief is intended to go Stealth and/or maintain blinds, something DD has a harder time at. They are designing the DD to be more in your face the entire time, while a base Thief is intended to be more hit and run, opportunistic burst.

I’ve found – and I’m pretty sure many other thieves would agree – that these other options aren’t nearly enough. stealth has far too much counterplay, and blinds can only go so far.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

It’s either dps or survivability. You can’t have both at max, you’re forced to do hybrid builds to have both and give up a bit of them. The concept is perfect.

Or do you actually think that bunker Guardians do dps?

Daredevil is an evasion tank if you spec into dodges. You can also spec into damage however. Not going to survive much more then now, but you still have stealth and 1 more dodge.

… and then we have dd eles, engis and mesmers…. which throw your concept out of window

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

I didn’t follow the whole thing but no mention of reverting SE,not putting CiS and SR in same tier,making Acro actually attractive still gives me the vibe that it was nerfed to sell daredevil. Making an good elite when ignoring the base class is worse than designing a bad elite spec so to me he fails.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

It’s either dps or survivability. You can’t have both at max, you’re forced to do hybrid builds to have both and give up a bit of them. The concept is perfect.

Or do you actually think that bunker Guardians do dps?

Daredevil is an evasion tank if you spec into dodges. You can also spec into damage however. Not going to survive much more then now, but you still have stealth and 1 more dodge.

… and then we have dd eles, engis and mesmers…. which throw your concept out of window

except none of them can do damage and conditions while dodging, or run fast enough to cap multiple points.
This thing can blink to points as a thief and also keep them as a bunker.
Plus stealthed assassinations with the elite skill and group support with staff and daggers.

It’s going to be a must in pve and probably a little bit OP in pve. Even Karl took almost no damage from Svanir and he claimed to be winning a lot against Roy.

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Posted by: fluffdragon.1523

fluffdragon.1523

Missed the POI here (yay work), but yeah, logging in to +1 the OP’s post.

I did a theory craft for a possible rework of my thief (who I’ve not touched for more than 5 minutes in months) which came out to Critical Strikes, Acrobatics, and Daredevil.

Aaaaaand my damage would suffer quite impressively for it.

Not to mention that even D/D builds, which have been my go-to since I first started playing at launch barely have the condition damage needed to sustain a condition build anymore. Sacrificing most of my utilities for conditions didn’t help, and stealth just let them all lapse.

So yeah, OP’s right. We need more work on base thief.

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

It’s either dps or survivability. You can’t have both at max, you’re forced to do hybrid builds to have both and give up a bit of them. The concept is perfect.

Or do you actually think that bunker Guardians do dps?

Daredevil is an evasion tank if you spec into dodges. You can also spec into damage however. Not going to survive much more then now, but you still have stealth and 1 more dodge.

I don’t think I’m asking for both. You’re comparison doesn’t make much sense to me. bunker Guardians give up damage for PASSIVE defense. No problem because I always have passive defenses and I can still apply whatever offense I have at the same time.

That’s NOT what daredevil gives you. You get frequent but not always available ACTIVE defense instead of applying offense. That’s a pretty crap deal if you ask me. Sure, there’s a daggers on dodge attack some condi. but basically that tells me if you don’t just want to dance, your traits are pre-determined by the elite. Yuck.

(edited by Obtena.7952)

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

I found the original post a strong and succinct summary of the infrastructural issues facing the Thief profession. We simply don’t have the durability to make tank builds or enough application of damaging conditions to make condition builds. Every other profession gets at least decent versions of these builds, so why not Thief?

We also still need a bump in base HP, as 11k does NOT get the job done in modern SPvP.

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Posted by: Spurrlock.3219

Spurrlock.3219

No mention of confusion on steal?

It seems to me like the issue is bleeds. Pre-berserker warriors had the same problem when trying to go full condi. The bleeds take to long to dish out decent damage and end up getting cleansed long before they cause any pain.

I think that the new spec line adds enough sustain to warrant a full condi build, but is held back by near-useless bleeds. Hopefully the increased torment will make it viable.

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Posted by: Ensign.2189

Ensign.2189

if we don’t go daredevil, we’re still cripplingly squishy.

If you do go daredevil you are also cripplingly squishy – a couple extra dodges do not make you any more tanky than running Acrobatics or just putting Signet of Agility on your bar.

Even a full defense Acrobatics/Trickery/Daredevil build has less access to dodges and lower sustain than the old 20066 S/D build – which was not exactly renowned for tanking points against multiple foes.

Being crazy squishy is just part of playing a thief, regardless of what spec you decide to run.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

It’s either dps or survivability. You can’t have both at max, you’re forced to do hybrid builds to have both and give up a bit of them. The concept is perfect.

Or do you actually think that bunker Guardians do dps?

Daredevil is an evasion tank if you spec into dodges. You can also spec into damage however. Not going to survive much more then now, but you still have stealth and 1 more dodge.

… and then we have dd eles, engis and mesmers…. which throw your concept out of window

except none of them can do damage and conditions while dodging, or run fast enough to cap multiple points.
This thing can blink to points as a thief and also keep them as a bunker.
Plus stealthed assassinations with the elite skill and group support with staff and daggers.

It’s going to be a must in pve and probably a little bit OP in pve. Even Karl took almost no damage from Svanir and he claimed to be winning a lot against Roy.

nah they can do it while evading….. or sitting in stealth…. or in defensives (see fields, clones, casting shatter while being invul etc.)… BURNING SPEED?

yes, thief has good moblity but honestly current meta ele or mes isn’t much slower…. they can travel between points just as fast just with different mechanics (ele burning speed, swiftness, RFL, FGS; mes port blinks etc.)

i do not see “this thing” keeping points like bunker….. yes evades are annoying, but they are not countless and there are still vulnerability frames in between; 1-2 hits you are dead

stealthed assassination with elite skill? excuse me? as far as i am aware elite skill with reveal you if you use it in stealth, it can be also blinded, blocked, dodged, body blocked by clones etc.

staff has group support ? where lol

daggers have group support? where lol

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: reddie.5861

reddie.5861

hurr the OP for president yes our main problem sits in the base of the thief not in the traits etc. fully agree!

for me this dumb damage boost was just the end of thief, sure we deal more damage also but when 1 can take 2 hits and another can take 5 then its quite easy to guess whos gonna win.

one can face tank your damage while you are forced to play with perfect timed dodges
thus making 2v1 kittening hard when 2 people are swinging around like idiots.
anyway doubt stuff will change with new trait tbh.

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Posted by: Killyox.3950

Killyox.3950

Ever got the idea that the class is not for you? I mean it has been marketed as a squishie requiring precise dodging and stealthing to stay alive since forever. You picked it despite that.

You shouldn’t have high hopes for Thief having passive defense like guardian or some of the other classes.

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Posted by: reddie.5861

reddie.5861

It’s either dps or survivability. You can’t have both at max, you’re forced to do hybrid builds to have both and give up a bit of them. The concept is perfect.

Or do you actually think that bunker Guardians do dps?

Daredevil is an evasion tank if you spec into dodges. You can also spec into damage however. Not going to survive much more then now, but you still have stealth and 1 more dodge.

my bunkerguard is getting hell alot more loot bags in same time frame then my thief
also my bunkerguard allows me to make multiple errors

if i would get full deffense armor for my thief im pretty sure it wont let me make much more errors then what i do now also i nerf my DPS to the bone (fine) and i still get ripped apart within seconds.
fun thing is in arena pvp which i btw do not enjoy (spvp w/e u call it) im running a thief fully on deffense and its idd perfectly fine.
you know why? cus im just decapping stuff keeping people busy till my teammates come to add more DPS while when im alone im just being an annoying port in/out dodge tank.

this tactic doesnt really work for players who enjoy WvW more like my self i cant wait somewhere on the map till some random server friend might run by.

sPvP > 20k hp
WvW > 15/17k hp depends which weap i use
now the difference is small but when i feel like a glass cannon in WvW and pretty useless ever since patch that im playing my Guardian/Elementalist more often in WvW and for record im not running D/D S/D ele just good old staff to blast some AoE around cus i like that

Ever got the idea that the class is not for you? I mean it has been marketed as a squishie requiring precise dodging and stealthing to stay alive since forever. You picked it despite that.

You shouldn’t have high hopes for Thief having passive defense like guardian or some of the other classes.

the difference is every1 plays his own game here one plays Spvp one plays WvW and another PvE and based on that they gonna judge how thief is.
ofcourse PvE thief will say omg amazing lolol
sPvP thief for me is fine also while another says its not

yes sPvP im fine, PvE lol’d, WvW not fine since patch.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Ever got the idea that the class is not for you? I mean it has been marketed as a squishie requiring precise dodging and stealthing to stay alive since forever. You picked it despite that.

You shouldn’t have high hopes for Thief having passive defense like guardian or some of the other classes.

It is fine for it to be squishy, but it also should be doing high dmg. High risk, high reward. The problem is that we have other classes that have waaaaayyy lower risk than thieves while dishing out just as much dmg. Where does it fit in?

Whole issue is that Aner decided to forget about risk vs reward correlation while led to such issues in pvp atm. Simply put, If thief didn’t have sb 5, there would be 0 thieves in pvp atm. This is reality and new spec doesn’t fix that issue.

How are people even suppose to pick prof properly when thief description says:
Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

- They are not experts in stealth, mesmers are atm
- surprise? mes/engis can do it just as good
- vanish in thin air (hi mes/engis can do just as well)
- steal is only true description
- practice in agile …. except they forgot to mention that those builds don’t work with stealth

Ini: “This allows thieves to stay flexible and responsive in combat and unleash a rapid flurry of powerful attacks.”
- as far as i am aware thief weapon skills are made rather weak intentionally because they are spammable… this this flurry of powerful attacks is rather a lie

" Stealing does not break stealth, and cannot be used often. "
- yes it does if you trait mug

“When using a main-hand and off-hand weapon combination, thieves have access to a spectacular Dual Skill that is determined by their weapons. For example, thieves with two daggers will receive the Leaping Death Blossom skill,”
- do i need to comment on this one?

“With Shadow Step, thieves can teleport into the battle or away from danger. "
- yeah we forgot to mention that all this teleporting gets countered by tiny rock on the way or slope… or other terrain texture lol

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

(edited by Cynz.9437)

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Posted by: Gray.9041

Gray.9041

No mention of confusion on steal?

It seems to me like the issue is bleeds. Pre-berserker warriors had the same problem when trying to go full condi. The bleeds take to long to dish out decent damage and end up getting cleansed long before they cause any pain.

I think that the new spec line adds enough sustain to warrant a full condi build, but is held back by near-useless bleeds. Hopefully the increased torment will make it viable.

I forgot about the traited conditions (even though I use them), because it’s a pretty high-CD application which requires us to jump directly on the enemy’s face – not so good with out low health.

I agree with your assessment of bleeds, and would say the same more or less applies to poisons too.

as for the torment, it’s nice – but I don’t think it’s enough to make a difference.

I’m worried that cleanses’ availability will be balanced against burning, leaving other higher-duration lower-damage conditions much less useful, and those conditions are all we have.

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Posted by: fluffdragon.1523

fluffdragon.1523

No mention of confusion on steal?

It seems to me like the issue is bleeds. Pre-berserker warriors had the same problem when trying to go full condi. The bleeds take to long to dish out decent damage and end up getting cleansed long before they cause any pain.

I think that the new spec line adds enough sustain to warrant a full condi build, but is held back by near-useless bleeds. Hopefully the increased torment will make it viable.

I forgot about the traited conditions (even though I use them), because it’s a pretty high-CD application which requires us to jump directly on the enemy’s face – not so good with out low health.

I agree with your assessment of bleeds, and would say the same more or less applies to poisons too.

as for the torment, it’s nice – but I don’t think it’s enough to make a difference.

I’m worried that cleanses’ availability will be balanced against burning, leaving other higher-duration lower-damage conditions much less useful, and those conditions are all we have.

Just popping in again to comment on the condition situation~

Yeah, bleed and poison — the current mainstays of thief — have really been made near useless. Especially when I’ve had my regen/bunker warrior (Dolyak runes, Adrenal Health, Healing Signet, Sentinel’s gear) 1v5 some trash mobs with 10 stacks of Poison and still take more damage from any single mob’s physical attacks.

I played around with a full-on Condition build in PvP lobby on my thief, modified from a venom meta. It was … sad, to say the least. And that’s with +50% poison and +30% bleed duration, or so.

Even getting 12 stacks of bleed on a dummy or sparring target was barely doing more than my pistol’s auto-attack, and it took slapping a venom (or two) on them to bring my DPS up to line with my usual PvE precision/crit style.

Compare that to remembering I was running a mace/torch burn guardian way back (Balthazar runes, Dire gear (might swap to Carrion), otherwise what became the existing meta): with a single Zealot’s Fire and Cleansing Flame, I could take down 1~3 trash mobs per use. With just the ongoing burning damage thereafter.

Our condition situation is insanely lackluster compared to most other classes right now.

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

Thief sucks at both applying damaging conditions and removing them. Not sure how this is still under dispute… thieves are good at applying control conditions so I suppose people mistake that for thieves having an actual condition build.

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Posted by: Gray.9041

Gray.9041

Thief sucks at both applying damaging conditions and removing them. Not sure how this is still under dispute… thieves are good at applying control conditions so I suppose people mistake that for thieves having an actual condition build.

this is true, I’m just worried that these things may get ignored/forgotten with all the (probably justified) hype over daredevil

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

The issue is not that a given weapon set can only apply two different conditions. This is not much different than other classes that make condition builds.

The fact we might apply a damaging condition such as a bleed on only one of the 5 weapon skills is also not a problem. Other classes have cooldowns which forces them to use a different attack to get those conditions on.

What the problem is related to is how many stacks of a condition are applied for each given attack and the base duration of the same.

Lowering the durations of the poisons of SB is an example of this. It was an I’ll advised move and harmed the sets damage ability.

Dagger training is another that IMHO should see a boost to 50 percent app rate and at least 3 seconds base duration.

bewildering ambush should see at least another stack added along with base duration increase.

Pressure striking should result in at least another stack of torment.

The urge to lower stacks from the new lotus training should be resisted and after this all done and there some testing of just how effective it becomes the number of stacks and or durations of the conditions be looked at on the weapons .

That all said I also think the burn condition needs a percentage downtweak in damage per stack as well. There no one fix . it is a combination of things that are needed.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

Agreed on just about all of that!

To me, the most illustrative example is how you can run P/D full condi—Dire/Rampager/Sinister amulet, Sigil of Earth on weapon, +Bleed Duration Rune (Afflicted, Krait, Mad King) and STILL not apply as many stacks of bleed as other classes do with one skill/trait.

So frustrating!