Guild Wars 2

KOK.2650:

Daendur.2357:

Perma stealth thieves are far from GC and put out much less dps than other classes.
You can do your magnet pull and the rest of your combo even if thief is hidden.
If you go out glasscannon you have to accept to die.
Thieves don’t have the best mobility. Warriors do.

You can magnet pull someone you can’t click?
Oh wait, you can’t

i don’t know engi, what i know is that a lot of times they pull me out of shadow refuge.
what if you do the ability with no target ? i think it should work, as almost every other skill does.

The only way they can do that is if they started the pull before you shadow refuged. In other words it has to have a target when you start it, or it instantly goes into cd.

Daendur.2357:

Perma stealth thieves are far from GC and put out much less dps than other classes.
You can do your magnet pull and the rest of your combo even if thief is hidden.
If you go out glasscannon you have to accept to die.
Thieves don’t have the best mobility. Warriors do.

I think this pretty much sums it up really well.
I still think that thieves have it a little bit too easy to gtfo. even though to actually reset a fight at the limit you need to blow a SS+Refuge which are on a 50-60s cd

But that’s really all they have as a stealth class.

And mr nuke cola if thieves are so easy why don’t you roll one and challenge a proper thief player and let’s see who wins out of ten times.

I’ve fought many people of all classes and tbh against good players I’ve always had nice balanced fights. Thieves have it easy only against bad players. Guess you’re one of them

I do agree they have it a bit too easy to run away if the situation gets bad, everything else imho is a l2p issue. And tbh, if they blow refuge and stick around, if you keep pressure you should be able to take on them anyway

Please stay on the topic. Otherwise we’ll have to close this thread. Thank you.

Moderator.6437:

Please stay on the topic. Otherwise we’ll have to close this thread. Thank you.

Dear Moderator, you should have closed this thread long ago, since it’s just a flaming thread with no meaning at all.

Oh no this got moved to the thief forum…that’ll really encourage a rational discussion on stealth mechanics…
Heads up thieves we already have:
- “your bad, learn to play”
- “thief is easy to counter.”
- “stealth isn’t broken”

And a few other equally shortsighted arguments you folks are apt to making. But I suppose you can’t tell a troll not to troll any more than you can tell an idiot not to be an idiot…

Obscure One.4357:

*

Sorry, I miss your argument.
Except the brilliant “stealth is broken”, what can you say?

Obscure One.4357:

Oh no this got moved to the thief forum…that’ll really encourage a rational discussion on stealth mechanics…
Heads up thieves we already have:
- “your bad, learn to play”
- “thief is easy to counter.”
- “stealth isn’t broken”

And a few other equally shortsighted arguments you folks are apt to making. But I suppose you can’t tell a troll not to troll any more than you can tell an idiot not to be an idiot…

Well gosh, when a blanket statement/straw man about the advice I’m going to give you is the first thing I see, that makes me want to be particularly helpful. Don’t worry, you have a few freinds in this forum. Burnfall will come along soon commending you on your brilliant insight into the Truth of OP thief mechanics and Favoritism. The mods probably move threads like this to the thief forum because they grow weary of seeing generalizations made by people who do not play the class.

Genocide.4506:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-apology-thread/first#post2885574

Weeeee!!!!! also L2P!

Haha pretty much

sounds like an l2p issue. Stealth spam in pvp is like going 4v5. Think before you post. Stealth is nothing more than a survival tactic in pvp

Obscure One.4357:

Oh no this got moved to the thief forum…that’ll really encourage a rational discussion on stealth mechanics…
Heads up thieves we already have:
- “your bad, learn to play”
- “thief is easy to counter.”
- “stealth isn’t broken”

And a few other equally shortsighted arguments you folks are apt to making. But I suppose you can’t tell a troll not to troll any more than you can tell an idiot not to be an idiot…

I know this sounds absolutely crazy, and everyone is probably going to shoot me for even thinking about it, but perhaps the reason that we tell you to L2P is that thousands of players don’t have a problem with stealth or Thieves, and being Thief players, we know how to counter our own class?

If you want real advice on how to counter stealth or a particular Thief mechanic then ask politely without complaining and you’ll get it.

Daendur.2357:

Obscure One.4357:

*

Sorry, I miss your argument.
Except the brilliant “stealth is broken”, what can you say?

Arguments of “broken” vs “not broken” are equally shortsighted. If there was no thief class, and stealth still worked exactly as it does now, no one would be making either argument.

The core mechanics of the Thief class are highly restricted, juvenile in simplicity, and severely limiting to build versatility of the class.

No thief? No more problem.

But since that’s not going to happen I suggest you folks discountinue steamtrolling every recommended balancing suggestion with the aforementioned common counter arguments. ANet will otherwise nerf the class without your opinions much in how they implemented that kittened “Revealed” debuff that no one wanted in this game except for the scrub gamers who are bad with or without it. Countering stealth should be an active ability of enemy players not a default condition of using it…

At any rate, look how many trolls I’ve already gotten who already assumed I’m here to QQ because they presume I’m just another scrub that needed to “l2p”. There can’t be any rational discussion of how thieves use stealth mechanics in this sub-forum. It’s just endless trolls and trollbait.

My only problem with stealth is in WvW, and it’s because of how easily you can permastealth, and how 1 backstab usually does enough damage to force you to waste a heal while the thief can enter stealth and do it again. They may need to put an actual cooldown on backstab, or make it so it starts lowering damage output as you stay in combat mode (such as halving the damage it does until it eventually caps out at doing 1/8 or 1/16 of the norm). Or put a cap on the max amount of stealth time you can get in WvW. Outside of WvW, stealth isn’t that big of a deal to nerf.

Obscure One.4357:

I suggest you folks discountinue steamtrolling every recommended balancing suggestion with the aforementioned common counter arguments.

Which balancing suggestions are you talking about?
The classic it’s broken nerf it, no more bs damage, every single aoe/cc/skill must break stealth and put revealed 20 seconds, -50% speed, 1 stealth per day etc etc?
Or the classic stealth is broken use another build, but the other build is broken aswell QQ?
And from who these suggestions? The classic rageguy who run with a random build who open tons of junky threads?
Becouse till now i didnt read suggestions here or in other threads, only complaints.

mrmadhaze.8706:

Obscure One.4357:

I suggest you folks discountinue steamtrolling every recommended balancing suggestion with the aforementioned common counter arguments.

Which balancing suggestions are you talking about?
The classic it’s broken nerf it, no more bs damage, every single aoe/cc/skill must break stealth and put revealed 20 seconds, -50% speed, 1 stealth per day etc etc?
Or the classic stealth is broken use another build, but the other build is broken aswell QQ?
And from who these suggestions? The classic rageguy who run with a random build who open tons of junky threads?
Becouse till now i didnt read suggestions here or in other threads, only complaints.

And all ANet sees when they skim this sub forum to get a feel for the community consensus is exactly that. A bunch of scrubs QQing and a bunch of trolls never suggesting anything other than “learn to play”. But you know what complaints on this forums contain? Ideas to fix the class, no matter how shortsighted and soaking wet with scrub tears they are. The replies to them offer nothing, and thus ANet will just make up their own mind on persisting to have a class that only has one specialty and almost non-existent versatility.

Obscure One.4357:

mrmadhaze.8706:

Obscure One.4357:

I suggest you folks discountinue steamtrolling every recommended balancing suggestion with the aforementioned common counter arguments.

Which balancing suggestions are you talking about?
The classic it’s broken nerf it, no more bs damage, every single aoe/cc/skill must break stealth and put revealed 20 seconds, -50% speed, 1 stealth per day etc etc?
Or the classic stealth is broken use another build, but the other build is broken aswell QQ?
And from who these suggestions? The classic rageguy who run with a random build who open tons of junky threads?
Becouse till now i didnt read suggestions here or in other threads, only complaints.

And all ANet sees when they skim this sub forum to get a feel for the community consensus is exactly that. A bunch of scrubs QQing and a bunch of trolls never suggesting anything other than “learn to play”. But you know what complaints on this forums contain? Ideas to fix the class, no matter how shortsighted and soaking wet with scrub tears they are. The replies to them offer nothing, and thus ANet will just make up their own mind on persisting to have a class that only has one specialty and almost non-existent versatility.

Seems to me that you are ignoring the fact that all of these suggestions to fix the class are usually A) short-sighted and biased in that they intend to break the class or poorly thought out

RyuDragnier.9476:

My only problem with stealth is in WvW, and it’s because of how easily you can permastealth, and how 1 backstab usually does enough damage to force you to waste a heal while the thief can enter stealth and do it again. They may need to put an actual cooldown on backstab, or make it so it starts lowering damage output as you stay in combat mode (such as halving the damage it does until it eventually caps out at doing 1/8 or 1/16 of the norm). Or put a cap on the max amount of stealth time you can get in WvW. Outside of WvW, stealth isn’t that big of a deal to nerf.

Crunch the numbers on your suggestion and how it stacks up to condition and passive healing metas and get back to me on if you still think it is a good idea. I’ll assume for now that you would stick with it judging by you even posting it.

Daendur.2357:

Moderator.6437:

Please stay on the topic. Otherwise we’ll have to close this thread. Thank you.

Dear Moderator, you should have closed this thread long ago, since it’s just a flaming thread with no meaning at all.

Nobody likes thieves. Not even the mods.

Asudementio.8526:

Obscure One.4357:

mrmadhaze.8706:

Obscure One.4357:

I suggest you folks discountinue steamtrolling every recommended balancing suggestion with the aforementioned common counter arguments.

Which balancing suggestions are you talking about?
The classic it’s broken nerf it, no more bs damage, every single aoe/cc/skill must break stealth and put revealed 20 seconds, -50% speed, 1 stealth per day etc etc?
Or the classic stealth is broken use another build, but the other build is broken aswell QQ?
And from who these suggestions? The classic rageguy who run with a random build who open tons of junky threads?
Becouse till now i didnt read suggestions here or in other threads, only complaints.

And all ANet sees when they skim this sub forum to get a feel for the community consensus is exactly that. A bunch of scrubs QQing and a bunch of trolls never suggesting anything other than “learn to play”. But you know what complaints on this forums contain? Ideas to fix the class, no matter how shortsighted and soaking wet with scrub tears they are. The replies to them offer nothing, and thus ANet will just make up their own mind on persisting to have a class that only has one specialty and almost non-existent versatility.

Seems to me that you are ignoring the fact that all of these suggestions to fix the class are usually A) short-sighted and biased in that they intend to break the class or poorly thought out

Seems to me that you are ignoring the fact that I said all of these suggestions are short sighted. Thanks for helping me prove my point there can be no productive discussion in this sub forum.

And for clarification something shortsighted is by default poorly thought out, no A nor B about it.

Dee Jay.2460:

Stealth does not make Thieves disappear.

Tell that to my ranger pet – thieves have this core mechanic that totally and fully puts the rangers’ core mechanic out of the game.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dee Jay.2460:

Stealth does not make Thieves disappear.

Tell that to my ranger pet – thieves have this core mechanic that totally and fully puts the rangers’ core mechanic out of the game.

You see…this is what I’m talking about.

Stealth is not a core mechanic of thieves. You remove thieves from the game and stealth is still there. You remove rangers from the game and pets aren’t in the game. See the difference?

Fundamental difference between core mechanics of thief and core mechanics of stealth. Stealth is not a core class mechanic anymore than the Burning condition is a Guardians core class mechanic.

Just run “Sic Em!” after the up coming patch and your problems will be solved…well other than the fact ANet has yet to make Rangers as viable as literally any other class outside of sPvP because they’re seemingly obsessed with halfassing class mechanics.

Obscure One.4357:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dee Jay.2460:

Stealth does not make Thieves disappear.

Tell that to my ranger pet – thieves have this core mechanic that totally and fully puts the rangers’ core mechanic out of the game.

You see…this is what I’m talking about.

Stealth is not a core mechanic of thieves. You remove thieves from the game and stealth is still there. You remove rangers from the game and pets aren’t in the game. See the difference?

Fundamental difference between core mechanics of thief and core mechanics of stealth. Stealth is not a core class mechanic anymore than the Burning condition is a Guardians core class mechanic.

Just run “Sic Em!” after the up coming patch and your problems will be solved…well other than the fact ANet has yet to make Rangers as viable as literally any other class outside of sPvP because they’re seemingly obsessed with halfassing class mechanics.

Stealth attacks are a unique mechanic EXCLUSIVE to thieves. no other classes attacks change when in stealth, despite half the classes in game having stealth access. In addition we have an entire traitline dedicated to stealth. So yeah I’d say stealth is pretty built in to thief CORE design

Daendur.2357:

KOK.2650:

Daendur.2357:

Perma stealth thieves are far from GC and put out much less dps than other classes.
You can do your magnet pull and the rest of your combo even if thief is hidden.
If you go out glasscannon you have to accept to die.
Thieves don’t have the best mobility. Warriors do.

You can magnet pull someone you can’t click?
Oh wait, you can’t

i don’t know engi, what i know is that a lot of times they pull me out of shadow refuge.
what if you do the ability with no target ? i think it should work, as almost every other skill does.

Magnet has a 2 second channel cast time so it will still pull if you start to cast it before they SR. The Eng OH shield can also push thieves out of SR.

Eng has SO many awesome tools that are just about perfect for killing thieves.

Zacchary.6183:

Daendur.2357:

Moderator.6437:

Please stay on the topic. Otherwise we’ll have to close this thread. Thank you.

Dear Moderator, you should have closed this thread long ago, since it’s just a flaming thread with no meaning at all.

Nobody likes thieves. Not even the mods.

Lol-ed. It really should have been closed a while ago. Woke up this morning and saw it got moved into the thief class section from WvW (iirc). Kitten hilarious.

Shemsu.8721:

Obscure One.4357:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dee Jay.2460:

Stealth does not make Thieves disappear.

Tell that to my ranger pet – thieves have this core mechanic that totally and fully puts the rangers’ core mechanic out of the game.

You see…this is what I’m talking about.

Stealth is not a core mechanic of thieves. You remove thieves from the game and stealth is still there. You remove rangers from the game and pets aren’t in the game. See the difference?

Fundamental difference between core mechanics of thief and core mechanics of stealth. Stealth is not a core class mechanic anymore than the Burning condition is a Guardians core class mechanic.

Just run “Sic Em!” after the up coming patch and your problems will be solved…well other than the fact ANet has yet to make Rangers as viable as literally any other class outside of sPvP because they’re seemingly obsessed with halfassing class mechanics.

Stealth attacks are a unique mechanic EXCLUSIVE to thieves. no other classes attacks change when in stealth, despite half the classes in game having stealth access. In addition we have an entire traitline dedicated to stealth. So yeah I’d say stealth is pretty built in to thief CORE design

Unique mechanics built into the class that’re exclusive to the class are exactly the thing we should be talking about. If you notice, we are in compete agreement on the subject. Stealth is not a mechanic of thieves, thieves use stealth more frequently than every other class, they have mechanics that rely on it, but it’s not their core mechanic. My Engineer can’t use Stealth Attacks, nor has the ability to trait to remove conditions or heal in stealth just as a thief can’t use tool belt skills or trait to be immune to conditions below 25% hp. Core mechanics of stealth are being targeted far too often when it’s not, has not, and likely will continue not to be the issue.

Thief core mechanics revolve around stealth, not vice versa. You fix the thief you fix the problem. Again, if thieves just magically disappear from the game Stealth mechanics will not magically disappear as well. The class needs major work and everyone is pointing at something that isn’t the problem.

Obscure One.4357:

Asudementio.8526:

Obscure One.4357:

mrmadhaze.8706:

Obscure One.4357:

I suggest you folks discountinue steamtrolling every recommended balancing suggestion with the aforementioned common counter arguments.

Which balancing suggestions are you talking about?
The classic it’s broken nerf it, no more bs damage, every single aoe/cc/skill must break stealth and put revealed 20 seconds, -50% speed, 1 stealth per day etc etc?
Or the classic stealth is broken use another build, but the other build is broken aswell QQ?
And from who these suggestions? The classic rageguy who run with a random build who open tons of junky threads?
Becouse till now i didnt read suggestions here or in other threads, only complaints.

And all ANet sees when they skim this sub forum to get a feel for the community consensus is exactly that. A bunch of scrubs QQing and a bunch of trolls never suggesting anything other than “learn to play”. But you know what complaints on this forums contain? Ideas to fix the class, no matter how shortsighted and soaking wet with scrub tears they are. The replies to them offer nothing, and thus ANet will just make up their own mind on persisting to have a class that only has one specialty and almost non-existent versatility.

Seems to me that you are ignoring the fact that all of these suggestions to fix the class are usually A) short-sighted and biased in that they intend to break the class or poorly thought out

Seems to me that you are ignoring the fact that I said all of these suggestions are short sighted. Thanks for helping me prove my point there can be no productive discussion in this sub forum.

And for clarification something shortsighted is by default poorly thought out, no A nor B about it.

The irony of how you’re acting.

i misunderstood your post my apologies- the wording wasn’t as clear as it was to me when you emphasized your point.

secondly i apologize for being unclear myself. What i intended to say was that the ideas to “fix” the class are either a) biased and thus flawed or b) poorly planned and unworkable in their presented state and to this end they shouldn’t even be considered as ideas. Ideas on how to fix anything with a mmo class require forethought and finesse.

Obviously what i wrote didn’t convey that well enough.

Btw, check your attitude- it errs on the side of being illegitimate for any discussion.

Come back to eat nutella (to the one who start this post).

Obscure One.4357:

Shemsu.8721:

Obscure One.4357:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dee Jay.2460:

Stealth does not make Thieves disappear.

Tell that to my ranger pet – thieves have this core mechanic that totally and fully puts the rangers’ core mechanic out of the game.

You see…this is what I’m talking about.

Stealth is not a core mechanic of thieves. You remove thieves from the game and stealth is still there. You remove rangers from the game and pets aren’t in the game. See the difference?

Fundamental difference between core mechanics of thief and core mechanics of stealth. Stealth is not a core class mechanic anymore than the Burning condition is a Guardians core class mechanic.

Just run “Sic Em!” after the up coming patch and your problems will be solved…well other than the fact ANet has yet to make Rangers as viable as literally any other class outside of sPvP because they’re seemingly obsessed with halfassing class mechanics.

Stealth attacks are a unique mechanic EXCLUSIVE to thieves. no other classes attacks change when in stealth, despite half the classes in game having stealth access. In addition we have an entire traitline dedicated to stealth. So yeah I’d say stealth is pretty built in to thief CORE design

Unique mechanics built into the class that’re exclusive to the class are exactly the thing we should be talking about. If you notice, we are in compete agreement on the subject. Stealth is not a mechanic of thieves, thieves use stealth more frequently than every other class, they have mechanics that rely on it, but it’s not their core mechanic. My Engineer can’t use Stealth Attacks, nor has the ability to trait to remove conditions or heal in stealth just as a thief can’t use tool belt skills or trait to be immune to conditions below 25% hp. Core mechanics of stealth are being targeted far too often when it’s not, has not, and likely will continue not to be the issue.

Thief core mechanics revolve around stealth, not vice versa. You fix the thief you fix the problem. Again, if thieves just magically disappear from the game Stealth mechanics will not magically disappear as well. The class needs major work and everyone is pointing at something that isn’t the problem.

Obscure is correct stealth is not broken, but I disagree on it not being a mechanic of the thief. Almost all thief builds rely on stealth to allow any form of damage mitigation and viability, excluding S/d, but people are qqing about that so it will be nerfed soon. The thief class is not broken. Should they look at the trait allocation and make it slightly more structured on how you spec to have the damage and stealth both being utilised without blindly nerfing the class to ground.

style.6173:

Unfortunately, thieves are pretty weak at every part of the game right now except for killing noobs. It’s sad actually.

It rly is sad. Thief need buff or rework. And when i say buf it does not mean dmg buff. Some ppl who are crying about thief they didnt even try to play the class. ITS hard to play class.. yes, press button is easy.. but hide does not mean you will survive. Engi, warrior, elementalist can kill thief in few seconds does not matter if he is hidden or not. So please, if you wanna complain about op thieves.. make one lvl 1 and go pvp and try it. Ppl always die because they did some mistake. I die too, but only because i do not practise so much as other good players. To play any class and win 1v1 take a skill or you win because oponent is newbie. And if invisibility is op in terms you cant kill the hidden ……so you cry because he is not playing as a man? Its l2p issue.

And on the note of taking stealth out of the game, thieves are not made to be warriors we do not take damage they have to evade/ stealth and stay mobile, this is why thieve have best mobility and best utility of stealth we die extremely easily. My mediocre guardian and my mesmer destroy most thieves that are noobs or good players. against skilled players I normally die and die hard. When I fight engi or guard/ war I am hard pressed to constantly evade/ stealth otherwise I am dead.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Obscure One.4357:

Shemsu.8721:

Obscure One.4357:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dee Jay.2460:

Stealth does not make Thieves disappear.

Tell that to my ranger pet – thieves have this core mechanic that totally and fully puts the rangers’ core mechanic out of the game.

You see…this is what I’m talking about.

Stealth is not a core mechanic of thieves. You remove thieves from the game and stealth is still there. You remove rangers from the game and pets aren’t in the game. See the difference?

Fundamental difference between core mechanics of thief and core mechanics of stealth. Stealth is not a core class mechanic anymore than the Burning condition is a Guardians core class mechanic.

Just run “Sic Em!” after the up coming patch and your problems will be solved…well other than the fact ANet has yet to make Rangers as viable as literally any other class outside of sPvP because they’re seemingly obsessed with halfassing class mechanics.

Stealth attacks are a unique mechanic EXCLUSIVE to thieves. no other classes attacks change when in stealth, despite half the classes in game having stealth access. In addition we have an entire traitline dedicated to stealth. So yeah I’d say stealth is pretty built in to thief CORE design

Unique mechanics built into the class that’re exclusive to the class are exactly the thing we should be talking about. If you notice, we are in compete agreement on the subject. Stealth is not a mechanic of thieves, thieves use stealth more frequently than every other class, they have mechanics that rely on it, but it’s not their core mechanic. My Engineer can’t use Stealth Attacks, nor has the ability to trait to remove conditions or heal in stealth just as a thief can’t use tool belt skills or trait to be immune to conditions below 25% hp. Core mechanics of stealth are being targeted far too often when it’s not, has not, and likely will continue not to be the issue.

Thief core mechanics revolve around stealth, not vice versa. You fix the thief you fix the problem. Again, if thieves just magically disappear from the game Stealth mechanics will not magically disappear as well. The class needs major work and everyone is pointing at something that isn’t the problem.

Obscure is correct stealth is not broken, but I disagree on it not being a mechanic of the thief. Almost all thief builds rely on stealth to allow any form of damage mitigation and viability, excluding S/d, but people are qqing about that so it will be nerfed soon. The thief class is not broken. Should they look at the trait allocation and make it slightly more structured on how you spec to have the damage and stealth both being utilised without blindly nerfing the class to ground.

You just gave me a glimmer of hope that this may become a productive discussion. Your very nearly seeing my point of view.

My Ranger can gain stealth, my Engineer can gain stealth, and Mesmers can gain stealth. These are not core mechanics of the classes just as it’s not a core mechanic of the Thief. Hell a few blasts in an ally supplied smoke field and any one can stealth. Since the Thief class leans on stealth like a crutch it’s easy to fall into the trap of seeing it as a core mechanic since outside of it build viability drops dramatically. This is the problem. The class is being criticised and balanced around a mechanic that is not unique to it (I.E. core) and that is a failure in class design.

Yes, I see exactly what you are saying, the only reason it is anywhere close to a core mechanic for thieves, is how they made most builds need it, especially after they nerfed Steal which is the thief Core mechanic, the problem I see as why thieves are as broken as they are, is from the get go people hate the mobility thieves are awarded for not being able to take any decent amount of damage, and they have high burst. People are just lazy that they have a class able to kite and mitigate damage through other means besides armor, boons, and vitality. So they dont feel like chasing and or pressuring the thief. So nerfs happen with no actual fixes, then bandaids are applied, again no fixes. Thieves adapt they lost steal so they rely on stealth, people hate that mechanic because thieves can utilise it to the extreme, nerfs happen, S/d is viable again not stealth heavy. People hate how evasive it is and nerfs happen. And a bandaid will appear further breaking the class.

So if they go to fix the class they have to look at what a thief IS how they fight. Instead of microscoping one aspect what makes up the class. Thieves arent wars/ or necros or guards they have to be mobile and have some form of stealth maybe not as extreme but thats how the class works. Stealth shouldnt be the bread and butter of a class it should be a utility

Obscure One.4357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Obscure One.4357:

Shemsu.8721:

Obscure One.4357:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dee Jay.2460:

Stealth does not make Thieves disappear.

Tell that to my ranger pet – thieves have this core mechanic that totally and fully puts the rangers’ core mechanic out of the game.

You see…this is what I’m talking about.

Stealth is not a core mechanic of thieves. You remove thieves from the game and stealth is still there. You remove rangers from the game and pets aren’t in the game. See the difference?

Fundamental difference between core mechanics of thief and core mechanics of stealth. Stealth is not a core class mechanic anymore than the Burning condition is a Guardians core class mechanic.

Just run “Sic Em!” after the up coming patch and your problems will be solved…well other than the fact ANet has yet to make Rangers as viable as literally any other class outside of sPvP because they’re seemingly obsessed with halfassing class mechanics.

Stealth attacks are a unique mechanic EXCLUSIVE to thieves. no other classes attacks change when in stealth, despite half the classes in game having stealth access. In addition we have an entire traitline dedicated to stealth. So yeah I’d say stealth is pretty built in to thief CORE design

Unique mechanics built into the class that’re exclusive to the class are exactly the thing we should be talking about. If you notice, we are in compete agreement on the subject. Stealth is not a mechanic of thieves, thieves use stealth more frequently than every other class, they have mechanics that rely on it, but it’s not their core mechanic. My Engineer can’t use Stealth Attacks, nor has the ability to trait to remove conditions or heal in stealth just as a thief can’t use tool belt skills or trait to be immune to conditions below 25% hp. Core mechanics of stealth are being targeted far too often when it’s not, has not, and likely will continue not to be the issue.

Thief core mechanics revolve around stealth, not vice versa. You fix the thief you fix the problem. Again, if thieves just magically disappear from the game Stealth mechanics will not magically disappear as well. The class needs major work and everyone is pointing at something that isn’t the problem.

Obscure is correct stealth is not broken, but I disagree on it not being a mechanic of the thief. Almost all thief builds rely on stealth to allow any form of damage mitigation and viability, excluding S/d, but people are qqing about that so it will be nerfed soon. The thief class is not broken. Should they look at the trait allocation and make it slightly more structured on how you spec to have the damage and stealth both being utilised without blindly nerfing the class to ground.

You just gave me a glimmer of hope that this may become a productive discussion. Your very nearly seeing my point of view.

My Ranger can gain stealth, my Engineer can gain stealth, and Mesmers can gain stealth. These are not core mechanics of the classes just as it’s not a core mechanic of the Thief. Hell a few blasts in an ally supplied smoke field and any one can stealth. Since the Thief class leans on stealth like a crutch it’s easy to fall into the trap of seeing it as a core mechanic since outside of it build viability drops dramatically. This is the problem. The class is being criticised and balanced around a mechanic that is not unique to it (I.E. core) and that is a failure in class design.

Then non stealth based traits and damage would need to be adjusted to take into account the loss of stealth. While its true that stealth isn’t unique to the thief, it has core mechanics based on stealth as well as entire traitline. Acrobatics needs to be buffed more than SA needs to be nerfed.

The problem with thief is if you are seen coming you are dead… Hey look its a thief SPLAT! If you remove stealth what do you get? a paper thin warrior? There is already a warrior. The thief is working for the most part as intended. It has been nerfed many times to try and get balance. I truly believe that there is a L2P issue if you cannot beat a thief. The other way to think of it is.. The thief is setup to take out single targets… The thief will not be the guy rushing the zerg and living long enough to grab the loot bags. The thief is equpped to take out the stragglers and solo/small roamers capping areas. He is setup to be effective at this role. If you want to beat it setup for it like the thief is setup to take out single targets so should you. Dont rage because the class that is good at single target kills is good at single target kills… If they are such a problem for you then change your style… They can be beat and they are not hard to beat either. You cant grab your first exotic set and rush out with your pve build and get upset when a full damage built thief takes you out. Be prepared be setup. No build is generally 1 glove fits all. Find the right glove.

real thieves don’t need permastealth. i manage to do fine without that scrub crutch.

Sanduskel.1850:

real thieves don’t need permastealth. i manage to do fine without that scrub crutch.

There are no such thing as “real Thieves” and stealth is not a “scrub crutch”.

Wether you like it or not, stealth is just as much a viable playstyle as evasion. Stop going around preaching this stupid crap about how evasive Thieves are better just because you play one.

Nice job demonstrating a lack of game mechanic comprehension. There is a world of difference. Decent thieves know that and choose the challenging path.

Sanduskel.1850:

Nice job demonstrating a lack of game mechanic comprehension. There is a world of difference. Decent thieves know that and choose the challenging path.

So how long does stealth need to last before it’s permastealth? If there’s a world of difference, night and day, exactly how long do I need to be in stealth before I’m considered a permastealth scrub?

What part of perma is difficult for you?

Sanduskel.1850:

What part of perma is difficult for you?

I’m asking you for your judgement on when stealth becomes perma since you’re so eager to attack thieves who use it, I would like a clear and concise definition. Who is a scrub? Who isn’t a scrub? What is the exact breakover point?

The only thing that is a problem is perma stealth everything else is fine the way it is.

It can be easily fixed by changing Infusions of Shadows to grant 2 ini when you ENTER stealth not when you stack it.

This would not cripple X/D builds at all and it would still allow D/P to stack stealth to some extent but get rid of the cheese perma stealth.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

The only thing that is a problem is perma stealth everything else is fine the way it is.

It can be easily fixed by changing Infusions of Shadows to grant 2 ini when you ENTER stealth not when you stack it.

This would not cripple X/D builds at all and it would still allow D/P to stack stealth to some extent but get rid of the cheese perma stealth.

Perma stealth , obtained abusing the combo, especially with the leap camera bug is totally annoying and should be fixed and toned down.
But it is just annoying, not even close to be game breaking.
Damage is fine, since to reach a good damage output you have to go deep in some trait lines and build in a specific way, giving up other things like toughness or vitality.
Thieves aren’t semi gods with 30 30 30 30 30 builds and 3k to every stat, but ppl seems to ignore it just because we have a pretty decent HoT while in stealth (with 30 points in SA).

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Getting hit for nearly 16,000 damage in a blink of an eye is simply unacceptable.

NOTHING in the game is as strong as Thief stealth and only Thief will say otherwise.

100% critical chance from stealth…really!?

Lets not forget they remove conditions, regain health, regain initiative and move faster in stealth as well…

the longest stealth a thief has is 11 seconds with Shadow Refuge… and thats only if they trait for the extra second, stay standing in an obvious circle that is there for the world to see, do not attack. Then there is the 3 second revealed debuff keeping them from going into stealth again. Other than SR, the most a thief can stay stealthed for is 4 seconds.

stealth is the ONLY means a thief has to remove conditions. We can not activate a passive trait that randomly removes them and puts them on our pets, we cannot use a ability that removes every single condition with a single ability. Thieves do not have access to abilities that turn conditions into boons and then place the conditions they did have on opponents ala Necro. saying stealth is OP because it can remove a condition is nuts… think about what other classes have for condition removal before making that lame claim ok.

Regain health: Yes, a thief can trait for regen while in stealth. Again I ask what kind of regen other classes have? A ranger can trait for a natural regen for himself and his pet… and he dont have to stop attacking to get the benefit like a thief does. Necros? Guardians? Warriors? all of the other classes have some form of regen that can be traited that does not involve stopping your offense in order to gain the benefits. A thief has to stop offense in order to gain a regen which, btw, is pretty low in comparison to other classes.

Regain Initiative: Sure, stealth if traited can regain initiative faster than normal. Initiative is a thiefs cool down. When a thief is out of init, they are out of attack… the most init a thief can have is 15… most of the attacks a thief does, other than auto attack take 3-6 initiative. Init regens normally at 1 initiative every 10 seconds. So a thief must manage their initiative wisely. Any other class simply waits for cool downs. So you are telling me that other classes can not trait for lowered cool downs? Of course they can… and whats more, they dont have to stop their attack to gain the benefit.

Move Faster in Stealth: Yes, there is a trait that allows a thief to move faster in stealth… but that isnt that they move faster than they do out of stealth…it buffs their speed while in stealth which is cut to a portion of the speed they move outside of stealth. In other words, it isnt moving them faster than normal while in stealth, its moving them faster than they would normally in stealth with the speed debuff they get for being in stealth.

Hitting for 16k damage? Really? lets do the math shall we? Back Stab, which has the highest dmg coefficient for thieves (2.4 from behind)… so lets take a thief with 3500 power (which is not easy to obtain)… so, the damage equation is something like this (Power*Weapon Dmg)/Armor of target)dmg coefficient of attack… so lets say this 3500 power thief is up against a 2000 armor target and uses an ascended dagger with max dmg range of 1030. (35001030)/2000= 1802*2.4=4324… now lets say the thief also has a Crit dmg rating of say 150%… that means their crit dmg is doing 300% more dmg than normal. so 4324*3= 12972 damage. Now, with some might or vulnerability added in, this could get to 16k. Now lets look at the reality of it. 1) if a thief has that high of a power rating, they are lacking in everything else… including crit dmg rating 2) the thief needs to use a GM spot for the 100% crit chance meaning 30 points in crit strikes.
So what would it take to get both 3500 power and 150% crit dmg. 1) 30 points in DA and CS 2) go full zerker with Ruby Orbs and runes that increased crit dmg… even so, with a skill calc i was only able to get to 120% crit dmg and no where near 3500 power. So basically in order to get this kind of damage is a near impossibility and highly unlikely. Secondly, it would require the perfect storm of situations to happen… the thief would need to go stealth, need to have the random dmg range on his weapon hit the top of the range, hit with a Backstab, and be attacking another glass cannon.

Sure, a thief can hit you for huge damage. However, look at the patches in the past… thief dmg nerfed, thief utilities nerfed, and on and on. in the upcoming october patch, thieves are the only ones getting a nerf (LS is losing 1 boon strip)… so please, dont come crying about OP of thief when you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Stealth should not be spamable, it can be abused to easily.

In my opinion the thief is the most annoying class to fight, every time the same story : attack—> stealth—> attack—> stealth—> he runs away, in 1 year of roaming a saw maybe 2 good thiefs, I think good player don’t use it anymore, or there are simply too many noobs who reroll thief for easy fights.

I hope anet will fix stealth asap, its the most broken mechanic I ever seen.

So.. say stealth was nerfed or removed.. what is your suggestion to buff them in the removal of one of their core mechanic? How would you deal with the fallout to other classes that can use stealth? Would you suggest that thieves hit harder, or gain more toughness/vit? Would mesmers get more in-combat movement? You can’t just suggest you take away/nerf something because you don’t like it and not offer compensation. That’s the same as saying I don’t like the way Sylvari look, remove them!

Now imagine a game where there was nothing about it you didn’t like, that didn’t frustrate you, that didn’t challenge you… you wouldn’t like it. You wouldn’t play it. You’d never have those moments where you get to stand over the thing that frustrates you and beat it down and yell in glee.

But whaaaatever, I don’t even play a thief.

If you substantiate your claim, besides sayingohmergerd thief stealth too Op, it must be removed, thieves already get revealed debuff, have a huge lack of vit/ tough, besides evasion the thief does not have any survivability besides Stealth, so how are thieves to get buffed/ compensated for the lack of one of the 2 main defensive utilities thieves have? Give thieves more damage? You would complain even more about how over powered they are because thieves would drop you in 2 secs. Give thieves more/ better mobility and evasiveness? You complain on how you can not hit them. So unless you can be constructive and suggest a way to equalize what you want removed, you have no room to speak .

Ok so as a ranger if you didnt have your pet to help hide behind while kiting a thief or war you would get ganked pretty easily, yes stealth isnt the core mechanic of thieves, but almost all trait lines have multiple traits that require stealth and a trait line soley dedicated to its use. And what about warriors that abuse stun and hundred blades combo? Do you know how annoying that is when you have the lowest vitality/ armor coefficients. Its pretty much instagib unless you play war, ranger, necro, mesmer or guard. So you coming in and saying stealth is to op and annoying, look af the mechanics that make a thief viable , and look at other classes all have annoying gimmicks. Should stealth be looked at? yes but out nerfed or removed ? No. If you would actually research profs. And how best to deal with them, stealth or whatever gimmick they have is easy to defend against. Take d/p thieves if you kite them and dont play their blind game you win hands down.

So instead of crying out for a nerf, look for solutions, that fix problems not just punishing players for using game mechanics. Because everytime the thief has been nerfed, we have adapted and been called out on being gimmicky in every spec yet we have only seen nerfs in the game never any real buffs.

sminkiottone.6972:

The thief forum is so immature, like baby’s who have lost theyr candys, eheh.
And of course, a thief knows better

That’s a good point, and an interesting suggestion to better balance thieves.

oh, wait….

BlaqueFye, you are telling the truth but what you are saying implies less laziness and less complaints. And you know it’s easier come here and start to cry. That’s why it’s full of this kind of useless threads and nothing else a little bit constructive.
And to be honest, how many people take care about learn something?
Yesterday i played a little guild event in wvw and there was an enemy thief.
How many people took care about cc, timing, dodge at the right time and learn the c&d animation, keep hitting while he was in shadow refuge ecc??
I can tell you. NO ONE.
But go ahead with complaints! Becouse it’s OP, nerf it nerf it!!!1!!11!!
That’s the story about thieves, man. Just rage and no rational thoughts.
Again You are true but, unluckily, people’s laziness and real balance are both bad beasts.

Sminkiottone, here is an example of a mature suggestion for balancing out a thief.

While reducing the spam ability of thieves using stealth, Anet should look towards increasing their evasiveness and mobility, or provide more or better Crowd control abilities and utilities, for the lack of defensive options the thief has access to once stealth is moved to a more utility spot instead of being the crutch rhat makes up the majority of thief builds.

Stealth is really easy to deal with. It is just as good if not worse than any other classes survival ability. Staying in stealth too long hurts teams. If anything it needs a buff