Guild Wars 2

Hello fellow Teefs, i’ve been playing Thief for about 8 or 9 months, moved from warrior, and obsvly, loving the class, but i am having problems against Guardians.

So, i would like to know from the veteran ones, is there a way to deal against them? are they our Counter and we’re not supposed to beat them? It seems they can bunk the dmg, heal enough and kill us at the same time.

*note, i know we can step away, to restart the fight, but im talking about duels.

Im playing D/D Sbow. 5/6/0/3/0

pupi.2465:

Hello fellow Teefs, i’ve been playing Thief for about 8 or 9 months, moved from warrior, and obsvly, loving the class, but i am having problems against Guardians.

So, i would like to know from the veteran ones, is there a way to deal against them? are they our Counter and we’re not supposed to beat them? It seems they can bunk the dmg, heal enough and kill us at the same time.

*note, i know we can step away, to restart the fight, but im talking about duels.

Im playing D/D Sbow. 5/6/0/3/0

Need to know what type of guardians. Medi plus what weapon set?

Gabriell.4856:

pupi.2465:

Hello fellow Teefs, i’ve been playing Thief for about 8 or 9 months, moved from warrior, and obsvly, loving the class, but i am having problems against Guardians.

So, i would like to know from the veteran ones, is there a way to deal against them? are they our Counter and we’re not supposed to beat them? It seems they can bunk the dmg, heal enough and kill us at the same time.

*note, i know we can step away, to restart the fight, but im talking about duels.

Im playing D/D Sbow. 5/6/0/3/0

Need to know what type of guardians. Medi plus what weapon set?

Hummm, i think GS, havent paid attention to swap.

Assuming medi, here’s my advice:

- Don’t expect a fast kill. Keep yourself at high health and disengage when they pop defensive cooldowns (focus block, heal, elite invuln). Once you know these cooldowns are spent, go for the kill. Because of this, you will rarely want to spend initiative for HS→ backstabs until cooldowns are gone.
– Keep a blind field under them, particularly before they blow cooldowns.
– dodge away when they use the GS whirl, even if hey are in a blind field. That attack will strike faster than the blind is reapplied and does very high dmg.
– Dodge the GS pull. It has a similar animation to the whirl attack, so dodging as soon as you see that is wise, even if you’re not sure which attack it is yet.
– save your shadow step for Ring of Warding if the guard has hammer since you can’t evade out of it. If you don’t have that available, blind.
– don’t waste a steal when they use their heal since shelter will block it, even though steal will bypass aegis.
– Watch your health. Guards have good access to retal and can whittle away your HP, even if you’re not actively being hit.

And above all, practice. Good luck.

pupi.2465:

Gabriell.4856:

pupi.2465:

Hello fellow Teefs, i’ve been playing Thief for about 8 or 9 months, moved from warrior, and obsvly, loving the class, but i am having problems against Guardians.

So, i would like to know from the veteran ones, is there a way to deal against them? are they our Counter and we’re not supposed to beat them? It seems they can bunk the dmg, heal enough and kill us at the same time.

*note, i know we can step away, to restart the fight, but im talking about duels.

Im playing D/D Sbow. 5/6/0/3/0

Need to know what type of guardians. Medi plus what weapon set?

Hummm, i think GS, havent paid attention to swap.

You haven’t paid attention to trying to win.

Dahkeus.8243:

Assuming medi, here’s my advice:

- Don’t expect a fast kill. Keep yourself at high health and disengage when they pop defensive cooldowns (focus block, heal, elite invuln). Once you know these cooldowns are spent, go for the kill. Because of this, you will rarely want to spend initiative for HS-> backstabs until cooldowns are gone.
– Keep a blind field under them, particularly before they blow cooldowns.
– dodge away when they use the GS whirl, even if hey are in a blind field. That attack will strike faster than the blind is reapplied and does very high dmg.
– Dodge the GS pull. It has a similar animation to the whirl attack, so dodging as soon as you see that is wise, even if you’re not sure which attack it is yet.
– save your shadow step for Ring of Warding if the guard has hammer since you can’t evade out of it. If you don’t have that available, blind.
– don’t waste a steal when they use their heal since shelter will block it, even though steal will bypass aegis.
– Watch your health. Guards have good access to retal and can whittle away your HP, even if you’re not actively being hit.

And above all, practice. Good luck.

Thanks Dahkeus! You’re very helpful!

Of you are in PvP, don’t bother, just move on. In Wvw though…
Whenever I fight a guardian roaming, I always start out in Shortbow so that I can widdle him down with fire/air sigils and evade his initial burst. When he starts getting low, through down a poison field so his shelter is weakened. Once you have him at about half health this way, and only after he has used his heal, go in for the kill. The classic zerker medi guard will go down pretty fast without cooldowns.

I commend Dahkeus for the tip on how to deal with Guardians, but that is not the problem here.

To improve your skill, you need to pay more attention on what you’re doing than what your opponent is doing because unlike the other professions, you make a mistake as a Thief…it’s over.

So let’s not focus on what the Guardian was doing, but instead, tell us what you were doing, what build were you running and what is your playstyle?

If you master the Thief profession, it doesn’t really matter who your opponent is.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I commend Dahkeus for the tip on how to deal with Guardians, but that is not the problem here.

To improve your skill, you need to pay more attention on what you’re doing than what your opponent is doing because unlike the other professions, you make a mistake as a Thief…it’s over.

So let’s not focus on what the Guardian was doing, but instead, tell us what you were doing, what build were you running and what is your playstyle?

If you master the Thief profession, it doesn’t really matter who your opponent is.

I don’t agree with the idea that he should be more focused on what he is doing and less focused on the opponent. Also, he already indicated his build: d/d sb, 5/6/0/3/0. I agree, if you master the thief profession, it wont matter who are playing, but you have to outplay your opponent, and have knowledge of you opponent, otherwise you’ll get roflstomped. The advice given about guardians is exactly what the OP wanted, and included what he could do and what he can pay attention to about his playstyle WITH REGARDS to what the guardian is doing. Knowing a rotation and play style won’t mean a thing if the guardian blocks all your attacks and you don’t realize it because you are focused on what you are doing, and not what your opponent is doing.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I commend Dahkeus for the tip on how to deal with Guardians, but that is not the problem here.

To improve your skill, you need to pay more attention on what you’re doing than what your opponent is doing because unlike the other professions, you make a mistake as a Thief…it’s over.

So let’s not focus on what the Guardian was doing, but instead, tell us what you were doing, what build were you running and what is your playstyle?

If you master the Thief profession, it doesn’t really matter who your opponent is.

I completely disagree. Unlike the other professions, the thief does not have rotations and thus needs to be focused entirely on what his enemy is doing rather than trying to set up for something. Repositioning and basic mechanics, such as Infiltrator’s/Shadow Return locations should be mastered to the point where focus is not needed to know where you’ll be returning to and how far away you can move while returning on point. Only there can you start worrying about matchups, especially to guards. Shoutbow and Cele (and a variety of engineer builds) can almost totally ignore their enemies on principle that what their opponents are doing doesn’t matter as long as they maintain their rotations properly. The thief is the exact opposite.

Guards do well against thieves as a whole, so there is no real way to promote “win advice” or a way to utilize rotations to take advantage of the matchup in really any way. My biggest advice is to get a feel for playing a guard and learning the weaknesses of the guard and how to take advantage of them as a thief. Getting a feel for animation timing/a solid handle on their mechanics and paying attention to what they’re doing (or what they aren’t able to do) is how you’re going to beat them.

Klowde.9876:

I don’t agree with the idea that he should be more focused on what he is doing and less focused on the opponent. Also, he already indicated his build: d/d sb, 5/6/0/3/0. I agree, if you master the thief profession, it wont matter who are playing, but you have to outplay your opponent, and have knowledge of you opponent, otherwise you’ll get roflstomped.

Not quite my point exactly.

You can spend your entire Thief’s lifetime on studying your opponent but without self-reflection, this information means nothing.

The only time you can ever beat a Guardian is not because you outplayed him — it is because as a Thief you exactly know what your profession can do in that situation and that you have mastered the Thief’s skills to a point that it doesn’t really matter who you’re playing against.

The advice given about guardians is exactly what the OP wanted, and included what he could do and what he can pay attention to about his playstyle WITH REGARDS to what the guardian is doing. Knowing a rotation and play style won’t mean a thing if the guardian blocks all your attacks and you don’t realize it because you are focused on what you are doing, and not what your opponent is doing.

The problem is, there are multiple things a Guardian can do in a single combat that you cannot possibly prepare for. That is why this is not important.

What the OP needs to train for is to improve his reaction time so that he can evaluate the situation in real time and not waste time trying to remember what a poster have told him in the forum about on what to do in this situation, so that he can improvise his strategy and form a tactic on the fly. Therefore, your assumption that I was talking about “rotation” is false.

====================

DeceiverX.8361:

I completely disagree. Unlike the other professions, the thief does not have rotations and thus needs to be focused entirely on what his enemy is doing rather than trying to set up for something.

Then you’ll never improve since you’ll never know the mistakes you’re making.

Repositioning and basic mechanics, such as Infiltrator’s/Shadow Return locations should be mastered to the point where focus is not needed to know where you’ll be returning to and how far away you can move while returning on point.

Care to explain what do you mean by “mastered to the point”?

At what point that repositioning and basic mechanics and shadowstepping are considered mastered?

Shoutbow and Cele (and a variety of engineer builds) can almost totally ignore their enemies on principle that what their opponents are doing doesn’t matter as long as they maintain their rotations properly. The thief is the exact opposite.

I disagree. I don’t buy the fact that Thief is opposite, no rotation, or has no cooldown. If you mismanage your initiative or misuse your utilities, consider yourself under cool down.

Every time a Thief hides in stealth is a cool down. Blind → HS → BS is an example of a rotation. PW → Auto → PW is another example of a rotation.

Guards do well against thieves as a whole, so there is no real way to promote “win advice” or a way to utilize rotations to take advantage of the matchup in really any way.

That is why my suggestion is for the OP to focus on himself as a Thief than on his opponent. Because it is not about a “winning advice”, it is about the OP improving himself.

So you’re fighting a Guardian, you already admit defeat even before the duel? That is telling that you know nothing about your profession and what your profession can do.

Being a smart Thief is not based on what you know about your opponent, rather about what you know about the profession and what the profession can and cannot do.

My biggest advice is to get a feel for playing a guard and learning the weaknesses of the guard and how to take advantage of them as a thief. Getting a feel for animation timing/a solid handle on their mechanics and paying attention to what they’re doing (or what they aren’t able to do) is how you’re going to beat them.

This is a sound advice…if you want to play a Guardian.

Instead, as a Thief improve your reflexes and reaction time. You need to understand your skills and when to use them. Know when to take risk and when to be cautious. Patience is the key.

Your knowledge about the Guardian means nothing if you don’t have the descipline to use your profession effectively.

This discussion is making me get a greater view for a general gameplay, i just did some random duels, and suceed, thank you all about this.

Still, with this build (i have no love for another, and i tried, all of them), i got my kitten kicked from condi builds, especially, Thieves and Engs. I hate conditions!

pupi.2465:

This discussion is making me get a greater view for a general gameplay, i just did some random duels, and suceed, thank you all about this.

Still, with this build (i have no love for another, and i tried, all of them), i got my kitten kicked from condi builds, especially, Thieves and Engs. I hate conditions!

That is part of my point. Regardless of what you know about your opponent, if you don’t know how Thieves deal with conditions — you will fail as Thief.

One other thing I would add: Medi guardians are a really tough fight for thieves. Medi guards easily apply burning and retal hurts since the dagger attacks so quickly. On top of that, they can hold out for a long fight provide big burst that can just about 1-shot you if you don’t pay attention. In a serious game, it’s often not a bad idea to simply abandon a point if you end up in a 1 v 1 against a decent medi guard.

Oh! One other thing as well: Watch for when they pop focus block, especially if they’re just about to engage in the fight. If the focus block doesn’t get popped (takes 3 hits to pop it), then it does some decent damage, so guardians will often pop it before combat, then will Judge’s Intervention and land a big weapon burst attack just as it explodes for some really serious burst (this is the stuff that can 1-shot you). Be prepared to evade or avoid this damage if you see this coming.

There are already a lot of good replies in this thread (and they luckily don’t contradict like some people like to point out..)!

What I can add is this. After you’ve mastered your class it is also very important to know your enemy. What are their cooldowns, what hurts and what can you avoid.

I’ve recently duelled a few medi guards as both D/P and D/D. They both work, but D/P has an easier time with the blinds and access to stealth.

As a D/D you are at a disadvantage vs guardians. Since their blocks often remove your ability to stealth. A good medi guard can usually get me in a stalemate, where the first real mistake on either side will finish the fight.

My approach is to burst at the start, to make them ‘panic’ and use some cooldowns. Then revert to bow and have them charge me. Once I know their cooldowns are gone I go back in to pressure them. Problem is that their cooldowns are often shorter than your own. So you really have to keep track of them all!

Hopefully soon I can find the time to work my recordings into a video. There are a few nice medi guard duels in there.

skip to 6:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQJZsNh1IU

Your problem is that your build is horrible for guardians…

D/d will get eaten by aegis at key moments causing damage to come at you when you want to hide.

You have no condo removal on stealth. Those high dps burns will kill you…

Try running d/p with 6/6/3.

Coloxeus.3480:

skip to 6:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQJZsNh1IU

Thanks for that Coloxeus!

swinsk.6410:

Your problem is that your build is horrible for guardians…

D/d will get eaten by aegis at key moments causing damage to come at you when you want to hide.

You have no condo removal on stealth. Those high dps burns will kill you…

Try running d/p with 6/6/3.

Hummm, Swinsk, the problem i have with that build, is not having Feline Grace… i feel “naked” playing wihout that :/

Totally missed that the OP was running D/D and I agree that investing in SA as D/D would be best. Not only is the Condi cleanse on stealth great for clearing burns, but the blind on stealth is pretty huge for D/D since it doesn’t have blind on the weapon skill. This will relieve a lot of pressure and allow you to stomp with CnD.

That being said, D/P will have a much easier time and you may help your team the most by avoiding guardian fights unless you have a teammate around to do he bulk of the work. Remember that in SPvP you can easily win games by out rotating the other team, even if you score few kills. Sometimes it’s just better to let your enemy have the point and assist a team fight or decap another point than to get tied up in a long fight with a build that is better suited to win the 1v1.

Totally understand that Dahkeus, so i should drop 1 more trait in DA or CS to get 4 on SA and take condi clean and blind on stealth?

Also, i would like to ask all you, about this build i saw in a video from a very skilled girl thief…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAoal0Mp7plPx0J8PNRTBx9AmcA8+FtYGd9BA-TFCFABrpFAgHAQhq/clSQkU+Fz+DCcCASTHQAAEAP35O35O35czbezbezbWKAKGaB-w

She shows this build as a survival one, i guess is for 1xmany, but would be this build good as a 1v1 in general ?

pupi.2465:

Totally understand that Dahkeus, so i should drop 1 more trait in DA or CS to get 4 on SA and take condi clean and blind on stealth?

Also, i would like to ask all you, about this build i saw in a video from a very skilled girl thief…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAoal0Mp7plPx0J8PNRTBx9AmcA8+FtYGd9BA-TFCFABrpFAgHAQhq/clSQkU+Fz+DCcCASTHQAAEAP35O35O35czbezbezbWKAKGaB-w

She shows this build as a survival one, i guess is for 1xmany, but would be this build good as a 1v1 in general ?

That build looks old when Lyssa rune was still awesome.

You can still try it if you like, but I doubt it will have the same level of effectiveness.

pupi.2465:

Totally understand that Dahkeus, so i should drop 1 more trait in DA or CS to get 4 on SA and take condi clean and blind on stealth?

Also, i would like to ask all you, about this build i saw in a video from a very skilled girl thief…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAoal0Mp7plPx0J8PNRTBx9AmcA8+FtYGd9BA-TFCFABrpFAgHAQhq/clSQkU+Fz+DCcCASTHQAAEAP35O35O35czbezbezbWKAKGaB-w

She shows this build as a survival one, i guess is for 1xmany, but would be this build good as a 1v1 in general ?

Well, I’d primarily advocate for using the meta D/P Panic Strike build (found on MetaBattle.com), but if you are sure that you want to use D/D, then you will want at least 4 points in Shadow Arts to get both the cleanse and blind on stealth.

As for the build listed above, it looks like something that would work for WvW, but I rarely roam in WvW anymore and won’t speak much to that. Agreed that you should avoid Alyssa runes now though.

Just to clarify, are you looking to focus on SPvP or WvW or both?

Dahkeus.8243:

pupi.2465:

Totally understand that Dahkeus, so i should drop 1 more trait in DA or CS to get 4 on SA and take condi clean and blind on stealth?

Also, i would like to ask all you, about this build i saw in a video from a very skilled girl thief…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAoal0Mp7plPx0J8PNRTBx9AmcA8+FtYGd9BA-TFCFABrpFAgHAQhq/clSQkU+Fz+DCcCASTHQAAEAP35O35O35czbezbezbWKAKGaB-w

She shows this build as a survival one, i guess is for 1xmany, but would be this build good as a 1v1 in general ?

Well, I’d primarily advocate for using the meta D/P Panic Strike build (found on MetaBattle.com), but if you are sure that you want to use D/D, then you will want at least 4 points in Shadow Arts to get both the cleanse and blind on stealth.

As for the build listed above, it looks like something that would work for WvW, but I rarely roam in WvW anymore and won’t speak much to that. Agreed that you should avoid Alyssa runes now though.

Just to clarify, are you looking to focus on SPvP or WvW or both?

Both, i’m doing both with the same build.

Man, i tried, i tried using pistol, it just doesnt fit my playstyle… i love the burst and combination of infiltrator and steal with cd.

pupi.2465:

Dahkeus.8243:

pupi.2465:

Totally understand that Dahkeus, so i should drop 1 more trait in DA or CS to get 4 on SA and take condi clean and blind on stealth?

Also, i would like to ask all you, about this build i saw in a video from a very skilled girl thief…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAoal0Mp7plPx0J8PNRTBx9AmcA8+FtYGd9BA-TFCFABrpFAgHAQhq/clSQkU+Fz+DCcCASTHQAAEAP35O35O35czbezbezbWKAKGaB-w

She shows this build as a survival one, i guess is for 1xmany, but would be this build good as a 1v1 in general ?

Well, I’d primarily advocate for using the meta D/P Panic Strike build (found on MetaBattle.com), but if you are sure that you want to use D/D, then you will want at least 4 points in Shadow Arts to get both the cleanse and blind on stealth.

As for the build listed above, it looks like something that would work for WvW, but I rarely roam in WvW anymore and won’t speak much to that. Agreed that you should avoid Alyssa runes now though.

Just to clarify, are you looking to focus on SPvP or WvW or both?

Both, i’m doing both with the same build.

Man, i tried, i tried using pistol, it just doesnt fit my playstyle… i love the burst and combination of infiltrator and steal with cd.

Understandable. I went through a long period where I just enjoyed D/D over D/P and played well with it.

One tip I would give for D/D that applies to just about any fight is to practice hitting CnD from stealth right before stealth ends. This will allow you to approach from stealth and immediately CnD → backstab for extra burst. If you time it right, your enemy won’t see the CnD coming since the animation starts while you’re in stealth, but the hit lands after stealth drops so you don’t get revealed.

Yeah, i’ve been seeing this, and doing when i can, its a challenge do it on moving targets.

I came to reply to a certain debate in this thread, but it seems we’re well past that, so I’ll contribute some more to the current convo. Another tip I have against guardians is to watch the big skills. Medi guards are slow, and their gap closers are on long cool downs. It doesn’t matter if it’s a duel or roaming, using the terrain (or lack of) is a strong tactic. Most medi guards run two or three gap closers, and perhaps one pull and one snare. I’m thinking of the Gs sword/focus. Create distance when he uses a gap closer,
Or else he’ll get his burst off. Always bait out his cool downs before you attack him. If aegis is a problem, don’t go into meleeto remove it, use dagger 4 to remove it before using CnD +steal/infiltrator signet for a guaranteed stealth. Don’t rush the backstab either. Wait for a good moment, you don’t want to do it right as he gets a dodge off, but you don’t want to wait too long, or else his cool downs will be back up. Patience is just as importance as speed and efficiency, especially against guardians. Once he pops renewed focus (you’ll know this from his invulnerability), it means you’ve got him worried.

Another point that might be helpful is that as a thief, you have to be very unpredictable. Once you go into stealth, don’t wait the same amount of time everytim before you backstab; switch it up. You don’t have to use CnD every time you get close; sometimes, if you run him he might use a block or dodge, thinking you were going to stealth off of him. Forcing these skills puts you at a great advantage. Guardians tend to use their skills on cd, and they tend to have rotations. I play guardian often, medi gs sword/focus, my rotation goes something like leap in with gs3 and JI, use gs2 and gs4, use smite condition if I have a condition on me, use gs5 to pull enemy towards me, switch to s/f for sword 3 / focus blocking, and auto attacks until my great sword is off cool down. My greats word cool downs are usually off by the time I switch back, although the leap takes a little longer. If you can avoid the gs2 and sword 3, you’ve avoided all the heavy hitters.

Landing steal is very important. Cast it when he’s spinning or using Mighty Blow. Don’t stand in the GS symbol unless you’re sure you can trade efficiently. Kite when necessary and anticipate the Judge’s Intervention burst (e.g. if Guard is starting his spin way out of range he will probably port to you). Dodge Binding Blade or at least dodge the activation of it.

pupi.2465:

Coloxeus.3480:

skip to 6:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQJZsNh1IU

Thanks for that Coloxeus!

swinsk.6410:

Your problem is that your build is horrible for guardians…

D/d will get eaten by aegis at key moments causing damage to come at you when you want to hide.

You have no condo removal on stealth. Those high dps burns will kill you…

Try running d/p with 6/6/3.

Hummm, Swinsk, the problem i have with that build, is not having Feline Grace… i feel “naked” playing wihout that :/

I run signet of agility with this build for extra dodges when I need them…

Feline grace is good but you don’t need all the extra dodges using d/p. Sometimes you will tho and that’s what agility signet is for.

If you’re feeling ballsy, you can also play around with Vavume’s build. I like to do that from time to time, when visiting wvw. https://www.youtube.com/user/Vavume http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fZEQNAoYVlsMp0pdOx7J8PNRLRsdY3LX5a/EcA-T1RBABUcGEua/R5He6bW4QCAwDKgS1fMTJYAAEgb2mt5Nzm38m3sbezbez2sUARMGA-w
Its not really great for 1v1, but you would propably get better at positioning etc, and its really fun

Guardians in PvP are easy when you know what they’re going to do … and if you’re running Panic Strike build ( http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Dagger/Pistol ). Keep your blind up on them, when they start swinging around with their GS then just swap bow, use the evade shot to get out of the way and drop the aoe poison, and swap back to D/P to use shadow shot to teleport back to them and apply blind at the same time. You see shields around them? Gain some distance, there’s nothing you can do when they’re shielding. Hell, use Black Powder and stack stealth with Heartseeker ( D/P ) then use Basilisk Venom, wait for the shields to drop and backstab them and unleash the DPS. Pay close attention to their animations, you can easily disrupt them with your Pistol’s #4 ability and Mug. If they lay down a field of fire just evade out of it, swap bow and lay the poison AOE on them. They’ll probably try to pull you in with their sword, when they do, just use Shadow Step again. . . Rinse, repeat. Stealing from a Guard essentially gives your 4 interrupts. You have the Guardian’s interrupt, your Mug interrupt, Basilisk venom, and your Pistol’s interrupt. You just have to lock down on them and learn their rotation. Really comes down to properly keeping your distance because they want you to burn in those AOEs they drop. Judge’s Intervention is how they will usually close in on you instantaneously, so prep from that by having Shadow Step up. If it’s down, your bow’s #5 ability has a teleport at the cost of some initiative, but keeping them blinded, staying out of their fire and chain abilities is essential.