Guild Wars 2

This thread is an attempt of me to redesign the Thief Class in a complete way from its head to its feet with the goal to come up with something, that would be again a more viable Class, than what the Thief currently is.

• Class Mechanics – What makes the Thief stand out in battle and unique as also helpful for the group for why you would want to have a Thief in your group?
• Weapons & Skills – How will the Class Mechanics work with their Weapon Skills, Utilities and Elites?
• Utilities
• Elite
• Traits – How do the Traits support or expand the Class Mechanics of the Thief?
• Roles & Specializations – What kind of roles has the Thief Class, wherefore are they needed and good for and into which kind of Class can a Thief evolve to receive different roles?

Class Mechanics: – What makes the Thief stand out in battle and unique as also helpful for the group for why you would want to have a Thief in your group?

So lets start this thread with the essential design part of what makes a Class a Class – their mechanics, the DNA practically, which makes every class different to play and feel like.

In my honest opinion the Thief 2.0 that I have in my mind should be a Class Mechanic Design which is based on the following abilities:

• Advanced Stealth – With that I mean, a Stealth, that is different, than the Standard Stealth that maybe some other Classes can use also, a Stealth that is in overall significantly more group supportive, than the Standard Stealth of other Classes
• Advanced Poisons – Thieves are Masters of Deadly Venoms, when they poison you in any kind of form, it should be different, than getting poisoned by an other Clss, their Poisons need to be more effective
• Superior Agility – Thieves are known for their quickness, they should be from all Classes the one that can move the fastest and works in a battle like a whirlwind, one moment here, the next there to confuse the enemy with their swift movements
• Stealing – Stealing is and should be the most significant trademark ability of the Thief Class, that should be more, than what it currently is. Stealing needs to become more effectful and with that I do mean per se the Thief needs to become a better Boon Stealer
• Superior Evasion – Something that should automatically come along with the Superior Agility, but with Superior Evansion I mean also, that the Thief needs to become better in avoiding Damage, than by using only Dodge Rolls. There are thigns that need to get improved here to give Thieves a better role in the game that gives them also more group support.
• High Critical Performance – Thieves with their sharp eyes and their stealing skills and knowledge about venoms have a superb understanding about the anatomy of their enemies to know exactly where to attack someone to land a critical hit.
  This means, Thieves should be one of the best Classes when it comes to DPS through high critical Direct Damage with that they can quickly take out the weak and unprotected targets before they need to vanish in thin air, before too many enemies recognize them and rush to them to help their allies in danger, or with the element of Stealth to use it for a quick surprise attack to burst a target down and leave it in a weakened state if the attack wasnt deadly, so that other allies have then an easy game with the target, so that the Thief can focus on stalking the next enemy

This are the key elements that the Thief Class has what makes out the Thief and its Gameplay Design, making you feel like a fast predator, which is very strong in taking quickly out single targets, but needs to be very agile and on the move constantly, not avoid being attacked by too many enenemies at once.
They are the typical Hit&Run Class, the vultures, that wait for the right tactical moment to attack, laying out traps if needed to bring enemies into the right position to have an easy game with them, or ambush targets in a direct approach to burst them down, before they saw you even coming, so that enemies need always be cautious and aware of their surroundings

Weapons of a Thief

In my honest opinion the Core Weapons of the Basic Thief Class need to get expanded a slightly bit in the near future. They should have a bit more Build Diversity.

This is how I think which Weapons the Basic Thief Class and their Specializations should be able to use:

• Main & Offhand Sword
• Main & Offhand Dagger
• Main & Offhand Mace
• Main & Offhand Axe
• Short & Longbow
• Pistols
• Throwing Weapons (Chakrams, Shurikens, Kunais)

With Specialization:

• Staff (Daredevil)
• Whip/Chain Sickle (Infiltrator)
• Rifle (Gunslinger)
• Torch (Saboteur)
• Katars/Claws/Gauntlets (Rogue)

Main Mechanic – Initiative (And its possible Sub Forms it can have for Specializations)

The Basic Thief uses Initiative, an Energy Management System which sets Initiative Points as requirement for the Weapon Skills to use them instantly without any Activation Times and without any Recharge Times as long you have enough Initiative to use your Weapon Skills.
I think every of the proposed total amount of 5 Specializations should use Initiative in a different way and also partwise expand the Core Mechanic of Initiative by its own unique additions.

Daredevil – Dual Initiative – A Daredevil should have when spending Initiative the advantage from it, that they gain back endurance. Their Initiative Bar should be also longer than that of the Basic Thief. Their twist with Initiative should be, that the Daredevil should have two Initiative Bars, one for Weapon Skills, and the other for Utility Skills to allow them also to use Utility Skills without Recharge Times as long they have Initiative for that.
Daredevils also should have no Recharge Times anymore for Weapon Swapping, or at least a significantly shorter time with that, than Basic Thieves

Gunslinger – Bullet Reload – A Gunslinger has its very own different Initiative in form of Bullet Reload when using firearms like Pistols or the Rifle. With Bullet Reload, the Gunslinger can add special side effects with the help of their various Bullet Types to the effects of their Weapon Skilsl to enhance the original weapon skil lwith the effects from the Bullet.

Infiltrator – Shadow Walking – An Infiltrator uses his Initiative to improve their specialized Shadow Steps into a Shadow Walking, an improve Shadow Step that lets them phase shift over longer distances than a usual Shadow Step, while avoiding also all kinds of incoming damage, except of Conditions that they already had when using Shadow Walking. Due to Shadow Walking being very exhausting to use, it costs Initiative over time. Shadow Walking can be used also to extend Stealth Durations, because while phase shifting slows down for you as long as you use Shadow Walking the speed of how fast your Stealth Durations run down and increases also your Movement Speed by 50% (Super Speed).
So a Stealth, that usually would last 10 seconds for example, will last under Shadow Walking 15 seconds at full Initiative.

Saboteur – Manipulations – A Saboteur uses Initiative differently than all others. He can add to his Skills as long he has Initiative for it Manipulations as Side Effect.
Manipulations are Effects, which can cause either alot of combat hindering negative Conditions, or can take even control over things, like Minions, Turrets, Summons and Gyros to flip them over to your side, letting them attack their former masters/creators instead. making this way Saboteurs the absolute Bunker Killers that counterplay these builds out by turning the enemies’s damage sources against themself.

Rogue – Exploitation – Rogues use their initiative in a specialized way that makes them the king of all thieves as they can steal the most effective way from all kinds of Thief Specializations. Stealing as a Rogue will cost then Initiative, but the Steals will be somewhat of more effecttive then and adds new Exploitation Effects and exchanges out their complete Steal Skills with different more effective Robbery Skills while also expanding the Steal Slots so that a Rogue can steal more oftenly than a Basic Thief.

PS: Continue further, soon, need first do to now my daily GW2 business of farming Gifts for Presence xD

Now that I think of of it, thief should have this skill: “Evade all incoming attacks for 6s” This is basically an invulnerable skill, the thief becomes blur as to mimick that it is dodging all attacks. Basically it is an invulnerable skill, a skill that the Thief should have.

What you’ve posted so far is good but mostly for future prospects.(even though some of the things sound way too op to even think about putting in the game)

For now try to make your post on how to make the current thief more viable by focusing on current specializations, skills and weapons.

Skills – How the Weapon Skills should look like, considering the Main Mechanics

Swords

1) Cross Slash > Evasive Strike > Rapid Needle
A Double Strike that causes cripple with the second hit on the target when it had lesser health than you and if it had more health, it will weaken instead the target.
Followed by an Attack whose Attack Anination is coming with an Auto Evade of incoming hits, ended by four quick thrusts that cause Fury for you and Bleedings on your Target

Stealth Attack
Stigma of Vileness
Attack a foe from behind and cause to your target a Stigma of Vileness that is a negative effect over time which dazes the target some seconds later and converts 2 Conditions from you over to the Target when that happens too.

2) Mirror Slice
Shadowstep to a target to turn yourself then technically into a bouncing melee (Self Body Trick Shot like) projectile, that slices through and immobilizes up to 3 Targets. Use Shadow Return then to teleport you back to the spot when you activated Mirror Slice and cure a Condition.

3 Solo) Lotus Strike > Golden Lotus Strike
Attack the Target with a short leaping cleaving strike, which poisons and dazes the hit targets. Turns then into Golden Lotus Strike, using the shining blade of your sword to blind the foe, before performing then a quick guaranteed critical strike.

3 D-Off) Flanking Strike > Larcerous Strike
Deal Damage, that is significantly increased, if you hit the enemy from behind or the sides Turns then into Larcerous Strike, causing you after the attack to go into a defensive stance, which lets you block the next incoming hit to perform instantly a counterattack after the first hit that will cleave and steal two boons.

3 P-Off) Pistol Slash > Ninetails Strike
Stuns the target with a quick Pistol Slash. Turns then into Nintails Strike, letting you perform nine fast consecutive strikes with your sword, while evading incoming hits and beign rooted at the place. Gain Vigor, when at least 3 strikes of nine hitted.

3 S-Off) Horns of the Ox > Scissor Blades
Perform a Leap Attack with both swords impaling the target like the Horns of an Ox, what will stun the target and cause Torment. Turns then into Scissor Blades, which is swinging both blades like a scissor. This Attack will make the enemy suffer on a relatively long lasting Weakness

3 M-Off) Malicious Strike
Strike the target enemy with your Offhand Mace, causing Poison and Cripple.
If you attack from behind with this Skill, then it will cause Confusion and Blindness instead

3 A-Off) Hack & Slash
Perform a two hit combo, lead by you Offhand Axe, followed by the Mainhand Sword.
The first part will cause Bleedings, the second part of the attack will cause damage base on how many conditions the foe suffer on.
If you hit with this a target that has more than two Conditions, then this Attack will steal also a Boon.

4) Night Blade
Perform a cleaving vampiric strike with your offhand sword, that causes bleedings to your hit foes.
As long as the enemy/ies bleed/s from this Attack, you will gain their Bleeding Tick/s as Health Regeneration. Hittign 3 targets with this attack will give you by this means a stronger Health Regen, than when you hit only one target with this attack.

5) Dance of Blades
Perform a whirling attack with that you hit all targets around you fast multiple times, causing Vulnerability per strike. While you perform this Skill, you reflect projectiles.

Logged in for the first time in months to say that; if this kind of stuff is added to the game then I might come bask.

I quit this game months ago to go play WoW and I’m much happier playing that, than playing a Thief on GW2.

This post is very well thought out, interesting and with enough work, balanced. Awesome work OP.

Thanks for the feedback. I’ll finetune everything later more, as we all know, on screen/paper does everything look the first time awesome, where I do think its needed.

But for now, the next Weapon

Daggers

1) Fox Fangs > Wild Strike > Flashing Blades > Golden Fox Strike
Two quick strikes granting you each a second of Quickness, followed by an attack than lets you regain Endurance. Next comes Flashing Blades which is an unblockable fast hit that blinds foes also. Finished by the new Thief unique ability of a 4th Auto Attack – Golden Fox Strike that will grant you Fury if the Target had more Health than you, if you had lesser Health, you will steal a Boon and heal yourself with the attack

Stealth Attack
Assassination
Backstab your Enemy from behind, dealing doule Damage if you hit the target from any flanking side and three times the damage if you hit actually the back of the Target.
Gain Health back if you downed or killed an enemy with this Attack based on 25% of the dealt damage and gain Fury and Swiftness.

2) Heartseeker
Leap at your foe with a range of 600 and deal with the attack more Damage, so lesser the health of your target was. Was the Health bigger, than yours, will cause Heartseeker also additionally Torment.

3 Solo) Iron Palm
Shadow Step to your target and punch your target with all the force behind your surprising fist to send your target flying, launching your enemy away from you and return to your original place.

3 D Off) Death Blossom
Do an evasive attack over your enemies, hitting five targets five times where each hit causes Bleedings. You avoid all incoming attacks, until you stand again on your feet.
During this Attack you reflect projectiles.

3 S Off) Flying Dagger Strike
Thow your Dagger, followed by a Shadow Step Attack on impact of the Dagger Hit, which will immobilize your Target and Chill it.

3 P Off) Shadow Shot
Shoot an unblockable blinding shot and then shadow step back to throw your Dagger, which causes Confusion

3 M Off) Basilisk Strike
A two hit attack, that first hits you with a Basilisk Venom imbued Dagger, followed by a guaranteed critical crushing strike of your mace. Gain Might when you attack a target that is below 50% Health with this Attack.

3 A Off) Unsuspecting Strike
Deals more Damage, so more Health the Target has. Works practically as Heartseeker, just without Leap and the other way around. But causes additionally Vulnerability.
The Attack has also a very little Evade Frame, if you attack with it Targets that have more Health than you.

4) Dancing Dagger
Throw an unblockable Dancing Dagger, that will bounce off from up to 3 Targets, which cripples foes and steals Boons, if the Target was under 50% Health. it will deal now again its old Damage it had before its nerf and also increased velocity by 25%

5) Cloak and Dagger
Stealth yourself immediately with a Choke Gas filled Smoke Bomb’s cloud that will deal Damage first before you Stealth from it, Poison and Blind all nearby enemies. The Choke Gas Cloud will stay for a while and causes Daze, if enemies stay longer than two seconds in it.

As much as a rework thief needs, I think some of these ideas come off as a bit too strong or out of the norm. Like adding quickness and an unblockable blind and fury to an auto attack chain is…. excessive. I do agree thief needs reworks on some high levels but not this high.

I 100% agree with the philosophies that thief should stand out in its builds since sticking to the basic structures of things like conditions, stealth and evasion simply do not work well with the thief mechanics but at the same time there needs to be some similarities so such mechanics can be balanced across the professions that have access to them. Altering them is based on traits, it shouldn’t naturally be unique otherwise.

Orpheal, I was really glad that your suggestion to do specializations got implemented in this game, but I really don’t know what you are thinking with something like this. Thief needs improvement, but this is really too much.

Just to mention the most OP thing I can see in here:

Saboteur – Manipulations – A Saboteur uses Initiative differently than all others. He can add to his Skills as long he has Initiative for it Manipulations as Side Effect.
Manipulations are Effects, which can cause either alot of combat hindering negative Conditions, or can take even control over things, like Minions, Turrets, Summons and Gyros to flip them over to your side, letting them attack their former masters/creators instead. making this way Saboteurs the absolute Bunker Killers that counterplay these builds out by turning the enemies’s damage sources against themself.

Basically this means just by slotting in 1 specialization, you are able to disable an enemies heal skill, all utility skills and the elite skill. But that’s not all (that alone would be pretty OP), but the thief would get this skills for himself? Just imagine a saboteur in PvP which comes along a minion master necro (a minion type which doesn’t have a duration). So, the saboteur could run with permanent full minions army AND has its own heal skill, utilities and elite. Something like this should never happen. Even if the minion steal would have a duration, stealing the enemies full utility bar is a no go.

@ Kodama:
Please think about it, how often in PvP/WvW will you really meet on a MM Necro? There are also alot of other Builds that are favored and played by many other people in PvP/WvW and not just only the current Bunker Meta.
The Saboteur is simply just one build of several, thats just specialized in countering Bunker Builds. This is exactly what this Game needs right now the most, this pesty bunker meta that came along with HoT and the Condition overbuff of the 23rd June Patch aren’t healthy absolutely for this game.
This Game needs a Class Build, that is able to do something against any kind of Minion Bunkers to break through them, so that such Bunkers can’t permanently hold especially in Conquest PvP the most important points pretty forever without that you have a chance to free the spot from them.
You see bunkers pretty much everywhere now and the Saboteur would be just the right answer agaisnt this new type of meta to keep it in check…
Its a clear role for the Thief and its especialyl something useful that gives the class somethinf, what it direly needs – group support and what is please better group support, than by weaking an enemy by stealing their “weapons” to fight fire practicalyl with fire?.
That’s the basic quint essence of the thief – to steal from others – and with that I mean really stealing something and not this laughable current Steal Skills that steal absolutely nothing from them, but generate only out of thin air a skill thats based on the class from which you have stolen.
That’s not stealing for me and was always for me something what made thieves so far just only wannabe thieves that are more charlatan, which just pretended to have stolen something, but in fact stole nothing …
Also a reason, why I think it’s an absolute must that thieves need to receive more Boon Stealing, as that is so far the only thing, where the Thief Class shines in and actually stole really something from their enemies to become stronger while they made their enemies for themself and their allies at the same time weaker.

Please refrain also from overgeneralizing the idea directly as OP, when I haven’t written yet any details about how exactly this Specialization should work out later.
I just have described only the difference about what should make the Saboteur feel different compared to the other effects that other specializations should have wih their initiative systems.
You are laying words into my mouth here, which I haven’t even written, how the mechanic should functionize later.
There are many factors in here, which need to be taken into consideration to make Manipulations work in a balanced way.
Only because a Saboteur uses a manipulation doesn’t mean that they instantly steal their enemies whole skill bar.
That’s absurd and not what I have suggested here.
Also dont forget that it is every player’s own decision to go for the risk of playing a complete build with only minions – what in consequence means, if you should meet on a build that is a counterplay to yours, it is your own risk to be outpplayed by the build then, because you have the freedom of always deciding to change your utilities, elite and heal skills out agaisnt something else to go not out with a complete minion build.
However, theres still then also something like – Player Skills that make up for a difference too … and Weapon Skills which aren’t affected at all by Manipulations that can steal any Minions and theres also a Class, that is not affected at all by Manipulations – Mesmers, as Manipulations affect only physical and magical minions with physical bodies (Manifestations)(Turrets, Gyros, Undeads, Summons, Spiritual Weapons) Clones are nothign of that, they are just illusions, soething with no physical body to control, nor are they magical manifestations…they are pure mind play, irritations that you just seem to believe to see, but don’t exist really.

Same as much as it is a risk for Saboteurs to go out full with maniplations only, as this makes them predictable and not very flexible agaisnt other enemies, for which using different utilities skills, ect. would be more useful.

@ Ninja: like said, I’ll finetune things later more. To the Auto Attack Chain be said only, the intention of this is simply said that Thieves should have per se the fastest Auto Attack of all, especially with Daggers in this case as its their fastest light weapon they use usually. 2s Quickness is nothing, they are pretty much over when you complete the auto Attack Chain and to receive the Quickness, Fox Fangs need to hit an Enemy Target.
The Blind is simply there to make it for the Thief in Melee Combat a little bit safer and the Fury is just part of the High Critical Damage Performance Philosophy that I have for Thieves. Thieves shouldnt be forced to put so much points into Precision just to get high Critical Hit Rates, it should come automatically over using specific skills in combat.
Also I suggest that Fury needs to get nerfed/buffed at the same time by changing it from a flat direct +20% Buff in Critical Hit Rate to a change of enough Precision for basically +15% Critical Hit Rate and 15% increased Critical Damage through changing Fury to boost Precision/Ferocity, making it work similar like Might, but just with Precision/Ferociry instead.

I hope, I have made clear here, that its not my intention here to create some kind of new over thief, that needs to get nerfed then down to hell for the next 3 years patch per patch slowly .
My intention is it to work here on something, that will work as a clear and direct design that makes it easy to understand for players, what for roles and builds for this class are its strengths and weaknesses and that hopefully in a more viable and overall for groups useful way, than the current thief design, so that Thieves also have a place for Raids, so that Thieves also again seen as a nice addition for the group in PvP and not as something, that makes people yell at you, that they are doomed to lose (and sadly they are oftenly right, because we absolutely offer nothing anymore to the table that makes us valuable for a group!!), because you are in their group and that you should change your class you play …(never ever before seen a game in such a bad balance state, that something shameful like this ever happened to me…)

Strengths
- Mobility (Fastest Moving
- Agility (Fastest Attacking, Superior Evasion)
- Becoming stronger by Stealing from Enemies, to turn the tides, when used at the right moment.
- Surprise Attacks (Stealth)
- Taking out quickly Single/Weak Targets (Solo Roaming)
- Most effective Poisons

Weaknesses
- Lower Health than most other Classes
- No direct own access to defensive Boons. Must be stolen (Protection, Resistance, Aegis, Stability)
- Risky Energy Management, as playing too bursty can bring your own death quickly if you run out too early of Initiative
- Due to low Health are damaging conditions, especially Confusion and Torment a real pain in a thieve’s butt, especiyll due to thieves being not the best at Condition Removal, or sustaining them.
- Have no big Minion Armies to protect/heal them and what they can summon for help, has the shortest durations (20/30s, compared to 60s and permanent in case of the Necro)
- Gets affected in regard of DPS Loss the most from Weakness, as a Thief that can’t deal critical hits, is a dead thief over short or longer time because without critical hits, thieves hit like wet noodles. A non critical backstab is laughable, just a high critical one is a serious danger for example.

I don’t know OP, your suggesting to add a lot of effects to current skills that simply don’t need to be there like projectile reflection on death blossom, torment on hs, or a piercing immobilizing projectile for sword 2. Thief needs buffs, yes, but more so improvements to QoL and bringing outdated skills/mechanics to par with others.

There is a lot to comment on so I will try to summarize it, you say you don’t want a thief that will get nerfed for the next 3 years but such suggestions would do just that. There is a fine distinction between being unique and being overpowered, and with the current profession balance, they should prioritize fixing the over powered (nerfs) and then work on making professions like thief unique. Not giving thief an insane amount of tools to use to add to the power creep, we need less of that not more.

Also don’t forget the resources needed to change thief to this degree, its unnecessary to rework every little detail, especially when not every little detail on thief is bad. For example I don’t think people would say backstab is a weak skill, however the set up behind it only to be outperformed by easier skills makes some people see it that way when what should happen is skills like that should be dialed back.

Balance wasn’t that great prior to HoT and then they added a whole bunch of mechanics to further the damage. All of this could of been avoided if we had regular balance patches and hotfixes to broken builds.

Partwise I can agree with you.
Like:
- GW2 needs more regular balance patches. 3 and more Months between the bigger Balance Patches is just a no go
- Backstab is not a weak skill, but compared of the bursts that other classes have currently it is, because it requires positioning and stealth as prerequisites to be able even to burst and then its still subpar to the bursts that other classes have that don’t need any prerequisites at all to be able to deal burst damage, other then pressing just a button …
- Bringing back the overbuffs of the other classes back to normal, before some bigger changes should be done with the thieves, because maybe just nerfing the power creep out of the other classes is already enough to bring the thief back to life., that no emergency operation redesign isn’t needed anymore xD

However, I said at the beginning, that this thread is a redesign from head to feet and as such I also want to make sure naturally also that certain skills, effects and so on also are after the changes more interesting, than they currently are, or in fact more fun to use and fitting for the thief class, because a class like this should have such skills that give you really as a player the feeling that you really actually play the most fastest class of the whole game!!
This feeling is currently absolutely missing for me – and that mostly since over 2 years by now, beginnign with it, that silly NIKE warriors in heavy armors can outrun us …. wtf where us just runs out the initiative to catch them…unless we waste an utility skill that is more important to have ready for use, when having to actually flee and not to catch somebody that should be never faster than us.

A skill like my proposed Mirror Slice would be such an improvement while wielding a Sword, as it would give you the impression, that you fight with a real fast class in combat, when using this skill, lettign your character quickly slice through up to 2 additionally targets that stood nearby to the target to which you shadow stepped.

Its simply a proposal for a skill that got inspired by the Berserkers Wild Strike Skill that turns enemy bodies into projectiles – the simpel thought process is here – What would it be like, if the thief would get a skill, that turns his own body into a projectile in an attack that uses the Trick Shot Mechanic:

Bingo! = Mirror Slice = an attack skill, that will look visually very fast , while using partwise the same skill mechanic like that of Infiltrator’s Strike, only that it is under my Mirror Slice a bit more dangerous, as it iwll hit 3 targets that can stand also a bit aside , while Infiltrator’s Strike can hit only 3 targets, when they all stood in Cleave Range.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Strike

Like said, sure, on screen/paper often things sound on first read very OP.
This is the best example!! People think instantly, whoah, bouncing between multiple targets fast.. OP OP OP…

But in fact, it is practically just the same thing that we have already now as Infiltrators Strike, just by me mechanically advanced to work in a more interesting, fun and fast looking way with an increased range for hitting more targets in general andn ot only, when all 3 are in cleave range.

Thief needs more Build Diversity, it currently lacks, because it has in my opinion too less useable Weapons, which in fact should belong to the Thief, because they fit to their vile, sinister and dark theme.
Just adding more useable Weapons to the Basic Thief do I not see as “insane amount of tools” and in case of that, should you have meant with this the Initiative System Additions, please dont forget that with every Specialization, regardless of which one you chose, you will always lose also something for the gains of what you receive by the specialization, so it’s also always a give and take procedure.

The Thief as it is right now with its few useable Weapons is way too predictable sadly.
The moment you see what weapons a Thief player currently uses, makes you instantly know exactly what to expect from that player what he will try to do.
This needs to change and one step into the right direction for that woudl be givign the Basic Thief some more useable Weapons and with this automaticalyl also more Build Diversiy due to their unique Dual Weapon Skill System, that comes into play from combining different One Hand Weapons.
Don’t you find it weird then, that Anet gave the thief Class then just not also Axes and Maces?
This – when in fact these were also very common weapons used by many thieves – sure not the super stereotype of “Assassins”, but both are common weapons that were used alot by many rogues, thieves, bandits and the like in the past and the Class is still called Thief and not like in GW1 Assassin.

I also never think that these Weapons will do fit ever as Specialization Weapons, therefore are Weapons, like the Rifle, Torch or new missing Weapon Categories like Whips/Chain Sickles and Claws/gauntlets ect. way too unique to not use better such things as far more interesting options for new Thief Specializations.
I rather prefer to see these Weapons being part of the Basic Thief, where they should belong to to provide for the overall Class more Build Diversity that can then get mixed with the Specializations to come up with some good and interestign combinations.

Like for example a Mace & Torch-Saboteur, which would be otherwise impossible, if both weapons would be put under different Specializations.
—-

Also some other Additions that I put to Skills, like Death Blossom are also already effects, that exist in the game -as they are basically Skill Effects from Caithe’s Skills where I think, they are in certain cases the absolutely right thing, how the thief Class should be like, without being OP. Caithes Reverse Blossom reflects projectiles.
I think if the Thieve#s Death Blossom could do that also too, it would make D/D Thief for sure more interesting and fun to play, without being too OP, because when it coudl reflect better on demand projectiles, it would brign enemies of the thief more to have to go into melee combat with them, if they don’t want to risk to get hurt by their own attacks. Mechanics like this are important for the Thief, like also especially the Mechanic that changes the effect of the skill based on how much health the enemy has to give the Thief something unique in what the class shines on – having more flexible combat skills that adapt their effects to the combat situation.

Added to change wish list.

some changes I’d like to see implemented.

Utilities

1 Get kittening rid of the shadow’s refuge AOE marker. It’s ridiculous. there is already tons of pbAOE that we don’t need to have a kittening bullsize target on top of that it’s bullkitten. Only we need to see it. It already has a a 60 sec cd. We’d still need to stay inside the refuge for the duration. Or make it so that instead we can actually prematurely leave the refuge with an significantly reduced stealth duration. that way our foes can still see where we left. But this gives us an bit of a counter vs revealed skills and massive aoe. shadow refuge is sometimes so impractical.

change bandits defence to 1.5 sec evade instead of a block lower the cd to 15 secs. give it a 1 basiliks venom oppurtunity.

Basiliks venom should have no casting time whatsoever., Increase CD from 40 to 45 seconds. Weaponskills

Make heartseaker base damage above 50 percent hp 422.

Come on 1687 below 25 percent health is just terrible.

Backstab needs to be be 2. 5 k in stealth mode.

just a few toughts.

So, continue with the work, the next Weapon

Maces

1) Unseen Fury > Shattering Assault > Shadow Fang >
An attack string, that is able to see the truth to hit the unseen and illusions, able to reveal hidden enemies on hit with Unseen Fury, dealing this way more damage, than when you hit somethign that you see. Gain short Fury if you hit something what you see, and a longer fury, if you hitted a stealthed enemy or a clone.
With a followed Shattering Assault, you crush illusions regardless of their health left and causes them to shatter in such a way, that the shattering harms nearby enemies and causes you and alies to receive random boons.
Shadow Fang is at the end of the chain a ranged Reverse Shadow Step Skil with that you shoot your shadow to catch your target and reverse shadow step it back to your location. So basically a damaging Pull Skill. But it has a twist, if the enemy is standing on a higher position than you and cant be pulled due to something preventing the pull, then you get shadow stepped to the location of the enemy instead.

Stealth Attack:
Falling Spider
Falling Spider is an attack ,which cripples, poisons and torments the target when being hit and knocks the enemy down if the foe is still after 3 seconds poisoned.

2) Exhausting Assault
A quick Attack, which causes Vulnerability to the enemy and causes chill, if you hit with it enemies that have more than 10% Vulnerability

3 Solo) Disrupting Stab
Stab Your Mace with a quick thrust into your foe to daze the target and make a side step to evade other damage sources meanwhile.

3 M Off) Critical Strike
Perform with both maces a dual strike that is always critical and launches the foe away a little bit as you leap over a short distance to the enemy.

3 S Off) Critical Defenses
Parry the next incoming attack with your Sword, to counter the attack with an unblockable attack and gain Might. Gain more Might, if that Counterattack was critical and gain then also Protection.

3 D Off) Critical Agility
You attack the enemy and gain Swiftness .
Was the attack critical, do you gain also for some time Quickness and your Swiftness renews itself into Super Speed. When using this Skill, you gain increased Toughness based on your Level as long as Swiftness/Super Speed is on you and Conditions last less long on you. The boosts of this are stronger under Super Speed.

3 P Off) Rogues Tongue
A quick hot shot from your pistol ,that causes Burning and hits all foes in the line of sight, stealing also a boon from hit targets.

3 A Off) Golden Fang Strike
Evade incoming attacks with a backwards step with this attack and throw your axe while doing so at your target, causing blindness with this attack and cripple the foe.

4) Dark Apostasy
Shadow step to targets and eal enormous damage against blinded enemies. Confuses also blinded enemies and heals you, if you attack with it a blind, poisoned or crippled target.

5) Black Widow Strike
Hit a target with a very long lasting high stack of Poison, which intensifies and renews itself so more other conditions the enemies receives over time after being hit with Black Spider Strike.
Eample: The initial strike deals 5 stacks of poison for 7 seconds. After the atack receives the enemy attacks that cause 3 more conditions. For every received new condition renews poison itself for a second and becomes a stack stronger.
This makes Mace with its Stealth Attack and Number 2 a strong Poison based Condition Weapon, especially when being combined with Venoms.

One, that is able to be layed out also as a good hybrid with the Dual Weapon Skills

PS: Plus: More GW1 Nostalgia from returning Skills <3

The next one.

Axes

1) Tomahawk > Razorblade > Wood Cutter
Throws an Axe at your target that bounces back to you, dealing damage twice to the original target and anythign that stood in the way of the returning Axe. Followed by a spiraling Leap Attack with that you hit all foes in line of sight dealing Vulnerability and if they had already Vulnerability, then additionally also Bleedings. Ending the chain with the Wood Cutter, a final downward strike that causes Weakness and grants Regeneration if you hit with it enemies with more health than you and Vigor if you hit with it an enemy that has lesser health than you.

Stealth Attack
Guillotine
An always critical hit, which steals a boon and causes for a short moment fear and a high torment.

2) Triple Chop
A quick rotation of attacks that deals 3 consecutive hits that deal increasing Bleedings. The first 1 Bleeding, the second 2 bleedings, the 3rd 3 Bleedings, when you hit with all three attacks the same target.

3 Solo) Mantis Touch
Strike the targeted enemy with a poisonous attack, which causes a leeching effect letting you regenerate health, as long the enemy is poisoned.

3 S Off) Black Mantis Thrust > Dark Prison
A two part attack combo, finished with a shadow step thrust attack, which lets you steal two boons and the skill turns then into Dark Prison, a follow up attack that stuns foes and reverse shadow steps them back to the location where you used Black Mantis Thrust earlier. The stun happens after the Reverse Shadow Step.

3 D Off) Dirty Tricks
Throws dirty sand n dust into the air to blind nearby targets and if this attack hitted a bleedign enemy, it poisons also.

3 M Off) Desperate Strike
Deals more damage so lesser your health is. Gain Might, Fury and Retaliation if you hit with it a target, that has more health than you and lose a condition.

3 A Off) Feigned Neutrality
Hold your axes in a way to feign neutrality to your target, to gain Regenration, protection and stability for some time and gain stealth if you get attacked while Feigned Neutrality gets used.

3 P Off) Deadly Haste
Shoot with your Offhand Pistol in a fan from one side to the other multiple bullets quickly. Every hit target gets slowed a second for the amount of bullets that hit the targets. You therefore gain for every hit target Super Speed for a second.

4) Mirrored Stance
Go into a defensive stance, as long you hold the skill, losing initiative over time. But as long as you hold it and use the mirrored stance, will receive enemies that attack you partially also damage. This Effect adds up with the Retaliation Boon.
After ending the Stance, you copy the last attack that hitted you of the targeted enemy and use it as a counterattack, in casse it was an attack from a weapon that the thief can use also. Was it no weapon that the thief uses also, then you gain Protection when you end the stance.

5) Golden Phoenix Strike
Gain Fury as also Retaliation and leap with a fiery strike towards your target to deal with the strike some Burning and receive a part of the damage you deal as health back.
If you leap with this attack over downed or dead allies, they will regain also health back as a regeneration that lasts as long the enemy burns from this attack.

The next Weapons

Shortbow

1) Trick Shot
You shoot a bouncing arrow that bounces up to four times between targets and which steals boons, if a target gets hit twice by the same arrow with a chance of 30%

Stealth Attack
Surprise Shot
An attack out of stealth, that immobilizes and weakens a target for a long time, significantly longer than usual.

2) Cluster Bomb
You shoot over a range of 1200 a Cluster Bomb, which you can let explode to cause over a radius of 360 to up to 10 targets AoE Damage that will cause Vulnerability and Burning to them. If you don’t let the bomb explode, the impact damage will be alot stronger, hitting only 3 targets and works as Combo Field Finisher.

3) Leaping Mantis Sting
A quick evasive forward leap with that you immobilize targets and leech some health from the hit target.

4) Choking Gas
Shoot an Arrow filled with Choking Gas, that will create a Poison Field with a radius of 360 that will last for a duration of 6 seconds, which will poison up to 10 targets every second with 2 Poison Stacks. If targets stand longer than 2 seconds in that field, then they will get dazed.

5) Beguiling Haze
Shoot an Arrow filled with Beguiling Haze, that will create a Confusion Field with a radius of 240, that will last for a duration of 4 seconds, which will confuse up to 5 targets every second with a stack. Beguling Haze causes also a new Thief unique condition – Hallucinations, which is a screen blur effect know from the Toxin Condition of Living Story Season 1, but which in this case deactivates also for the enemies their friendly fire, letting their attacks hit also their allies for maximum chaos.

Longbow

1) Agile Shot > Knee Shot > Snake Arrows
A fast performed shot, followed by a shot to the Knee, causing Cripples, followed by a volley of three unblockable poisoned arrows at once.

Stealth Attack
Oath Shot
Shoot a guaranteed unblockable critical shot at all targets in line of sight that lets you gain Regeneration.

2) Disabling Shot
You shoot at your target, while performing a backwards evade step. The hit target will get slowed. If you hit with this skill a target, that was already slowed, then it will disable for the enemy for two seconds the usage of utility skills.

3) Concentrated Shot
Focus in your concentrated shot, to snipe a target over a long range. This attack gains in maximum range, so longer you concentrate, before you fire off the arrow.
You lose initiative over time so long as you concentrate. At 0 Initiative you automatically shoot. Gains a significant Damage Bonus per spent Initiative when performed out of Stealth. Renews all Boons that lasted on you when you shoot.
The Attack ins unblockable when performed out of Stealth also.

4) Fan of Arrows
Hold your Bow horrizontaly to shoot a flurry of six arrows in a broad fan shape.
Each of these six arrows splitters and causes AoE Torment.

5) Shadowsphere Shot
Shoot an Arrow, that shadowsteps you to the target location, causing AoE Blindness for all enemies that stood at that moment in your AoE at the spot where you land.
You create at the spot where you land a Shadowsphere, which absorbs for a while all incoming projectile attacks. Stealths you and Allies, if it absorbed at least 1 Attack for 5 seconds when the Shadowsphere ends.

Next Weapon:

Pistols

1) Vital Shot
A Shot, that deals exponentially more Damage, so more Health the Enemy has.

Stealth Attack
Sneak Attack
Shoot with a quick rapid fire at your target, dealing multiple hits which cause each a Stack of Vulnerability

2) Body Shot
A strong overcharged shot with more range than usual with your Pistol to the Body of your enemy, causing the enemy to get immobilized and receive vulnerability.

3 Solo) Piercing Shot
Shoot a strong bullet, with more range than usual, that pierces through targets and hits enemies behind the target also. Removes also 1 Boon from hit targets.

3 S Off) Shooting Star Shadow Step yourself into the air with the pistol by a shot into the sky, to perform a ground targeted jump attack from above, causing at the ground target AoE burning and a shockwave from the impact of the attack, that launches foes away from the spot.

3 D Off) Shadow Strike
Strike your foe, causing Torment, shadow Step away and shoot at the Target for additional Blindness.

3 M Off) Reflector
Go into a defensive stance while holding the button, which costs Initiative over time. Meanwhile does the thief use the Mace, to reflect incoming projectiles back to the origin, like using the weapon as if it would be a baseball bat with its quick reflexes.
Gain Retaliation, when you end the stance.

3 A Off) Spellbreaker Shot
An attack, that is unblockable if the target has any boons on. it becomes also more powerful, Spellbreaker reduces the Durations of Boons by 1 second when being hit by it.

3 P Off) Bulletstorm
Unleash all your bullets in your pistols at once, shooting at your target unloading your pistols on it. All shots from this attack have a chance of 50% to bounce off from the target to nearby other targets. Bounced of bullets cause additionally bleedings.

4) Head Shot
Shoot at your target, causing Daze and when you interrupt your target, cause also a heavy confusion on it.

5) Blackpowder
Create a small AoE fireblast that burns all targets around you and leaves then a blind field from the blackpowders smoke you created for some seconds, which periodically blinds all foes that touch it.

Orpheal.8263:

Class Mechanics: – What makes the Thief stand out in battle and unique as also helpful for the group for why you would want to have a Thief in your group?

So lets start this thread with the essential design part of what makes a Class a Class – their mechanics, the DNA practically, which makes every class different to play and feel like.

In my honest opinion the Thief 2.0 that I have in my mind should be a Class Mechanic Design which is based on the following abilities:

• Advanced Stealth – With that I mean, a Stealth, that is different, than the Standard Stealth that maybe some other Classes can use also, a Stealth that is in overall significantly more group supportive, than the Standard Stealth of other Classes
• Advanced Poisons – Thieves are Masters of Deadly Venoms, when they poison you in any kind of form, it should be different, than getting poisoned by an other Clss, their Poisons need to be more effective
• Superior Agility – Thieves are known for their quickness, they should be from all Classes the one that can move the fastest and works in a battle like a whirlwind, one moment here, the next there to confuse the enemy with their swift movements
• Stealing – Stealing is and should be the most significant trademark ability of the Thief Class, that should be more, than what it currently is. Stealing needs to become more effectful and with that I do mean per se the Thief needs to become a better Boon Stealer
• Superior Evasion – Something that should automatically come along with the Superior Agility, but with Superior Evansion I mean also, that the Thief needs to become better in avoiding Damage, than by using only Dodge Rolls. There are thigns that need to get improved here to give Thieves a better role in the game that gives them also more group support.
• High Critical Performance – Thieves with their sharp eyes and their stealing skills and knowledge about venoms have a superb understanding about the anatomy of their enemies to know exactly where to attack someone to land a critical hit.
  This means, Thieves should be one of the best Classes when it comes to DPS through high critical Direct Damage with that they can quickly take out the weak and unprotected targets before they need to vanish in thin air, before too many enemies recognize them and rush to them to help their allies in danger, or with the element of Stealth to use it for a quick surprise attack to burst a target down and leave it in a weakened state if the attack wasnt deadly, so that other allies have then an easy game with the target, so that the Thief can focus on stalking the next enemy

This are the key elements that the Thief Class has what makes out the Thief and its Gameplay Design, making you feel like a fast predator, which is very strong in taking quickly out single targets, but needs to be very agile and on the move constantly, not avoid being attacked by too many enenemies at once.
They are the typical Hit&Run Class, the vultures, that wait for the right tactical moment to attack, laying out traps if needed to bring enemies into the right position to have an easy game with them, or ambush targets in a direct approach to burst them down, before they saw you even coming, so that enemies need always be cautious and aware of their surroundings

Some of the points here are applied to the current thief.

Regarding your “gunslinger” archetype, I posted a comprehensive suggestion for a rifle ES which gives the rifle particularly good abilities without just being the “OP killshot sniper” and fundamentally changes the way the profession plays. It’s still a work in progress, and I’m not sure it fits the “gunslinger” bill as I think it’s a bit too specific (I think “Gunslinger” implies P/P + rifle), but I figured I’d toss a link here, since your thread seems to have attracted much more attention than mine did.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Suggestion-WIP-The-Deadeye-ES-Suggestion/first#post5872957