Guild Wars 2

So… Anet….are you ever going to give thieves survivability on par with the other classes in dungeons /high level pve content? I love your game, but honestly you do the worst job at balancing classes i’ve ever seen in any game, ever.

Wah!!!

I think our problem isn’t so much survivability as it is our overall lack of group utility. Why take a thief when other classes can keep themselves and their party alive at the same time?

BobbyT.7192:

Wah!!!

Go to Southsun Cove as a guardian, warrior, ranger, ect… and fight a karka. Than try it with a D/D thief and it’s pretty obvious who has the most difficult time / takes the longest.

FWB.1704:

BobbyT.7192:

Wah!!!

Go to Southsun Cove as a guardian, warrior, ranger, ect… and fight a karka. Than try it with a D/D thief and it’s pretty obvious who has the most difficult time / takes the longest.

D/D tears Karka to pieces.

Auesis.7301:

FWB.1704:

BobbyT.7192:

Wah!!!

Go to Southsun Cove as a guardian, warrior, ranger, ect… and fight a karka. Than try it with a D/D thief and it’s pretty obvious who has the most difficult time / takes the longest.

D/D tears Karka to pieces.

That’s nice and all, but this post is about team play in dungeons, not soloing in the open world. Problem is, thief doesn’t bring much to the table on the team play end. They’re pretty much a selfish class. Pretty much every other class but Ranger outmatches them in either DPS or team support or both.

Yes it is, I was simply responding to that comment.

Auesis.7301:

FWB.1704:

BobbyT.7192:

Wah!!!

Go to Southsun Cove as a guardian, warrior, ranger, ect… and fight a karka. Than try it with a D/D thief and it’s pretty obvious who has the most difficult time / takes the longest.

D/D tears Karka to pieces.

I agree, all you need to worry about is the channeled skill the karka does at the beginning. Dodge it or interrupt and you are fine. Also a little back dodging, then HS will make the karka attack you less.

As for why would anyone take a thief into a dungeon, provided you have at least a support guardian, the thief can do a good amount of damage. But this is for tough dungeons. Easy ones is fine!

I’m not very interested in having more survivability… I bet only builds with 0-0-30-30-0 will gain acces to that
With my 30-30-10-0-0 it would be better to know how strong they’ll nerf our DPS. I Don’t want to see another Heartseeker or Backstab nerf -.-

Dual.8953:

I think our problem isn’t so much survivability as it is our overall lack of group utility. Why take a thief when other classes can keep themselves and their party alive at the same time?

Why take anything other than 3 or 4 GS Warriors and a Guardian and/or Mesmer?

Again, not a class balance issue as much as a PvE design issue.

Edit: If you’re not speedrunning or anything, just want to be able to do dungeons decently, take a sword. Much better at PvE.

Make it a champion karka and the thief gets rolled over. This is the heart of the problem. Boons based classes get full benefits when fighting champions. Thieves get effectively no defense by putting conditions on champion mobs (except cripple). This makes thieves a dodge based class and we only get the same endurance bar as other classes.

Thieves can and should survive against groups of trash mobs.

But we have much better options to refill this bar^^

Whoever claims that thieves have not enought survivability in high end pve has not undetrstood high end pve in this game. It’s not about swallowing the damage with a huge bunch of hp and heal it back up, it’s all about damage prevention. Don#t get hit at all. And the thief excels in this part.

I do not see the problem whit thief in the team, I see a problem whit other classes do not know how to use that what thief can offer. First of all when warrior go down on the boss, thief trows shadow refuge over him to revive him, but the all mighty and powerful full zerk warrior as soon as thief starts reviving, hi starts attacking the boss from down state, as if hi can kill him from there.

In general most PvE players do not know to play in team, they just go to brut power and mass healing. Some things in dungeons can be done much easy, but from my experience most people will not listen. I like more mesmers, necro and engineers in my party then bunch of warriors and guardians. It is more of a psychical problem then a problem of the class it self.

FWB.1704:

BobbyT.7192:

Wah!!!

Go to Southsun Cove as a guardian, warrior, ranger, ect… and fight a karka. Than try it with a D/D thief and it’s pretty obvious who has the most difficult time / takes the longest.

You mean those small guys with the big telegraph move that could be dodge, blocked, reflected, interrupted, sure, my thief will smash them. Question, do you have trouble with ettins as well? How about them grubs?

Stooperdale.3560:

Make it a champion karka and the thief gets rolled over. This is the heart of the problem. Boons based classes get full benefits when fighting champions. Thieves get effectively no defense by putting conditions on champion mobs (except cripple). This makes thieves a dodge based class and we only get the same endurance bar as other classes.

Thieves can and should survive against groups of trash mobs.

I’m sorry but this is utter bullkitten… If this is true for you then it’s your fault cause you’re using a crappy build for PvE or you’re facetanking everything…

Hell, my current PvP/WvW build (currently what I’m also using for PvE because… it’s PvE, it’s easy) is dodge based and I can maintain near permanent dodging nearly indefinitely. Between flanking strike, dodge rolls, withdraw, roll for initiative, slightly over 50% uptime on Vigor and high initiative regen I’m dodging nearly every second and healing every 15 if need be. Between that, stunbreakers and boon ripping I can solo anything bellow a champion karka without an issue. Even a champion Karka I can probably solo, but it’s not worth the time it would take, and a mistake could be fatal (like any other class really – you’re not supposed to solo champions).

The small karkas are stupid easy for any class as they telegraph their one really dangerous move (the spinal barrage). The bigger Karkas also generally telegraph their most dangerous moves (like the male vet’s roll) and the most dangerous thing they have is their boons (particularly retaliation), which, as a thief, you’re more than equipped to strip instantly and without issues.

There’s a lot of complaining about Thieves in PvE, but honestly they’re in the exact same boat as every other non “holy trinity” class (warriors, guardians and mesmers). They’re perfectly good at it if you build them appropriately, but why bother when the PvE content specifically targets the things those 3 specific classes are best at?

The biggest issue most thieves have is that they’re stubborn and keep trying to use their PvP build in PvE. Your stereotypical “assassin” PvP role does not fit PvE. You have other tools. Adapt or perish.

ok, here’s what thieves have to offer in dungeons and fractals:
lots of damage
spammable aoe damage
unique group damage mitigation (blinding powder/shadow refuge, etc.)
plentiful dodges and stun breaks
great for running self or a group through trash mobs
great for kiting.

here’s what thieves do poorly in dungeons;
face tanking

currently thief is bugged in ascalonian catacombs, such that in p2 after the tranformation to ghost, we lose all our skills 6-9. that means no self heal. even without a self heal, I made it to the final boss and stayed alive till he was at 1/4 health….this is just because thieves are so good at avoiding damage.

in ac, there are several places where you have to take out graveling burrows that can get tricky. I find myself one of the most useful players on the team in these. I hit the burrows hard, with aoe, which also helps thin the gravelings, all while kiting and avoiding any damage. as I run by hodgins, I drop a shadow refuge on him, to lighten the load from the person trying to keep mobs off him….doing these things, I’ve finished tough battles even after party whipes.

yup, so aside from that bug I mentioned, thieves do just fine in dungeons.

in cof I did p3 for the first time with a pug that included another thief. the guy that was explaining what to do said it was the first time he’d been through one of the tough battles without a party whipe. this is because me and the other thief helped take out loads of mobs fast, and we helped revive people quick with stealth.

in fractals I do fine, even with no agony resistance.

Yeah thieves can dodge. Shadowstep is great and I love using it. I get along ok in dungeons (dungeon master and level 38 fractal yesterday). However it’s shortsighted to think that other classes don’t have good stuff they can do as well. Blocks can certainly be better than evades. Vigour and endurance regeneration are actually little/no better for thieves than other classes. There’s invulnerability, aegis, protection, stabilty, and so on. A lot of that scales better against champions than thief skills that are excellent against trash and in PvP.

Just to add about Hodgins in AC, as a thief, its super easy to protect him.

Spammable AOE that can hit enemies behind you as you run flatout dodging as necessary.

Shortbow makes it easy, and shadow refuge & dagger storm in case things get hairy.

Note: grenade engineers can do the same thing no problem.

Again. Thieves are fine.

Our damage mitigation is superior dodging and mobility rather than taking shots in the face.

If you have trouble vs karkas…go easy mode and S/P them. Start by interupting their spike spam with a pistol whip, then lay down a blackpowder and auto attack it to death. U don’t even need to dodge…

In dungeons, never be the first person to hit bosses. Aggro management is key. Let someone else take aggro and you just backstab chain him to death D/D. Range battles we have 3~4 extra dodges with SB3…shadowstep shadow return for further juking…We are king of mobility. Be proud of that.

people that say thieves are the worst dungeon/pve class makes the class looks bad in the eyes of other classes that visit these forums.. say that often enough and you’ll scare away any group that you’ll join just because of your class..
personally, i think thieves are fine..
even though they don’t tank or heal or spam boon, they trivialize hard hitting trash mobs, and deal good dmg to bosses. and revive people stealthily.

Sigh….

go play warrior, ranger (even), ele, mesmer, or guardian in a dungeon. Then play our thief. The differences should be blaring.

while thief does have some group utility the fact is as a class that support a team through buffs DPS and healing ti is the weakest (not up for debate). Boons, banners, shouts, healing, and tanking are all forms of support. Thieves excel at none of this. If a thief gets aggroed the range weapon sets are abysmal compared to other class. AoE dps the same.

What thief does have though is the capabilities to rez players relatively safely in some instances help players get through some relatively difficult content that requires skipping for time and the capability to provide blast finishers blindness, poison and weakness almost at will.

However none of this in some players minds will justify carrying a thief as that is exactly what the party does in most cases carry you.

Even if you did buff thief in PvE for PvE purposes the resulting WvW buff would bring more QQ than you could imagine.

TheGuy.3568:

However none of this in some players minds will justify carrying a thief as that is exactly what the party does in most cases carry you.

totally disagree, i alternate between a boon/support/healing mesmer and zerker thief in pve, and find both useful. I never get complaints from a party about carrying me…i do sometimes get kicked by zerker groups looking for a mesmer, before we even enter the dungeon…but you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things. Thieves can be as good in many situations as other classes, and just better in quite a few…but skill does enter into it.

As for a thief who cant dodge or kite or manage aggro….well take that trait to make you do more damage in your downed state, maybe you can contribute that way.

TheGuy.3568:

However none of this in some players minds will justify carrying a thief as that is exactly what the party does in most cases carry you.

Don’t know why they would, I never complain about carrying the team on my thief :p.

I will gladly take a thief anywhere if they slot shadow refuge or smokescreen when appropriate. Both of those can give players a lot breathing room right when they need it in a fight, which I think counts for a lot when trying to be a support.

bobross.5034:

TheGuy.3568:

However none of this in some players minds will justify carrying a thief as that is exactly what the party does in most cases carry you.

totally disagree, i alternate between a boon/support/healing mesmer and zerker thief in pve, and find both useful. I never get complaints from a party about carrying me…i do sometimes get kicked by zerker groups looking for a mesmer, before we even enter the dungeon…but you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things. Thieves can be as good in many situations as other classes, and just better in quite a few…but skill does enter into it.

As for a thief who cant dodge or kite or manage aggro….well take that trait to make you do more damage in your downed state, maybe you can contribute that way.

Don’t misquote me. I have never ever kicked a thief or any other class for being that class. However, I have carried teams. Fact is thief simply is not as useful as most other classes. Its not so much a debate as it is simply one of the facts of this games mechanics. The more classes you play and level the more you see it. So no I would never do the elitist bullkitten and kick thief, but I truly disgust lying about and over exaggerating the class whether it be good or bad. In most situation a thief is really being carried by the team as the thieves contribution simply is not the same. Even when they are contributing as much s they possibly can.

Lets cut the bs thief has a low ceiling on group support in dungeons almost every other class is higher.

BTW f your talking about CoF zerker parties some actively seek out a thief or 2. For that dungeon thief burst isn’t really an issue and group support is barely needed.

Also how do you totally disagree when you selectively quote? Did I say thieves are useless all the time or did I say “in some players minds”? You need to read what a wrote before you respond and stop looking for this to argue over. I never said “I” learn to read I am going to start emphasizing this. One of the reason players have a misconception of the thief and its roles is due to players such as yourself over emphasizing a thief’s usefulness and trying to compare it to builds more oriented for party support. I do not diverge from the facts and I would appreciate if you did the same. I do not appreciate players like you actively arguing against a buff for thieves in PvE when it is clearly needed.

bobross.5034:

TheGuy.3568:

However none of this in some players minds will justify carrying a thief as that is exactly what the party does in most cases carry you.

totally disagree, i alternate between a boon/support/healing mesmer and zerker thief in pve, and find both useful. I never get complaints from a party about carrying me…i do sometimes get kicked by zerker groups looking for a mesmer, before we even enter the dungeon…but you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things. Thieves can be as good in many situations as other classes, and just better in quite a few…but skill does enter into it.

As for a thief who cant dodge or kite or manage aggro….well take that trait to make you do more damage in your downed state, maybe you can contribute that way.

Don’t misquote me. I have never ever kicked a thief or any other class for being that class. However, I have carried teams. Fact is thief simply is not as useful as most other classes. Its not so much a debate as it is simply one of the facts of this games mechanics. The more classes you play and level the more you see it. So no I would never do the elitist bullkitten and kick thief, but I truly disgust lying about and over exaggerating the class whether it be good or bad. In most situation a thief is really being carried by the team as the thieves contribution simply is not the same. Even when they are contributing as much s they possibly can.

Lets cut the bs thief has a low ceiling on group support in dungeons almost every other class is higher.

BTW f your talking about CoF zerker parties some actively seek out a thief or 2. For that dungeon thief burst isn’t really an issue and group support is barely needed.

Also how do you totally disagree when you selectively quote? Did I say thieves are useless all the time or did I say “in some players minds”? You need to read what a wrote before you respond and stop looking for this to argue over. I never said “I” learn to read I am going to start emphasizing this as many of you have problems reading full paragraphs stating 2 sides of an argument. One of the reason players have a misconception of the thief and its roles is due to players such as yourself over emphasizing a thief’s usefulness and trying to compare it to builds more oriented for party support. I do not diverge from the facts and I would appreciate if you did the same. I do not appreciate players like you actively arguing against a buff for thieves in PvE when it is clearly needed.

Support-wise we aren’t exactly the greatest since our type of support doesn’t work against bosses. For trash mobs, it’s pretty good with blinds and weakness.
The spammable blast finisher, Smoke Screen and stealth are cool, but we cannot compete with boons, reflections and blocks.
As an active defense profession, i think we are pretty good on the survival department.

In my opinion, there are 2 ways to buff the thief. Overhaul our utilities so we can bring more support. Or buff our dmg, we have to make it up in 1 area, might as well be dmg

They can also adjust Defiant to be less effective vs. blinds and weakness, but that’s less of a thief buff rather than an overall boss nerf :P

I never feel useless in a group. I run smokebomb, smoke screen, and shadow refuge. I can provide 2 instances of group stealth, block boss projectiles, and most importantly I can spam a blast combo finisher, which when combined with water combo fields will AOE heal everyone. My group has 2 rangers in it that both have the healing spring, but it could easily be done with any combo field. Think outside the box. My group loves my support and I can dish out damage. (I’m specced 0/30/0/20/20)

Yeah, i already mentioned everything you did. We are still 2nd banana behind boon based support and reflects. Our dmg ain’t bad, but it ain’t top dog.

You are not taking what the other classes offer into consideration, what they bring is better than us except for stealth and spammable blast finisher. We are good against trash, but against bosses, our support is inferior.

Dual.8953:

Auesis.7301:

FWB.1704:

BobbyT.7192:

Wah!!!

Go to Southsun Cove as a guardian, warrior, ranger, ect… and fight a karka. Than try it with a D/D thief and it’s pretty obvious who has the most difficult time / takes the longest.

D/D tears Karka to pieces.

That’s nice and all, but this post is about team play in dungeons, not soloing in the open world. Problem is, thief doesn’t bring much to the table on the team play end. They’re pretty much a selfish class. Pretty much every other class but Ranger outmatches them in either DPS or team support or both.

Shadow’s Refuge rezes and Blinds.

DPS is only behind because are broken OP in PvE.

TheGuy.3568:

bobross.5034:

TheGuy.3568:

However none of this in some players minds will justify carrying a thief as that is exactly what the party does in most cases carry you.

totally disagree, i alternate between a boon/support/healing mesmer and zerker thief in pve, and find both useful. I never get complaints from a party about carrying me…i do sometimes get kicked by zerker groups looking for a mesmer, before we even enter the dungeon…but you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things. Thieves can be as good in many situations as other classes, and just better in quite a few…but skill does enter into it.

As for a thief who cant dodge or kite or manage aggro….well take that trait to make you do more damage in your downed state, maybe you can contribute that way.

Don’t misquote me. I have never ever kicked a thief or any other class for being that class. However, I have carried teams. Fact is thief simply is not as useful as most other classes. Its not so much a debate as it is simply one of the facts of this games mechanics. The more classes you play and level the more you see it. So no I would never do the elitist bullkitten and kick thief, but I truly disgust lying about and over exaggerating the class whether it be good or bad. In most situation a thief is really being carried by the team as the thieves contribution simply is not the same. Even when they are contributing as much s they possibly can.

Lets cut the bs thief has a low ceiling on group support in dungeons almost every other class is higher.

BTW f your talking about CoF zerker parties some actively seek out a thief or 2. For that dungeon thief burst isn’t really an issue and group support is barely needed.

Also how do you totally disagree when you selectively quote? Did I say thieves are useless all the time or did I say “in some players minds”? You need to read what a wrote before you respond and stop looking for this to argue over. I never said “I” learn to read I am going to start emphasizing this as many of you have problems reading full paragraphs stating 2 sides of an argument. One of the reason players have a misconception of the thief and its roles is due to players such as yourself over emphasizing a thief’s usefulness and trying to compare it to builds more oriented for party support. I do not diverge from the facts and I would appreciate if you did the same. I do not appreciate players like you actively arguing against a buff for thieves in PvE when it is clearly needed.

So angry, it really shows with the double post, :p. He never said that you kick thieves from groups, he just stated that it has happen to him, nor is he stating that you think thieves are useless, i have no idea where you get that.

Now it is fact that thief support is very limited in the way the a class like a guardian or a ele can supports. and there is no one actually saying a thief can support in the same manner like them.

• Buffs
• Condition removal
• Heals

These a what most people think of they they think of support, Thieves are able to do these things but clearly do not excel in them. But is that the end all be all of support? Should people expect a thief to have the same support capacity as a guardian or be buff to that point? Does the support a thief can bring not shine enough on it’s own merits?
Aoe Stealth; projectle block; blinds; blast finishers; these are how thieves can support. People can belittle these all they want, doesn’t mean they aren’t useful when they are needed. Do not take this as me saying you belittle them, just others will underestatimate it.
Same with tanking or holding aggro, thieves can do just fine going toe to toe with most mobs(bosses) out there, and the only time they can’t would not be a good idea for anyone anyways.
I have lvl 80 guardian, ranger, engineer, mesmer, with a thief as a main. they all play very differently, but i can be effective with all of them to the best of my ability. At the end of day, isn’t that what most people want? I don’t have an easier time just because i’m on my guardian, i have an easier time because people know the what the hell they are doing and know their class, no matter what class I happen to be on.

D/P 5th skill…… problem sloved

Dahkeus.8243:

Dual.8953:

Auesis.7301:

FWB.1704:

BobbyT.7192:

Wah!!!

Go to Southsun Cove as a guardian, warrior, ranger, ect… and fight a karka. Than try it with a D/D thief and it’s pretty obvious who has the most difficult time / takes the longest.

D/D tears Karka to pieces.

That’s nice and all, but this post is about team play in dungeons, not soloing in the open world. Problem is, thief doesn’t bring much to the table on the team play end. They’re pretty much a selfish class. Pretty much every other class but Ranger outmatches them in either DPS or team support or both.

Shadow’s Refuge rezes and Blinds.

DPS is only behind because are broken OP in PvE.

We also have Caltrops and blast finishers, unfortunately, none of present a distinct advantage over other classes in an intense situation or boss fights. Especially when we have classes that fart supportive boons at heals with better scaling healing power.
Why take my thief to a dungeon when I can have my HGH Engie can tank better, dish out more of every condition to everything remotely in front of him, and have the warrior in my party ask who brought the Elementalist?

BobbyT.7192:

TheGuy.3568:

bobross.5034:

TheGuy.3568:

However none of this in some players minds will justify carrying a thief as that is exactly what the party does in most cases carry you.

totally disagree, i alternate between a boon/support/healing mesmer and zerker thief in pve, and find both useful. I never get complaints from a party about carrying me…i do sometimes get kicked by zerker groups looking for a mesmer, before we even enter the dungeon…but you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things. Thieves can be as good in many situations as other classes, and just better in quite a few…but skill does enter into it.

As for a thief who cant dodge or kite or manage aggro….well take that trait to make you do more damage in your downed state, maybe you can contribute that way.

Don’t misquote me. I have never ever kicked a thief or any other class for being that class. However, I have carried teams. Fact is thief simply is not as useful as most other classes. Its not so much a debate as it is simply one of the facts of this games mechanics. The more classes you play and level the more you see it. So no I would never do the elitist bullkitten and kick thief, but I truly disgust lying about and over exaggerating the class whether it be good or bad. In most situation a thief is really being carried by the team as the thieves contribution simply is not the same. Even when they are contributing as much s they possibly can.

Lets cut the bs thief has a low ceiling on group support in dungeons almost every other class is higher.

BTW f your talking about CoF zerker parties some actively seek out a thief or 2. For that dungeon thief burst isn’t really an issue and group support is barely needed.

Also how do you totally disagree when you selectively quote? Did I say thieves are useless all the time or did I say “in some players minds”? You need to read what a wrote before you respond and stop looking for this to argue over. I never said “I” learn to read I am going to start emphasizing this as many of you have problems reading full paragraphs stating 2 sides of an argument. One of the reason players have a misconception of the thief and its roles is due to players such as yourself over emphasizing a thief’s usefulness and trying to compare it to builds more oriented for party support. I do not diverge from the facts and I would appreciate if you did the same. I do not appreciate players like you actively arguing against a buff for thieves in PvE when it is clearly needed.

So angry, it really shows with the double post, :p. He never said that you kick thieves from groups, he just stated that it has happen to him, nor is he stating that you think thieves are useless, i have no idea where you get that.

Why do people assume anger when writing in caps denotes that emotion? Learn to read, and I quote,“you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things.” meaning he applied the ideas I presented as the consensus of some players as my own. I simply corrected him as I am correcting you now.

If you read my first post I stated what support skills thief have (seriously people have to learn to read). The rest of this portion of your post is a long winded rehash of this so this is as far as I comment on it.

Also I have 5 80s and it doesn’t change the facts. Conversely to you I have the simplest time on ele and warrior. The fastest runs usually come with mesmer. Ranger and thief are the least likely classes I will do most strenuous content with. It would also inefficient to run dungeons with them all unless I needed max token.

No matter what way I look at it there are advantages to running some classes over the other. You have many toons so this should be apparent by now but blind is the least effective form of support in a boss fight. It’s not like I am lying or exaggerating. Its the truth so I would suggest you all get over it and ask for the buffs that are needed instead of trying to justify mediocrity. Thieves are somewhat ostracized in PvE for a reason. Most players are not stupid. they realize how limited a thieves roles are in PvE and their inherent survivability issues and the need to disengage from combat in many cases simply to survive.

Like I said before stop the selective reading and looking for something to argue over. It is kind of disgusting don’t you think?

I think that bolding entire paragraphs isn’t helping you present your case.

I think it all depends on the build, I use to be a D/P with 0/20/30/20/0 and I had no problem.

Dual.8953:

I think our problem isn’t so much survivability as it is our overall lack of group utility. Why take a thief when other classes can keep themselves and their party alive at the same time?

It’s a little of both, actually. It’s pretty annoying that I feel pigeon-holed into running Shortbow or P/x because I die when I try to melee. What Thieves really need that they are lacking is some form of threat reduction. Stealth used to be useful for this, but isn’t really anymore. I still don’t understand why they made that change.

On utility, I think it’d be cool if we had something that could provide bonus MF to a party.

TheGuy.3568:

Why do people assume anger when writing in caps denotes that emotion? Learn to read, and I quote,“you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things.” meaning he applied the ideas I presented as the consensus of some players as my own. I simply corrected him as I am correcting you now.

If you read my first post I stated what support skills thief have (seriously people have to learn to read). The rest of this portion of your post is a long winded rehash of this so this is as far as I comment on it.

Also I have 5 80s and it doesn’t change the facts. Conversely to you I have the simplest time on ele and warrior. The fastest runs usually come with mesmer. Ranger and thief are the least likely classes I will do most strenuous content with. It would also inefficient to run dungeons with them all unless I needed max token.

No matter what way I look at it there are advantages to running some classes over the other. You have many toons so this should be apparent by now but blind is the least effective form of support in a boss fight. It’s not like I am lying or exaggerating. Its the truth so I would suggest you all get over it and ask for the buffs that are needed instead of trying to justify mediocrity. Thieves are somewhat ostracized in PvE for a reason. Most players are not stupid. they realize how limited a thieves roles are in PvE and their inherent survivability issues and the need to disengage from combat in many cases simply to survive.

Like I said before stop the selective reading and looking for something to argue over. It is kind of disgusting don’t you think?

If you actually read that properly, you can easily tell he meant a general “you” not you personally, but this is not a grammar lesson. You’re also not doing caps, but bolding everything. Either way, people only really do that to display emotion, (generally speaking), so i’m sorry but I just find you an angry angry person because of it. If you really don’t people to think angry, then stop doing that, it’s not helping your argument any to begin with.

Blinds for bosses are the only kink in support for the thief, 10% is too low for something that a block can do 100%. That said, Thieves can spam more blinds then most can block. It really doesn’t take much to perma blind everything, and certainly not hard to do. Case in point, a thief with an off-hand pistol at maw makes the tentacles a joke.
Even with multi-hit attacks, a thief could negate a good chunk of that with one attack.
I do think blinds and most CCs need to be looked at for the defiant buff that bosses get. But i don’t thieves suffer that great because of it.

BobbyT.7192:

TheGuy.3568:

Why do people assume anger when writing in caps denotes that emotion? Learn to read, and I quote,“you’re only fueling their simpleminded approach to things.” meaning he applied the ideas I presented as the consensus of some players as my own. I simply corrected him as I am correcting you now.

If you read my first post I stated what support skills thief have (seriously people have to learn to read). The rest of this portion of your post is a long winded rehash of this so this is as far as I comment on it.

Also I have 5 80s and it doesn’t change the facts. Conversely to you I have the simplest time on ele and warrior. The fastest runs usually come with mesmer. Ranger and thief are the least likely classes I will do most strenuous content with. It would also inefficient to run dungeons with them all unless I needed max token.

No matter what way I look at it there are advantages to running some classes over the other. You have many toons so this should be apparent by now but blind is the least effective form of support in a boss fight. It’s not like I am lying or exaggerating. Its the truth so I would suggest you all get over it and ask for the buffs that are needed instead of trying to justify mediocrity. Thieves are somewhat ostracized in PvE for a reason. Most players are not stupid. they realize how limited a thieves roles are in PvE and their inherent survivability issues and the need to disengage from combat in many cases simply to survive.

Like I said before stop the selective reading and looking for something to argue over. It is kind of disgusting don’t you think?

If you actually read that properly, you can easily tell he meant a general “you” not you personally, but this is not a grammar lesson. You’re also not doing caps, but bolding everything. Either way, people only really do that to display emotion, (generally speaking), so i’m sorry but I just find you an angry angry person because of it. If you really don’t people to think angry, then stop doing that, it’s not helping your argument any to begin with.

Blinds for bosses are the only kink in support for the thief, 10% is too low for something that a block can do 100%. That said, Thieves can spam more blinds then most can block. It really doesn’t take much to perma blind everything, and certainly not hard to do. Case in point, a thief with an off-hand pistol at maw makes the tentacles a joke.
Even with multi-hit attacks, a thief could negate a good chunk of that with one attack.
I do think blinds and most CCs need to be looked at for the defiant buff that bosses get. But i don’t thieves suffer that great because of it.

I bold/highlight/emphasize what is most important in my arguments. Anyone with average intelligence would have realized that as it is the general use of bold text.

You can infer what ever emotions you like as I am not angry, and rarely get angry. However, that should be of no concern to you as it has nothing to do with our discussion (see red herring). Unless I stated something that was a lie or incorrect from a logical standpoint my argument is simply the truth of the matter. To me considering the number of classes you claimed to have played you seem delusional. Considering blind to be equal to the vast amount of buffs, 1200 range dps, melee capability, aoe and general survivability of other classes is laughable imho.

You always no matter conjugation when you are talking to some one directly refers to that person. the only cases this differs in the American English language is when you replace the word “One” with the word “You”. For example One should always learn to read before writing and You should learn to read before writing. Understand? I am not a psychic, telepathic, or a mentalist. I do not know if he was referring to the whole thief community without including me because his language was some how unclear. I followed the common rule and addressed him (which for some reason you felt a need to comment on), and I corrected him. The same way I am once again correcting you now.

I will bold this so you read it. If not please do not respond. I won’t continue a senseless argument where I use facts and you get caught up in BS you are trying to pass off as actually consequential to the topic of this discussion. Unless you have a good argument for why you should carry a a thief over another class (see opportunity cost) then I see no point in us having further correspondence.

Softspoken.2410:

I think that bolding entire paragraphs isn’t helping you present your case.

Read the first 2 sections of bolded text above. Supplemental information can be found here.

Hi TheGuy, I wasn’t trying to misquote you there, just selectively quoting the passage that I disagreed with. Technically, that’s a direct quote, not a misquote, which would be if I altered it in any way. You could argue that I took it out of context, thereby obscuring your intent, and if that’s the case, I apologize, I must have misinterpreted your original post.

I agreed with the rest, and since it was a longish post, I thought I’d make it easier to read and pick the specific part I wanted to quote. So yeah, my goal was readability not obfuscation.

I also don’t think I took it excessively out of context, you acknowledged that thieves have some things to contribute to groups, but in the end you concluded that thieves are carried by groups. I disagreed with the conclusion, so that’s what I argued against.

Anyway, don’t want to get off topic too much. It’s clear we disagree, and it really doesn’t matter much, because as you pointed out, thieves aren’t getting a pve buff any time soon.