Guild Wars 2

Oh look, businesses as usual in the Thief sub-forum: QQ, Troll, QQ, Troll, QQ, Troll, and on and on.

Nothing is wrong with Stealth!

If a player perma stealth builds and gets results even if it’s 5, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, stealth, recover, repeat, it doesn’t make the player a scrub, it means the class is scrubby. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. The thief mechanics are designed to be spammed, it’s by it’s own nature a scrub system.

Stealth is fine, and actually I think it’s a little under powered with this bull$&!# Revealed debuff automatically triggering when you drop out of stealth. Countering your Stealth with your Stealth is a &$#!ing stupid mechanic that says “oh were to lazy to make stealth counters part of active skill based play so we’re going to cater to bad players”. Revealed debuffs should only occur when a thief in stealth is hit with a stun effect (fear, knockdown, blowout, etc.) which every class has. Don’t have one on your build? You’re just a loot bag with legs anyways.

The problem is the Thief has a small handful of viable builds, all of which are extremely similar, and all rely on stealth in at least small amounts (which is still more than any class other than Mesmer). That needs to change.

The only reason I learned to counter thieves is they all did the same handful of things at the exact times. I even mastered the distance and timing of steal to evade and CC them in the face. So they can stealth and get away? Good! They need to stealth and recover since plan B is get murdered by the Engineer they shouldn’t have #&@!ed with. That is a problem. The class shouldn’t be addicted to stealth like a junkie that’ll die without it’s drugs. It needs improvements in such a way that if your a skilled player the class is noticeably more effective than a scrub player. As it stands I have maybe 17 hours of experience with a thief and I can Black Powder + Heartseeker + Backstab my way to victory against folks who have played the class for thousands of hours. This is a problem.

In summary, stop pointing at stealth like it’s the bad guy, it’s a powerful ability that uses balanced mechanics except for the Revealed nonsense. Thief mechanics are the bad guy we need to be talking about fixing them.

EX:
Heartseeker spam fix? Turn it into a three skill chain, the first is a leap, the second is an evade, the third is a chill.

Black Powder abuse? Turn it into a dark field and let P/P leach health like a boss with it, put the smoke field on Blinding Powder.

Low to no stealth builds? You can use your Stealth attack for 2 seconds after using a teleport.

Unused dual wield #3 skills since no one goes without an offhand weapon? Make a thief with no off hand store up to 2 stolen skills in the #4 and #5 slots.

That’s the kinda stuff we need to be talking about.

Obscure One.4357:

Oh look, businesses as usual in the Thief sub-forum: QQ, Troll, QQ, Troll, QQ, Troll, and on and on.

Nothing is wrong with Stealth!

If a player perma stealth builds and gets results even if it’s 5, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, stealth, recover, repeat, it doesn’t make the player a scrub, it means the class is scrubby. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. The thief mechanics are designed to be spammed, it’s by it’s own nature a scrub system.

Stealth is fine, and actually I think it’s a little under powered with this bull$&!# Revealed debuff automatically triggering when you drop out of stealth. Countering your Stealth with your Stealth is a &$#!ing stupid mechanic that says “oh were to lazy to make stealth counters part of active skill based play so we’re going to cater to bad players”. Revealed debuffs should only occur when a thief in stealth is hit with a stun effect (fear, knockdown, blowout, etc.) which every class has. Don’t have one on your build? You’re just a loot bag with legs anyways.

The problem is the Thief has a small handful of viable builds, all of which are extremely similar, and all rely on stealth in at least small amounts (which is still more than any class other than Mesmer). That needs to change.

The only reason I learned to counter thieves is they all did the same handful of things at the exact times. I even mastered the distance and timing of steal to evade and CC them in the face. So they can stealth and get away? Good! They need to stealth and recover since plan B is get murdered by the Engineer they shouldn’t have #&@!ed with. That is a problem. The class shouldn’t be addicted to stealth like a junkie that’ll die without it’s drugs. It needs improvements in such a way that if your a skilled player the class is noticeably more effective than a scrub player. As it stands I have maybe 17 hours of experience with a thief and I can Black Powder + Heartseeker + Backstab my way to victory against folks who have played the class for thousands of hours. This is a problem.

In summary, stop pointing at stealth like it’s the bad guy, it’s a powerful ability that uses balanced mechanics except for the Revealed nonsense. Thief mechanics are the bad guy we need to be talking about fixing them.

EX:
Heartseeker spam fix? Turn it into a three skill chain, the first is a leap, the second is an evade, the third is a chill.

Black Powder abuse? Turn it into a dark field and let P/P leach health like a boss with it, put the smoke field on Blinding Powder.

Low to no stealth builds? You can use your Stealth attack for 2 seconds after using a teleport.

Unused dual wield #3 skills since no one goes without an offhand weapon? Make a thief with no off hand store up to 2 stolen skills in the #4 and #5 slots.

That’s the kinda stuff we need to be talking about.

This was working so couldnt go this in depth but right here is a great solution.

sminkiottone.6972:

Daendur.2357:

complainers here don’t care about balance… they just need a scapegoat for their lack of skill. so they point at the only class that has different mechanics (no cooldown, spammable skills) and surf the wave of fotm complains … first it was instagib, now stealth, tomorrow evasion.
ppl: go buy some skill and be quiet.

The thief forum is so immature, like baby’s who have lost theyr candys, eheh.
And of course, a thief knows better

It’d be great if we could have a sincere discussion about stealth but there are far too many people in your camp who don’t think about the ramifications of their suggests for the fate of stealth.

Why is that just this skill/profession is so much discussed. It cannot be because people like playing against it, there has been a major complaint against stealth afaik from the beginning. It does not fit the game it clearly outshines anything else in the game because you can see it from the topics. Everyone but thiefs hates their stealth.

aspirine.6852:

Why is that just this skill/profession is so much discussed. It cannot be because people like playing against it, there has been a major complaint against stealth afaik from the beginning. It does not fit the game it clearly outshines anything else in the game because you can see it from the topics. Everyone but thiefs hates their stealth.

is stealth spammable?, they gave the revealed debuff to mitigate that, otherwise people complain because they have to fight a class based on mobility and stealth, akathey lose sight for a few seconds then get hit from other direction, every thread about thieves being OP is either they are to evasive or stealthy, which how they are to be played is the mechanics of stealth skewed? Yes but to remove or blatantly nerf isnt an answer. People have problems with thieves because they are too lazy to properly deal with fighting them, they wish thieves were like wars andbe visible and take the beating standing still, catch a thief off guard or out of evades or stealth they die very fast they are the squishiest class in game. So how do you propose they offset this if they take away or nerf stealth? Otherwise you have no reason to post unless you can offer any suggestion, because how I see it is you are qqing because one you are lazy, or two want everything to be easy for you.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

aspirine.6852:

Why is that just this skill/profession is so much discussed. It cannot be because people like playing against it, there has been a major complaint against stealth afaik from the beginning. It does not fit the game it clearly outshines anything else in the game because you can see it from the topics. Everyone but thiefs hates their stealth.

is stealth spammable?,e how I see it is you are qqing because one you are lazy, or two want everything to be easy for you.

Is stealth spammable, ah yes when it matters it is. And I do not care if you call me lazy, fact is that this profession has the possibility to strike when noone is expecting it. And that is not the kind of fight I enjoy. Am I lazy that I enjoy fighting all other classes but the thief? Or perhaps it’s possible that there is something really wrong with stealth in this game.

See I feel the thief mechanics of stealth are skewed, they should be utility not the mechanic soul of a build. I believe the mobility of a thief is their mechanic hence why steal is the built in f1 mechanic. Wasnt calling you lazy just how I feel when people call dor ne4f with no real solution. Hell I play a thief and I hate the perma stealth thieves but I either run a mobile d/d or s/d build and I kite them.

aspirine.6852:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

aspirine.6852:

Why is that just this skill/profession is so much discussed. It cannot be because people like playing against it, there has been a major complaint against stealth afaik from the beginning. It does not fit the game it clearly outshines anything else in the game because you can see it from the topics. Everyone but thiefs hates their stealth.

is stealth spammable?,e how I see it is you are qqing because one you are lazy, or two want everything to be easy for you.

Is stealth spammable, ah yes when it matters it is. And I do not care if you call me lazy, fact is that this profession has the possibility to strike when noone is expecting it. And that is not the kind of fight I enjoy. Am I lazy that I enjoy fighting all other classes but the thief? Or perhaps it’s possible that there is something really wrong with stealth in this game.

You tell me what you think is wrong with stealth and I’ll show you it has nothing to do with Stealth and everything to do with Thieves.

Stealth is a predominantly balanced mechanic.

All this hate…

I honestly wouldn’t mind if they completely take away the Invisibility aspect of Stealth just to stop all this irrational hate toward Thief as a profession.

Maybe change its name to Shadow form (or preferably something less cheesy sounding), give it a cool Grenth-like black aura, and make it so that while it’s active mobs behave as if we’re invisible to keep its utility in PvE.

As long as they keep the rest of the mechanic the same (Stealth attacks, trait bonuses, etc), and give it some other kind of bonus to either damage, mobility, or survivability to make up for the loss of invisibility, I honestly think this could be a worthwhile overhaul. In fact, if the loss of invisibility could mean that we can actually contest points while it’s active, I’d be all for it even if we don’t get any other bonuses to make up for the loss.

With the conservative nature of ANet’s approach to balance, though, I doubt an overhaul like this could ever happen.

So I recommend all the haters out there to try out a Thief and learn how to deal with it, and see exactly why Stealth is not even considered viable in team sPvP, where all the high-level play is.

If you can’t do that, I suggest picking up another game, because Invisibility will probably be with us for quite some time. Not because it’s a great mechanic, but rather simply because ANet isn’t going to change it anytime soon.

Stealth is not broken. The way thieves can spam it is the problem, now if the look at thieves as a whole and redistribute how stealth traits are awarded and or used it would fix the problem, thieves should have stealth a utility to augment their inherent evasiveness and mobility, not be able to spam it for every situation to kill anything. Stealth as a heal great idea, for condition removal great idea. Spammable fight reset on top of those to utilities, and to increase burst dps greatly bad idea. It should augment mobility through utility, not for the core for a dps build.

Interestingly, when people ever stop whining and ask nerf thief ;DD I play thief, and i have big problem to engi, I believe that they so strong, but I’m not whining and do not ask for nerf their)

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sminkiottone, here is an example of a mature suggestion for balancing out a thief.

While reducing the spam ability of thieves using stealth, Anet should look towards increasing their evasiveness and mobility, or provide more or better Crowd control abilities and utilities, for the lack of defensive options the thief has access to once stealth is moved to a more utility spot instead of being the crutch rhat makes up the majority of thief builds.

In my opinion thief has been wrongly designed, thief ( always imho ) should be the master of positioning, a nice thing would be to deal 80% of the enemy HP with a right BS, not spamable, and the stealth should not be castable in combat, it should be a tactical class to play, and deadly, now its not ! you can only outburst noobs/not paying attention kind of player, or keep stalth/burst untill you get bored, or someone make a mistake, which is not funny to play..

Me, as a lot of others are just pointing out this lack of depth in the thief mechanic, we don’t have the solution, a lot of suggestions against thiefs are just crazy, but its not our job to balance the game, it’s the developers work, I never saw that many thread against any other class but thief, there must be a reason behind it.

Look at the recent spirit ranger “nerf”, it wasn’t a real nerf, but lots of “noobs” were too used to play a simple but effective build, that they were not able to really learn the class, or like the old iway party from GW1 ( stupid build but effective ).
I think the stealth as it is right now in wvw is similar, too easy to get away and restart the fight, with less % of success, but still.. it’s kind of broken.

Besides the the not being able to cast in combat we mostly agree. thief =mobility is good, thief being able to spam and kitten the stealth mechanic bad.

Only reason I say is allowed to be cast in combat are for the healing utilities of stealth for thieves, and condition removal. Those are a good design for the thief mechanics, being able to steal-backstab-cnd-backstab and every other exploitable perma stealth is how thieves not stealth are broken. Using stealth in combat for the supportive and healing/cond removal and slight tactical mobility is how it should be, not for a huge burst of dps

Op, you came to the wrong forum to talk about stealth balance- you say you know thieves will come screaming “L2P” but you have no idea. The thieves are are like the mob- they will stifle rational discussion and if you really upset them, worse will happen- some short research on “Columba” (known elsewhere as angry ranger) and you’ll see that it’s possible to be permabanned simply because too many people here don’t like you. Run

VS GOOD THIEF you lose or thief run. No other possibility.

This, though, the thief has to run a proper troll build as well. Also, the trolliest specs will not be able to chase that well themselves.

Yes, that Columba character was a trip!

Obscure One.4357:

Oh no this got moved to the thief forum…that’ll really encourage a rational discussion on stealth mechanics…
Heads up thieves we already have:
- “your bad, learn to play”
- “thief is easy to counter.”
- “stealth isn’t broken”

And a few other equally shortsighted arguments you folks are apt to making. But I suppose you can’t tell a troll not to troll any more than you can tell an idiot not to be an idiot…

Expecting this as well. I have no idea why it was moved here. Then again the mods on the forum seem a bit well clueless. Likely throwing it here so that Thieves can all come spam “L2P” and hope the thread dies…

The ONLY people that will consider stealth fine is a Thief (some of them dont like it) Thinking about being able to jump into stealth every 3-4seconds is fine to them, easily being able to reset a fight is fine to them.

They should have ONE or the other – How Anet thought that having the same class have such a Stealth mechanic AND the insane burst – sure you can say that other classes can as well, the difference being that they can not stealth right up behind you and hit you for like 16,000 damage with NO counter…

At least with warriors and other classes you can SEE them coming and you can prepare. How do you do that against people that RELY on such a broken mechanic and think that they are amazing because of it.

Stealth SHOULD be reduced, Revealed needs to be tweaked and increased. When they can just spam weapon skills after the noobstab opener its clear something is wrong. The class SHOULD have been the same as everyone else, remove that stupid and FAILED initiative and give weapons cool downs like every other class. That alone would be a HUGE step in fixing them, they can far to easily just reset a fight and have all there Initiative back to start again while every other class will be kitten thanks to weapon cool downs

Piogre.2164:

Op, you came to the wrong forum to talk about stealth balance- you say you know thieves will come screaming “L2P” but you have no idea. The thieves are are like the mob- they will stifle rational discussion and if you really upset them, worse will happen- some short research on “Columba” (known elsewhere as angry ranger) and you’ll see that it’s possible to be permabanned simply because too many people here don’t like you. Run

This thread was moved, i put it into the WvW forum and the stupid mods moved it here. This is EXACTLY why they moved it here – hoping that it will die out. However i refuse to allow that to happen and WvW can expect another thread soon enough.

Time for Anet to pull the finger out and fix this CLEARLY broken mechanic.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Besides the the not being able to cast in combat we mostly agree. thief =mobility is good, thief being able to spam and kitten the stealth mechanic bad.

Only reason I say is allowed to be cast in combat are for the healing utilities of stealth for thieves, and condition removal. Those are a good design for the thief mechanics, being able to steal-backstab-cnd-backstab and every other exploitable perma stealth is how thieves not stealth are broken. Using stealth in combat for the supportive and healing/cond removal and slight tactical mobility is how it should be, not for a huge burst of dps

Totally agree, it should have been a “use at right time” mechanic. Like if you are being hit nad losing alot of stealth you can stealth for 2-3 seconds and gain some range and such then you are then limited by what stealth you have left.

It should NOT be: stealth > Open attack – Stealth – Auto Spam – auto spam – stealth – auto spam – stealth

and its just repeated until the person is dead or is to strong, only for the thief to go away and reset the fight, regain all health and everything and laugh at how they now have a kitten person to fight due to the fact every other class has cool downs on weapon skills and they dont…

I wonder how many of the people calling for a stealth nerf have actually listened to what they are saying? On the one hand, they are calling stealth OP because supposedly, a thief is nigh unstoppable because of stealth and can kill with a single flick of a bugger after going into stealth… and then in the same breath they claim its OP because the thief can use it to run away if the other person they are fighting is too strong for them to beat up…. UMMM which is it all… are thieves unstoppable perma-stealth gods or can we be beat and have to rely on our stealth to get us out of sticky situations?? Last I checked, gods and mega super awesome OP demi-omnipotent megaliths dont need to run away… in fact, shouldnt it be the other classes that have to run because of the OPness of thieves due to stealth

As a thief main I would kill to be an assassin from GW1. Yes, stealth is lame, but we NEED it because that is how ANet designed us. Our survival is total crap, without stealth, not even playable. I’m talking about actual stealth builds that is, S/D is another story.

Obscure One.4357:

aspirine.6852:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

aspirine.6852:

Why is that just this skill/profession is so much discussed. It cannot be because people like playing against it, there has been a major complaint against stealth afaik from the beginning. It does not fit the game it clearly outshines anything else in the game because you can see it from the topics. Everyone but thiefs hates their stealth.

is stealth spammable?,e how I see it is you are qqing because one you are lazy, or two want everything to be easy for you.

Is stealth spammable, ah yes when it matters it is. And I do not care if you call me lazy, fact is that this profession has the possibility to strike when noone is expecting it. And that is not the kind of fight I enjoy. Am I lazy that I enjoy fighting all other classes but the thief? Or perhaps it’s possible that there is something really wrong with stealth in this game.

You tell me what you think is wrong with stealth and I’ll show you it has nothing to do with Stealth and everything to do with Thieves.

Stealth is a predominantly balanced mechanic.

If stealth is not a problem than there should be no problem removing it from the game and giving something in return. The fact is that thiefs need something in return or else the whole profession is gone. And that alone makes stealth pretty much the most powerful ability of the thief.
Give then the fast attack chains the assassin had in gw1, or something fitting.
But we all know that’s not going to happen. :/

aspirine.6852:

Obscure One.4357:

aspirine.6852:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

aspirine.6852:

Why is that just this skill/profession is so much discussed. It cannot be because people like playing against it, there has been a major complaint against stealth afaik from the beginning. It does not fit the game it clearly outshines anything else in the game because you can see it from the topics. Everyone but thiefs hates their stealth.

is stealth spammable?,e how I see it is you are qqing because one you are lazy, or two want everything to be easy for you.

Is stealth spammable, ah yes when it matters it is. And I do not care if you call me lazy, fact is that this profession has the possibility to strike when noone is expecting it. And that is not the kind of fight I enjoy. Am I lazy that I enjoy fighting all other classes but the thief? Or perhaps it’s possible that there is something really wrong with stealth in this game.

You tell me what you think is wrong with stealth and I’ll show you it has nothing to do with Stealth and everything to do with Thieves.

Stealth is a predominantly balanced mechanic.

If stealth is not a problem than there should be no problem removing it from the game and giving something in return. The fact is that thiefs need something in return or else the whole profession is gone. And that alone makes stealth pretty much the most powerful ability of the thief.
Give then the fast attack chains the assassin had in gw1, or something fitting.
But we all know that’s not going to happen. :/

Aspirine, stealth is work as intended, stealth is not broken, what is broken is how thieves can over utilize it by spamming it, instead of using it as the utility for tactical mobility and health regen that it was designed for through thief traits and mechanics. Thieves are not the only class that use stealth. Hell I use stealth alot more on my sword torch mesmer in WvW than on my thief. I play S/d dont really need to stealth all that much unless I fail at or cant avoid a 100 blades from a war. So before you yell for something being OP look into how it fits into the game, and how it should have been utilized properly.

They could just make Revealed last for 4 seconds in WvW like in sPvP so thieves have to be more commited to the fight after they engage.

but WvW is PvE soooooo~

Stealth is a poorly designed mechanic that shouldn’t be in the game in the first place.

Spiuk.8421:

Stealth is a poorly designed mechanic that shouldn’t be in the game in the first place.

Explain how it is poorly designed? Examples , proof, anything to substantiate your claim. You do not have any do you? You can not just say something with out backing it up, that is the same as saying, warriors being able to stun you then use 100 blades is too overpowered they should take it out.

zencow.3651:

They could just make Revealed last for 4 seconds in WvW like in sPvP so thieves have to be more commited to the fight after they engage.

but WvW is PvE soooooo~

They did this and it lasted for a month before they reverted it. It hit balanced thieves way harder than burst thieves because it was tantamount to reducing burst output/control/defense the thief had by 33%. This affected spvp less where burst wasn’t as high so the thief wouldn’t be killed as fast, but on wvw that extra second made thieves easy targets. It also made the class feel extremely clunky due to revealed ending halfway through a second auto chain rather than fitting neatly into 1.

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

Stealth is not what is poorly designed, the traits that augment stealth, and how much access they have to it is what is poorly designed there is a difference between the two, other classes besides thieves use stealth, ex. Mesmers. If you screw with the stealth mechanic you will not only affect thieves but all classes that use stealth. The problem in the design in thieves and how the have access to it.

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play than evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

p.s cnd isn’t unreliable, lol

Too bad Thieves aren’t like GW1 Assassins and can spam block like guardians/better than guardians instead of stealth.

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

It is easier actually, because Cloak and Dagger is extremely unreliable and the penalty for messing it up on miss/block is death. Not sure why people call it OP.

It’s not very useful beyond spvp though.

Ruggan.4102:

I wonder how many of the people calling for a stealth nerf have actually listened to what they are saying? On the one hand, they are calling stealth OP because supposedly, a thief is nigh unstoppable because of stealth and can kill with a single flick of a bugger after going into stealth… and then in the same breath they claim its OP because the thief can use it to run away if the other person they are fighting is too strong for them to beat up…. UMMM which is it all… are thieves unstoppable perma-stealth gods or can we be beat and have to rely on our stealth to get us out of sticky situations?? Last I checked, gods and mega super awesome OP demi-omnipotent megaliths dont need to run away… in fact, shouldnt it be the other classes that have to run because of the OPness of thieves due to stealth

Its BOTH.

Far to strong when going offensive with it and far to strong when going defensive with it, Name another mechanic that allows such gameplay?

You stealth up to someone who can not prepare due to the fact that stealth was spammed to get to them. You bash buttons hoping they will die (normally BS and then HS, HS, HS, SH….) and then either stealth and run because they some how managed to survive and put you on defense

That very moment you use the SAME mechanic that you used to GET to them in stealth to get away from the which can cure conditions, regain health, regain initiative (maybe not all of them but some at the very least) now you have full initiative and the other person is stuck with cool downs that they likely had to burn to survive your first attack

Now you can go back in knowing that they had to use so many defensive cool downs that it should be an easier fight and it will just be rinse and repeat until you kill the person or they managed to chain stun/interrupt you to get you down.

You REALLY think that sort of mechanic is okay in this game!?

Stealth from the start should have been a mechanic linked to a FEW select skills so that it could be used as a “right time” sort of thing. NOT one that you can spam before combat, not one that you can use every 3 seconds in combat and not one that you can spam to escape.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ruggan.4102:

I wonder how many of the people calling for a stealth nerf have actually listened to what they are saying? On the one hand, they are calling stealth OP because supposedly, a thief is nigh unstoppable because of stealth and can kill with a single flick of a bugger after going into stealth… and then in the same breath they claim its OP because the thief can use it to run away if the other person they are fighting is too strong for them to beat up…. UMMM which is it all… are thieves unstoppable perma-stealth gods or can we be beat and have to rely on our stealth to get us out of sticky situations?? Last I checked, gods and mega super awesome OP demi-omnipotent megaliths dont need to run away… in fact, shouldnt it be the other classes that have to run because of the OPness of thieves due to stealth

Its BOTH.

Far to strong when going offensive with it and far to strong when going defensive with it, Name another mechanic that allows such gameplay?

You stealth up to someone who can not prepare due to the fact that stealth was spammed to get to them. You bash buttons hoping they will die (normally BS and then HS, HS, HS, SH….) and then either stealth and run because they some how managed to survive and put you on defense

That very moment you use the SAME mechanic that you used to GET to them in stealth to get away from the which can cure conditions, regain health, regain initiative (maybe not all of them but some at the very least) now you have full initiative and the other person is stuck with cool downs that they likely had to burn to survive your first attack

Now you can go back in knowing that they had to use so many defensive cool downs that it should be an easier fight and it will just be rinse and repeat until you kill the person or they managed to chain stun/interrupt you to get you down.

You REALLY think that sort of mechanic is okay in this game!?

Stealth from the start should have been a mechanic linked to a FEW select skills so that it could be used as a “right time” sort of thing. NOT one that you can spam before combat, not one that you can use every 3 seconds in combat and not one that you can spam to escape.

Except that as a burst build which it seems you’re referring to you’ve wasted all your initiative with the hs spam (ineffective against most experienced players) so you either use blinding powder or shadow refuge to leave. Blinding powder will get you 3(4) seconds of stealth while SR will give your opponent 4 seconds to melt you inside of it or knock you out of it. You probably are going to have to burn shadowstep the utility to get some distance in between you and the person now trying to kill you meaning that you’ve just blown 2 cooldowns on 50-60 second times. It seems you’re in the same boat as the person you tried to attack.

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

Really? Honest and decent thieves admit as much? Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses. In fact it’s much harder to take down a boon bunker using D/P than S/D. You might actually see honest and decent thieves running around with both sets to make up for what the other is lacking. Everyone thinks that their class/build takes more skill to use. Warriors can wreck perma-stealth builds now by equipping berserker stance. BTW, I run around with S/D as my build because of the shortcomings of D/P. That would be the reason I linked the definition of scrub to you because you seem to think it’s just easy mode, but it’s pretty easily countered by skilled players. S/D is overall the stronger set, but keep telling yourself that you are better because you use evasion instead of stealth. Why don’t you try using both at the same time and see which one you end up relying on more.

Honestly?

I was disappointed with stealth when they announced how it would work.

I played DAoC for years and years, when I heard that Anet liked it I was hoping for thief to follow along the lines of the shadowblade/assassin/inflitrator.

Then I learned about the skill bar and I went “SWEET COOKIES!, They could have a skill bar that changes when you’re stealthed to some stealth only skills like setting traps and some sort of attack”

I was sad when stealth wasn’t a perm toggle like DAoC that just made you run fairly slow and could only be entered ooc, so you have to plan your strike then you’re in for a fight and have to rely on dodge, with 1 maybe 2 insta stealth skills if it hits then fan.

Then again i was also sad thief didn’t get rifle as a weapon selection

much exaggeration in this thread
stealth is not broken, not poorly designed. the problem is 1 trait…infusion of shadow…give it a internal cd of 3sec and evrything will be good.

Domey.9804:

much exaggeration in this thread
stealth is not broken, not poorly designed. the problem is 1 trait…infusion of shadow…give it a internal cd of 3sec and evrything will be good.

This is probably the best way to alleviate the complaints, or make it so it can’t trigger if you have the stealth buff. I’m not sure which would be easier/more dependable to code.

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play than evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

p.s cnd isn’t unreliable, lol

I’ve played a S/D build since betas. I’ve always loved the aesthetics, and I’ve always thought it was fun. I used to get mocked for using it, because after the changes to offhand dagger, it was borderline kittened. In that day and age, it was difficult to play. I was proud of myself for being competent with it.

In today’s meta, that isn’t the case anymore. S/D is popular because it’s much harder to counter than Backstab burst, and it’s lower risk.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

Really? Honest and decent thieves admit as much? Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses. In fact it’s much harder to take down a boon bunker using D/P than S/D. You might actually see honest and decent thieves running around with both sets to make up for what the other is lacking. Everyone thinks that their class/build takes more skill to use. Warriors can wreck perma-stealth builds now by equipping berserker stance. BTW, I run around with S/D as my build because of the shortcomings of D/P. That would be the reason I linked the definition of scrub to you because you seem to think it’s just easy mode, but it’s pretty easily countered by skilled players. S/D is overall the stronger set, but keep telling yourself that you are better because you use evasion instead of stealth. Why don’t you try using both at the same time and see which one you end up relying on more.

it’s obviously easier. so many more thieves use the permastealth and that’s the spec that kitten es most players off. it’s very clear which is the scrub easy mode spec. why else would this spec be played by the majority of thieves?

It’s very frustrating that most thieves pick this scrub easymode spec, because it ruins the reputation of all people playing thieves. Many players hate me simply because I play a thief, but their rage stems from the exploitation of perma stealth in wvw.

Tap.9430:

Honestly?

I was disappointed with stealth when they announced how it would work.

I played DAoC for years and years, when I heard that Anet liked it I was hoping for thief to follow along the lines of the shadowblade/assassin/inflitrator.

Then I learned about the skill bar and I went “SWEET COOKIES!, They could have a skill bar that changes when you’re stealthed to some stealth only skills like setting traps and some sort of attack”

I was sad when stealth wasn’t a perm toggle like DAoC that just made you run fairly slow and could only be entered ooc, so you have to plan your strike then you’re in for a fight and have to rely on dodge, with 1 maybe 2 insta stealth skills if it hits then fan.

Then again i was also sad thief didn’t get rifle as a weapon selection

bingo. daoc stealth required much higher play skill than perma stealth here.

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

Really? Honest and decent thieves admit as much? Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses. In fact it’s much harder to take down a boon bunker using D/P than S/D. You might actually see honest and decent thieves running around with both sets to make up for what the other is lacking. Everyone thinks that their class/build takes more skill to use. Warriors can wreck perma-stealth builds now by equipping berserker stance. BTW, I run around with S/D as my build because of the shortcomings of D/P. That would be the reason I linked the definition of scrub to you because you seem to think it’s just easy mode, but it’s pretty easily countered by skilled players. S/D is overall the stronger set, but keep telling yourself that you are better because you use evasion instead of stealth. Why don’t you try using both at the same time and see which one you end up relying on more.

it’s obviously easier. so many more thieves use the permastealth and that’s the spec that kitten es most players off. it’s very clear which is the scrub easy mode spec. why else would this spec be played by the majority of thieves?

It’s very frustrating that most thieves pick this scrub easymode spec, because it ruins the reputation of all people playing thieves. Many players hate me simply because I play a thief, but their rage stems from the exploitation of perma stealth in wvw.

Because no one ever complains about perma-evade boon stripping thieves right? They aren’t thinking about making changes to non-stealth thieves at all.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

Really? Honest and decent thieves admit as much? Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses. In fact it’s much harder to take down a boon bunker using D/P than S/D. You might actually see honest and decent thieves running around with both sets to make up for what the other is lacking. Everyone thinks that their class/build takes more skill to use. Warriors can wreck perma-stealth builds now by equipping berserker stance. BTW, I run around with S/D as my build because of the shortcomings of D/P. That would be the reason I linked the definition of scrub to you because you seem to think it’s just easy mode, but it’s pretty easily countered by skilled players. S/D is overall the stronger set, but keep telling yourself that you are better because you use evasion instead of stealth. Why don’t you try using both at the same time and see which one you end up relying on more.

it’s obviously easier. so many more thieves use the permastealth and that’s the spec that kitten es most players off. it’s very clear which is the scrub easy mode spec. why else would this spec be played by the majority of thieves?

It’s very frustrating that most thieves pick this scrub easymode spec, because it ruins the reputation of all people playing thieves. Many players hate me simply because I play a thief, but their rage stems from the exploitation of perma stealth in wvw.

Because no one ever complains about perma-evade boon stripping thieves right? They aren’t thinking about making changes to non-stealth thieves at all.

Nope. never heard a single complaint about that.

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

Really? Honest and decent thieves admit as much? Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses. In fact it’s much harder to take down a boon bunker using D/P than S/D. You might actually see honest and decent thieves running around with both sets to make up for what the other is lacking. Everyone thinks that their class/build takes more skill to use. Warriors can wreck perma-stealth builds now by equipping berserker stance. BTW, I run around with S/D as my build because of the shortcomings of D/P. That would be the reason I linked the definition of scrub to you because you seem to think it’s just easy mode, but it’s pretty easily countered by skilled players. S/D is overall the stronger set, but keep telling yourself that you are better because you use evasion instead of stealth. Why don’t you try using both at the same time and see which one you end up relying on more.

it’s obviously easier. so many more thieves use the permastealth and that’s the spec that kitten es most players off. it’s very clear which is the scrub easy mode spec. why else would this spec be played by the majority of thieves?

It’s very frustrating that most thieves pick this scrub easymode spec, because it ruins the reputation of all people playing thieves. Many players hate me simply because I play a thief, but their rage stems from the exploitation of perma stealth in wvw.

Because no one ever complains about perma-evade boon stripping thieves right? They aren’t thinking about making changes to non-stealth thieves at all.

Nope. never heard a single complaint about that.

Really? Then, if no one complains about the boon-stripping capacity of S/D evade builds, why are they nerfing it?

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

Really? Honest and decent thieves admit as much? Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses. In fact it’s much harder to take down a boon bunker using D/P than S/D. You might actually see honest and decent thieves running around with both sets to make up for what the other is lacking. Everyone thinks that their class/build takes more skill to use. Warriors can wreck perma-stealth builds now by equipping berserker stance. BTW, I run around with S/D as my build because of the shortcomings of D/P. That would be the reason I linked the definition of scrub to you because you seem to think it’s just easy mode, but it’s pretty easily countered by skilled players. S/D is overall the stronger set, but keep telling yourself that you are better because you use evasion instead of stealth. Why don’t you try using both at the same time and see which one you end up relying on more.

it’s obviously easier. so many more thieves use the permastealth and that’s the spec that kitten es most players off. it’s very clear which is the scrub easy mode spec. why else would this spec be played by the majority of thieves?

It’s very frustrating that most thieves pick this scrub easymode spec, because it ruins the reputation of all people playing thieves. Many players hate me simply because I play a thief, but their rage stems from the exploitation of perma stealth in wvw.

Because no one ever complains about perma-evade boon stripping thieves right? They aren’t thinking about making changes to non-stealth thieves at all.

Nope. never heard a single complaint about that.

Really? Then, if no one complains about the boon-stripping capacity of S/D evade builds, why are they nerfing it?

no idea. ask them

Domey.9804:

much exaggeration in this thread
stealth is not broken, not poorly designed. the problem is 1 trait…infusion of shadow…give it a internal cd of 3sec and evrything will be good.

In every MMO it’s appeared in, any type of cloak/stealth as it works in GW2 (in combat use and/or spammable), it’s either been A ) overpowered or B ) Useless.

I’m pretty sure it’s not B, so…

For the record, I do play thief. I don’t particularly have a problem with thieves and I’ve never died to a thief when I wouldn’t have died to something else (except Ele because lol).

My problem with thief is simply that they can engage and disengage without fear. At all. In WvW, one thief can engage five or more players without having to worry at all. Likewise, thieves can say that the situation’s too hot for them and leave, just as easily.

Fact of the matter is, if thieves are dumb and screw up, they should be punished for it. The current perma stealth meta doesn’t apply this unlike every other profession.

Frankly, at this point, I’m hoping Anet does release an expansion as that will be the perfect excuse for them to radically revise some professions, like thief and elementalist. Because, right now, they’re both broken to hell, and quite boring to play against.

I don’t hate thieves and I don’t want them to be nerfed into oblivion. However, right now, in the current game, thieves are simply an excuse for bad players to get easy kills, use cheap tactics, and feel good about themselves for doing it. I personally think that’s a disservice to the people who genuinely enjoy the class, and I’d like to see it fixed.

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that as a burst build which it seems you’re referring to you’ve wasted all your initiative with the hs spam (ineffective against most experienced players) so you either use blinding powder or shadow refuge to leave. Blinding powder will get you 3(4) seconds of stealth while SR will give your opponent 4 seconds to melt you inside of it or knock you out of it. You probably are going to have to burn shadowstep the utility to get some distance in between you and the person now trying to kill you meaning that you’ve just blown 2 cooldowns on 50-60 second times. It seems you’re in the same boat as the person you tried to attack.

So you have used 1/2 Utilities, while the other person has burned weapon skills AND utilities. Come back when Thief weapon skills have an actual cool down then what you are saying can be considered, until then the Thief will ALWAYS have the upper hand when re-engaging someone who they have forced to burn weapon skills AND utilities to survive.

I’m just not gonna go over the whole thread because after a quick skim this is what all the stealth hate boils down to:

What other class can kill a class just using the same attack over and over and over.

Stealth is WAY to much reward and no risk, if you are losing you can just stealth, run and reset…

Solo play?

Warriors. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCVmfL3eJIY
Guardians. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVqzKMTHvU
Mesmers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqcDx4Tu0_U
Engineers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r-Nx-NJukw
Rangers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESl4njj4xxY
Necromancers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xORNg_wOIv8

Those are just quick google searches. I make no statements about the player skill only that I wanted to state that every class can solo roam in WvW effectively.

One could argue that swiftness is too much reward for the risk taken. It would be an equally bad argument however.

Funny how easy it is to run from a stealth spammer if the skill causes you discomfort or you feel the player is above your level. Would anyone like to enlighten these folks as to why? Personally, I want them to research it on their own, maybe even play a thief (more).