Guild Wars 2

With the 1 second added to the revealed debuff, this has probably thrown all of us out of sync. Even if you didnt specifically run through the DS > WS > LS chain, you still got used to the timing in your head.

Our internal timing will come back with time. Soon, we wont even think about that extra second. So I wanted to make this thread of a list of additions we can use in to give us something to do for that one second.

So, coming out of stealth and being revealed due to landing a backstab can be followed up by:

DS > WS > LS > Scorpion Wire > CnD
- This what I used to do when I first started playing the Backstab build months ago before I took a break. Scorpion Wire is also great for interrupting their heal, pulling them to you, and setting up for another CnD > Backstab.

With Critical Haste (2 sec quickness) (DS > WS > LS) > DS > WS > LS > CnD
- With Critical Haste kicking in, it’s perfect for getting off 2x #1 chains > CnD perfectly, almost like DS > WS > LS > CnD was before the 1 second addition.

DS > WS > LS > Black Powder > Heartseeker > Backstab
- Also works perfectly, since your dont stealth until after you land with HS. This was unaffected, but now your BP > HS will perfectly sync with this.

at the moment i just do another sec of #1 chain whilst positioning myself better for the CnD Backstab…

that way i dont waste any more initiative.

Kneru.8014:

With the 1 second added to the revealed debuff, this has probably thrown all of us out of sync. Even if you didnt specifically run through the DS > WS > LS chain, you still got used to the timing in your head.

Our internal timing will come back with time. Soon, we wont even think about that extra second. So I wanted to make this thread of a list of additions we can use in to give us something to do for that one second.

So, coming out of stealth and being revealed due to landing a backstab can be followed up by:

DS > WS > LS > Scorpion Wire > CnD
- This what I used to do when I first started playing the Backstab build months ago before I took a break. Scorpion Wire is also great for interrupting their heal, pulling them to you, and setting up for another CnD > Backstab.

With Critical Haste (2 sec quickness) (DS > WS > LS) > DS > WS > LS > CnD
- With Critical Haste kicking in, it’s perfect for getting off 2x #1 chains > CnD perfectly, almost like DS > WS > LS > CnD was before the 1 second addition.

DS > WS > LS > Black Powder > Heartseeker > Backstab
- Also works perfectly, since your dont stealth until after you land with HS. This was unaffected, but now your BP > HS will perfectly sync with this.

For PvE, none of those make any sense.

iNaddict.8021:

at the moment i just do another sec of #1 chain whilst positioning myself better for the CnD Backstab…

that way i dont waste any more initiative.

Easier said then done

I can’t test it right now, but if I want to play my S/D dungeon build in the same way as before, I think the extra second is going to have to be taken up with a dodge, because the blind and daze effects on adjacent mobs have worn out even by the 3-second mark. I had very little time to re-initiate the cycle as it was.

Scootabuser.4915:

iNaddict.8021:

at the moment i just do another sec of #1 chain whilst positioning myself better for the CnD Backstab…

that way i dont waste any more initiative.

Easier said then done

Well if i can do it in.. you can too.. key is practice, CnD → BS → 4x #1 repeat.. get that ingrained in your head and you wont even need to pay attention anymore.

You don’t have to believe me, but as i said in other threads i can and will work around the extra second..

iNaddict.8021:

Scootabuser.4915:

iNaddict.8021:

at the moment i just do another sec of #1 chain whilst positioning myself better for the CnD Backstab…

that way i dont waste any more initiative.

Easier said then done

Well if i can do it in.. you can too.. key is practice, CnD -> BS -> 4x #1 repeat.. get that ingrained in your head and you wont even need to pay attention anymore.

You don’t have to believe me, but as i said in other threads i can and will work around the extra second..

I have a hard time believing adjusting timing an additional second is really as complicated as some Thief players are making it out to be.

To be perfectly honest, if the additional second to revealed has really trashed the Thief as a class for some of you guys, then maybe you weren’t as good with the class as you imagined you were.

I’m personally more of a fan of Shortbow than I am of dual daggers, the latter set being used exclusively for a SoP/SU CS trait build burst. As such, the additional second to revealed was utterly inconsequential as I’ve learned how to escape without stealth.

Harass with SB.
Identify target (usually low-hp classes or classes that aren’t usually known for effective bunker builds, i.e. Target the weak.)
Flank with Shadowstep → CnD → Steal + AS + SS → BS → Shadow Recall → WS to SB and CB the downed player as allies attempt to res.
Turns 1 downed player into 3 pretty easily and consistently.

Granted, this is all WvW-based experience.

Aervius.2016:

iNaddict.8021:

Scootabuser.4915:

iNaddict.8021:

at the moment i just do another sec of #1 chain whilst positioning myself better for the CnD Backstab…

that way i dont waste any more initiative.

Easier said then done

Well if i can do it in.. you can too.. key is practice, CnD -> BS -> 4x #1 repeat.. get that ingrained in your head and you wont even need to pay attention anymore.

You don’t have to believe me, but as i said in other threads i can and will work around the extra second..

I have a hard time believing adjusting timing an additional second is really as complicated as some Thief players are making it out to be.

To be perfectly honest, if the additional second to revealed has really trashed the Thief as a class for some of you guys, then maybe you weren’t as good with the class as you imagined you were.

I’m personally more of a fan of Shortbow than I am of dual daggers, the latter set being used exclusively for a SoP/SU CS trait build burst. As such, the additional second to revealed was utterly inconsequential as I’ve learned how to escape without stealth.

Harass with SB.
Identify target (usually low-hp classes or classes that aren’t usually known for effective bunker builds, i.e. Target the weak.)
Flank with Shadowstep -> CnD -> Steal + AS + SS -> BS -> Shadow Recall -> WS to SB and CB the downed player as allies attempt to res.
Turns 1 downed player into 3 pretty easily and consistently.

Granted, this is all WvW-based experience.

Granted that u are running full glass cannon build, no balanced build ( speaking of gear and traits) will kill anyone in single burst, neither cluster bombs will be so effective, unless thats other full glass thief with no stun breaker… or upleveled lvl 6 newbie. So you are stuck for 4 seconds which is full aa chain and 1-2 more hits before you can stealth again. With removed culling now its more then enough time for everyone including their grandma to take a bus, come to battle spot and kill you.

You don’t break the chain part way through the second time; you just run through it twice then C&D.

If you did want to break the chain, you’d want to do it after the 2nd attack (3rd hit), not the first; it’ll fail if your timing was tight on the first 4 attacks, and after 5 you might as well take your poison+weakness, as it costs you very little raw DPS at that point.

Honestly, it’s pretty braindead with a fixed rotation now. ‘Adapting’ in this case really means un-learning all the tricks you used to do and the reflex to use a skill after a single auto-rotation – the /D builds lost their flow and are a lot less flexible now, and it’s rough getting used to sitting there auto-attacking so much.

But from an optimal play perspective that’s exactly what you do.

That’s 5-6 secs of visibility….unacceptable

Karolis.4261:

Aervius.2016:

iNaddict.8021:

Scootabuser.4915:

iNaddict.8021:

at the moment i just do another sec of #1 chain whilst positioning myself better for the CnD Backstab…

that way i dont waste any more initiative.

Easier said then done

Well if i can do it in.. you can too.. key is practice, CnD -> BS -> 4x #1 repeat.. get that ingrained in your head and you wont even need to pay attention anymore.

You don’t have to believe me, but as i said in other threads i can and will work around the extra second..

I have a hard time believing adjusting timing an additional second is really as complicated as some Thief players are making it out to be.

To be perfectly honest, if the additional second to revealed has really trashed the Thief as a class for some of you guys, then maybe you weren’t as good with the class as you imagined you were.

I’m personally more of a fan of Shortbow than I am of dual daggers, the latter set being used exclusively for a SoP/SU CS trait build burst. As such, the additional second to revealed was utterly inconsequential as I’ve learned how to escape without stealth.

Harass with SB.
Identify target (usually low-hp classes or classes that aren’t usually known for effective bunker builds, i.e. Target the weak.)
Flank with Shadowstep -> CnD -> Steal + AS + SS -> BS -> Shadow Recall -> WS to SB and CB the downed player as allies attempt to res.
Turns 1 downed player into 3 pretty easily and consistently.

Granted, this is all WvW-based experience.

Granted that u are running full glass cannon build, no balanced build ( speaking of gear and traits) will kill anyone in single burst, neither cluster bombs will be so effective, unless thats other full glass thief with no stun breaker… or upleveled lvl 6 newbie. So you are stuck for 4 seconds which is full aa chain and 1-2 more hits before you can stealth again. With removed culling now its more then enough time for everyone including their grandma to take a bus, come to battle spot and kill you.

And granted, it imbalanced the rhythm of combat for balanced Thief builds. I can only assume that Anet is pigeon-holing the Thief because they aren’t totally sure what they want to do with the class.

Every successive update people complain about the Zerker burst rotation, yet not a single Thief change implimented since release has done anything to truly affect it, adversely, the Balanced builds have been suffering successive damage nerf after damage nerf and now they go so far as to alter the fastest available time-scale of balanced Thief play.

IMO, it’s a pretty clear message to me that Anet doesn’t want effective balanced Thief builds. It would seem they want hard-counterable gimmicks. While I’m with you in saying that I hope this isn’t the case, the observable track record of “changes” would indicate otherwise.

Ensign.2189:

If you did want to break the chain, you’d want to do it after the 2nd attack (3rd hit), not the first; it’ll fail if your timing was tight on the first 4 attacks, and after 5 you might as well take your poison+weakness, as it costs you very little raw DPS at that point.

http://youtu.be/wYbTFzrtOUk

Not really, waiting for 2 AA chains to finish will result in a significant loss of DPS over breaking the 2nd chain.

This is all theorycrafting and it often overlooks missed backstabs. Positioning for a perfect BS is not always possible, there are situations where the mob will turn in the very last millisecond before your backstab, making it a failed frontstab. With less BS in PvE rotations and constant ratio of missed/hit , the DPS loss may be even higher than theyorycrafting suggests.

Konrad.9587:

Not really, waiting for 2 AA chains to finish will result in a significant loss of DPS over breaking the 2nd chain.

No, actually, it doesn’t.

Breaking the chain after the first attack of the 2nd chain actually costs you damage over a full 2nd chain. This is because it isn’t a clean break after the attack, you have to either wait a few tenths of a second or interrupt the 2nd attack of the chain with the cloak. The first attack of the chain is also pretty weak; the combination of it all is that 4 attacks between cloak/stabs costs you a small amount of damage.

Breaking the chain after 5 attacks gains you a very small amount of damage (~2%-3% depending on spec and buffs). It’s slightly longer than 4s visible, but since you’re only actually losing a fraction of its execute time it turns out that it gives you a bit more damage.

Finishing the full chain, as above, costs you about 2-3% damage, but will tack on the weakness of the 3rd hit (assuming you’re 15 DA spec, which you should be now). That’s well worth the cost of the damage, especially when you also add in the saved initiative.

All numbers subject to getting more precise timing of the attack chains in question.

Konrad.9587:

With less BS in PvE rotations and constant ratio of missed/hit , the DPS loss may be even higher than theyorycrafting suggests.

If you’re missing your backstabs the differences between the choices compress, as the auto-attack terms have (proportionally) more weight. Think the 2-3% chain breaking bonus compressing to 1%.

The DPS loss from the revealed nerf is similarly less if you’re facestabbing instead of backstabbing – it’s a 6% DPS loss instead of the 12% loss assuming tight execution pre-patch.