Thief QQ inconsistency and some real problems

Thief QQ inconsistency and some real problems

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Posted by: Katsumoto.9452

Katsumoto.9452

When people moan about the Thief, can we at least get some consistency. I hear things such as you have no time to react as you don’t see the Thief etc. So here is how it really works and the problems with the current thief regarding weapon sets.

You cannot do the steal-cnd-backstab combo from stealth. Therefore you can see the Thief coming, and therefore if you don’t see them coming that is your own fault for not being aware of your surroundings. If you do it from stealth, steal unstealths you and gives you the 3.3 second revealed debuff, at which point CnD does not stealth you and you simple auto attack after steal+cnd.

The combo still takes a good time to pull off. Verses someone who doesn’t move, you’ll steal with a pre-loaded cnd and then backstab. The backstab animation is actually quite slow, plenty long enough for a dodge. So even if you didn’t see the Thief you have time to dodge if you’re any good. I know because I’ve done it, and I’m not even particularly good.

Then there’s the damages people keep spewing out. Verses actual level 80’s, I do not believe my backstab has hit over 9k before. Which is a crit, and in the back and I believe on a glassy cloth wearer. Most reports of really high damage I hear are from WvW players who haven’t got level 80 and therefore are lacking a lot in gear to survive. Any class will destroy a lowbie in WvW if they themselves are level 80.

Also, it’s not as if the Thief is the highest damage burst in the game. There’s accounts of warriors adrenaline skill on the rifle out damaging backstab, at 1500 range and not requiring the positioning to hit them in the back (a front hit backstab is weak). The rangers have some insane damage on grenade power builds, and so on. The damage isn’t unheard of across most classes (sorry Ele and Necro, but I do not believe even with your power/crit builds that you put out the damage of the other classes sadly).

Finally the other complaint if ‘omg perma stealth’.

The way it works, is the Thief uses a stealth skill which, aside from shadow refuge, lasts 3 seconds. After they unstealth, from using an attack, they are revealed for 3.3 seconds. Therefore a thief, in combat, who attacks from stealth for optimal damage/utility will not be stealthed for more than roughly 45% of the fight. And that is assuming that they can finish the fight fast. Backstab builds, believe it or not, do NOT have multiple stealth abilities. They just have CnD and the heal stealth. That’s 2, of which one has too long a cool-down to be used multiple times in a fight, and the other has too high an initiative cost to be used too much also.

The issue is the rendering bug or problem. It benefits Thieves the most as stealth buggers the rendering up more, but that is not a class imbalance. That is just a game fault. Working as intended, as said, a Thief will not stealth that much really.

Finally I’d like to point out some serious issues with the current Thief weapon sets.

Sword-dagger seems quite pointless. With flanking strike hardly ever striking properly it’s nothing more than a waste of initiative, or a desperate hope of dodging something. Whilst some of the other skills are fine, cnd, throwing the dagger and sword 2 are fine, without a proper damage skill it’s all a bit in vain. Yes you can daze, cripple and immobilize the opponent, but on one of the squishiest classes in the game it’s all rather pointless without being able to finish them. Give sword-dagger a real skill 3 please.

Aurora Glade [EU]

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Posted by: Katsumoto.9452

Katsumoto.9452

Sword-pistol. The only real reason people used it was pistol whip. It was the finisher that sword dagger could use. But now they’ve nerfed it to the point where I believe it’s 1/3 as effective as a warriors 100b. Not cool. It’s not only really good when used with haste to be honest. It needs re-buffed. Maybe not to it’s former glory but it needs improved. I love sword-pistol a lot but it’s easier to escape than 100b and does less damage.

Pistol-pistol. Truly terrible. All you do is hit 3. There really isn’t much point in anything else. The pistol ability 2 animation it too slow to gain any real benefit from it, especially for the initiative cost. Honestly the only other skill i’d use is 4 for the daze. 5 only really works in PvE and for the initiative cost is hardly worth it in PvP. This set is our worst and REALLY needs a look into.

Pistol-dagger. This is fairly good although it’s far too heavily based on a condition build, which revolves almost entirely around unload (stealth then pistol 1, causing a rapid fire and bleeds). I like that it helps make condition builds decent to some extent to be fair. I’m not really sure what the point of skill 3 is. Get right into kissing range, to dart away and shoot them for mediocre damage considering it costs 4 initiative to do. Overall a weapon set that’s ok.

Dagger-pistol. Poor frankly. The damage on this build is from the dagger, and because of that there’s really no point to use it over dagger-dagger. Getting into stealth with this is insanely expensive (ability 5 followed by 2, basically nearly all your initiative). Again pistol 5 is ok but only in PvE. Pistol 4 can be useful for the daze. The gap closer from ability 3 is kind of pointless. The delay just means you’re not quite there anyway and the initiative cost again, is too high for the lack of damage/utility. Why not just use heartseeker? Or wait for steal?

Shortbow. This is actually reasonable to be fair. Being able (although it’s costly) to inflict area weakness is nice. A jump back/cripple helps a lot, and despite how awkward to use in straight 1v1 combat shortbow 2 is, it’s a really nice skill. Shortbow is just quite nice. The only thing i’m not 100% sure on is it’s stealth ability (an immobilize shot).

Dagger-dagger. Arguably our best none-condition damage set. Arguably even our best condition damage set. As you know, heartseeker is fanastic verses people under 25% life. It’s ok at 50% too if you crit. Deathblossom is the single fastest way to stack bleeds, and it comes with an evade. And backstab is our highest damage skill, albeit a pain in the kitten to hit verses someone who actually uses dodges and such. It has the utility from the cripple also. Overall I think the set is fine as it is, however it just outclasses our other sets too much, unless of course you’re a condition thief in which case you have more options (pistol-dagger).

Aurora Glade [EU]

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

i dont think you understand that the game does not render the thief for 3 (at least) of those 3.3 seconds that they cannot restealth. you can see yourself playing the thief. your opponent cannot.

thats where the frustration enters.

so yes, please, keep writing walls of text about how a thief is counterable, how you yourself dont suck at dodging, and how thief damage is crap with most weapons. and completely miss why everyone hates thieves.

why dont you just tell everyone to drop $2k on a desktop with a state of the art graphics card and other nice things? even then the rendering issues wont be solved.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Aaron.4807

Aaron.4807

The Insanemaniac here is right. The problem is in games where it counts, namely WvW, the thief never renders for those three seconds. I know i have been killed out in the field many times, at first I had no idea what was going on, eventually I came to realize it was a perma stealthed thief taking me out in 3 seconds. That is where the frustration comes in.

Wrekks/Wrekts

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Posted by: Ponzu.4570

Ponzu.4570

i think most stuff are fine,like engineer,many underpowered kitten skills

lvl80 sylavari Engineer
Crystal Desert

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Posted by: moirweyn.9872

moirweyn.9872

Yea, the stealth mechanic in WvW is completely screwed up. I can’t tell you how many times I have been killed by nobody, speared by nobody, had nobody tie up a supply camp capping (with 30 people spamming AOE everywhere) only to find out the nobody was a thief who was constantly invisible. It’s really frustrating and needs to be fixed.

Stealth does not mean 100% super invisible can’t see me no matter what happy fun time defense. It means really hard to see.

Damage should break stealth.
DoTs should prevent stealth.

“There are two types of people in the world…and I don’t like them.”

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Posted by: Katsumoto.9452

Katsumoto.9452

‘The issue is the rendering bug or problem. It benefits Thieves the most as stealth buggers the rendering up more, but that is not a class imbalance. That is just a game fault. Working as intended, as said, a Thief will not stealth that much really.’

I think I do understand, as I spoke of it. But that doesn’t mean stealth should be nerfed. It’s a game issue, not class imbalance.

Aurora Glade [EU]

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Posted by: Jack of Tears.9458

Jack of Tears.9458

>>insaneguy said: “i dont think you understand that the game does not render the thief for 3 (at least) of those 3.3 seconds that they cannot restealth. you can see yourself playing the thief. your opponent cannot.”<<

But see, this isn’ the Thief’s fault! Any class what can use stealth benefits from this! Nerfin’ our other skills ta make up for a renderin’ problem only nerfs our class, it doesn’ solve the problem! Not ta mention, then in PvE we suffer for the PvP whiners.


I’m sorry I stepped outta yer box, don’ worry, if
ya whine enough they’ll put me right back.

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Posted by: Odaman.8359

Odaman.8359

Meh, you can stealth and then time cnd+steal so that you’re not technically doing it out of stealth so you don’t get the debuff.

I don’t care though tbh, just nerf thief spear #5 =p

Odaman 80 Mesmer
Maguuma

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Posted by: Ichishi.9613

Ichishi.9613

You gotta see it to believe it. So for people to believe how bad thieves actually are they need to see them. But they can’t. Because thieves are in stealth!

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Posted by: Sizzle Hint.1820

Sizzle Hint.1820

I agree. Backstab is not the problem it’s the combo that Jinzu etablished which needs a rework.

And of course the rendering issue in WvW…

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Posted by: Ichishi.9613

Ichishi.9613

its not the combo but the insane synergy between crit rate, crit damage, power and damage increasing traits for thief.

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Posted by: Eduardo.4675

Eduardo.4675

mr. Katsumoto
I just looged into the forum, after not posting here for quite a while (when i post i feel im throwing pearls at pigs), to say that uve just waited ur time. As you can see by the replyes, they dont even understand… most of the times they just dont watch the field,simple as that.Explaining (or,should i put it this way, teaching noobs), is worthless with this crowd…

Adapt or die. I never die.

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Posted by: Eduardo.4675

Eduardo.4675

I agree. Backstab is not the problem it’s the combo that Jinzu etablished which needs a rework.

And of course the rendering issue in WvW…

Dont talk crap. “Combo that jinzu established?” For ur info, i used this crap back when there was a trait in the trickery line that gave mug 25% more dmg… in the 27th of april, 1st beta weekend, me and a million others…

Adapt or die. I never die.

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Posted by: Sizzle Hint.1820

Sizzle Hint.1820

@Eduardo

Sry that i hurt ur ego, i doesnt matter if u have used it before or him or whatever, fact is many copied it after he made that youtube video and that’s where the whining started.

I repeat, once again i apologize that i have hurt ur ego… we know ure the mastermind when it comes to thieves… gosh.

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Posted by: Eduardo.4675

Eduardo.4675

You hurt me AND a million others… difference is, at that time this game was played by the true fans of gw (the ones who prepurchased), and the vastly majority of them werent these whiny kids of today; and backstab combo is a combo present in ALL mmo with a rogue, its their signature, in other games they even have a dash/teleport watever skill that teleports them DIRECTLY to theyr victims backs, this combo is ten thousand years old.
Knock urself out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaNRuqxqykM

This video is from the 7th of may, note the different endurance bar, to the right of the initiative bar. Team Paradigm guy, by the way, he published this build,if memorie serves me (but i may be wrong here), before the first beta weekend.

Just as a side note, the only rogue/assassin type that not had this backstab massive dmg thingie was… gw1.

Adapt or die. I never die.

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Posted by: Sizzle Hint.1820

Sizzle Hint.1820

@Eduardo

cool but it still has no importance to this discussion… absolutely zero…