Guild Wars 2

So, I read through of it. It’s not… all nerfs, and most of it doesn’t really majorly affect my own build, but… the developers are confusing me here.

“… [W]e are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line through easier access to the Hard to Catch trait and increased effectiveness of the Assassin’s Reward trait. This will reward thieves who are actively engaged in the fight rather than those who are just dodging over and over again.”

So… how do they want us to play, exactly? I’m glad that we’re maybe getting some improved survivability, but it’s not like we could really dodge for ever, even with a shortbow equipped (I’ve tried and failed, even with all the initiative regens, and that’s probably getting shot to hell even further with the initiative nerfs).

Do thieves need a nerf? Speaking as a main thief player, yes, probably, and the perma-stealth thing is ridiculous, but I’m legitimately confused on what’s being done to this class.

They want thieves to be free loot bags so all the baddies would stop complaining.

i think they want to push venom share build to make ppl play it so they nerfed every other build and are adding new stuff for venom share

bad way to make venom share popular imo, as build is still crappy in overall class balance

Didn’t even pick up on this when I read it…..
Reward active play by making Hard to Catch easier to get……

Making assassins reward more effective….
I.E. Making weapon evades more beneficial to spam…..That’ll definitely stop 3 spam, along with sword thieves not having an out on stun…..

The same sort of logic confused me when they nerfed the utility of S/D 3 instead of the damage. Instead of making thieves choose between utility attacks and damage, they made the damage redundant and the utility less effective so you had to spam 3 more to be effective……

Yeah, you read it right, they do the total opposite of what they are saying with these silly explanations. Like, regarding every upcoming thief change. Because f* logic.

They just can’t admit that “hard to catch” is a trash trait by desing? Nobody wants to be randomly teleported around. Why is this so difficult for them to understand? Really makes me wonder where they get these people…

Master of Timespace.2548:

They just can’t admit that “hard to catch” is a trash trait by desing? Nobody wants to be randomly teleported around. Why is this so difficult for them to understand? Really makes me wonder where they get these people…

my guess is they just pick them up off the street

they should drop the KD on hard to catch too. its soo annoying. everyting you port you get KD>

and even when you get ported you should always be facing your opponent.

I’m just struggling here to properly understand what the thief class is ultimately supposed to be doing. I thought it was supposed to be powerful single-target damage, but that keeps getting hit. Evading and dodges are one of our only escape mechanics, but that’s getting hit. Thieves have one of the lowest health pools overall, and we might be getting help, but you’re right that “Hard to Catch” is… complete trash. We’ve all seen how well that kind of thing works with Mesmers, what with them getting stuck in walls all the time before.

Who are they even listening to when they’re doing these changes? I’d like to have faith in the ANet team, but it’s hard when some of these things just aren’t making sense. =/

You can divine ANet’s design intent by looking at what they did nerf vs what they did not nerf:

- D/D, P/D did not get nerfed. These are premiere single-target specs (though one focuses on burst, and the other on attrition). They still want us to be good at killing single-targets. We will be

- D/P got nerfed. This was a cheesy spec. They don’t like cheesy specs. Nor do most of us

- S/D mobility got nerfed. ANet thinks this was a cheesy ability, a pseudo-stunbreak on a weapon skill. I think most of us disagree, but that was their stated thinking

- Initiative gain got rearranged. They’re trying to open up spec options. They may have caused some collateral damage in doing so (P/P, already weak, probably got weaker due to the Opportunist nerf). But their intent is clear

- The new heal is an attempt to make a venom share/ support spec more viable. Personally, I think it’s a bad idea poorly executed. I like the intent, though. As with the initiative changes, they’re trying to give thieves more options for viable builds (note, they’re doing the exact same thing with elementalists)

As for Hard to Catch (and Shadow Refuge), every class has useless traits, often the residue of design changes in the early game (how about that +bundle damage on Improvisation). Thieves are not different. This is just something ANet hasn’t got round to fixing. Presumably, they will.

Anaeli.8053:

Do thieves need a nerf? Speaking as a main thief player, yes, probably, and the perma-stealth thing is ridiculous, but I’m legitimately confused on what’s being done to this class.

ArenaNet looks at the different playstyles of Thieves and they try to makes changes so that those who mindlessly attack a target through stun, blind, and retaliation should be rewarded for their mindless effort, tenacity, and perseverance. These are new players playing Thieves who didn’t know any better but instead of helping these players grow, ArenaNet choose to lower the standard instead.

In the same way, it is too much for noobs to handle a well played Thieves so ArenaNet attached some balls-and-chain to prevent Thieves from dodging too much.

Think about it like Thieves are professional basketball player, but instead for playing professionally, we are playing in a charity event — of course, in that event, we should tone down our abilities to make every one else look good. In a sense, WvW and PvP are charity events.

Yeah, I agree that pushing thieves to venom isn’t a good solution. Lets hope that they rethink,

roostergoblin.2801:

Master of Timespace.2548:

They just can’t admit that “hard to catch” is a trash trait by desing? Nobody wants to be randomly teleported around. Why is this so difficult for them to understand? Really makes me wonder where they get these people…

my guess is they just pick them up off the street

From the warrior forums.

Yeah, exactly Anaeili. Most of their balance changes are, as my theorycrafting buddy best put it, flabbergasting. Having sword pulled out from under us is the nail in the coffin for thief for me for a bit.

Reducing the damage of stun skills like Staggering Blow and Earthshaker by 25% don’t really matter when I’m still stunlocked for an hour and my base health pool starts at 10.8k. “Use your utility skills” seems to be their answer. Is one Shadowstep and one Blinding Powder gonna get me out of 6 cc’s back to back from a 20-30k health warrior that can basically match my deeps?

Mirror Owl.7204:

Having sword pulled out from under us is the nail in the coffin for thief for me for a bit.

I love how inaccurate that expression “nail in the coffin” because when it comes to Thieves, we’re already 6ft under and decomposing.

it’s good we need more nerfs because some “thieves” still think we will be amazing after dec.10

Mirror Owl.7204:

Reducing the damage of stun skills like Staggering Blow and Earthshaker by 25% don’t really matter when I’m still stunlocked for an hour and my base health pool starts at 10.8k. “Use your utility skills” seems to be their answer. Is one Shadowstep and one Blinding Powder gonna get me out of 6 cc’s back to back from a 20-30k health warrior that can basically match my deeps?

This. So much.

Excalibur.9748:

it’s good we need more nerfs because some “thieves” still think we will be amazing after dec.10

:D good thing there’s a….
Nerf Wish List!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-list

(I know you know, I’m just advertising)

Oghier.7419:

- D/P got nerfed. This was a cheesy spec. They don’t like cheesy specs. Nor do most of us

This, I agree with in full, and I’m actually glad to be hearing that I’m not alone in this opinion when it seems like all I hear is people who adore them.

- S/D mobility got nerfed. ANet thinks this was a cheesy ability, a pseudo-stunbreak on a weapon skill. I think most of us disagree, but that was their stated thinking

Personally never ran S/D all that much, but when I did, I didn’t notice any cheesiness. It was no more cheesy than some of the cheese that warriors have. But, hey, I guess that’s why we’re the players and they’re the developers?

- The new heal is an attempt to make a venom share/ support spec more viable. Personally, I think it’s a bad idea poorly executed. I like the intent, though. As with the initiative changes, they’re trying to give thieves more options for viable builds (note, they’re doing the exact same thing with elementalists)

Wait, really? Hm. I might have to look back on the new heal, but I do honestly like the idea. The execution might be bad, but it does feel like a good idea. Venom share/Support specs might benefit from it. Or it’ll be OP out of the gate and nerfed to the ground. Kind of hoping it turns out for the better. (Also, I haven’t looked much at elementalists, as my ele seems to be comfortable where she is 99.9% of the time)

Sir Vincent III.1286

ArenaNet looks at the different playstyles of Thieves and they try to makes changes so that those who mindlessly attack a target through stun, blind, and retaliation should be rewarded for their mindless effort, tenacity, and perseverance. These are new players playing Thieves who didn’t know any better but instead of helping these players grow, ArenaNet choose to lower the standard instead.

In the same way, it is too much for noobs to handle a well played Thieves so ArenaNet attached some balls-and-chain to prevent Thieves from dodging too much.

Think about it like Thieves are professional basketball player, but instead for playing professionally, we are playing in a charity event — of course, in that event, we should tone down our abilities to make every one else look good. In a sense, WvW and PvP are charity events.

… Okay. That… is one of the things I was afraid of. And it makes me angry. I don’t want the class easier. I love the challenge. It’s the only thing keeping me from being bored to tears nowadays.

Zacchary.6183:

They want thieves to be free loot bags so all the baddies would stop complaining.

Doooooooom and gloooooooom.

This isnt the end of the world. You will adapt and get better or fail and reroll. There is more to the class than 1 cheese d/p spec.

Anaeli.8053:

… Okay. That… is one of the things I was afraid of. And it makes me angry. I don’t want the class easier. I love the challenge. It’s the only thing keeping me from being bored to tears nowadays.

Yup. The closer the update gets, the angrier I get.

Just the other night I re-spec’d to 0/30/30/10/0 and I pour all my hatred on a poor group consists of a Staff Guardian, Staff Elementalist and Sw/Sw Warrior all by myself. Then I went to chase this Asura Mesmer from FA who was trying to run away, started from the water camp all the way to East Keep entrance. I got that Mesmer but the other players from SoS took my kill and made me even more angry. That mesmer was good, but I was winning it. Grrr…

Are they nerfing the “I started a fight that I can’t finish” spec in this update?

Maladon.5760:

Are they nerfing the “I started a fight that I can’t finish” spec in this update?

Any glass cannon has that dysfunction.

Hard to catch and last refuge… please take these out – like everyone here has said 10,000x in this post and others, escape mechanics that you cannot control or predict are completely aweful, and actually get me killed more often than they do help :<.

sword #2 return nerf is really brutal, but i honestly have no issues with the initiative traits getting hit. The initiation regen baseline IS huge and is going to be very nice imo. Dagger/pistol perma stealth nerf = goodbye abusive and boring mechanic. Flopping around like a fish in a dark field was never fun and really isnt all that useful.

Healing skill – eh… i just don’t get this push for venoms. What are we supposed to do, share our venoms, attack maybe 5 times and gtfo? Thieves just don’t have the same group combat AoE or synergy that other classes do… Not to mention the glaring fact you have to sacrifice shadow rejuv for it, venoms rarely make their way onto my bar.

Its not even a fair vs unfair, balanced vs OP argument for me, its just really not all that fun for me to play thief anymore. Not QQ i moved on long ago just think its kinda sad such a COOL character in the game is kinda blah atm.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maladon.5760:

Are they nerfing the “I started a fight that I can’t finish” spec in this update?

Any glass cannon has that dysfunction.

Warriors are about the only other class that gets this benefit though. They definitely can exit a fight they cannot win.

DirtyBird.6093:

Hard to catch and last refuge… please take these out – like everyone here has said 10,000x in this post and others, escape mechanics that you cannot control or predict are completely aweful, and actually get me killed more often than they do help :<.

sword #2 return nerf is really brutal, but i honestly have no issues with the initiative traits getting hit. The initiation regen baseline IS huge and is going to be very nice imo. Dagger/pistol perma stealth nerf = goodbye abusive and boring mechanic. Flopping around like a fish in a dark field was never fun and really isnt all that useful.

Healing skill – eh… i just don’t get this push for venoms. What are we supposed to do, share our venoms, attack maybe 5 times and gtfo? Thieves just don’t have the same group combat AoE or synergy that other classes do… Not to mention the glaring fact you have to sacrifice shadow rejuv for it, venoms rarely make their way onto my bar.

Its not even a fair vs unfair, balanced vs OP argument for me, its just really not all that fun for me to play thief anymore. Not QQ i moved on long ago just think its kinda sad such a COOL character in the game is kinda blah atm.

A thousand times this, with one nitpick.

It’s a fair and balanced argument for me and it should be for everyone. Even people who aren’t thieves. People should take issue with a flawed sense of balance.

The only reason to nerf something should if it’s wrecking or negatively distorting a meta, or is blatantly borked (some of those oldschool Mes skills that could shoot through walls, etc.). Sword thief wasn’t exactly a meta wrecking ball. If it was annoying devs in spvp, nerf it there then and leave it alone in WvW.

It had a lot of play to it if you were a skilled pilot. Evidently that’s a Bad Thing.

I really wish that Anet would separate Spvp from wvw balancing too. The games are quite different.

Sanduskel.1850:

I really wish that Anet would separate Spvp from wvw balancing too. The games are quite different.

Actually they should do the opposite and balance on an even smaller scale. If every 1v1 between any combination of classes came down to the best player winning the game would be much better.

Maladon.5760:

Sanduskel.1850:

I really wish that Anet would separate Spvp from wvw balancing too. The games are quite different.

Actually they should do the opposite and balance on an even smaller scale. If every 1v1 between any combination of classes came down to the best player winning the game would be much better.

I wonder if that’s possible, as the real issue is build more than class. If I fight an elementalist of equal skill, for example, the odds of me winning if he’s staff are significantly better than if he’s D/D.

Every class has ‘duel’ builds, AoE builds, support specs and hybrids of all three.

What is balance anyway? One build has a high chance to beat all builds? Or One build can completely destroy a build but is destroyed by another build (paper-rock-scissor)? Or One build can destroy some, stalemate with some, and destroyed by some?

Or any Warrior build should destroy all other builds…

Thief
Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

They should replace it now with “Experts at giving lootbags to enemies,thieves can move through opponet zergs and vanish into thin air leaving your opponet a lootbag,or steal items from your opponets and bring the lootbag to them.Thieves practice on agile,acrobatic fighting style,which can make them hard to hit,so if you want a lootbag,just tell your opponet the exact crap i just said.”

I too geared out my thief in hopes that the “Nerfing” was just a threat and it wasn’t going to be as bad as predicted only to find out they made a few more “Adjustments” than they stated they would. I’m truly disappointed as I found the profession very challenging and fun even with the low health pool I could still bring some utility to a group by being very evasive and keeping key players up in a PVE group while able to dish out a good share of damage.

Devs, while you may think you’re “balancing” pvp, you’re hurting people who enjoy pve and making this class un-enjoyable across the board for everyone. I personally have 7 other professions to choose from now as I like to compare damage and playability aspects of each profession available. I am going to miss my thief sorely and I’m truly saddened as many of us spent a fair share of time grinding for gear (Yes, I’m sorry… I said it. Grinding. And grinding is never fun.) only to have a choice of making another profession. Soon the only option will be shelving your game as you nerf every single class to a point where everyone is equally unhappy and uninstalls. How about we stop “Nerfing” and start “Buffing” to balance things out? Maybe it’d make people a bit happier?

This thread will more than likely self destruct in less than 30 minutes due to stating my own opinion. INFRACTION INC!

-Ronin