Guild Wars 2

Pistol main hand
1. Vital Shot – no change, other than to make P1 a chained skill
-> Body Shot – reduce dmg to match vital shot, vulnerabilty duration reduced to 2 stacks for 3s

-> Double Shot – (275 dmg, same cast as VS & BS), fire two shots dealing extra dmg

1. Sneak Attack – no change

2. Onslaught – Leap at your foe and shoot them from point blank range, deals additional damage for each condition on your target (PBoT, 250 base dmg, 5% additional dmg for each condition on target, 600 Rng, 4 int).

3.Repeater – no change

3.Shadow Strike – add 2 stacks of bleeding for 3s on initial stab, no other change

3.Unload – Evade (2s) and blast your foe repeatedly with both pistols dealing more dmg the closer your are to your target
<300 rng 101 per
300-600 rng 80 per
>600 rng 65 per

Pistol Offhand
4.Head Shot – really tempted to increase daze to 1/2s, but say leave it as is for now

5.Black Powder – no change

Too OP? Not enough?

Idea is to give thieves a second AoE option and increased dmg with P/P

Stays in line with the recent boon hate additions given to thief via the sword

Adds an extremely powerful AoE in Vicious Blast but with a conditional element to keep it from being a spammable skill

VB would remove a boon from each foe it hits

More dmg in Unload as an AoE with short bleeds, but an easier to evade skill

Trying to make P/P an attractive option to condition spec thieves with lots of conditions

edit: VB may be too specific as stated here, possible reduce the dmg and remove the “remove boon” condition and replace it with “if tracer hits”

Dude. I was just thinking about how we need a rehaul of Pistol main hand skills. The only problem I see is you are really stepping on the sword’s toes with the current skills. Weakness should be what defines Sword and the boon rip Sword/ Dagger.

I really like the idea to make P1 a combo instead of just buffing the damage or attack speed but giving the pistol access to weakness would make it a bit too strong. Weakness just got a big buff. Perhaps instead of giving it weakness it has a short duration poison, just enough to have the poison not stack duration without condi duration+ items. Instead combo 1 applies bleeds, combo 2 bleed and vuln, and combo 3 poison.

Also P2 is way too kitten stong. I am going to eat dinner and ponder it some. I think the main problem is that boon ripping should be a s/d specific thing.

Ideas aren’t too bad but imo, I think pistols should stick to superior single-target damage just like daggers. Range AoE on thieves are perfectly fine with just SBs, so the ground-targetting AoE on Unload that you suggested doesn’t appeal to me.
Also, I too think boon ripping should stay with S/D to give it an edge. Instead, have something similar to the shortbow skill 3 maybe, such as “Performing a roll, dodging incoming attacks, and fire a shot causing weakness and making foes vulnerable”.
That was just an idea on a spot, I’m sure other people has more constructive ideas though.

Back. I actually missed the AoE on Unload. That wouldn’t work frankly due to the fact that you can’t have a projectile finisher with an AoE skill. Now for P2.

Personally, I think your change is a step in the right direction but is way, way too strong. A blind/ boon rip to an instant cast blast that rips another boon is just way too good regardless of damage. I mean you could do P2(1)→steal→P5→P2(2) for a blind field, 2 boon rips, and aoe stealth for you and allies. Granted it would take a lot of init but a steal could replace 3 init and the stealth could replace 2 with traits. I also believe boon rips should be THE thing that makes playing S/D unique. Instead, pistol main-hand should focus on single-target condition damage like Porch Donkey said. We can add to that role in two ways

1. making pistol two deal more varied conditions to cover the main source of damage( P1’s bleeds) with an overhaul

2. increase the ability to stack vulnerability, making other skills do more damage.

My solutions for the two paths are

1. Overhaul P2 completely.
New Skill- Overpacked Shot- a 4 init charge skill consisting of two elements, an instant 900 range projectile finisher that applies 5 vuln for 6 secs, and a jet of flame out the muzzle that applies 5 secs of burning. The longer you charge the shot the longer the jet of flame is. No charge would mean a 300 range jet, over one second of charge gets a 600 range flame and at 2 seconds you get a 900 range jet. The jet can only hit 2 targets before not affecting enemies. I would actually be fine with this reducing movement speed during the charge or even a root.

2. Buff current P2
There are multiple things that could be done; speeding up the animation so there is less down time, lowering init, increasing the number of stacks or the duration. Any of these could work to make P2 a more valuable skill to thief but they are also rather bland and don’t help that Pistol mainhand is about condition damage but has a skill that doesn’t hep with that.

Frankly, I would really like the ability for Pistol Main hand to get the ability to deal a larger variety of conditions thus allowing it to both compete in PvP and be more useful to PvE players. Currently there is just little cooperation between what Pistol main hand wants to be(single-target condi-damage) and what it has(the ability to stack vuln which only benefits direct damage).

I like these changes, but even with these changes P/P still lacks the mobility. It could just be a main weapon set, rather than a secondary and use SB as the secondary for mobility.

I like this, gives P/P some synergy, and fluidity.

@EoNxBoNx.9213 What if Unload stayed the way it is right now but you also got a 25% run speed boost while firing. This could allow you to make sure your shots hit and also use it as an escape(back pedaling from enemies while unloading from both barrels seems really cool).

Zamiel.2791:

@EoNxBoNx.9213 What if Unload stayed the way it is right now but you also got a 25% run speed boost while firing. This could allow you to make sure your shots hit and also use it as an escape(back pedaling from enemies while unloading from both barrels seems really cool).

That could work, maybe 10-12s of swiftness instead of a flat movement speed boost. That way it can be countered by boon hate. Also could get Sigent of Shadows to help with out of combat mobility.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

That could work, maybe 10-12s of swiftness instead of a flat movement speed boost. That way it can be countered by boon hate. Also could get Sigent of Shadows to help with out of combat mobility.

10-12 might be a bit much, I think 8 would be good. I still think a flat 25% speed boost would be best because thieves can already perma swift

Unload shouldn’t be the main source of damage, it should be a situational use skill. Vital shot needs to come up in attack speed or damage. Unload needs to come down in damage and do something like clear condi or give regen, that is if they dont plan on giving p/p a stealth skill.

I still think they need give each weapon combo their own skills. Sneak Attack works with p/d not with p/p, Black Powder really makes no sense on p/p but works well with d/p, Dancing Daggers doesn’t really make sense with p/d.

Why take unload if you can take a /P mesmer.
Straight damage skills don’t make sense with initiative. Srs. HS works because it’s conditional dmg, Shadow shot because it has utility functions.
I’d Scrap body shot unload and reverse Shadow strike.

casey.1546:

Unload shouldn’t be the main source of damage, it should be a situational use skill. Vital shot needs to come up in attack speed or damage. Unload needs to come down in damage and do something like clear condi or give regen, that is if they dont plan on giving p/p a stealth skill.

I still think they need give each weapon combo their own skills. Sneak Attack works with p/d not with p/p, Black Powder really makes no sense on p/p but works well with d/p, Dancing Daggers doesn’t really make sense with p/d.

True, unload shouldn’t be the main source of damage with p/p but it should be a worthwhile burst skill while the conditions from pistol main hand wear the opponent down. But the problem with that is that Pistol main hand doesn’t deal enough conditions. Unload could work as it is right now if it was a 100% projectile finisher meaning more conditions faster or even condi removal.

As far as vital shot is concerned I believe it either needs a flat buff or an overhaul to make it deal poison damage too.

casey.1546:

I still think they need give each weapon combo their own skills. Sneak Attack works with p/d not with p/p, Black Powder really makes no sense on p/p but works well with d/p, Dancing Daggers doesn’t really make sense with p/d.

I disagree here. Having each weapon set have a different stealth skill would actually pigeon hole each set way more than it should. Sneak attack shouldn’t be the main source of damage for P/P considering they have unload while it very well can be with P/D due to it having C&D. Black Powder works fine on P/P because it gives out the ability to deal far off blinds and stop enemies form hitting close up(which is the same reason it is good with both sword and dagger). And I just don’t understand why you think Dancing Daggers doesn’t mesh with P/D. P/D is a great survival set that focuses on keeping back from targets and having C&D or the combo skill to make distance while DD slows their advance. Also, DD is a projectile finisher that bounces which is always useful.

ensoriki.5789:

Why take unload if you can take a /P mesmer.

Because Unload has no cooldown and thieves have plenty of ways to get init back. Not saying it doesn’t need a rework just saying that a multi-shot projectile finisher should stay on P/P 3.

ensoriki.5789:

Straight damage skills don’t make sense with initiative. Srs.

No. Cool. Down.

ensoriki.5789:

I’d Scrap body shot unload and reverse Shadow strike.

I agree on Body Shot, disagree on Unload and Shadow Strike. Unload just needs some sort of buff and Shadow Strike is a great gap creator.

Black Powder works fine on P/P because it gives out the ability to deal far off blinds and stop enemies form hitting close up(which is the same reason it is good with both sword and dagger).

Every time I’ve used it, I’m long gone from that area. Standing in one spot is a death sentence.

And I just don’t understand why you think Dancing Daggers doesn’t mesh with P/D. P/D is a great survival set that focuses on keeping back from targets

You’re right, I didn’t really think that one through.

I’m not sure if P/D would appreciate the changes =p

I posted a bit of this in the other thread, but I suppose it merits a second mention.

P1 – Vital Shot: Same mechanics. Higher base damage (or rate of fire).
P1a (Stealth) – Kurzick Roulette: Single shot, X damage. Inflict a random condition (5s Confusion x5, 5s Bleeding x7, 5s Vulnerability x10). Sequence skill, turns into Cheap Shot if the condition inflicted was already on the foe.
P1b – Cheap Shot: Fire a second shot with the same RNG as Kurzick Roulette. Inflicts a 1/4s Daze.

P2 – Concussion Volley: Three shots, X damage. 3s Confusion x2 and 3s Vulnerability x1 per shot. Channeled skill, 1.75s. 4 Initiative.

P3a (Offhand Pistol) – Unload: Keep as-is, but every shot drops 2s Vulnerability x2. Channeled skill, 1.75s. 5 Initiative.

P3b (Offhand Dagger) – Sabot: Charge and fire an incendiary round.
Minimum charge: 1s Burning, 3s Blind.
Mid charge (1s): 3s Burning, 5s Blind.
Maximum charge (2s): 1/2s Daze, 5s Burning, 5s Blind.
Charge skill, .25s/1s/2s. 4 Initiative.

casey.1546:

Every time I’ve used it, I’m long gone from that area. Standing in one spot is a death sentence.

It isn’t to be used against every mob or every opponent but it does have it’s time and place.

SharadSun.3089:

I’m not sure if P/D would appreciate the changes =p

Can’t tell if serious. . .

As far as your Stealth Pistol skill goes I am a firm believer of RNG being bad with things like this. I would much rather just have Sneak Shot than the possibility to deal a bunch of different conditions. As far as the two skill goes I would actually be okay with it but I can already hear the whining of non-thief players hating that thieves can stack so much confusion. That is a kitten load of confusion. A bit too much vuln(16 over the course of a few seconds is really high) on Unload but otherwise a solid change. I like the idea behind Sabot but I still would rather have the gap creator of Shadow Strike. It is a really under appreciated skill.

Zamiel.2791:

Can’t tell if serious. . .

hurf

:B

@Roulette: It actually wouldn’t be an RNG, used properly xD you get the ability to deal high condition damage or increase your ability to deal direct damage, both in line with the P/D Rampager/Rabid meta. The added ability to cast a second Roulette would be a contest of skill; if the target knows to condition clear while the Thief is in stealth, then the chance of proccing the daze is reduced by a large amount. But if the Thief is smart with his timing, he can get a reliable daze + a lot of condition utility off reliably.

@Opener: I WOULD agree, if not for the fact that Shadow Strike offers absolutely nothing to any viable P/D build other than said gapcloser. The damage that a Rabid/Carrion/Rampager build can deal with the skill alone is either pitiful, or not worth spending the resources investing into. Besides, with Cloak and Dagger requiring a melee distance, the gap that Shadow Strike creates is actually detrimental to the playstyle.

SharadSun.3089:

@Opener: I WOULD agree, if not for the fact that Shadow Strike offers absolutely nothing to any viable P/D build other than said gapcloser. The damage that a Rabid/Carrion/Rampager build can deal with the skill alone is either pitiful, or not worth spending the resources investing into. Besides, with Cloak and Dagger requiring a melee distance, the gap that Shadow Strike creates is actually detrimental to the playstyle.

If Pistol Mainhand was fixed we wouldn’t need another damage skill. Also the gap creation is very useful in both pvp and pve to get out of sticky situations(a 3 init cost would make it a lot more useful I admit). Getting close enough should never be an issue for thief due to the propensity of evades and gap closers we possess.

Zamiel.2791:

SharadSun.3089:

@Opener: I WOULD agree, if not for the fact that Shadow Strike offers absolutely nothing to any viable P/D build other than said gapcloser. The damage that a Rabid/Carrion/Rampager build can deal with the skill alone is either pitiful, or not worth spending the resources investing into. Besides, with Cloak and Dagger requiring a melee distance, the gap that Shadow Strike creates is actually detrimental to the playstyle.

If Pistol Mainhand was fixed we wouldn’t need another damage skill. Also the gap creation is very useful in both pvp and pve to get out of sticky situations(a 3 init cost would make it a lot more useful I admit). Getting close enough should never be an issue for thief due to the propensity of evades and gap closers we possess.

xD I guess I just hate having useless skills on my bar.

That’s the only reason that HGH and other builds are so good right now; every single skill is actually used. There’s no skill that goes unused with the most powerful builds in this game, and as a P/D Thief, literally all I would be able to do is press 5 > 1 > 5 > 1 > dodge > dodge > 5 > F. If I ever actually get the chance to press F, that is.

S/D thief has it a little easier I suppose. But Dancing Dagger is still woefully useless and entirely unused. If it had a Blind or a 1/4s Immobilize on it, though… I could see it being used quite widely.

SharadSun.3089:

S/D thief has it a little easier I suppose. But Dancing Dagger is still woefully useless and entirely unused. If it had a Blind or a 1/4s Immobilize on it, though… I could see it being used quite widely.

Dude, if you honestly think DD has no use you are not using Thief to its potential. As far as P/D is concerned think a gap creator is really necessary for PvP.

Zamiel.2791:

SharadSun.3089:

S/D thief has it a little easier I suppose. But Dancing Dagger is still woefully useless and entirely unused. If it had a Blind or a 1/4s Immobilize on it, though… I could see it being used quite widely.

Dude, if you honestly think DD has no use you are not using Thief to its potential. As far as P/D is concerned think a gap creator is really necessary for PvP.

Useless is the wrong word, maybe xD

But Cripple is such a common condition, and so easily applied by any other means. And the damage it deals is not worth 4 initiative.

I was thinking of making Sabot a self-knockback with a higher effect for 6 initiative, but I feel like a gap-opener really isn’t the P/D style. Stealthtanking is one of the few things that Thieves can actually do right, so having a gunbrawler-like melee gunner class wouldn’t be so bad IMO =)

Some things about the opening post ideas:

Ranged auto-attacks (specially bullet/arrow based ranged attacks) generally don’t have chains. The only exceptions are on scepter attacks where each iteration has a different animation to identify them. Even then the scheme is generally skill 1 = skill 2 < skill3. And as I said it’s something really rare and I don’t think it’s needed.

Aditionally P/D users need all those Vita Shots applying bleeds (I’ve said it many times, this is sad but it’s because the introduction of stealth attacks which forced Pistol main hand to change in development, but as is in its current state, if you take the bleeds from the auto-attack on P/D you hurt the set).

I know you included 2 bleeds on the dual skill for that but it isn’t a good replacement because of initiative management.

The second skill is a bit overdone for a #2 skill: It has a blind, 2 boon removals (on 2 iterations, one of them a boon steal) and a blast finisher. You’re asking way too much for a #2 skill that should be really cheap. And what is PBoT?

Your unload idea is something I was thinking yesterday, but your is a bit too much. Ground targeting and 1 bleed per shot/hit in the field would be really powerful (8 bleeds on multiple targets for 8 initiative). Also ground targeting in a chaneled projectile skill while moving is hard to implement, in fact I think it doesn’t exist (Barrage or Meteor Shower for example roots the Ranger and Elementalist) because it would need to do too many things (make your character always face the same point while being able to move and shoot which I beleve the engine can’t support as you can turn freely and you never fix targes in the sense that the camera moves around them), and ground targeting bullets doesn’t make too much sense anyway.

What I though was in this lines: Each of the 8 bullets has a 50% to apply bleeding and 50% chance to apply weakness. Each bullet basic damage is reduced slightly to compensate for the chance of applying a bleed.

This is a modification of a previous idea I had where Unload would apply 0.5 seconds weakness per bullet so it would work as defensive utility for both personal use and group support.

As a major problem is that Vital Shot doesn’t synergize with Unload (something that as I said is this way because you either hurt P/D or P/P) you throw bleeds at Unload (in an average of 4 bleeds per use with still solid direct damage which sounds great) and make it a condition set that would work well with Carrion equipment to boost both the direct and condition damage.

It would also still give the utility of weakness, so you can defend yourself and also it reduces the opponent number of dodges, which is what really hurts Unload (1 dodge and he avoids all bullets).

An average of 4 bleeds + variable Weakness + Unload direct damage with a slight reduction per bullet to compensate for the bleeds sounds good for 5 initiative and would synergize with the auto-attack. Maybe even we would need to tone it down a bit (like 40-40 chance and 20 of not adding conditions on that bullet), but on paper looks good. Ground targeting of 8 bleeding shots sounds like way too much for 5 initiative.

The problem with pistol is that you have two builds

P/D condition, which is very powerful

and P/P direct damage, which is weak.

You can’t really buff one without imbalancing the other, by either making it too powerful or too weak

Although you could outright turn P/P into a condition set by adding conditions to unload and taking away the vulnerability from #2, replacing it with something of more use such as poison, blind, ect

Personally I would love if #2 applied poison for 4s base, and not that horrible vulnerability.

But P/D isn’t powerful. It consistently struggles to find a place in PvP because it is outclassed by the other sets.

I think Lokheit is along the right track with Unload but it still doesn’t help with the fact that Body Shot is almost useless because Pistol main hand is a condition set with a skill that doesn’t really help it(Body Shot). As far as no combo with Pistol 1 due to animations I hadn’t thought about that. Maybe instead of a 3 hit combo it just had a 2 hit combo with one firing a bleed and two firing a bleed/poison. It would fire a bit slower and put out a bit less bleeds but the poison would both help cover the bleeds from being cured and bring up the damage.

@Zamiel I was going to add in the other post something I’ve said other times about Body Shot but the character limit didn’t let me add it and as I’ve said it other times I just scraped that part.

Basically my opinion in Body Shot is that it should be able to synergize with Black Powder. BP is a great skill but has litle use on P/P.

The 2 ways of making them work together would be:

Make BS a spread attack that at close range (when all projectiles hit) is good enough to go for it with your initiative pool, so you cover yourself with Black Powder while spamming #2, sacrificing range for a good burst.

Or:

Make it a blast finisher centered around the Thief. My idea that I posted other times is make it a melee range shot that pushes (without interrupting) the target and does litle damage but is a blast finisher in your position. It isn’t abusable to control your target (spamable ranged push would be too much), and because it only hits at melee range, you can benefit from the combo finisher to get stealth with Black Powder and access to Sneak Attack (though you would need to get rid of melee targets first as if you damage them, you automatically reveal yourself with current game mechanics, this is why I make it a melee range skill, because if it had a 900 range bullet it would break stealth right after applying it).

It also aliviates part of the mobility problems on the set as you can push melee targets away.

With that and the mentioned change to Unload P/P would be a great condition set. It may be too much as you could use that stealth to scape fights (though D/P already has a similar combo to scape fights and is still around). It could be done as a channeled skill, the more you hold the farthest you send the target, and make it only a blast finisher when you 100% hold it (you would do quick shots to push targets and long pushes when you think you can get the stealth) so it’s easy to see if you’re going for it and counter it so it’s not OP, and on top of that unlike D/P you wouldn’t be able to use it multiple times on the same smoke field as you would need channeling time and the field would disappear after the first one.

I think the push skill might look well even without the Blast Finisher (but maybe re-ading the vulnerability to compensate) if the change to Unload is done, the only problem is that then BP wouldn’t synergize with anything in the set.

@Lokheit Yea, that would be a cool skill I just don’t see it as being too thiefy. Plus, knockbacks aren’t in the thief play set yet and I don’t think they should have them. even if they don’t affect skill use. I liked your idea for a narrow spread on Body Shot. Multiple projectiles would make it a lot more useful.

Nicely thought out, but overpowered.

You are combining way too much into the auto attack. Bleed, vulnerability and weakness. Too much good in one skill which doesn’t even have initiative cost!

Here is a comparison with the closest similar weapon I could find:

Engineer’s Elixir Gun (EG) tranqulizer dart does one stack one bleeding as thief’s Vital Shot.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vital_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tranquilizer_Dart

Note how identical the damage is. Even the range is the same 900. EG #1 does 1 s weakness, but Vital shot has faster attacking speed, thus thief’s pistol does more attacks per time, leading also to higher number bleed stacks. And sneak attack of course does more damage and 5 bleed stacks. Combine this with caltrops (uncatchable trait) and you can easily get 20+ stacks of bleed in just couple of seconds. Now if it would also stack vulnerability and permanent weakness… way too much and since it is 3 condition stack (4 conditions counting cripple from caltrops), most other professions could not cleanse that stack.

Not really overpowered, look at necromancer’s scepter. It is not only faster but better.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Nicely thought out, but overpowered.

You are combining way too much into the auto attack. Bleed, vulnerability and weakness. Too much good in one skill which doesn’t even have initiative cost!

Here is a comparison with the closest similar weapon I could find:

Engineer’s Elixir Gun (EG) tranqulizer dart does one stack one bleeding as thief’s Vital Shot.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vital_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tranquilizer_Dart

Note how identical the damage is. Even the range is the same 900. EG #1 does 1 s weakness, but Vital shot has faster attacking speed, thus thief’s pistol does more attacks per time, leading also to higher number bleed stacks. And sneak attack of course does more damage and 5 bleed stacks. Combine this with caltrops (uncatchable trait) and you can easily get 20+ stacks of bleed in just couple of seconds. Now if it would also stack vulnerability and permanent weakness… way too much and since it is 3 condition stack (4 conditions counting cripple from caltrops), most other professions could not cleanse that stack.

Actually all pistols share the same attack speed of about 0.87.

Engineer pistol can also be 1200m range and also pierce and deal more damage and hit 5 (up to 25 with piercing.) targets and spread those conditions around.

There is a good reason Thief pistol is considered one of the worst weapon sets in the game. (Along with Guard Scepter.)

Sorry my friend, but please think a little before you shout things like its overpowered, and test the pistols firing rate before you say things like Oh, its faster.

Pistols should be 0.5 refire rate, however atm they are 0.87, about the same as your elixir gun actually.

Daecollo.9578:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Nicely thought out, but overpowered.

You are combining way too much into the auto attack. Bleed, vulnerability and weakness. Too much good in one skill which doesn’t even have initiative cost!

Here is a comparison with the closest similar weapon I could find:

Engineer’s Elixir Gun (EG) tranqulizer dart does one stack one bleeding as thief’s Vital Shot.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vital_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tranquilizer_Dart

Note how identical the damage is. Even the range is the same 900. EG #1 does 1 s weakness, but Vital shot has faster attacking speed, thus thief’s pistol does more attacks per time, leading also to higher number bleed stacks. And sneak attack of course does more damage and 5 bleed stacks. Combine this with caltrops (uncatchable trait) and you can easily get 20+ stacks of bleed in just couple of seconds. Now if it would also stack vulnerability and permanent weakness… way too much and since it is 3 condition stack (4 conditions counting cripple from caltrops), most other professions could not cleanse that stack.

Actually all pistols share the same attack speed of about 0.87.

Engineer pistol can also be 1200m range and also pierce and deal more damage and hit 5 (up to 25 with piercing.) targets and spread those conditions around.

There is a good reason Thief pistol is considered one of the worst weapon sets in the game. (Along with Guard Scepter.)

If you had actually read my post, I was talking about elixir gun, not pistol. Coated bullets 30 point grandmaster trait only affects 2 engineer pistol attacks:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coated_Bullets
And it doesn’t work with elixir gun.

Thief’s pistol does more damage over time than engineer’s EG, even though their auto attack tool tip is surprisingly similar. Now giving 3 conditions from an auto attack, what the OP suggested, is simply too much. Especially considering the synergy with other traits + skills. Why do you think the engineer has been nerfed a lot in past 6 months? Because stacking a lot of different conditions is murder against many builds. Imagine having constant (100% uptime) bleed, weakness, vulnerability, cripple and blind on your character. Your condition removal might remove some of them, but those bleed stacks could remain and tick so much pressure damage it would eat through almost anything.

And before you start flaming that bleed is a weak useless condition. Let’s assume 2000 in condition damage. That is 142.5 dmg/s per bleed stack at level 80. With 20 stacks that would be 2850 dmg/s from bleed alone. That is very easily achieved and maintained with condition duration increase traits + runes (+ consumables), plus abusing caltrops + sneak attack.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleed

Normally bleed is not a big issue as it can be removed, but having tons of other conditions complicates the situation a lot.

Guardian’s scepter #1 attack speed is going to be fixed in some future update (word from Anet developer). So let’s keep this out of this discussion.

This is about thieves, not engineers. The Engineer forum is that way. Elixir gun is far better then the pistol because of what it does and how much utility/team play it brings.

Thanks for all the feedback, made some updates and adjustments based on some of the feedback.

Removed any condition application from Double Shot and increased the damage a bit

Added more mobility to the P main by changing P2 to Onslaught

Gave unload a 2s evade and gave it reduced damage at greater distance to compensate, with the new P2, getting into range for the full dmg effect of Unload is possible…

thoughts?

As has been stated many times- P/P (and to some extent P/D) has various minor and debatable problems, but it has exactly one egregious problem that plays a disproportionately large role in why it’s so bad, and that is this:

Unload improperly steals the role of standard primary DPS from Vital Shot, which massively disrupts the tempo of the set and screws over every other skill by switching the resource game from one utility vs another utility to any utility vs. DPS.

That’s it. There’s nothing (majorly) wrong with Body Shot, Head Shot, or Black Powder- 90% of the set’s issues stem from the backwards dynamic between Vital Shot and Unload. With that said, this is all that’s really needed to fix P/P, and should be implemented before any other tweaks are made:

1. A buff to Vital Shot so that it properly functions as your main source of steady DPS

2. A redesign of Unload to have a more specialized role that makes it more comparable to the other Initiative skills such as an AoE spray.

All of the first 3 P/X skills are poor.

First buff the damage of Vital Shot a bit. Second reduce Unload to 4 shots instead of 8 and give it the same mechanic as Heart Seaker.