Guild Wars 2

Hey there!
So I started a thief a while ago … actually before the “nerf”-patch and since I thought him quite squishy (but fun!) I decided to try the Guardian to see if I’d have more fun in the front row playing a tank – and maaaaan was I bored! :O

So it’s quite obvious chaing back to thief and try to live with what I’ve got. I think the thief to be a really acrobatic and mysterious class and I like the way he hides in shadows but that doesn’t mean he’s pure joy to play.

So are there some general tips you guys can give a level 22 thief who is really confused regarding the fact that since the patch changed some important mechanics, some builds you can find on the internat surely don’t exist anymore.
I play mainly D/D (that’s what imo a thief has to use) and I really enjoy the bow – the rest I used from time to time to have some variety but mainly it’s d/d and sb

I already figured out that stealing in combination with a certain trait gives me ini but what else is really important for a PvE-thief?

Oh and if you would help me – which I would really appreciate – please don’t use all those short cuts without explaining what they mean since I wouldn’t know most of them anyways

Very little has really changed for thieves in PvE for a long time. Most of the changes affected PvP more and in particular primarily affected the S/D acrobatics build that was popular.

With traits, the CS tree is primarily the dps backbone for any direct damage build. Having 30 in CS to get Executioner is what you’ll find in pretty much any good PvE dps build.

The current meta for thieves in PvE dungeons is generally to take on the role of a glass cannon DPS. You get the maximum DPS by using D/D for single targets or S/P for multiple targets using a 25/30/0/0/15 spec, but since thieves are so squishy, you may want something with a bit more defense.

Investing 15 points into acrobatics is an easy way to get a lot of extra survival since you can pretty much dodge 3 times in a row with Feline’s Grace. You can also put at least 25 points into Trickery and get the trait Bountiful Theft. Bountiful Theft will provide vigor and the 25 point investment will get you Lead Attacks, which is a big boost to DPS while you keep your initiative pool as full as possible.

Also, get a good set of dual pistols for when you run into single target encounters that aren’t melee friendly as you do more dps with P/P than with short bow on single targets.

Hope that helps.

Yes it did.

I wonder how squishy he actually is. I played Ele first and I found him unpleasent for mostly the wrong reasons: Way too complicated controls with soo many buttons, good damage only if might stacking and really low survivability.

So thief on the other hand actually hits hard and has same HP pool but better armor plus more skills to retreat.

Is my fear to die often in dungeons reasonable? I’d love to go d/d and just range battle is senseless imo since that is what Ranger is for.

If you aren’t familiar with dungeons you won’t be doing yourself or your group any favors by insisting on melee.

Melee combat is higher risk/reward and shouldn’t be attempted until you are both comfortable with your class and the content. Until then resort to Shortbow and/or Pistols.

And while I know that Daggers are a Thief’s signature weapon, you should really consider using Sword + Pistol in PvE. Black Powder allows you to basically auto-attack any non-champion mob to death with no threat to yourself. Even when fighting multiple mobs.

And the cleave damage means you are often dealing much more effective damage than you ever could with Daggers.

Imo Sword + Pistol is way more effective than Daggers in 90% of PvE situations. Try it and find out for yourself.

D/D is really bursty and will give you troubles in dungeons or world group event because as soon as you deal that back stab, you gotta run because you just took aggro and will die in one swipe.

My suggestion, for a less painful leveling, is to reserve Sword main hand for boss fights since your damage is regulated by the slow attack speed and will not pull aggro as long as you manage your damage output. Having high DPS typically means that you will die a lot since you’ll be pulling aggro left and right. So save your D/D set for mobs that you can kill quickly and use sword for a longer fights or when in a group.

If you want to play dagger/dagger for PvE you go about it a number of ways. You can try high condition damage and death blossom. You can use shadow arts traits with cloak and dagger. You can try high dps traits for high backstabs. The offhand pistol is easier to use at low levels though since it gives obvious defense on two skills whatever your build is.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

D/D is really bursty and will give you troubles in dungeons or world group event because as soon as you deal that back stab, you gotta run because you just took aggro and will die in one swipe.

My suggestion, for a less painful leveling, is to reserve Sword main hand for boss fights since your damage is regulated by the slow attack speed and will not pull aggro as long as you manage your damage output. Having high DPS typically means that you will die a lot since you’ll be pulling aggro left and right. So save your D/D set for mobs that you can kill quickly and use sword for a longer fights or when in a group.

Umm…what? No, that’s not how it works. Aggro is something that’s factored by a large number of factors, including toughness, current health, etc. Damage is a factor, but you’re not more likely to get aggro simply because of one ability doing a bit more burst than your auto attack.

The only reason a sword will prevent you from getting aggro is simply because it does less damage. If you’re in a bad group where your dps is so much higher than the rest of your group that you’re primarily holding aggro, you can simply start dealing less damage and you’ll accomplishing the same thing as running into the fight with a sword.

Also, you don’t need to stick as ranged while you learn the class. If anything, you’ll learn the class faster by jumping in as melee because sitting at range won’t tell you what moves are deadly to melee and which aren’t. If you’re too squishy, just wear some more defensive gear (Valkyrie or Knight stats) or change your spec to have more defensive traits. 0/30/0/15/25 is a good defensive spec to use if you’re worried about being too squishy.

Dahkeus.8243:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

D/D is really bursty and will give you troubles in dungeons or world group event because as soon as you deal that back stab, you gotta run because you just took aggro and will die in one swipe.

My suggestion, for a less painful leveling, is to reserve Sword main hand for boss fights since your damage is regulated by the slow attack speed and will not pull aggro as long as you manage your damage output. Having high DPS typically means that you will die a lot since you’ll be pulling aggro left and right. So save your D/D set for mobs that you can kill quickly and use sword for a longer fights or when in a group.

Umm…what? No, that’s not how it works. Aggro is something that’s factored by a large number of factors, including toughness, current health, etc. Damage is a factor, but you’re not more likely to get aggro simply because of one ability doing a bit more burst than your auto attack.

Which part of “burst” did you not understand? A burst is a massive increase in your damage output that is definite to generate a lot of aggro despite of other factors.

If your “burst” damage deals a much damage as a Warrior’s auto attack, then you might want to take a look at your ability to burst.

The only reason a sword will prevent you from getting aggro is simply because it does less damage. If you’re in a bad group where your dps is so much higher than the rest of your group that you’re primarily holding aggro, you can simply start dealing less damage and you’ll accomplishing the same thing as running into the fight with a sword.

lol. Sure if you say so.

Also, you don’t need to stick as ranged while you learn the class. If anything, you’ll learn the class faster by jumping in as melee because sitting at range won’t tell you what moves are deadly to melee and which aren’t.

Sigh. This is almost like trolling. Do you even know how to play a Thief? You can’t just jump in there like a Warrior. Sheesh!

If you’re too squishy, just wear some more defensive gear (Valkyrie or Knight stats) or change your spec to have more defensive traits. 0/30/0/15/25 is a good defensive spec to use if you’re worried about being too squishy.

lol, yup, a troll. How is 0/30/0/15/25 a defensive trait? I have no idea.

Anyway, do what you think is good for you.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

^ do some reading. Burst really matter that much.

Yes, I play a thief. I’ve played sword specs, dagger specs, etc. in fractals and every dungeon in the game. A backstab doesn’t make that much of a difference in aggro.

You can step into melee if you’ve gotten any decent understanding of the game. Thieves are squishy and yes, you will die at times while learning, but that’s how you learn.

0/30/0/15/25 is defensive because of:
– defensive stats from Acro investment
– Feline’s Grace giving the extra dodge
– Bountiful theft giving vigor

This gives defensive tools without being a huge sacrifice to dps. If you need more defense than this, wear some valkyrie gear. While under level 80, pick up pieces with vit and/or toughness in addition to gear with precision/crit damage/power, but just avoid condition damage and healing.

The OP isn’t new to the game, he’s new to the class. Playing at ranged will teach no more about how to play the class than running on his guardian will.

You’ll always need 30 points in precision.
The class is made to absolutely rely on precision, critical hits and side effects coming from that.

Making your way to 80, I say it doesn’t really matters what equipment and traits you use, feel free to go for whatever you feel need of. I play since relase, and decided to go for completely self-built until I finish the story, and guess what, I did without any problems. Just have to learn reading the incoming attack animations, and use your situational utility skills AND swapping your heal skills to match the situation’s requirements. For example, versus a huge group of enemies daggerstorm (ultimate) and heal on hit signet is a wonderful combination.

Endgame, however, precision is the way to go. You mentioned that you love D/D, be sure to pick prec. 30 trait that gives you a garanteed critical hit from stealth. Dagger autoattack changes to “backstab” when you are in stealth, and garantees DOUBLE damage if you hit your opponent in the back. Now add garanteed crit.

At this point I doubt there is a need to explain why you go for critical damage, power and precision on your gear.

If you plan to getting attached to D/D, you most certainly want to pick up 15 points in the vitality trait line, giving you endurance (dodge resource) back when you evade an attack, providing 3 dodges in a row. You’ll definitly need this as you are very squishy. The motto is, kill it before it kills me. No room for damage reduction, you take raw damage and deal with the consequences, or learn to avoid it completely. Having a 3rd dodge is a no brain decision with D/D (with sword / pistol, you may try to leave it behind and spend those points elsewhere, as you’ll have permanent blind in a small area with pistol 5). I’m experimenting with this nowadays, sometimes I feel the need for that 3rd dodge but definitly not in open world situations.

Conditions is another thing that you have to deal with instantly, given the low health pool a very low stack of bleeding, or a simple poison / burn combo, or just a single out of those with a long duration can cause your death very very easily. The most common way to remove them is going stealth and having 10 points in toughness trait line, that allows you to remove a condition every 3 seconds in stealth (one is removed instantly). You can also go for precision signet (passive precision increase), and use it’s active effect if you don’t expect much conditions coming your way. But if you want to do dungeons seriously, fractals, especially WvW, you’ll want to drop this and get something better than a 30s cooldown 1 condition remover. With a sword, you can remove 2 conditions with sword skill 2 (shadowstep, shadow return… maybe renamed to infiltrator in the last patch I think), and you can spend those points elsewhere.

You can go for 25 power traits too and get a significant raw damage boost (especially for daggers), but later you’ll realize that utility coming from a few points spent here and there are much more worth it, and can end up with the same outgoing damage if you manage them well. For example, the last trait line gives a nice boost to your dps by giving you fury for a pretty long duration, and spending even more points here gives you +3 max initative (better utility, more dodge with d/d skill3, better damage with pistol whip spam using s/p, more smoke fields, more condition removal by stealth), later depending on how much unspent initative you have it increases your damage 1% for each. And there you go, got a lot stuff from trickery line, including damage boost, without spending 25 points in power.

Dahkeus.8243:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

^ do some reading. Burst really matter that much.

Have you read it yourself?

You might want to look at the section “Gaining and losing aggro”

Yes, I play a thief. I’ve played sword specs, dagger specs, etc. in fractals and every dungeon in the game. A backstab doesn’t make that much of a difference in aggro.

Yup you’re right. Hitting a boss with a 2x crit damage back stab doesn’t make a difference in aggro — if you’re using toothpicks.

You can step into melee if you’ve gotten any decent understanding of the game. Thieves are squishy and yes, you will die at times while learning, but that’s how you learn.

Horrible suggestion. You need to be mindful of the status of the OP — he’s level 22 for goodness sake.

0/30/0/15/25 is defensive because of:
– defensive stats from Acro investment
– Feline’s Grace giving the extra dodge
– Bountiful theft giving vigor

So that’s defensive, 0/0/30/30/10 is offensive build then — got it.

This gives defensive tools without being a huge sacrifice to dps.

So it’s an offensive build then?

If you need more defense than this, wear some valkyrie gear.

Ok, so it wasn’t a defensive build after all.

While under level 80, pick up pieces with vit and/or toughness in addition to gear with precision/crit damage/power, but just avoid condition damage and healing.

The OP isn’t new to the game, he’s new to the class. Playing at ranged will teach no more about how to play the class than running on his guardian will.

With your suggestion, he’s better off playing his Guardian. Thief requires opportunity before going into melee range and should know when to get out of range…no wonder you die.

Whoah, take a deep breath buddy. You’re getting a bit riled over some pretty trivial stuff. If you really don’t think this guy can handle melee, then whatever. Feel free to think that way. It worked for me and many of my friends who leveled thieves.

Other classes hit just as hard as thieves and have just as much if not more burst. Hundred blades, whirling wrath, etc. If the rest of the group is hitting like a wet noodle, yes a backstab may pull aggro. Never had any issues with aggro myself though.

And just because I suggested 0/30/0/15/25 as a defensive option doesn’t mean there aren’t other defensive builds too. Personally, I think a SA build is a waste in PvE since there’s a big loss of DPS compared to other alternatives trickery, but it’s a valid option as well.

Either way, no one’s trolling you. If you disagree with me, then cool. Make your point and move on, lol. You don’t need to start making accusations that I’m somehow inexperienced or that somehow my experiences are invalid just because they’re different from yours.

Yup, getting carried through dungeons is the best way to learn the Thief profession because your team will not mind when you go into melee without thinking — they’ll rez you anyway. If your backstab is not pulling aggro, you’re not dealing a burst damage nor you understand what a burst damage is — that much is an indication that you’re being carried.

Omg, thanks for all the comments and suggestions so far, I’ll read through them one by one later today
Started my thief anew (didn’t like his appearance and he was just level 22 anyways).

I met a professional thief yesterday who assured me that d/d is possible even in dungeons (that’s what I was most afraid of: That I would be way to bad to do d/d there) and that he/she runs full berserk – nice. He uses shortbow more or less just to retreat really fast which is bascically the way I wanted to play all along.
Wonder how thief will work out. I get why many people didn’t like their thief-run (ini is so diffrent from normal cd) but imo he suits me perfectly fine. He needs combos and skill like ele but unlike ele he’s not a 100-buttons-class (not needing to change my attunment every 2 seconds really helps).

Really excited to try thief now – see you ingame!

Swimfan.8014:

Omg, thanks for all the comments and suggestions so far, I’ll read through them one by one later today
Started my thief anew (didn’t like his appearance and he was just level 22 anyways).

I met a professional thief yesterday who assured me that d/d is possible even in dungeons (that’s what I was most afraid of: That I would be way to bad to do d/d there) and that he/she runs full berserk – nice. He uses shortbow more or less just to retreat really fast which is bascically the way I wanted to play all along.
Wonder how thief will work out. I get why many people didn’t like their thief-run (ini is so diffrent from normal cd) but imo he suits me perfectly fine. He needs combos and skill like ele but unlike ele he’s not a 100-buttons-class (not needing to change my attunment every 2 seconds really helps).

Really excited to try thief now – see you ingame!

Awesome! The class is a ton of fun. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have, but it sounds like you will. =)

Dahkeus.8243:

Awesome! The class is a ton of fun. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have, but it sounds like you will. =)

I’m level 11 again and I’m really fascinated how much 15 points in Trickery is worth (is there anyone who doesn’t want 2 Ini per theft, all those buffs and 3 extra ini all the time?!).
I also think that as long as I keep experimenting, I’ll do some decent damage for my group later on. Until now (11 – which isn’t very far I know) the class looks pretty good balanced. You smash opponents rather quickly compared to other classes I’ve played but you also get some spanking back if you aren’t careful and play way to sloppy Really nice!

About Sword/pistol →
I figured out how op this combination is in PVE against melee mobs rather quickly but seriously?! It’s fcing boring If I’d want to play a faceroll-class I’d play Fighter plus by using the same trick over and over you’ll never learn how to play a class properly.

S/P is by far more optimal than D/D. When you’re facing trash mobs you’re forced to go for sb cluster bomb spam which isn’t as helpful as S/P #5 or just spamming pistol whip. Trash mobs are not supposed to be fun, period. It has nothing to do with how OP or boring S/P is in PvE.

As I tl;dr’s in another thread, I find 10/30/30/0/0 the friendly build for newcomers. 30 in Shadow Arts gives you longer stealth, heals/regen for intiative/removing conditions on stealth, or venom share for the party. The last 10 points can be put in anything really.

Tachii.3506:

S/P is by far more optimal than D/D. When you’re facing trash mobs you’re forced to go for sb cluster bomb spam which isn’t as helpful as S/P #5 or just spamming pistol whip. Trash mobs are not supposed to be fun, period. It has nothing to do with how OP or boring S/P is in PvE.

Uhm what’s a trashmob for you?
I get what you’re trying to say but d/d seem to do tons of damage later on and nothing stands in your way for very long – especially “trash mobs”.
That doesn’t mean I will never use s/p. As I said before: I already knew how brilliant it works but i wouldn’t wanna use it all the time so in PVe I’ll most likely switch between diffrent weapon sets (even p/p) to have some mixed fun.

Tachii.3506:

As I tl;dr’s in another thread, I find 10/30/30/0/0 the friendly build for newcomers. 30 in Shadow Arts gives you longer stealth, heals/regen for intiative/removing conditions on stealth, or venom share for the party. The last 10 points can be put in anything really.

Hmmm yea sounds really nice (especially higher stealth and regen) and I needa figure out my build some times later on but for starters all those Trickery-pros (2 Ini/Buffs per stealing and 3 extra ini) look waaaay more starter-friendly to me.
But I’ll see

With optimal traits, S/P is about 5% lower dps than D/D. This is why the general advice for PvE is to use S/P on trash in dungeons and D/D for single target.

For roaming around in open world, D/D is a solid choice since you have a lot of 1 v 1 fights. The toughest aspect is just handling mobs that turn to face you immediately, which makes getting to their back for a backstab a pain. =P

Trash mobs = at least 3 or more enemies that can be 1-2shotted by pistol whip. If you’re using D/D, which is only single target, you need to beat them one at a time, when sword auto attack or pistol whip can get rid of 3 at once. DPS-wise the sword will trump D/D if you’re facing more than 3 enemies, which is often in dungeons and fractals.

Dahkeus.8243:

With optimal traits, S/P is about 5% lower dps than D/D. This is why the general advice for PvE is to use S/P on trash in dungeons and D/D for single target.

True – I still love my daggers tho.
I’d say that I’ll wait until I drop some decent sword and pistol and then I’ll give that a go as well.
5% – are you sure? That would be pretty bad since d/d has only stealth-defense skills?! Would show (again) that Arenanet has no idea whatsover about their own balance …

Dahkeus.8243:

For roaming around in open world, D/D is a solid choice since you have a lot of 1 v 1 fights. The toughest aspect is just handling mobs that turn to face you immediately, which makes getting to their back for a backstab a pain. =P

Yes it’s a pain but somehow doable without you doing anything really – you just pass right through the enemy and that’s that. In other situations it doesn’t seem to work all that way which is quite frustrating.

…

Ok I played thief some more and I’m kinda upset with how less possibilities we got to defend ourselves beside old-fashioned Alakazam-trick :/ I knew before (thanks to the interent) but thief sure is some good challenge to play proberly ….

Ah yea and wtf are venoms so bad?! O_o Does anyone seriously use them? Don’t get me wrong, I’m trying to grasp the mechanic behind the game but their cd compared to the fact that you only have 5 stabs and not some active-time-window seems to be downright pathetic to me?!

Venoms arent as much bad as they are ill-suited to the game content.

In PvP, you either stack up venoms to take advantage of your trait, which leaves you without condi removal or a stun breaker, or you bring something to cover that and are left with a lot of traits for a few venoms.

In PvE, venoms can be a good way to stack your group with a lot of might…but you’ll seriously hurt your personal DPS and will stack might about as good as an ele who can do the same task without losing tons of DPS.

Also, while you’re leveling, if you get bored or want to try out a different weapon set, give P/D a try. Outside of leveling, it’s a rather niche weaponset, but while leveling or while solo, it’s pretty strong since you can attack from range, then Cloak and Dagger as soon as a mob gets to you, get some distance, then use the stealth attack. This can be a good tactic for soloing champions or high health veterans.

Dahkeus.8243:

Venoms arent as much bad as they are ill-suited to the game content. (…)

And I ask myself why. Venoms COULD be such a good alternative way to play a thief (and a really cool one as well) but just like anything else the guys who’re responsible for balancing the game had no clue whatsoever about how the game works later on. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be less suited venoms out there but EVERY SINGLE venom is not worth my time – including the elite skill!
Look at ele – his conjured weapons are what I call a good implemented variety.

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, while you’re leveling, if you get bored or want to try out a different weapon set, give P/D a try. Outside of leveling, it’s a rather niche weaponset, but while leveling or while solo, it’s pretty strong since you can attack from range, then Cloak and Dagger as soon as a mob gets to you, get some distance, then use the stealth attack. This can be a good tactic for soloing champions or high health veterans.

Good idea! I’ll give that one a go as well, thanks!

I tried P/D now and I really love the torment damage (3) is doing. Switched to D/P to try it the other way around but the killing was waaaay slower.
I also noticed how awesome P/D is if you’re fighting veterans and bigger creatures since they never come close to you if you don’t let them.