Guild Wars 2

lLobo.7960:

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t care whether KillingFrenzy or any of you can be Civil … that list I showed shows that this game is supposed to reward/punish you for good/bad play. Backstabbing someone who is blocking/dodging/has_aegis/etc. is bad play and you should be punished for it by being revealed.

I can’t help but notice people completely glazing past the list …

From the January 2013 Patch Notes:

My first toon was a thief, and after that I made a guardian…
I couldnt understand why guardians would not get their VoJ removed when something blocked/dodged/invul the attack. Even on GS auto-attack you get a second chance to hit something with the third attack if you miss!!
While on my thief, if I popped a skill on the wrong time, it goes to waste…

Stealth should not be removed on passive blocks/invuls, it should not be removed on misses/evadeds… on active blocks, yes… but I think thats not possible to distinct atm…

Oh yea… if you want to get on it…
Make skills cost (lass than) half initiative when they miss/block/invul…
Seems all other classes I play get less than half a CD when they screw something…

if u press an actual skill 1-5 to block sure i might agree w. that….but the programming says that its the same so far. i hera ya

swinsk.6410:

Your thread is misleading.

The title should be “Thief getting blocked in stealth and not getting revealed”

Which is how the game has been since beta. I prefer it this way. As a warrior if you wait until like 2s after a thief stealth and then hit the block button, you will cause them to come our of stealth. Then dodge the cnd or cc them to get some hits in.

Whenever I play as a non thief, stealth has never been a problem for me.

L2p.

It’s not a l2 kitten ue, it’s an issue that thief is able to ignore some forms of counterplay because of a bad mechanic. Which is further supported by the fact that a large number of other limited-hit-count sigils/skills were changed to lose hits when they fail due to counterplay.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

swinsk.6410:

Your thread is misleading.

The title should be “Thief getting blocked in stealth and not getting revealed”

Which is how the game has been since beta. I prefer it this way. As a warrior if you wait until like 2s after a thief stealth and then hit the block button, you will cause them to come our of stealth. Then dodge the cnd or cc them to get some hits in.

Whenever I play as a non thief, stealth has never been a problem for me.

L2p.

It’s not a l2 kitten ue, it’s an issue that thief is able to ignore some forms of counterplay because of a bad mechanic. Which is further supported by the fact that a large number of other limited-hit-count sigils/skills were changed to lose hits when they fail due to counterplay.

Wasn’t that change actually to fix a bug of them fading on any cast regardless of there being a target around? I seem to recall a discussion about that back then.

They already faded on the block etc the patch just made sure it was only in all those circumstances it worked rather than complete misses as well… so they werent changed for that functionality specifically as they already had it.

thief is weak right now…fun to play….but not really a top kitten for pvp. mess with stealth and make it weaker(basically make thief defense weaker) and you destroy the thief….i highly doubt they will change this. if they do it will be on weapon skills blocks only i imagine.

Dasorine.1964:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

swinsk.6410:

Your thread is misleading.

The title should be “Thief getting blocked in stealth and not getting revealed”

Which is how the game has been since beta. I prefer it this way. As a warrior if you wait until like 2s after a thief stealth and then hit the block button, you will cause them to come our of stealth. Then dodge the cnd or cc them to get some hits in.

Whenever I play as a non thief, stealth has never been a problem for me.

L2p.

It’s not a l2 kitten ue, it’s an issue that thief is able to ignore some forms of counterplay because of a bad mechanic. Which is further supported by the fact that a large number of other limited-hit-count sigils/skills were changed to lose hits when they fail due to counterplay.

Wasn’t that change actually to fix a bug of them fading on any cast regardless of there being a target around? I seem to recall a discussion about that back then.

They already faded on the block etc the patch just made sure it was only in all those circumstances it worked rather than complete misses as well… so they werent changed for that functionality specifically as they already had it.

Even if that’s the case (I don’t really know) it still leaves a whole bunch of skills/traits/sigils that have limited use procs that are decreased by counterplay, when stealth, which falls into the exact same category, does not.

stealth….is not a condition….a buff…..or a stance or w.e……its in its own category bc it needs to be treated different. if its not thief gameplay will fall apart…literally……dmg goes 50% less…..defense 50% less (guessing) all bc of stealth….our offense and defense relies on it so heavily that it if were to take a big hit it would affect EVERYTHING…..not just one…..defense…offense….utilities…..heals……condi removal….everythign would change. its so interwoven that u really cant put it in the same category and downgrade it to be removed on a bunch of extra “examples” its fine the way it is…..u would be suprised the changes it makes
a
anet isnt stupid….they wanted to downgrade eles a lot…guardians too….the did this with mobility debuff (which hurt but they can still spam skills for hours and heal/reduce dmg) so instead of taking away more to make it on par with other characters they left a lil to probability (basically if a few thieves are running s/x they can remove buffs) but its not 100% SO …. wont ruin eles but can ruin their day…maybe.

Travlane… Stealth is a buff. Period.
All of those things that lose charges from counterplay enhance offensive, control, or survival capabilities. Which stealth also does. Everything else in the game is penalized for failure, especially when it’s because someone else forced them to fail.
But stealth is not.

block can happen at any moment by pressing of a button, and certain forms of block (aegis) has no duration limitation.
special strikes from stealth on other hand are limited by the short window of stealth.

a successful block on a special strike had already achieved its purpose. There’s no reason for it to reveal the attacker, who has an even smaller window to perform special strike again.

want to make it reveal, fine, make backstab unblockable.

Judging by your glory pvp rank , I would safely say that you are new to the game ( and thief class ) as this was in the game since beta.This is a feature not a bug

btw, blocks should put blocker who wasn’t in combat into combat

now we talking about a real bug

Brassnautilus.2941:

block can happen at any moment by pressing of a button, and certain forms of block (aegis) has no duration limitation.
special strikes from stealth on other hand are limited by the short window of stealth.

a successful block on a special strike had already achieved its purpose. There’s no reason for it to reveal the attacker, who has an even smaller window to perform special strike again.

want to make it reveal, fine, make backstab unblockable.

Yes, the block achieved its purpose, the avoidance of a heavy hit.
Wait no, it didn’t do that, because they can use it again half a second later, completely ignoring it.
Let’s look at every other non-auto attack in the game: If it is prevented due to counterplay, it still goes on cooldown (Burst skills are somewhat excepted since they only get short cooldown and don’t lose adrenaline, which also shouldn’t be the case). An action was taken to prevent the use of a dangerous ability, and the user paid the price for it being successfully countered.
But not stealth attacks.

Though every other class in the game doesn’t rely on any of these cooldown
based attacks as much as thief does on stealth and backstab.

If Aegis would reveal thieves, the player with aegis is immune against stealth attacks
for Aegis duration + 3/4 seconds reveal. That would force the thief to not attack at
all, and wait out stealth, and remove the aegis with one 700 dmg auto attack,
and restealth, and the player puts Aegis up again.
So basically, if a guardian would have 3 access to Aegis, this would stack
3 times of stealth durations before the thief is able to use his main damaging ability.
So immunity against stealth attacks for 14+ seconds (Rough number, included time to restealth, stealth outwaited/revealed etc.)

Counterplay? maybe. But it would leave the thief only to Auto-attack and Heartseeker(which ppl want a cd on as well o.O)

Currently, true counterplay is to use Aegis when the thief is about to CnD and that’s it.
So it’s unskillful play from the guardian side to put it up while the thief is in stealth, if not using it to avoid the backstab along with dodges and turning the front towards the thief or running away from the slow stealthed thief.

Ghostwolf.9863:

So it’s unskillful play from the guardian side to put it up while the thief is in stealth, if not using it to avoid the backstab along with dodges and turning the front towards the thief or running away from the slow stealthed thief.

And it’s unskillful play for the thief to just hit 1 twice to ignore the Aegis as well.
Why does Aegis protect against every single attack with one powerful hit that isn’t explicitly unblockable EXCEPT Backstab?
Also, if they’re D/P then they don’t actually have to land a hit in order to stealth with their weapon set.

Or how about another example? P/D stealths, you use SoA in order to avoid Sneak Attack. Except then they get to use it again anyway. Why is it better to avoid 4 out of 5 and get hit by 1 instead of avoiding the whole thing?

Incurafy.6329:

It has been like that since beta, it’s not a bug and it’s working as intended.

That being said, I do think that Aegis, invulns, blinds, blocks, and dodges should all cause revealed so that an enemy is rewarded for successfully countering a stealth attack.

Anything that the toon can feel should put us out of stealth (invulnerability and block, aegis). If we miss the attack the enemy won’t feel our presence and shouldn’t reveal.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Travlane… Stealth is a buff. Period.
All of those things that lose charges from counterplay enhance offensive, control, or survival capabilities. Which stealth also does. Everything else in the game is penalized for failure, especially when it’s because someone else forced them to fail.
But stealth is not.

buffs can be lengthened by traits….skills…..food….etc. not stealth. its in a category by itself…..kind of like stun…..or defiant…..or signet passives…..they can be viewed as buffs but really are just “buff like” ….as hard as it is to explain….. but even if u were 100% right….the fact that if u attack and get blocked and removes invis = stealth perma lock/half as usefull….affects thieves defense….offense….heals…and evasion and condition removal by making stealth half as usefull.

now we know that if you do a Cloack and Dagger attack and its blocked you DO NOT get invis right? well its contact….blocked…but contact right? so if we dont do dmg and still invis gets removed….that means regardless of blocks it counts as a hit…..that means ur saying that conditions should apply to enemies regardless of dmg……invis should be applied on CND regardless of blocked or not……. well it cant be both ways…… maybe its better left as it is? :P

EDIT: also if u press 1 twice in a row its almost 2 seconds of time. u would have to use BS the first second after you go invis incase you m iss to use it again….super hard if osmebody is moving…..so you have 2 secs instead of 3 to land a bs WHILE they are moving……cmon….its a L2 kitten ue……BS/CND barely hit at a 50% success rate….im willing to bet its more around 40 % or so.

how can you block an attack you dont see coming

Thiefs are op. I asked one if he still had fun with the class and he answered yes!
That’s not fair and most likly op!

Travlane.5948:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Travlane… Stealth is a buff. Period.
All of those things that lose charges from counterplay enhance offensive, control, or survival capabilities. Which stealth also does. Everything else in the game is penalized for failure, especially when it’s because someone else forced them to fail.
But stealth is not.

buffs can be lengthened by traits….skills…..food….etc. not stealth. its in a category by itself…..kind of like stun…..or defiant…..or signet passives…..they can be viewed as buffs but really are just “buff like” ….as hard as it is to explain….. but even if u were 100% right….the fact that if u attack and get blocked and removes invis = stealth perma lock/half as usefull….affects thieves defense….offense….heals…and evasion and condition removal by making stealth half as usefull.

now we know that if you do a Cloack and Dagger attack and its blocked you DO NOT get invis right? well its contact….blocked…but contact right? so if we dont do dmg and still invis gets removed….that means regardless of blocks it counts as a hit…..that means ur saying that conditions should apply to enemies regardless of dmg……invis should be applied on CND regardless of blocked or not……. well it cant be both ways…… maybe its better left as it is? :P

EDIT: also if u press 1 twice in a row its almost 2 seconds of time. u would have to use BS the first second after you go invis incase you m iss to use it again….super hard if osmebody is moving…..so you have 2 secs instead of 3 to land a bs WHILE they are moving……cmon….its a L2 kitten ue……BS/CND barely hit at a 50% success rate….im willing to bet its more around 40 % or so.

You’re describing a boon, which is a buff of a specific category. Signet bonuses are also buffs because they improve your character’s capabilities beyond basic levels. So are food, sigil stacks, things like distortion, venoms, and yes, stealth.
Also of note is that stealth is by far the most modular buff in the game, capable of much more customization than anything else, with damage, healing, condition removal, initiative gain, and movement speed all possible attachments to it. It’s almost as if there’s an entire trait line dedicated to enhancing stealth.

And it’s interesting you bring up CnD not doing anything if it’s blocked. You lose the initiative cost of it when it fails. It’s almost as if it’s held to a standard where using it wrong results in a penalty, wherein you lose the same thing whether or not it works correctly. Like, say, if someone uses a block, a dodge, or a blind, and you fire it through it. How very interesting.

how twisted….“you lose the intiative if you fail CND?” lol u lose the initiative as its activated….not because it failed….and its the same if it lands. and its the difference in definition of buff. i guess everything that is"positive" in nature towards helping a character is a buff rather than a trait or background “boost” so lets divide it into 2 kinds of buffs……1 kind of buff can be removed/shortened/changed by outside interferenance……the other cannot be changed …dropped…or shortened by outside (enemy) interference. stealth….well it goes in with the ones that cant be. and like i said…..if hitting a block/invulnerability/aegis counts as a hit….CND would go off and give invis…..but bc it doesnt……… ew dont lose invis on hitting the same. It would ruin a thieves offense…defense…and heals/condi removal if made to be weak and easily affected. there are ways of removing thieves from stealth…..aegis/blocks is not one of them. stealth is affected by damage…..direct dmg…not misses or blocks….but by a knife going into an enemy ….on poking a shield. just the way it is. if it were to change it so bad players could beat even the best thieves….then even uncatchable trait (since ur not a thief ill explain that to u….it gives caltrops on dodges) would remove invis….making stealth builds impossible…same with traps….and etc . btw all classes have to pay something for activating skills ….cooldowns…..intiatitive….adrenaline….. something… despite failing or connecting.

Travlane.5948:

how twisted….“you lose the intiative if you fail CND?” lol u lose the initiative as its activated….not because it failed….and its the same if it lands. and its the difference in definition of buff. i guess everything that is"positive" in nature towards helping a character is a buff rather than a trait or background “boost” so lets divide it into 2 kinds of buffs……1 kind of buff can be removed/shortened/changed by outside interferenance……the other cannot be changed …dropped…or shortened by outside (enemy) interference. stealth….well it goes in with the ones that cant be. and like i said…..if hitting a block/invulnerability/aegis counts as a hit….CND would go off and give invis…..but bc it doesnt……… ew dont lose invis on hitting the same. It would ruin a thieves offense…defense…and heals/condi removal if made to be weak and easily affected. there are ways of removing thieves from stealth…..aegis/blocks is not one of them. stealth is affected by damage…..direct dmg…not misses or blocks….but by a knife going into an enemy ….on poking a shield. just the way it is. if it were to change it so bad players could beat even the best thieves….then even uncatchable trait (since ur not a thief ill explain that to u….it gives caltrops on dodges) would remove invis….making stealth builds impossible…same with traps….and etc . btw all classes have to pay something for activating skills ….cooldowns…..intiatitive….adrenaline….. something… despite failing or connecting.

If you can’t see the resemblance between losing initiative/going on cooldown regardless of success and losing stealth with a stealth attack regardless of success there’s absolutely no use talking with you.
Oh and you don’t get stealth off a block because you FAILED. You should similarly lose stealth when you fail with a stealth attack because you FAILED.

you dont understand the basics of thief. ask another they will tell you the same. DMG is what gives stealth on CND….and DMG is what removes stealth on BS. NOT blocking. initiative is a prerequisite cost for activating skills 2-5 …..where as a cooldown is a pos activation cost for using a skill that doesnt require anything. despite the skill causing dmg or not it still had a requisite to use. otherwise….there would be a refund for successfully connecting on a hit. and that would just be so silly :P

Travlane.5948:

you dont understand the basics of thief. ask another they will tell you the same. DMG is what gives stealth on CND….and DMG is what removes stealth on BS. NOT blocking. initiative is a prerequisite cost for activating skills 2-5 …..where as a cooldown is a pos activation cost for using a skill that doesnt require anything. despite the skill causing dmg or not it still had a requisite to use. otherwise….there would be a refund for successfully connecting on a hit. and that would just be so silly :P

I understand how it works perfectly fine. The argument is that it SHOULDN’T work like that. Every powerful skill in the game is penalized for counterplay by not being usable again (or costing initiative for thief) except for stealth attacks. This IS the case, but it SHOULD NOT be. And yet you’re apparently incapable of realizing that just as initiative is the cost of other thief weapon skills, stealth is the cost of stealth attacks. Except that it’s only lost if it succeeds, unlike everything else in the game.

The thing is, backstab is the only powerful skill a backstab build has.
Warrior for instance can clunk out 3 times more damage by using all
of his weapon skills then what a thief can do with 1 backstab and heartseeker spam to 0 iniatiative.

Edit: was refering to GS warriors.

so ur arguing that the game designers are idiots and made a mistake? or are you arguing that they didnt realize they did this or are you arguing that it shouldnt be this way even tho its obviously intended to be? im glad that you finally agree that intiatitive is a cost to use attacks 2-5….however stealth isnt a cost. its a qualifying condition that activates the ability to use stealth attacks. and as stealth reads you dont lose it unless you deal a successful hit. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth read this it may help. its this way bc you realize if u drop stealth on any attack …excluding wiffs….. then you weaking the ENTIRE thief by around 40% (estimating but def not far off) …..not just the backstab. granted your idea makes CnD stronger and tbh you can abuse CND by chaining it ….blocks….blind …invulnerability would thenactivate stealth and making it much harder…imagine that….just 5k dmg sometims 6k dmg…ill just chain it all day….i dont know bc of blinds….blocks etc. they made it this way bc its more balanced. its why they made stealth its own category….not just a regular/general buff that is different on different skills. every invis gives 3 seconds….its very generic and not skill specific. SR = 3 secs invis each pulse. kinda like the huge AOE blind that necros have per pulse. blinding powder 3 secs. CND 3 secs. HIS 3 secs. combo finisher 3 secs. etc etc. where as OTHER buffs are usually all different times depending on class….skill….weapon etc.

Ghostwolf.9863:

The thing is, backstab is the only powerful skill a backstab build has.
Warrior for instance can clunk out 3 times more damage by using all
of his weapon skills then what a thief can do with 1 backstab and heartseeker spam to 0 iniatiative.

Edit: was refering to GS warriors.

yeah and most NON thieves dont realize a GOOD thief hits BS about 50% of the time max.same with CND. an average thief maybe 40% and supar to bad much less. its not easy….dodges…..blinds….blocks …invul etc….running in different directions and etc. but to make it this much weaker by revealing in on non dmg attacks…. would ruin thieves to a point that nobody would play

Travlane.5948:

so ur arguing that the game designers are idiots and made a mistake? or are you arguing that they didnt realize they did this or are you arguing that it shouldnt be this way even tho its obviously intended to be? im glad that you finally agree that intiatitive is a cost to use attacks 2-5….however stealth isnt a cost. its a qualifying condition that activates the ability to use stealth attacks. and as stealth reads you dont lose it unless you deal a successful hit. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth read this it may help. its this way bc you realize if u drop stealth on any attack …excluding wiffs….. then you weaking the ENTIRE thief by around 40% (estimating but def not far off) …..not just the backstab. granted your idea makes CnD stronger and tbh you can abuse CND by chaining it ….blocks….blind …invulnerability would thenactivate stealth and making it much harder…imagine that….just 5k dmg sometims 6k dmg…ill just chain it all day….i dont know bc of blinds….blocks etc. they made it this way bc its more balanced. its why they made stealth its own category….not just a regular/general buff that is different on different skills. every invis gives 3 seconds….its very generic and not skill specific. SR = 3 secs invis each pulse. kinda like the huge AOE blind that necros have per pulse. blinding powder 3 secs. CND 3 secs. HIS 3 secs. combo finisher 3 secs. etc etc. where as OTHER buffs are usually all different times depending on class….skill….weapon etc.

Why are you constantly explaining to me how stealth works? I understand that.
Stealth is the requirement and cost of a stealth attack. But unlike everything else in the game, it only pays that cost on success. If you want to talk about “qualifying conditions” then let’s bring up cooldowns and initiative. The “qualifying condition” to use a skill is for it to not be on cooldown, or for you to have enough initiative, which is then paid when it is used. There, you now have it in the same category as stealth attacks. Congratulations. Oh but there’s still the issue of everything else pays the cost from their “qualifying condition” regardless of success. Every other melee or ground-target ability requires the person to learn how to aim their attack or pay the price. They all learned to play. Why do you think thieves shouldn’t have to learn to aim?

And if all these doomsday scenarios you present are true, then maybe they should make thief less reliant on a completely broken mechanic and let them stand without the crutch (while throwing said crutch into a fire)?

stealth attack has no cost…….this is why i keep explaining :P there is no cost upon a successful hit. there is a resulting “condition” the resulting condition of a successful stealth attack is “revealed” ……stealth attacks have no cost….just a qualifying state to activate/attack. attack skills 2-5 have a cost (initiative) because it is depleted and used.

on the 2nd part of your message i totally agree with you! for once….lol we SHOULDNT be so reliant on invis….but our healing…defense ….attacks….and condi removal are all connected to it….making any build that doesnt use it….well …just not as good or overall balanced. id rather be able to do a dodge..flip evade pow kick em in the jaw kinda build sometimes…..but not really an option bc base dmg is low …so without hidden killer or gonig GC….its really hard to put out that dmg that can kill and be evasive at same time. if anet upped base dmg like they suggested and maybe gave us 20% more armor (i mean we are medium armored right? yet we get hit harder than light armor classes) and maybe like a 10% boost in HP it would be amazing and help make thieves stealth….""nerfable"" ….this is coming from a thief player ;P

many thieves would be ok , including me, not playing with any invis….however i doubt we will get compensated for it if it is taken/nerfed. that is the problem. 20 nerfs and we finally just got a small boost….that being the boon steals on a build that is mediocre and not played much.

Stealth attacks most definitely have a cost. They require a specific condition be met (being in stealth), and upon being used (properly) that condition (stealth) is lost as a result.
Every other non-auto attack in the game: They require a specific condition be met (being off cooldown or having enough initiative) and upon being used (properly or not) that condition is lost (it is now on cooldown, or initiative is lost). The only difference in these 2 statements is that every other attack in the game loses the requirement for usage (or reduces initiative) regardless of success or failure.

i think we have different definitions of what a cost/payment is and what a prerequisite is.
Now i think we both agree for stealth attacks to happen the thief needs to enter stealth right? and for lets say dancing dagger 4 initiative must paid/drained/taken or depleted/given for it to even be thrown right? so which of the 2 definitions would u pair with the stealth “condition” and which would u pair with the quantifiable initiative depletion?

pre·req·ui·site
/pr??rekw?z?t/
Noun
A thing required as a prior condition for something else to happen.
Adjective
Required as a prior condition.
Synonyms
noun. precondition – premise
adjective. necessary – requisite – needful

cost
Verb
(of an object or an action) Require the payment of (a specified sum of money) before it can be acquired or done.
Noun
An amount that has to be paid or spent to buy or obtain something.
Synonyms
verb. be
noun. price – charge – expense – value – worth – expenditure

So then you don’t disagree with the sentence I constructed for both of them where the only difference between them is that one only penalizes you when you succeed, the rest penalize you regardless.
Also, for the definitions, note that both include “require(d)”. A cost has the prerequisite of having enough to pay for it beforehand.

The only way stealth isn’t a “cost” of a stealth attack is if it didn’t remove it no matter what. However, if a stealth attack is successful, it is GUARANTEED to remove stealth. The way you define it, paying a lawyer that only charges you their fee if your side wins isn’t a “cost”, while paying one that charges you regardless is.

I don’t get it – Stealth is both the prerequisite and cost for Backstab, and Initiative is the prerequisite and cost for CnD:

Backstab
Prerequisite: Stealth – you need stealth to use Backstab
Cost: Stealth – if you use Backstab, Stealth goes away

Non stealth Thief skill
Prerequisite: Initiative – You need initiative to use most abilities
Cost: Initiative – even if your attack gets blocked or dodged, it still uses initiative

Any other skill on any other class
Prerequisite: Cooldown – the ability needs to be off cooldown.
Cost: Cooldown – Even if you miss or get blocked, the ability goes on cooldown.

While I think this kind of balancing by comparing individual abilities doesn’t make sense (E.g. Decoy > Blinding Powder as a standalone ability, but obviously the Thief has more stealth in total), you can’t just say that one is a prerequisite and the other is a cost and beat around the bush.

Edit: Perma stealth builds also shut down condition builds very hard since cleansing that stack of 19 bleeds is never more than a quick stealth away, yet everyone says “oh just get the Thief to waste his stealth before applying conditions”. Guess what, you can do the same thing to a Guardian as well, and aegis isn’t exactly the easiest buff to keep up.

Definitely agree that the current design is a huge crutch to thieves with a lower skill level that simply spams. The game should encourage more counter play. This will give thieves a higher skill cap as good ones need to be masters of timing. I mean honestly, it’s not even hard to break the aegis before you proceed.

Escthiil.3210:

Definitely agree that the current design is a huge crutch to thieves with a lower skill level that simply spams. The game should encourage more counter play. This will give thieves a higher skill cap as good ones need to be masters of timing. I mean honestly, it’s not even hard to break the aegis before you proceed.

And it is not even hard to apply aegis when the thief stealths.

And to break it and keep the same survival level, the thief is forced
to outwait stealth, break aegis and restealth.

And with 3 possible ways of activating aegis, this creates a
gap of 12+ seconds before the thief is able to perform any decent damage,
against the class that takes least damage as it is.

How does one guard against a dagger being plunged into his back with a shield he’s holding in front of him? When block is 180 degree front arc only, we’ll talk – until then, its the way it is for a reason.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So then you don’t disagree with the sentence I constructed for both of them where the only difference between them is that one only penalizes you when you succeed, the rest penalize you regardless.
Also, for the definitions, note that both include “require(d)”. A cost has the prerequisite of having enough to pay for it beforehand.

The only way stealth isn’t a “cost” of a stealth attack is if it didn’t remove it no matter what. However, if a stealth attack is successful, it is GUARANTEED to remove stealth. The way you define it, paying a lawyer that only charges you their fee if your side wins isn’t a “cost”, while paying one that charges you regardless is.

yes the both have a prereq….but only 1 has a cost in addition to the required condition. and on the lawyer comment…it depends what ur paying for….are you payig for his services or paying for a “successful” case….all depends on how you define it. as stealth is defined as successful dmg. its in a area of its own…placed there purposefully by devs. its not in any bug reports or flawed gameplay problems. its intentional. so im only trying to explain perhaps “why” anet did it that way.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Escthiil.3210:

Definitely agree that the current design is a huge crutch to thieves with a lower skill level that simply spams. The game should encourage more counter play. This will give thieves a higher skill cap as good ones need to be masters of timing. I mean honestly, it’s not even hard to break the aegis before you proceed.

And it is not even hard to apply aegis when the thief stealths.

And to break it and keep the same survival level, the thief is forced
to outwait stealth, break aegis and restealth.

And with 3 possible ways of activating aegis, this creates a
gap of 12+ seconds before the thief is able to perform any decent damage,
against the class that takes least damage as it is.

see this is exactly it…one small change “snowballs” into a plethora of other problems.

evilapprentice.6379:

How does one guard against a dagger being plunged into his back with a shield he’s holding in front of him? When block is 180 degree front arc only, we’ll talk – until then, its the way it is for a reason.

Yeah, how can thieves defy the laws of physics and go invisible in bright sunlight?

Oh wait, it’s a videogame.

You think that’s bad, take a look at Blinding Powder. Despite that it’s not a stun breaker, and despite that stun and daze are suppose to prevent the person from casting anything other than stun breakers, you can still use it.

Why?

Because of 0 cast time. Even skills that don’t break stun can still be used if they have 0 cast times. Every single one of the active stealth skills should have a cast time. The only stealth abilities that should function while stunned or dazed are the passive ones. Like when your health reaches a certain %.

I have a counter for you, thief should not be blockable in stealth because after all it is a… wait for it… wait for iiiiiiiiiiit… SNEAK ATTACK!

Lol.

LunarNacht.8913:

Thiefs are op. I asked one if he still had fun with the class and he answered yes!
That’s not fair and most likly op!

So … It’s not fair to have fun with your class? Seems legit…

KillingFrenzy.7315:

found a bug that needs to be addressed and this is coming from a thief so you others thieves I don’t want to hear no QQing when a guardian has his aegis block thief can attack in stealth removed the aegis block and still not be unstealthed this also applies to all other block / invlun skills if the damage is not there stealth is not removed I think this should be fixed heres proof…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joon-V9XwF0

What you probablly dont know is how it looks from guardian eyes. He gets a warning typed in huge letters “BLOCKED”. So guardian thinks " Hmm there is noone around hiting me and i just blocked something, must be thief stabbing me!" Then he has 2 options:
a) Counter that by dodging, turning around and lowering backstab damage or using any damage negating skills.
b) dont pay attention and probablly die.

HUGE BUG !

Omg… a guard complaining about a thief… are you even serious right now…

It’s far too easy for a guard to pop a block and totally counter a thief’s stealth attack if it revealed them. It’s far too easy for other classes to use invuln in that way as well.

You can block c&d and they won’t go into stealth. You can CC/position so the d/p thief doesn’t enter stealth. Before they enter stealth is when you have a chance to shut down their combo (and drain their ini… which will probably kill them)… you just can’t do it afterwards.

The hit messages looked really weird. There was a blocked shield, then three more messages saying “miss” stacked on each other.
If you miss a backstab, you get to try again since you didn’t hit anything.
If your backstab is hits but its damage is negated, you drop out of stealth. I’ve had the latter happen to me via peeps in wvw who know how to play.
In lobby b4 tpvp match can be weird sometimes, did this happen during actual gameplay?

we need more nerfs plz, 10x

to be fair how can you block an attack that you cant see coming towards especially towards your back it just dosn’t make allot of sense if you ask me the attack should be unblockable. I mean unless someone has a shield up in front of them and you hit the shield yeah it makes sence that a theif should get revealed but if its just a guard who has a buff that automatically blocks things for him it would be a bit overpowered to have his buffs automatically block a thiefs backstab and reveal the thief with out any really dodge or shield whatsoever the Guardian would just have to stand there and wait

Demented Lemur.7861:

to be fair how can you block an attack that you cant see coming towards especially towards your back it just dosn’t make allot of sense if you ask me the attack should be unblockable. I mean unless someone has a shield up in front of them and you hit the shield yeah it makes sence that a theif should get revealed but if its just a guard who has a buff that automatically blocks things for him it would be a bit overpowered to have his buffs automatically block a thiefs backstab and reveal the thief with out any really dodge or shield whatsoever the Guardian would just have to stand there and wait

u make a good point…..if you are behind an enemy for backstab…and the backstab dmg would go off (regardless of blocks) then it should be an unblockable attack….very good point and i agree. but if u hit the front of somebody which still hurts and is blocked…that should remove invis….but only if the rear is unblockable….makes perfect sense and gives both sides of this argument some point of middle compromise right? well said

As already pointed out, the Guardian as far fewer sources of Aegis than a thief does stealth … especially since C&D has no cooldown (yes, you’re limited by initiative, but good thieves are great at managing this).

I do not see why a thief who is stealthed can’t look at their foe and see that they have aegis, are blocking, are dodging, etc. and instead of blowing backstab and suffering revealed, they instead let stealth wear off, poke once with auto to remove the aegis, then continue on without suffering revealed and the aegis is off.

That large list of skills that count even when you miss, are blocked, etc. spans several types of skills. I do not see how backstabbing someone from stealth and removing their block doesn’t warrant something happening to the thief as well.

Why should the thief not be punished for bad play like other classes? You’re stealthed. You have the time to check boons like the rest of us … and adapt like the rest of us.

Heck, Mesmer clones/illusions skills still go on cooldown even when wasted and those are not just weapon skills but attached to the Mesmer’s class mechanic (shatters) as well. The cooldown is also much longer than the 3s a thief is revealed for.

Given it’s like that for Mesmers and every other non-thief class and the January patch that focused on stuff like this, I can’t see how you can honestly argue that a thief can make this mistake without any consequences … except if you admit you are trying to keep an unfair advantage.

Fix is simple, make sneak attacks unblockable. They’re already adding unblockable attacks in game to counter bunkers, adding stealth attacks to this list would perfectly fit with that trend. Oh but that’s not the answer you were looking for?

Sebrent.3625:

As already pointed out, the Guardian as far fewer sources of Aegis than a thief does stealth … especially since C&D has no cooldown (yes, you’re limited by initiative, but good thieves are great at managing this).

I do not see why a thief who is stealthed can’t look at their foe and see that they have aegis, are blocking, are dodging, etc. and instead of blowing backstab and suffering revealed, they instead let stealth wear off, poke once with auto to remove the aegis, then continue on without suffering revealed and the aegis is off.

That large list of skills that count even when you miss, are blocked, etc. spans several types of skills. I do not see how backstabbing someone from stealth and removing their block doesn’t warrant something happening to the thief as well.

Why should the thief not be punished for bad play like other classes? You’re stealthed. You have the time to check boons like the rest of us … and adapt like the rest of us.

Heck, Mesmer clones/illusions skills still go on cooldown even when wasted and those are not just weapon skills but attached to the Mesmer’s class mechanic (shatters) as well. The cooldown is also much longer than the 3s a thief is revealed for.

Given it’s like that for Mesmers and every other non-thief class and the January patch that focused on stuff like this, I can’t see how you can honestly argue that a thief can make this mistake without any consequences … except if you admit you are trying to keep an unfair advantage.

the thief is punished….lol….but as to see your post….u are obviously not a thief. go play one for 3 weeks and come back. anyway to continue with explanation…. thieves are punished with the 2nd lowest hp total…..the squishiest of all classes….low defense….. no blocks…..no protection…..no invulnerability…. extremely limited boon access/application….pretty much 1 weaponset (as you switch to the 2nd you usually have no init to use skills)…….only 3or4 usable utilities (in 95% of all builds)…….mediocre burst/sustained dmg (3rd place behind warrior and mesmer) and only 1 extra way of healing outside of utility 6. so yes…thieves are punished….they should have some kind of “pro” to playing…not just a long list of “cons”. yes we have stealth…but i hardly think that saves grace of all the cons listed….. you can look at backstab alone and say its OP right? i mean does double dmg from behind for 0 intiative……however there are conditions …implications…and drawbacks to having that….you ahve to look at the larger picture and not just pinpoint one small thing and say its OP or broken. just my 2 cents