Guild Wars 2

mini.6018:

Heizero.9183:

I am really concerned that people in this thread talk about 15-16k BS crits…. i mean seriously. You would have to be naked and traited for 0 defense while fighting a full glass cannon thief that can get 2 shotted himself.

On a squishy target i crit about 6k or 7k on my thief. I don’t usually care about threads like this since i love my Thief. But blatant lies to trash another class is pretty gross.

As a matter of fact it is not bs at all xd.Check the warrior forums for 11.5 k crits backstab on 3400 armor.There are builds allowing huge backstabs especially in wvw.Heck even s/d thieves can do 5-7k.Maybe you are not using a heavy dps focused build.

“BS” is an acronym for Backstab. Idc about the warrior forums. an 11.5k BS is possible, that is not a 16k. And that build ditches all defense, even utility skills making the Thief EXTREMELY vulnerable and more of a suicide bomber than anything. My point is saying thieves have tons of survivability, condi removal, mobility, AND can crit at that level is a lie. period. There are not enough traits in the game to make that possible.

Heizero.9183:

mini.6018:

Heizero.9183:

I am really concerned that people in this thread talk about 15-16k BS crits…. i mean seriously. You would have to be naked and traited for 0 defense while fighting a full glass cannon thief that can get 2 shotted himself.

On a squishy target i crit about 6k or 7k on my thief. I don’t usually care about threads like this since i love my Thief. But blatant lies to trash another class is pretty gross.

As a matter of fact it is not bs at all xd.Check the warrior forums for 11.5 k crits backstab on 3400 armor.There are builds allowing huge backstabs especially in wvw.Heck even s/d thieves can do 5-7k.Maybe you are not using a heavy dps focused build.

“BS” is an acronym for Backstab. Idc about the warrior forums. an 11.5k BS is possible, that is not a 16k. And that build ditches all defense, even utility skills making the Thief EXTREMELY vulnerable and more of a suicide bomber than anything. My point is saying thieves have tons of survivability, condi removal, mobility, AND can crit at that level is a lie. period. There are not enough traits in the game to make that possible.

I have a screen shot of a 20k back stab from the receiving end. Your argument is invalid.

Absolutely agree and you wanna know the best part? Anet is aiming for esport with this ROFL. I remember Assassins in gw1 being extremely OP for single target back in 08 and earlier. It took them year(s) to decrease their burst to something that makes more sense (remember Shadow Prison spikes? oh yeaaaah was fun to annoy ppl but made no sense). It took them years with an awesome gw1 team….. imagine how long will it take with this current lol team they have.

Obscure One.4357:

Heizero.9183:

mini.6018:

Heizero.9183:

I am really concerned that people in this thread talk about 15-16k BS crits…. i mean seriously. You would have to be naked and traited for 0 defense while fighting a full glass cannon thief that can get 2 shotted himself.

On a squishy target i crit about 6k or 7k on my thief. I don’t usually care about threads like this since i love my Thief. But blatant lies to trash another class is pretty gross.

As a matter of fact it is not bs at all xd.Check the warrior forums for 11.5 k crits backstab on 3400 armor.There are builds allowing huge backstabs especially in wvw.Heck even s/d thieves can do 5-7k.Maybe you are not using a heavy dps focused build.

“BS” is an acronym for Backstab. Idc about the warrior forums. an 11.5k BS is possible, that is not a 16k. And that build ditches all defense, even utility skills making the Thief EXTREMELY vulnerable and more of a suicide bomber than anything. My point is saying thieves have tons of survivability, condi removal, mobility, AND can crit at that level is a lie. period. There are not enough traits in the game to make that possible.

I have a screen shot of a 20k back stab from the receiving end. Your argument is invalid.

Blue armor or naked is invalid. And your screen is pre-nerf I bet. Because roll a thief, and try to it 20k. You’ll do maybe 5k. And 9 for a crit. Bit more maybe if you can find pure glass light armor in sPvP.

And then you’ll take a 9k hit and instantly die…

Zephyrus.9680:

Blue armor or naked is invalid. And your screen is pre-nerf I bet. Because roll a thief, and try to it 20k. You’ll do maybe 5k. And 9 for a crit. Bit more maybe if you can find pure glass light armor in sPvP.

And then you’ll take a 9k hit and instantly die…

You do know that sPvP and WvW is a totally different thing. right?
11k and above is totally possible.
Just because you can’t do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done
By the way 20k is dmg in one timestamp, meaning steal, c&D and BS+ lightning.
Due to WvW lag, most of the time it is unavoidable.
Most of the people who claim to play bababa class (other than thief ) and said they killed thief all the time has never been on the receiving end of this combo. And they always claim that people they hit are in blue gear (ROFL)

KOK.2650:

Zephyrus.9680:

Blue armor or naked is invalid. And your screen is pre-nerf I bet. Because roll a thief, and try to it 20k. You’ll do maybe 5k. And 9 for a crit. Bit more maybe if you can find pure glass light armor in sPvP.

And then you’ll take a 9k hit and instantly die…

You do know that sPvP and WvW is a totally different thing. right?
11k and above is totally possible.
Just because you can’t do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done
By the way 20k is dmg in one timestamp, meaning steal, c&D and BS+ lightning.
Due to WvW lag, most of the time it is unavoidable.
Most of the people who claim to play bababa class (other than thief ) and said they killed thief all the time has never been on the receiving end of this combo. And they always claim that people they hit are in blue gear (ROFL)

Yes and 20k backstab can’t be done period.

Btw, if you have 1k ping and no stun break you’ll take 20k from a zerker mes and alot more than 20k from a zerker war.

Zephyrus.9680:

Yes and 20k backstab can’t be done period.

Btw, if you have 1k ping and no stun break you’ll take 20k from a zerker mes and alot more than 20k from a zerker war.

You are comparing a 3/4sec BS combo that comes from nowhere with something that hit in your face for like 5-6sec and called it balance? Seriously

Shun the Non-Believers!

Go ask the thief from Violent Resolution [VR] on Magumma how they did it.

My Armor at the time was 2052.

Shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!

KOK.2650:

Zephyrus.9680:

Yes and 20k backstab can’t be done period.

Btw, if you have 1k ping and no stun break you’ll take 20k from a zerker mes and alot more than 20k from a zerker war.

You are comparing a 3/4sec BS combo that comes from nowhere with something that hit in your face for like 5-6sec and called it balance? Seriously

First off the thief does not come from nowhere. Most stealth skills have a tell. You see shadow refuge, black power, or a frickin glowing guy and you’ll know. The average BS for a glass cannon thief w/100% crit traited is around 8.3k. This combined with basilisk venom will kill very glassy players. On the other hand, a thief that uses all of the above can be one hit as well, not to mention any turret eng. will destroy him.

I’ve done backstabs for much higher than 8 k against 3k+ armor targets. So you are wrong, sorry. I also cannot be one hit, lol.

Sanduskel.1850:

I’ve done backstabs for much higher than 8 k against 3k+ armor targets. So you are wrong, sorry. I also cannot be one hit, lol.

Yeah, it’s not only possible but happens more often than not…I’m not sure whats Up with eveyone else but I get the vibe there’s a lot of L2P issues involved in this thread…

Sanduskel.1850:

Good thieves don’t need perma stealth. I welcome a reduction of stealth on my thief with open arms since I spec evade. Scrub thieves need perma stealth as a crutch to troll.

I’m waiting for the day they will nerf evade on thieves to write something like:
“Good thieves don’t need perma evade. I welcome a reduction of evasion on my thief with open arms since I spec stealth. Scrub thieves need perma evade as a crutch to troll.”
good day.

Daendur.2357:

Sanduskel.1850:

Good thieves don’t need perma stealth. I welcome a reduction of stealth on my thief with open arms since I spec evade. Scrub thieves need perma stealth as a crutch to troll.

I’m waiting for the day they will nerf evade on thieves to write something like:
“Good thieves don’t need perma evade. I welcome a reduction of evasion on my thief with open arms since I spec stealth. Scrub thieves need perma evade as a crutch to troll.”
good day.

No one hates evades, lol. Attacking a decent thief who knows when and how to evade is a fun challenge, unlike playing against the scrub perma stealth clowns. By all means, lobby for evade nerfs! Lol

Evernessince.8035:

First off the thief does not come from nowhere. Most stealth skills have a tell. You see shadow refuge, black power, or a frickin glowing guy and you’ll know. The average BS for a glass cannon thief w/100% crit traited is around 8.3k. This combined with basilisk venom will kill very glassy players. On the other hand, a thief that uses all of the above can be one hit as well, not to mention any turret eng. will destroy him.

Thief can hit the combo from 2000 feet away. So you expect us to spam screen and look all over the place when we walked from one place to another in WvW?

And your claim of one hit death from engineer? Any Screenshot or any skill that the OP engineer use?
You talk as if the turret/engineer can do 16k dmg in one hit. Please list the skill or SS so that we can tell all the engineer how awesome they are .
PS:If you are doing 8.3k with a glass build against a "normal " target (2.5k armor), you either spec wrongly, don’t have the gear for it, did not setup properly or all the above

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I know i am not the best, but when the fight is won thanks to the first attack doing 16,000 damage then it doesnt really take much.

Taking into account that you recognize that your skillness is in the average, could it be that some of the thieves you fight against are better players?
On the other hand, the fact that once a thief made you 16k is an anecdote, it is not the norm.
QQ post based in nothing.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Bloodbeast.8942:

If thief hits you for 16 k, then you should wear something else than just your underpants^^

Nice attempt at being funny or your just bad on thief….Thief can easily hit higher than that on a tanky warrior. There is a post up right now of a warrior with ~3.4k armor getting bursted for 2.3k steal, 11.2k BS, 6.5k Cnd, 3.7k heartseeker…thats 23.7k damage against a person who is built to tank…not glass not underpants TANK.

I have seen this kinda damage before on my warrior as well and the heartseeker hit higher. Thief just repeated until he got me…had a fail attempt poofed and reset, never saw him coming then BAM got the crits he needed gg.

Sanduskel.1850:

Daendur.2357:

Sanduskel.1850:

Good thieves don’t need perma stealth. I welcome a reduction of stealth on my thief with open arms since I spec evade. Scrub thieves need perma stealth as a crutch to troll.

I’m waiting for the day they will nerf evade on thieves to write something like:
“Good thieves don’t need perma evade. I welcome a reduction of evasion on my thief with open arms since I spec stealth. Scrub thieves need perma evade as a crutch to troll.”
good day.

No one hates evades, lol. Attacking a decent thief who knows when and how to evade is a fun challenge, unlike playing against the scrub perma stealth clowns. By all means, lobby for evade nerfs! Lol

When stealth will be nerfed enough, thieves will start to use evasion builds, ppl will start complaining about perma evade thieves like they are doing with stealth.

Stealth has counters. Just use them or leave the perma stealth thief alone…

Daendur.2357:

Sanduskel.1850:

Daendur.2357:

Sanduskel.1850:

Good thieves don’t need perma stealth. I welcome a reduction of stealth on my thief with open arms since I spec evade. Scrub thieves need perma stealth as a crutch to troll.

I’m waiting for the day they will nerf evade on thieves to write something like:
“Good thieves don’t need perma evade. I welcome a reduction of evasion on my thief with open arms since I spec stealth. Scrub thieves need perma evade as a crutch to troll.”
good day.

No one hates evades, lol. Attacking a decent thief who knows when and how to evade is a fun challenge, unlike playing against the scrub perma stealth clowns. By all means, lobby for evade nerfs! Lol

When stealth will be nerfed enough, thieves will start to use evasion builds, ppl will start complaining about perma evade thieves like they are doing with stealth.

Stealth has counters. Just use them or leave the perma stealth thief alone…

THIS

You can nerf everything on thieves but people will keep qqing about them becouse right now thieves are this game’s scapegoat. Every single problem is due to thieves.
Wrong trait/armor? nerf thieves! Wrong timing/positioning? nerf Thieves of course! roflmaoarenanet i will leave game!11!!1! becouse of thieves!!11!!!!1!
And if there is something i learned playing one is that most of people goes in panic fighting them.
Panic -> rage -> this kind of thread.
Maybe it’s time to chill instead of this panic, becouse reading forum all classes are underpowered and useless, but thieves….

And this is quite pathetic

It’s easy really, remove permastealth thiefs ability to join wvw and everyone is happy.

To add something useful:
I don’t care being beaten by an enemy i can see. You can figure out how to beat most enemies simply by seeing what they do, when they do.
Also think about it like that, when your often being seen and are weaker than before, you could expect some not used skills being buffed.

Haltair.3062:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I know i am not the best, but when the fight is won thanks to the first attack doing 16,000 damage then it doesnt really take much.

Taking into account that you recognize that your skillness is in the average, could it be that some of the thieves you fight against are better players?
On the other hand, the fact that once a thief made you 16k is an anecdote, it is not the norm.
QQ post based in nothing.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

I am far from terrible, i can hold my own against most IF they are seen. How can you counter a class that can just walk up to from stealth and deal 16,000 damage in a blink of an eye.

Sure Thieves will say it cant be done and that i am wearing blues and such – which isnt the case 1,701 Toughness and nearly 2,800 Armor and still 16,000 damage in the blink of an eye

Yeah that seems very balanced. As i suspected most of the people defending the stealth – thieves. Though interesting to see some that would like to see it changed.

Strange that more and more people are saying it happens often yet they are all lying then? it CAN happen and it DOES happen. It doesnt matter if its 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 it should NOT happen at all.

They should either have the high damage or stealth – Your choice. The fact they have BOTH is a joke

Stealth is still ok for thiefs, as long as its for recovering from the fight or breaking. Give them a debuff cannot attack after 30 or so seconds after going in stealth. Fine for getting away.

L2P. Thieves aren’t hard to counter. You’re just a bad player.
It is “spammable” to make it a combat element rather than purely a out-of-combat one.
To compensate, you also have the lowest innate survivability in the game tied with D/D eles.

Also spamming yet another thread about this tired topic instead for looking for a previous one (not per search function, but by OPENING YOUR EYES) should be a permabannable offense.

aspirine.6852:

Stealth is still ok for thiefs, as long as its for recovering from the fight or breaking. Give them a debuff cannot attack after 30 or so seconds after going in stealth. Fine for getting away.

Why not remove dodging and replace it with a block RNG as well, if you’re already on the road to turn this into a WoW hotkey MMO?

Daendur.2357:

Sanduskel.1850:

Daendur.2357:

Sanduskel.1850:

Good thieves don’t need perma stealth. I welcome a reduction of stealth on my thief with open arms since I spec evade. Scrub thieves need perma stealth as a crutch to troll.

I’m waiting for the day they will nerf evade on thieves to write something like:
“Good thieves don’t need perma evade. I welcome a reduction of evasion on my thief with open arms since I spec stealth. Scrub thieves need perma evade as a crutch to troll.”
good day.

No one hates evades, lol. Attacking a decent thief who knows when and how to evade is a fun challenge, unlike playing against the scrub perma stealth clowns. By all means, lobby for evade nerfs! Lol

When stealth will be nerfed enough, thieves will start to use evasion builds, ppl will start complaining about perma evade thieves like they are doing with stealth.

Stealth has counters. Just use them or leave the perma stealth thief alone…

I play high evade thief. People actually enjoy fighting me. You are wrong.

I play high stealth thief. People actually enjoy fighting me. You are wrong.

I play high stealth thief. People actually enjoy fighting me. You are wrong.

They wanna fix stealth? Add audible footsteps. If the player wants to be stealth and silent they have to toggle walk. Additionally all stuns and stun type effects (knock down, knock back, fear, etc.) should break a targets stealth.

Unless you like uncounterable effects to provide you with the game imbalance you require to be a viable player. It’s ok, we can’t all be skilled.

So where are all the posts complaining about high thief evades? Lol. You are wrong.

Shenanigans! Black powder hitting for 1.5k?!? math:

• (84 * .25 * Power) * modifiers / Toughness

lets go crazy here:

• (84 * .25 * 4000) * 4 / 2000 = 168

As for 20k BS… again the math proves it is virtually impossible (a thief with 4k power and 4 on the modifier is buffed to the gods with a perfect strike):

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 2000 = 15.5k

against 3k toughness

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 3000 = 10.3k

In these cases, IMO the combat log is flat out lying and likely clumping several hits from multiple sources into one, some chopping has been done or a bug/cheat is in effect. It is also somewhat curious that a medium health pooled player soaked up 36k damage in about 2 seconds and didn’t die.

There is this thing called the thief QQ train. Scrubs like to ride it alot. You are all wrong.

Straegen.2938:

Shenanigans! Black powder hitting for 1.5k?!? math:

• (84 * .25 * Power) * modifiers / Toughness

lets go crazy here:

• (84 * .25 * 4000) * 4 / 2000 = 168

As for 20k BS… again the math proves it is virtually impossible (a thief with 4k power and 4 on the modifier is buffed to the gods with a perfect strike):

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 2000 = 15.5k

against 3k toughness

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 3000 = 10.3k

In these cases, IMO the combat log is flat out lying and likely clumping several hits from multiple sources into one, some chopping has been done or a bug/cheat is in effect. It is also somewhat curious that a medium health pooled player soaked up 36k damage in about 2 seconds and didn’t die.

Or there is a bug with the combat mechanics allowing much larger hits.

Straegen.2938:

Shenanigans! Black powder hitting for 1.5k?!? math:

• (84 * .25 * Power) * modifiers / Toughness

lets go crazy here:

• (84 * .25 * 4000) * 4 / 2000 = 168

As for 20k BS… again the math proves it is virtually impossible (a thief with 4k power and 4 on the modifier is buffed to the gods with a perfect strike):

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 2000 = 15.5k

against 3k toughness

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 3000 = 10.3k

In these cases, IMO the combat log is flat out lying and likely clumping several hits from multiple sources into one, some chopping has been done or a bug/cheat is in effect. It is also somewhat curious that a medium health pooled player soaked up 36k damage in about 2 seconds and didn’t die.

Crit?

I wish the devs would put [Reveal] on a shout like “sic’ em”. Dare to dream.

Chopps.5047:

I wish the devs would put [Reveal] on a shout like “sic’ em”. Dare to dream.

All they have to do is implement revealed debuff on every stealth use. That would get rid of chain stealth/perma stealth and solve most of the problem. They had it in a patch a while ago but didn’t have the guts to bring it live.

Madora.9340:

Crit?

Crit lives in the modifier portion. Some examples of potential Thief modifiers:

• 150% base crit
• 100% crit multiplier
• 5% Dagger Training
• 10% Exposed Weakness
• 10% First Strikes
• 7% Side Strike
• 20% Executioner
• 10% Fluid Strikes
• 10% Lead Attacks
• 5% Sigil of Force
• 5% Flanking Strikes

In reality a 300% modifier is pretty much top of the line. Even at 300% the thief has to give up either power or survivability. I did a 400% to illustrate just how ridiculous a 20k BS would be.

((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * (4 modifier)) / 3000 = 10.3k

Sanduskel.1850:

Or there is a bug with the combat mechanics allowing much larger hits.

I listed bug in my original post as a possibility.

Stealth was just poorly designed and even worse in implementation. The unfortunate truth is that it won’t be changed because it is far too late for that to occur. Any significant change to it now will drive all the thieves away from the game and ANET can hardly afford that.

Op

Well Done!

Let the Truth fight on…..

Seriously, how long will this uprising against a broken mechanic thief will continue?

How much longer will we have to wait for Arena.net to finally give up defending Favoritism?

-Also the mistake in all of this;

With 13+ months, the cry for InJustice and Favoritism by this class mechanic, will cause more players to continue leaving the beautiful and wonderful world you have created and and will continue causing extreme chaos among your world at such rate that will only leave you in despair.

Enough! is Enough!

Arena.net

As the saying goes, ’choose the side of righteous and and will win many souls".

The Time Is Now!

Arena.net

Make it happen!.

covenn.7165:

Stealth was just poorly designed and even worse in implementation. The unfortunate truth is that it won’t be changed because it is far too late for that to occur. Any significant change to it now will drive all the thieves away from the game and ANET can hardly afford that.

Not sure why you say that. ANet keeps making bullkitten changes to WvW and doesn’t seem to care whether players stay or leave. In fact, given the incredible limitations of the GW2 game engine, I’ve always suspected that ANet would just as soon see a bunch of us leave so that the remaining players wouldn’t have to complain about lag.

I consider myself as middle of the pack in regards to WvW skill…yet I loose most encounters with thieves.

ANET, if you can’t rebalance the thieves, then give every class an effective counter to stealth.

It won’t be fixed, atleast until they change their priorities for balance.
The issue here, is that 90% or more of balance is done for their (failed) ezport conquest spvp, since there while you are stealth you lose the point, stealth is not that good.
But in WvW stealth is way way way too good (and yea, i played thief in spvp and in wvw, and being able to run from any fight, avoid zergs and hide in the shadows and strike the weak is way way too good to be balanced with other classes).

Straegen.2938:

Madora.9340:

Crit?

Crit lives in the modifier portion. Some examples of potential Thief modifiers:

• 150% base crit
• 100% crit multiplier
• 5% Dagger Training
• 10% Exposed Weakness
• 10% First Strikes
• 7% Side Strike
• 20% Executioner
• 10% Fluid Strikes
• 10% Lead Attacks
• 5% Sigil of Force
• 5% Flanking Strikes

In reality a 300% modifier is pretty much top of the line. Even at 300% the thief has to give up either power or survivability. I did a 400% to illustrate just how ridiculous a 20k BS would be.

((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * (4 modifier)) / 3000 = 10.3k

Sanduskel.1850:

Or there is a bug with the combat mechanics allowing much larger hits.

I listed bug in my original post as a possibility.

Hrm, I’m thinking that some numbers are multiplied differently than others. Like, if you multiply the original damage by the multipliers rather than adding the multipliers together, I think the number comes out to be different.

I am still surprised these posts are being made.

In duels, thieves are below mediocre with the current WvW settings. In open world solo, the only players who need to worry about an unbalanced thief fight are group oriented builds, up levels, wounded players and players who need to work on their skills.

In solo fights and duels: warriors and condi-bunkers currently dominate. No decent roamer/duel build that isn’t on cool down/wounded should be on the wrong side of a thief fight going in.

Straegen.2938:

I am still surprised these posts are being made.

In duels, thieves are below mediocre with the current WvW settings. In open world solo, the only players who need to worry about an unbalanced thief fight are group oriented builds, up levels, wounded players and players who need to work on their skills.

In solo fights and duels: warriors and condi-bunkers currently dominate. No decent roamer/duel build that isn’t on cool down/wounded should be on the wrong side of a thief fight going in.

Duels and roaming are 2 diff. things. In a duel no one is going to just run away. Also most players wouldn’t run a duel spec to roam.

Straegen.2938:

Shenanigans! Black powder hitting for 1.5k?!? math:

• (84 * .25 * Power) * modifiers / Toughness

lets go crazy here:

• (84 * .25 * 4000) * 4 / 2000 = 168

As for 20k BS… again the math proves it is virtually impossible (a thief with 4k power and 4 on the modifier is buffed to the gods with a perfect strike):

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 2000 = 15.5k

against 3k toughness

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 3000 = 10.3k

In these cases, IMO the combat log is flat out lying and likely clumping several hits from multiple sources into one, some chopping has been done or a bug/cheat is in effect. It is also somewhat curious that a medium health pooled player soaked up 36k damage in about 2 seconds and didn’t die.

Oh no I definitely died. The black powder was just to ensure my downed state would be irrelevant…and as an Engineer it pretty much is anyhow.

What’s really going to bake your noodle is I was running (and almost always do) Protective Shield, an Engineer trait that automatically procs protection on crit. Now I can’t provide any proof that it triggered, but on that premise it’s even harder to produce the math to support the existing damage numbers +33% if what my combat log is showing is actually damage under Protection.

Perhaps there’s a bug I’m not aware of that inverts the protection boon and instead makes one take 33% more damage instead of reducing it by 33%; literally the only thing I could think of when I reported the player and then reported it as a bug.

That said I still have evidence of a 20k backstab even if it’s the unicorn of backstabs, it exists, and therefore arguments to the contrary of it’s existence are simply wrong. Thieves are doing this, and I’m just one guy who took a screenshot of it.

Straegen.2938:

Madora.9340:

Crit?

Crit lives in the modifier portion. Some examples of potential Thief modifiers:

• 150% base crit
• 100% crit multiplier
• 5% Dagger Training
• 10% Exposed Weakness
• 10% First Strikes
• 7% Side Strike
• 20% Executioner
• 10% Fluid Strikes
• 10% Lead Attacks
• 5% Sigil of Force
• 5% Flanking Strikes

In reality a 300% modifier is pretty much top of the line. Even at 300% the thief has to give up either power or survivability. I did a 400% to illustrate just how ridiculous a 20k BS would be.

((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * (4 modifier)) / 3000 = 10.3k

Sanduskel.1850:

Or there is a bug with the combat mechanics allowing much larger hits.

I listed bug in my original post as a possibility.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlYmKO3cy7E+5ExODfqTfGgtraKoZLB-j0CBYfJj8DhgAkoGjEBiKAI5pIasFXFRjVXDT5iIq2auIa1SBMxyI-w

So I got about 2893 power, which then gives me 3922 attack, if he was coming off of a kill, he has an additional 200 power. So here we go;

(806*1.05 (Dagger mastery)1.60 (attack multiplier)4122 (attack) * 2.53 (crit multiplier))/3000 = 4707.1

Well, that didn’t work, and every other way I manage to re-write the formula, I get the same result. I think something is squared in the formula. Or maybe, the double damage is multiplied at the end, I don’t know.

Obscure One.4357:

That said I still have evidence of a 20k backstab even if it’s the unicorn of backstabs, it exists, and therefore arguments to the contrary of it’s existence are simply wrong. Thieves are doing this, and I’m just one guy who took a screenshot of it.

Not only a unicorn but seemingly impossible without some ridiculously rare bug/hack/event. If that happened to me, I would report it to ANet cause something went horribly wrong in their calcs. It almost looks like a legendary hit you only with thief skills.

I would add that this outlier is anecdotal to stealth and BS as a whole and should not be used as evidence to condemn those mechanics. If this were something that regularly happened, then it would be worth addressing but I have never seen anything like it in near 2k hours of WvW play.

Straegen.2938:

Shenanigans! Black powder hitting for 1.5k?!? math:

• (84 * .25 * Power) * modifiers / Toughness

lets go crazy here:

• (84 * .25 * 4000) * 4 / 2000 = 168

As for 20k BS… again the math proves it is virtually impossible (a thief with 4k power and 4 on the modifier is buffed to the gods with a perfect strike):

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 2000 = 15.5k

against 3k toughness

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 3000 = 10.3k

In these cases, IMO the combat log is flat out lying and likely clumping several hits from multiple sources into one, some chopping has been done or a bug/cheat is in effect. It is also somewhat curious that a medium health pooled player soaked up 36k damage in about 2 seconds and didn’t die.

ARE YOU MAD?! DON’T YOU KNOW THAT INTRODUCING EVIDENCE AND MATH TO THE QQ-TRAIN WILL DERAIL IT?!

How dare you attempt to shatter the frail QQ-TRAIN with hard evidence!

A combination of stealth being a poorly designed mechanic and thieves initiative allowing the same skill to be chained when it would not be possible with other classes. Sadly this likely won’t change as Anet only balances around PVP (100b warriors in PVE and perplexity runes in wvw are proof of this) -Revealed is 4s in pvp and stealth doesn’t cap points so they don’t seem to care further about the mechanic.

I think theives need more interesting aspects to the class – shadow steps and evades are both strong mechanics, but I can’t help but look at their trait line and think how lazy the design seems… Stealth needs to be toned down a bit and other aspects brought up – though the burst should remain as it is or atleast rely on more skill instead of just landing one large hit when you can’t be seen.

1) Blocking an attack procs a 1s revealed. Make timing blocks and ageis actually useful and introduce more counter play in timing.

2) Ending stealth (normally, as in runs out) procs a 1s revaled. This is to tone down CnD spam on ambient mobs, ranger pets, mesmer clones, ele/necro minions etc, as this has limited counterplay and give the illusion of perma stealth in combat. 1s isn’t gamebreaking and will enforce more focused play for both sides.

3) HS is no longer a leap finisher. This is a little too much – Anet said they don’t want people to be able to lay a field and combo it in the same weapon set. Isis knows why they allow players to spam this. It trivializes stealth and encourages bad play, which seems to explefiy half the thieves running around in wvw nowadays. Add more interesting traits relating to creating stealth and prevent spam with minimal effort.

Not a QQ post about thieves, I play the class and many of my friends play thief at high level pvp/wvw roaming. As it is, stealth is far too strong a mechanic and needs to be reconsidered, but in a way to encourage more counter play on both sides – to encourage more skilled thief play not just 521 spam. Regrettably the same could be said about many classes in the current meta (warriors I’m looking at you…), but stealth as a mechanic is far too rewarding at a low skill cap compared to other class mechanics.

^ +1 to those adjustments, I’ve actually suggested some of the same myself. I don’t agree stealth is a poorly designed mechanic though. Whether I’m roaming on ele, thief, or occasionally warrior, fighting a thief is one of the more fun encounters. Whereas a good condition necro, I might as well just lay down and die. Warrior is predictable, guardian is zzz, engineer has few good players. Mes is fun too but beats ele, at least conditions.

The problem with stealth isn’t high level play. It’s low level play where the mechanics seem to be very difficult for new or inexperienced players to deal with. Particularly if you don’t understand a theif’s (very predictable) sequences. The only guaranteed backstab should be one with basilisk venom. Every other BS that hits SHOULD be close to 50% regardless of thief skill because you can turn instantly while a thief has to move to get behind you.

All stealth is predictable at either 3 or 4 seconds (depending on traits) and CnD spam will always need to follow that timer.

Since so many thieves run such similar builds it’s possibly the first thing you learn to counter. It’s not easy, and took me months to figure out, but now if I get wrecked by a thief it’s due to the aforementioned mythical unicorn 20k backstab or they’re flat out better than me. More often than not I run into average to below average thieves and I have to apply more effort than one should have to in order to beat such unskilled play, attributed in large part to the stealth mechanics.

I’m fine with the skilled thieves beating me legitimately, but when I have to formulate an actual strategy against some Dagger Pistol smoke field blind spamming heartseeker scrub it’s tiresome. It not only devalues my skill, but is an insult to all skilled play when something so effective requires so little skill.

Thief is mechanically designed to skill spam, have unlimited access to stealth, and do extremely high single target damage, all without the player actively having to try. The only part that bothers me is the whole no-skill-required feature. I think thieves should be just as effective as they are now, but changes should make it vastly harder to do. I’m not a fan of scrub gamers, and because of that I kinda like having thieves around picking them off…but on the same token there are more scrubs playing thieves than anything else and a class that acts as GW2’s scrub screener should not harbor the bulk of them.

I’m not saying make it as hard to play as Engineer, my class has more ways to play one build than thief even has builds, but it at least needs to be as challenging as playing a full Cleric’s gear Guardian.

Obscure One.4357:

Since so many thieves run such similar builds it’s possibly the first thing you learn to counter. It’s not easy, and took me months to figure out, but now if I get wrecked by a thief it’s due to the aforementioned mythical unicorn 20k backstab or they’re flat out better than me. More often than not I run into average to below average thieves and I have to apply more effort than one should have to in order to beat such unskilled play, attributed in large part to the stealth mechanics.

I’m fine with the skilled thieves beating me legitimately, but when I have to formulate an actual strategy against some Dagger Pistol smoke field blind spamming heartseeker scrub it’s tiresome. It not only devalues my skill, but is an insult to all skilled play when something so effective requires so little skill.

Thief is mechanically designed to skill spam, have unlimited access to stealth, and do extremely high single target damage, all without the player actively having to try. The only part that bothers me is the whole no-skill-required feature. I think thieves should be just as effective as they are now, but changes should make it vastly harder to do. I’m not a fan of scrub gamers, and because of that I kinda like having thieves around picking them off…but on the same token there are more scrubs playing thieves than anything else and a class that acts as GW2’s scrub screener should not harbor the bulk of them.

I’m not saying make it as hard to play as Engineer, my class has more ways to play one build than thief even has builds, but it at least needs to be as challenging as playing a full Cleric’s gear Guardian.

Agree with you. this is why I specced low steath evade spec on my thief. I wanted a challenge. Scrubs play d/p perma stealth thieves. skilled ones play for a challenge.