Guild Wars 2

Conditions, even ones that do damage do not account as direct attacks.

If they did then Thief would be ruined, because if we had a stack of bleed on you for example, we could never stealth because we would be revealed each tick.

It does not make sense either.

Okamakiri.8746:

Fix is simple, make sneak attacks unblockable. They’re already adding unblockable attacks in game to counter bunkers, adding stealth attacks to this list would perfectly fit with that trend. Oh but that’s not the answer you were looking for?

i def have to agree here as well. think about it….why do u think anet decided to NOT make Vitality Toughness Healing armor? any venturing a guess? they didnt want the trolls just going out and being annoying/unkillable…..like in gw1 where they had mo/a or a/mo or mo/me and just troll people in pvp etc. same with bunkers…they really tried to stray from that role in gw2.

If you made stealth attacks unblockable, then every 3+ seconds, thief would get a high damage hit on players. How exactly is that “fair” ?

Thief can get regen on stealth, health on initiative use, and rejuv while stealthed. They are only “squishy” when played as glass cannons … like with other classes.

When I run around in Soldier’s on my thief, I’m far from glassy. Especially with 30 in Shadow Arts.

You can list all the “negatives” of any class and ignore the “positives”. That does not warrant the class breaking from the conventions of the game that are adhered to by all other classes.

We’re talking about the difference in being unstealthed for 3 seconds and not. The difference in a person using a defense intended to stop an attack and it actually working, or not.

Currently, the thief is not being unstealthed and the block is not working as the thief merely hits 1 again and the target is still backstabbed and the block is wasted.

Sebrent.3625:

As already pointed out, the Guardian as far fewer sources of Aegis than a thief does stealth … especially since C&D has no cooldown (yes, you’re limited by initiative, but good thieves are great at managing this).

I do not see why a thief who is stealthed can’t look at their foe and see that they have aegis, are blocking, are dodging, etc. and instead of blowing backstab and suffering revealed, they instead let stealth wear off, poke once with auto to remove the aegis, then continue on without suffering revealed and the aegis is off.

That large list of skills that count even when you miss, are blocked, etc. spans several types of skills. I do not see how backstabbing someone from stealth and removing their block doesn’t warrant something happening to the thief as well.

Why should the thief not be punished for bad play like other classes? You’re stealthed. You have the time to check boons like the rest of us … and adapt like the rest of us.

Heck, Mesmer clones/illusions skills still go on cooldown even when wasted and those are not just weapon skills but attached to the Mesmer’s class mechanic (shatters) as well. The cooldown is also much longer than the 3s a thief is revealed for.

Given it’s like that for Mesmers and every other non-thief class and the January patch that focused on stuff like this, I can’t see how you can honestly argue that a thief can make this mistake without any consequences … except if you admit you are trying to keep an unfair advantage.

Lrn2Play issue.
“OMG guardian is broken-aegis+retribution should make me invincible!”
This thread makes me smile.

Cheap reply.

I don’t believe I said anything about retaliation. I also don’t play a guardian.

I also hate the builds with 100% up-time on retaliation. Actually hate all the builds that have 100% up-time on any boon because they create scenarios where people use skills “whenever they’re not on cooldown” as opposed to having to actually think about when to use various skills. It dumbs down the game and removes some of the skill from the gameplay.

Additionally, aegis blocks one hit. If you can’t get around that, I pity you.

Also, since Ranger is one of the characters I play most, I hate retaliation probably more than you do (see: “shortbow attack speed” + “retaliation on foe” = pain)

Back to the points:

(1) ArenaNet had a patch in January 2013 that focused on effects still be “consumed” even if the attacks miss, are blocked, etc.

(2) Thieves currently do not lose the stealth effect when their attack misses, is blocked, etc.

(3) Thieves can remove blindness from themselves, aegis from their foe, etc. by attacking from stealth without losing stealth.

(4) Thieves can attack from stealth, be blocked by their target, and remain stealthed. This is amusing since many people that just say “learn to play” mention that you should use your blocks, etc. when the thief stealths.

(5) Every other non-thief class is punished for using their skills when blind, their opponent has aegis, etc.. Mesmer illusions summons are a perfect example of this.

Sebrent.3625:

Cheap reply.

I don’t believe I said anything about retaliation. I also don’t play a guardian.

I also hate the builds with 100% up-time on retaliation. Actually hate all the builds that have 100% up-time on any boon because they create scenarios where people use skills “whenever they’re not on cooldown” as opposed to having to actually think about when to use various skills. It dumbs down the game and removes some of the skill from the gameplay.

Additionally, aegis blocks one hit. If you can’t get around that, I pity you.

Lastly, since Ranger is one of the characters I play most, I hate retaliation probably more than you do (see: “shortbow attack speed” + “retaliation on foe” = pain)

Fair enough- although cheap, as it may be, 1: was still relevant and valid to QQ posts about our steal in stealth.
2: this thread should have been posted in Game Bugs forum to begin with if OP actually believed it to be a bug. Instead it’s a troll thread vs thief stealth ( who’d have thought?)
3: All your “points” are still “QQ not fair!” complaints about thief stealth. So …….L2P.

I’m a Mesmer and Trap Ranger … i.e. the source of Thief QQ. So lol.

However, I think when 7 out of 8 classes in a game follow a set of rules that were emphasized by a patch, that the one class not following it is something worth looking into.

I’m not the one who thinks a thief who plays poorly being revealed for 3 seconds is a horrible thing.

I’m only asking for consistency across the classes and game rules. If they want my Mesmer clone/phantasm skills to not go on cooldown when ruined by line-of-sight, blind, etc. then fine. As it stands, there is an inconsistency.

I’m not talking about stealth. I’m talking about thief not being punished, again, when making mistakes. The class is far too forgiving of bad players when compared to all other classes who are punished for making mistakes.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m a Mesmer and Trap Ranger … i.e. the source of Thief QQ. So lol.

However, I think when 7 out of 8 classes in a game follow a set of rules that were emphasized by a patch, that the one class not following it is something worth looking into.

I’m not the one who thinks a thief who plays poorly being revealed for 3 seconds is a horrible thing.

I’m only asking for consistency across the classes and game rules. If they want my Mesmer clone/phantasm skills to not go on cooldown when ruined by line-of-sight, blind, etc. then fine. As it stands, there is an inconsistency.

I’m not talking about stealth. I’m talking about thief not being punished, again, when making mistakes. The class is far too forgiving of bad players when compared to all other classes who are punished for making mistakes.

By this argument then for all classes to follow the exact same rules and have the same consistencies by which they operate then -

1. all professions should have F1-F4 abilities
2. all professions should have access to the same boons
3. all professions should have the same functions (in a group) across the board
4. etc.

The list could go on and on. We all know this isn’t nor should it be the case. Apples to oranges arguments are flawed from the get go. Forgive me if I fail to take them seriously.

I’m not asking for everyone to be able to stealth, steal, etc. so I don’t see how you come to those conclusions.

7 out of 8 classes have their effects removed when they are dumb enough to waste them against someone who is blocking, dodging, has aegis, etc.. The thief, with their multitude of “training wheels”, is the one class that does not.

I’m not advocating that others have Thief skills nor Thief have other skills. I’m advocating a removal of one of those many “training wheels” thieves have.

It’s like this recent patch to confusion that people QQ’d about. Rather than expect people to take condition removal, just pay attention to when they have confusion on them, or simply “play better” or “learn to play”, confusion got nerfed.

I think the idea of not expecting people to “play smart”, i.e. not having a reward/punishment for good/bad play, is dumbing down the combat.

Currently, the Thief has no punishment for this bad play where they don’t pay attention to blind, aegis, blocks, dodge rolls, etc.. They just get in range/position and press 1 1 1 1 1 1 till backstab or tactical strike hit their target.

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

As already pointed out, the Guardian as far fewer sources of Aegis than a thief does stealth … especially since C&D has no cooldown (yes, you’re limited by initiative, but good thieves are great at managing this).

I do not see why a thief who is stealthed can’t look at their foe and see that they have aegis, are blocking, are dodging, etc. and instead of blowing backstab and suffering revealed, they instead let stealth wear off, poke once with auto to remove the aegis, then continue on without suffering revealed and the aegis is off.

That large list of skills that count even when you miss, are blocked, etc. spans several types of skills. I do not see how backstabbing someone from stealth and removing their block doesn’t warrant something happening to the thief as well.

Why should the thief not be punished for bad play like other classes? You’re stealthed. You have the time to check boons like the rest of us … and adapt like the rest of us.

Heck, Mesmer clones/illusions skills still go on cooldown even when wasted and those are not just weapon skills but attached to the Mesmer’s class mechanic (shatters) as well. The cooldown is also much longer than the 3s a thief is revealed for.

Given it’s like that for Mesmers and every other non-thief class and the January patch that focused on stuff like this, I can’t see how you can honestly argue that a thief can make this mistake without any consequences … except if you admit you are trying to keep an unfair advantage.

the thief is punished….lol….but as to see your post….u are obviously not a thief. go play one for 3 weeks and come back. anyway to continue with explanation…. thieves are punished with the 2nd lowest hp total…..the squishiest of all classes….low defense….. no blocks…..no protection…..no invulnerability…. extremely limited boon access/application….pretty much 1 weaponset (as you switch to the 2nd you usually have no init to use skills)…….only 3or4 usable utilities (in 95% of all builds)…….mediocre burst/sustained dmg (3rd place behind warrior and mesmer) and only 1 extra way of healing outside of utility 6. so yes…thieves are punished….they should have some kind of “pro” to playing…not just a long list of “cons”. yes we have stealth…but i hardly think that saves grace of all the cons listed….. you can look at backstab alone and say its OP right? i mean does double dmg from behind for 0 intiative……however there are conditions …implications…and drawbacks to having that….you ahve to look at the larger picture and not just pinpoint one small thing and say its OP or broken. just my 2 cents

Travlane, I mostly agree with all your posts, and this time I do too. But just a friendly comment on something you tend to do:
You should stop typing “…” throughout your entire text after almost every sentence. I’ve noticed you love using dots every time you post. I don’t mind the spelling mistakes but the shear amount of dots makes one want to skip your text relatively easy. It fills a text needlessly and is tiring on the eye.

End a sentence with one dot, and start with a capital. You’ll get the same effect as you do now, only it’s easier to read.

Even after all the threads in the thief forum showing thieves doing great without making much (if any) use of stealth, we still have these posts that claim that the thief is horrible and absolutely needs their stealth.

Even if that was 100% true, it doesn’t mean the thief shouldn’t be punished when they make a mistake. That thief who needs to stay stealth can do as I suggested before:

• Don’t break stealth with an attack, preventing gaining the revealed debuff
• One 0.25 sec auto-attack to remove aegis or whatnot
• C&D

-OR-

• Don’t break stealth with an attack, preventing gaining the revealed debuff
• Use another source of stealth

There’s always the option to run off while stealthed and reset the fight. Thieves are quite good at this (if not the best) and generally benefit more from a fight resetting than other classes with their weapon skills on cooldowns who need their stunbreakers, etc. in order to counter many common thief maneuvers.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

As already pointed out, the Guardian as far fewer sources of Aegis than a thief does stealth … especially since C&D has no cooldown (yes, you’re limited by initiative, but good thieves are great at managing this).

I do not see why a thief who is stealthed can’t look at their foe and see that they have aegis, are blocking, are dodging, etc. and instead of blowing backstab and suffering revealed, they instead let stealth wear off, poke once with auto to remove the aegis, then continue on without suffering revealed and the aegis is off.

That large list of skills that count even when you miss, are blocked, etc. spans several types of skills. I do not see how backstabbing someone from stealth and removing their block doesn’t warrant something happening to the thief as well.

Why should the thief not be punished for bad play like other classes? You’re stealthed. You have the time to check boons like the rest of us … and adapt like the rest of us.

Heck, Mesmer clones/illusions skills still go on cooldown even when wasted and those are not just weapon skills but attached to the Mesmer’s class mechanic (shatters) as well. The cooldown is also much longer than the 3s a thief is revealed for.

Given it’s like that for Mesmers and every other non-thief class and the January patch that focused on stuff like this, I can’t see how you can honestly argue that a thief can make this mistake without any consequences … except if you admit you are trying to keep an unfair advantage.

the thief is punished….lol….but as to see your post….u are obviously not a thief. go play one for 3 weeks and come back. anyway to continue with explanation…. thieves are punished with the 2nd lowest hp total…..the squishiest of all classes….low defense….. no blocks…..no protection…..no invulnerability…. extremely limited boon access/application….pretty much 1 weaponset (as you switch to the 2nd you usually have no init to use skills)…….only 3or4 usable utilities (in 95% of all builds)…….mediocre burst/sustained dmg (3rd place behind warrior and mesmer) and only 1 extra way of healing outside of utility 6. so yes…thieves are punished….they should have some kind of “pro” to playing…not just a long list of “cons”. yes we have stealth…but i hardly think that saves grace of all the cons listed….. you can look at backstab alone and say its OP right? i mean does double dmg from behind for 0 intiative……however there are conditions …implications…and drawbacks to having that….you ahve to look at the larger picture and not just pinpoint one small thing and say its OP or broken. just my 2 cents

Travlane, I mostly agree with all your posts, and this time I do too. But just a friendly comment on something you tend to do:
You should stop typing “…” throughout your entire text after almost every sentence. I’ve noticed you love using dots every time you post. I don’t mind the spelling mistakes but the shear amount of dots makes one want to skip your text relatively easy. It fills a text needlessly and is tiring on the eye.

End a sentence with one dot, and start with a capital. You’ll get the same effect as you do now, only it’s easier to read.

such…a …bad…habit….when…typing…. lol yeah ill try

Sebrent.3625:

I’m not asking for everyone to be able to stealth, steal, etc. so I don’t see how you come to those conclusions.

7 out of 8 classes have their effects removed when they are dumb enough to waste them against someone who is blocking, dodging, has aegis, etc.. The thief, with their multitude of “training wheels”, is the one class that does not.

I’m not advocating that others have Thief skills nor Thief have other skills. I’m advocating a removal of one of those many “training wheels” thieves have.

It’s like this recent patch to confusion that people QQ’d about. Rather than expect people to take condition removal, just pay attention to when they have confusion on them, or simply “play better” or “learn to play”, confusion got nerfed.

I think the idea of not expecting people to “play smart”, i.e. not having a reward/punishment for good/bad play, is dumbing down the combat.

Currently, the Thief has no punishment for this bad play where they don’t pay attention to blind, aegis, blocks, dodge rolls, etc.. They just get in range/position and press 1 1 1 1 1 1 till backstab or tactical strike hit their target.

I think it’s funny when the complaint is made about thieves’ supposed “training wheels” or that we’re not punished when we make a mistake by a person who mostly plays a profession that has the best downed state abilities in game not to mention a pet who will down an opponent for you (have seen hits that do more than my backstab) and revive you. Now who isn’t being punished for playing bad, mr. Ranger?

(1) Completely separate topic

(2) Two wrongs don’t make a right

(3) If you are downed by a Ranger pet with the current AI, we know your level of play is low

(4) Ranger has the best downed state in the game? Lol.

(5) The only way a Ranger pet does as much damage as a Thief backstab is if the Ranger uses Signet of the Wild, Sick’Em, a cat, and has points in Beastmastery. That’s quite an investment and very cooldown dependent.

Thief is not following the same game mechanic rules as the other classes in this instance. That is the issue.

The counter to a thief being stealthed is to try to dodge roll, block, blind, etc. so that they don’t land the backstab. This failure to adhere to a game mechanic makes those counters less sufficient to do their job.

Heck, a warrior can use shield stance and a thief repeatedly get blocked by it while stealthed without breaking stealth and since shield stance is 3s and stealth w/ Shadow Arts is 4s, the thief will still get off that backstab/tactical strike. (Note: warrior was dumb for using shield stance without waiting a second or two).

I can use my scepter or OH sword block on my Mesmer, block the thief backstab, but the thief stays stealthed.

In all other instances, the blocked attack/skill loses whatever effect (opening strike, arcane power, poison, etc.).

The hit does land, but it is countered by another skill

There is no other class in the game that breaks this mechanic just as their is no other class that breaks the mechanic of high damage attacks having visuals that allow you to react to them.

There seems to be a mistaken perception that stealth ends when a thief attacks or when an attack lands. This is FALSE, stealth ends when a thief deals DIRECT damage, not Condi, not a missed attack, direct damage only. This has always been the case, not a bug, working as intended.
/thread

Shemsu, that doesn’t fit with how that long list of skills I listed works. They are also supposed to be consumed on DIRECT damage. However, they are also consumed when they missed, are blocked, are dodged, etc.

Heck, let’s look at what happens too with some of those. You’re complaining about your measly 3 seconds of revealed …

• Thief is revealed for 3 seconds, then they can use one of their many sources of stealth to restealth and try again
• Sigil’s go on their 9 second cooldown … though most can’t weapon swap for 10 seconds
• Arcane Power for Elementalist … it’s now on its 45s cooldown
• Incendary Ammo for Engineer … it’s now on its 60s cooldown
• Sharpening Stone for Ranger … it’s now on its 45s cooldown
• Opening Strikes for Ranger … they have to get out of combat for a few seconds to get that back
• Thief Venoms … they are now on their 45s cooldowns
• Thief Signet … it’s now on its 45s cooldown

So your 3 seconds of revealed is:

• 30% of that 10s on weapon swap
• 6.6…% of those 45s cooldowns
• 5% of those 60s cooldowns
• much less worse than having to get completely out of combat for several seconds

… yet you think that’s “too much”. Lol.

This is why we have things like the Thief talk on the latest episode of the Mesmer podcast (Mesmerized).

Your problem Seb is that you assume stealth is supposed to work like all of those things. Stealth is its own mechanic, it is not a boon, it is not a sigil or signet buff. Stealth is Stealth, and works via its own mechanics. Thats all there really is to it, you cant compare it to things that are completely unrelated and hence irrelevant

Sebrent.3625:

Shemsu, that doesn’t fit with how that long list of skills I listed works. They are also supposed to be consumed on DIRECT damage. However, they are also consumed when they missed, are blocked, are dodged, etc.

Heck, let’s look at what happens too with some of those. You’re complaining about your measly 3 seconds of revealed …

• Thief is revealed for 3 seconds, then they can use one of their many sources of stealth to restealth and try again
• Sigil’s go on their 9 second cooldown … though most can’t weapon swap for 10 seconds
• Arcane Power for Elementalist … it’s now on its 45s cooldown
• Incendary Ammo for Engineer … it’s now on its 60s cooldown
• Sharpening Stone for Ranger … it’s now on its 45s cooldown
• Opening Strikes for Ranger … they have to get out of combat for a few seconds to get that back
• Thief Venoms … they are now on their 45s cooldowns
• Thief Signet … it’s now on its 45s cooldown

So your 3 seconds of revealed is:

• 30% of that 10s on weapon swap
• 6.6…% of those 45s cooldowns
• 5% of those 60s cooldowns
• much less worse than having to get completely out of combat for several seconds

… yet you think that’s “too much”. Lol.

This is why we have things like the Thief talk on the latest episode of the Mesmer podcast (Mesmerized).

when revealed went from 3 to 4 secs….thieves that were like p/d or d/p did about 50% less dmg over a fight and took in just as much during the same fight. being exposed that extra second makes us more vunlnerable to attacks and makes us place ALOT more defensively….a 33% increase is huge.

Sigils are not a boon. Nor are Arcane Power, Incendiary Ammo, Sharpening Stones, Opening Strikes, Thief Poisons, and the Thief signet.

Stealth is a large part of the Thief class. That’s fine. Illusions are a large part of the Mesmer class. When a Mesmer casts a clone or phantasm when they are blind, their target is dodging/blocking/etc., the clone/phantasm is not summoned and the skill goes on cooldown … a cooldown much longer than 3 seconds AND now they can’t use it for shattering.

When a Thief uses backstab or tactical strike when they are blind, their target is dodging/blocking/etc., they remove aegis (if it’s on their foe), blind (if it’s on them), and remain stealthed. The only people that lose in this situation are those that played well … the player that put Aegis on their self, Blind on the thief, and/or is blocking/dodging to try to counter backstab. The one making the mistake is the Thief ignoring this and just attacking because they have their training wheels. The scenario awards the bad player while, at best, doing nothing for the good player (if not punishing them with a wasted skill on cooldown).

Also, I’m not asking for revealed to be longer … though plenty of good thieves I run with just laugh that it got changed back so quickly as it didn’t bother them (heck, it didn’t bother me when I jumped in sPvP on my thief).

Thief can’t handle 30% increase in revealed duration … causing Shadow Arts thieves to be unstealthed for 50% of a fight instead of 42.85% … but Mesmers are doing fine despite Confusion being nerfed by 50% which affects more than just the glamour build it was aimed at.

The Thief class is not as brittle as you think. It is this logic that is why other classes’ podcasts make fun of Thieves and their community.

srry but when a thief misses a CND (which is prolly around 60% probability) it takes 8 seconds to get back the intiative for it :P keep that in mind bro.

Oh my gosh, 8 whole seconds? Compare that to the cooldowns on most classes’ abilities. 8 seconds is a short cooldown. Let’s not even go into how powerful C&D or compare it to other weapon #5 skills’ cooldowns.

We’ll also ignore that the Thief class can stealth via a heal, multiple utilities, steal (traited), stealing from another thief (or other target that gives a tuft), etc.

We’ll also ignore that the Thief class can take traits/utilities that improve their ability to regain initiative.

I don’t main a Thief, but I tinker around on them plenty.

The only reason people think Thieves are “squishy” is because a majority of those that need the training wheels are running it glassy (more dps is the answer to everything! lol!). Every class is “squishy” when run glassy.

Honestly, why is the person who “played well” by putting up a defense to counter a big hit (something that works against all non-Thief classes), is punished for “playing well” while the Thief is rewarded for “playing poorly” by not paying attention to their foe’s boons, actions, etc..

It does not make sense to reward “playing poorly” and punish “playing well”. This is a byproduct of the training wheels Thieves thoroughly enjoy.

should we also ignore that thief has

0 blocks
0 invulnerability
0 Protection
0 Stability
0 Aegis
Most limited swiftness
2nd lowest HP total
Low Defense to start with
And the squishiest class regardless of build

idk maybe thats why they were given invis? if i had the choice….i would trade invis to fix ALL of those. woudl you be ok with that? you know…give thieves like 20k hp makeing them behit 33% less total dmg give them blocks and invulnerability and access to other boons they dont have? if so put a note into anet. ill sign it as a thief

and about “playing well” a good thief is hard to kill. average to bad thieves are killed as fast as upscales. only a good player can make thief look good. the class is dependent on the person playing it. anyone can be good at warrior for instance. D/D ele is similar. can be played and still be very tough(unlike thief) but when played well its godly.

First, stick with the main points:

• The thief staying stealthed does not matchup with the mechanics an entire patch was devoted to in January
• The way it currently works, the non-thief is punished for “playing well” while the thief is rewarded for “playing poorly”.

Now to your points, Travlane:

• Thief has blind … works like Aegis (actually, better since Signet of Might’s change)

• Thief has evasion … works like a Block (actually, better since Signet of Might’s change)

• Thief can dodge roll more than any other class given 15 pts in Acrobatics

• Against most opponents, stealth is complete damage mitigation as many builds don’t have spammable AOE/melee that can reliably hit a melee target

• Thief has teleport, stunbreak, and condition removal on a weaponset … the only class with a single weapon skill that does all of that … and the only weapon skill that is an actual stunbreaker.

Thief is not squishy. When visible, a Thief works largely the same way a Mesmer or Ranger works … they use dodge rolls, evasion, their own CC, blinds, etc. to simply not take damage. This is one of the ways they are a higher skill class than those who just go “ kitten 100% up-time on protection” and is the part I respect.

However, the Thief only has to do this while visible, which can be less than 50% of the fight. Mesmer has stealth but nothing close to that degree. Ranger doesn’t have it either.

A bad or average thief is a much bigger danger to others than a bad or average non-thief … hence the abundance of thieves seen in PvP. Baddies aren’t swarming to the class because it’s underpowered.

The thief is not lacking in defensive capabilities and they can save them for those 3 sec periods where they are visible. Others are visible for 100% of their fight and don’t have twice as many as the Thief.

If your mesmer misses a part of her aa chain it does the same attack again. Attacks from stealth are also 1. attacks. I see nothing different/wrong here… plus sorry but as I mentioned before you had a chance to stop the combo before when they entered stealth… and you can still avoid it after via positioning (you can force them to frontstab easily enough)/dodges/blocks/blinds/invlun.

You just can’t sit there and blind/block the thief once AFTER c&d to cause revealed.

Thief has counters to stealth now, move along please.

Aberrant.6749:

If your mesmer misses a part of her aa chain it does the same attack again. Attacks from stealth are also 1. attacks. I see nothing different/wrong here… plus sorry but as I mentioned before you had a chance to stop the combo before when they entered stealth… and you can still avoid it after via positioning (you can force them to frontstab easily enough)/dodges/blocks/blinds/invlun.

You just can’t sit there and blind/block the thief once AFTER c&d to cause revealed.

Incorrect. If shatters are blocked, they still go on cooldown (and you lose your illusions!)

If you dodge, line-of-sight, block, blurred frenzy, etc. when a Mesmer is casting an illusion on you, it will go on a FULL cooldown and NOT summon the illusion. I.E. the Mesmer is punished (or you’re rewarded) by you “playing well”.

Changing your facing rapidly while a thief is stealthed only works on bad thieves.

Backstab is far from an auto-attack chain skill. It does immensely more damage. If you want to tree it as such, then let’s lower its damage to that … then we can talk about it being unblockable, lol.

Right now, if I wait for 2 seconds and hit my block, the thief can hit me twice. Once to make my Mesmer block end and a 2nd time in order to land their backstab. That’s silly.

You’re saying that “I have a chance to stop the combo”. Well, on the same hand, even more so since they are stealthed, the Thief has a chance to realize their foe has Aegis, is blocking, is dodging, etc. and not gain the revealed debuff with what would be a fruitless backstab.

Why should others have to realize what the Thief is doing but the Thief doesn’t have to realize what others are doing? That is a bit hypocritical.

Sebrent.3625:

First, stick with the main points:

• The thief staying stealthed does not matchup with the mechanics an entire patch was devoted to in January
• The way it currently works, the non-thief is punished for “playing well” while the thief is rewarded for “playing poorly”.

---

Now to your points, Travlane:

• Thief has blind … works like Aegis (actually, better since Signet of Might’s change)

• Thief has evasion … works like a Block (actually, better since Signet of Might’s change)

• Thief can dodge roll more than any other class given 15 pts in Acrobatics

• Against most opponents, stealth is complete damage mitigation as many builds don’t have spammable AOE/melee that can reliably hit a melee target

• Thief has teleport, stunbreak, and condition removal on a weaponset … the only class with a single weapon skill that does all of that … and the only weapon skill that is an actual stunbreaker.

Thief is not squishy. When visible, a Thief works largely the same way a Mesmer or Ranger works … they use dodge rolls, evasion, their own CC, blinds, etc. to simply not take damage. This is one of the ways they are a higher skill class than those who just go kitten 100% up-time on protection" and is the part I respect.

However, the Thief only has to do this while visible, which can be less than 50% of the fight. Mesmer has stealth but nothing close to that degree. Ranger doesn’t have it either.

A bad or average thief is a much bigger danger to others than a bad or average non-thief … hence the abundance of thieves seen in PvP. Baddies aren’t swarming to the class because it’s underpowered.

The thief is not lacking in defensive capabilities and they can save them for those 3 sec periods where they are visible. Others are visible for 100% of their fight and don’t have twice as many as the Thief.

Blind is better than aegis? so Aegis is reduced by more than 90% against champs and bosses? i missed that patch. Aegis can be removed by any attack on air, whether or not a player is targeted, whether or not a player would be hit? I missed that patch also.

Thief has evasion, So does every class. Things that everyone can do, are not specific thief defenses.

Thief has very good uptime on vigor with a very specifc trait and heal combo, and must use the heal on CD every time to maintain it, usually wasting the heal and cc removal. Many other classes have perm uptime on vigor, thief does not win here either

Stealth is 0% damage mitigation, except on pve AI and perhaps noobs and bads, and even then its still not damage mitigation, its target avoidance, since we always take full damage in stealth. Unlike every single other class that has access to prot, invuln, block etc

Yes thief has the only weapon based stun breaker. Your 1 for 5 so far, at least you got this right

Thief works like mesmer and ranger? so thief has High uptime on protection and regen? I missed that patch. Thief has on demand distortion now? I missed that patch too. Thief can dodge roll, very awesome, if thief was the only class that could dodge, but EVERYONE can avoid damage by evading, this is not specific to thief, your just pointing out that we literally have NOTHING else except the base mechanic given to every class

Thief can NOT dodge more then any other class, myth.

10 points trait in shadow arts … high up-time on regen.

15 points in acrobatics … thief can dodge 3 times with the same amount of endurance that others can dodge only twice … can dodge 6 times with vigor in the time someone else can dodge only 4 times with vigor.

Thief has multiple weapons with built in evasion. Many classes do NOT have this.

If you need to use blind on a champion mob to avoid being hit, lol. Also we’re talking mainly about PvP here. The context of the discussion has been quite clear on that. Additionally, if an opponent takes the time to swing at air in the middle of a fight with me just to clear blind, then lol. There is a reason many of the top thieves in sPvP and WvW are taking Cloaked in Shadow (a blind when you stealth).

Why is it that Thieves complain about their Vigor-on-heal trait but Ranger’s love theirs? Especially when the Ranger Vigor-on-heal does NOT stack with the Ranger’s passive endurance Regen while the Thief’s Vigor-on-heal works beautifully with their dodge trait?

Ranger gets 2 seconds of protection on dodge roll. That’s really “high” up-time. Thief can steal protection from others … and any other boons. Mesmer protection is on Staff or 3 sec every 15 seconds and requires gaining regen from some source. Not really high up-times.

The way they are alike is that the classes use ACTIVE defenses instead of largely relying on passive defenses like the Dagger+Dagger ele (protection, regen, soothing mists, etc.).

Sebrent.3625:

Aberrant.6749:

If your mesmer misses a part of her aa chain it does the same attack again. Attacks from stealth are also 1. attacks. I see nothing different/wrong here… plus sorry but as I mentioned before you had a chance to stop the combo before when they entered stealth… and you can still avoid it after via positioning (you can force them to frontstab easily enough)/dodges/blocks/blinds/invlun.

You just can’t sit there and blind/block the thief once AFTER c&d to cause revealed.

Incorrect. If shatters are blocked, they still go on cooldown (and you lose your illusions!)

If you dodge, line-of-sight, block, blurred frenzy, etc. when a Mesmer is casting an illusion on you, it will go on a FULL cooldown and NOT summon the illusion. I.E. the Mesmer is punished (or you’re rewarded) by you “playing well”.

Changing your facing rapidly while a thief is stealthed only works on bad thieves.

Backstab is far from an auto-attack chain skill. It does immensely more damage. If you want to tree it as such, then let’s lower its damage to that … then we can talk about it being unblockable, lol.

Right now, if I wait for 2 seconds and hit my block, the thief can hit me twice. Once to make my Mesmer block end and a 2nd time in order to land their backstab. That’s silly.

You’re saying that “I have a chance to stop the combo”. Well, on the same hand, even more so since they are stealthed, the Thief has a chance to realize their foe has Aegis, is blocking, is dodging, etc. and not gain the revealed debuff with what would be a fruitless backstab.

Why should others have to realize what the Thief is doing but the Thief doesn’t have to realize what others are doing? That is a bit hypocritical.

Actually backstab is quite comparable to auto attack skills, not only does it occupy the same skill slot, has a casting time, a position based requirement. As for your comment about backstabs damage, you seem to forget that warrior axe autoattack has HIGHER damage than backstab, on a free AA with 0 position or stealth reqs.

PearlGore.7419:

Thief can NOT dodge more then any other class, myth.

You are incorrect.

Please see Feline Grace

You recover 15 endurance when the dodge completes, effectively lowering the cost of a dodge to 35 endurance.

Dodge takes 0.75 seconds. So two dodge rolls will be 1.5 seconds so a person will gain 5% without vigor, 10% with vigor in the time it takes them to dodge twice and be 0.5s away from 5% or 10% more endurance.

Dodging costs others 50 endurance and you can have 100 max. 100 / 50 = 2 dodges and 10% endurance.

Dodging with Feline Grace costs you 35 endurance and you can have 100 max. But after the first 2 dodges, you’ll have gained at least 5% endurance back, so you’ll dodge twice giving you 30 endurance + 5 = 35, so you can now dodge a third time. With vigor, this becomes even better.

Sebrent.3625:

10 points trait in shadow arts … high up-time on regen.

15 points in acrobatics … thief can dodge 3 times with the same amount of endurance that others can dodge only twice … can dodge 6 times with vigor in the time someone else can dodge only 4 times with vigor.

Thief has multiple weapons with built in evasion. Many classes do NOT have this.

If you need to use blind on a champion mob to avoid being hit, lol. Also we’re talking mainly about PvP here. The context of the discussion has been quite clear on that. Additionally, if an opponent takes the time to swing at air in the middle of a fight with me just to clear blind, then lol. There is a reason many of the top thieves in sPvP and WvW are taking Cloaked in Shadow (a blind when you stealth).

Why is it that Thieves complain about their Vigor-on-heal trait but Ranger’s love theirs? Especially when the Ranger Vigor-on-heal does NOT stack with the Ranger’s passive endurance Regen while the Thief’s Vigor-on-heal works beautifully with their dodge trait?

Ranger gets 2 seconds of protection on dodge roll. That’s really “high” up-time. Thief can steal protection from others … and any other boons. Mesmer protection is on Staff or 3 sec every 15 seconds and requires gaining regen from some source. Not really high up-times.

The way they are alike is that the classes use ACTIVE defenses instead of largely relying on passive defenses like the Dagger+Dagger ele (protection, regen, soothing mists, etc.).

Stealth is 100% mitigation unless:

• The thief is stupid enough to stand in melee range of someone with a melee weapon
• The thief is stupid enough to stand in the AOE their opponent is throwing down

How do you backstab or tac strike without being in melee range, I havnt learned that trick yet?

@Shemsu:
Having a casting time means what exactly? Should everything that has a casting time operate like this?

That’s fine if you want to be like the Warrior’s axe auto-attack. When you block an axe warrior’s 3rd auto-attack in the chain, he doesn’t get to swing that same attack again, he reverts back to the beginning of his auto-attack chain.

Looks like we’re back to where I started … a Thief’s mistake while in stealth is not functioning the same as everyone else’s mistakes with their own abilities.

Actually it does function like others, when a warrior misses a burst skill the adren is not used, when a thief misses a backstab the stealth is not used. Its been working like this since beta for both classes, I would say, working as intended.
/thread

Shemsu.8721:

How do you backstab or tac strike without being in melee range, I havnt learned that trick yet?

(1) If the first swing of an auto-attack is going to kill you, you shouldn’t be going for backstab or tactical strike

(2) Not all builds have a melee attack (or even AOEs)

(3) Trading a backstab for a single first hit from any melee weapon is a win for the Thief

(4) You can time it for slow attacking weapons … especially with tactical strike

(5) There are plenty of thieves who use stealth and let it run out so they don’t get the reveal debuff. This allows them to gain additional time on whatever cooldown(s) they want/need. Being stealthed does not mean you have to break stealth with an attack … ArenaNet didn’t give you guys (and Mesmers) the “always revealed” nerf.

You guys can keep pretending and posturing like the Thief is “so hard”, but it is not. There are plenty of people who simply pick up the class and roll faces with it.

It is not an extremely popular class in PvP because it is “hard”. Otherwise, the classes currently seen as “underpowered” would be what I see 6 of in an sPvP match … not Thieves.

Shemsu.8721:

Actually it does function like others, when a warrior misses a burst skill the adren is not used, when a thief misses a backstab the stealth is not used. Its been working like this since beta for both classes, I would say, working as intended.
/thread

Oh, so when that warrior misses his eviscerate he can immediately cast it again to hit you? Oh yeah, that’s right, he can’t.

But he can swap weapons and use another burst skill with no CD and not having to recharge the adren.

Shemsu.8721:

But he can swap weapons and use another burst skill with no CD and not having to recharge the adren.

• Swapping weapons takes the time it takes you to backstab again.
• Swapping weapons can be seen by the opponent.
• The burst skill of the weapon swapped to has a cast time AND an animation that can be seen.
• The warrior is visible the entire time

Additionally, look at the burst skills of the warrior’s weapons. They function quite differently from one another.

Sebrent.3625:

Shemsu.8721:

But he can swap weapons and use another burst skill with no CD and not having to recharge the adren.

• Swapping weapons takes the time it takes you to backstab again.
• Swapping weapons can be seen by the opponent.
• The burst skill of the weapon swapped to has a cast time AND an animation that can be seen.
• The warrior is visible the entire time

Additionally, look at the burst skills of the warrior’s weapons. They function quite differently from one another.

Backstab also has a cast time, so the burst/swap CD is even (The times are not even, but warrior bursts do are more powerful than thief stealth attacks) Yes swapping weapons can be seen by the opponent, just like you saw the thief go in stealth.

Shemsu.8721:

Sebrent.3625:

Shemsu.8721:

But he can swap weapons and use another burst skill with no CD and not having to recharge the adren.

• Swapping weapons takes the time it takes you to backstab again.
• Swapping weapons can be seen by the opponent.
• The burst skill of the weapon swapped to has a cast time AND an animation that can be seen.
• The warrior is visible the entire time

Additionally, look at the burst skills of the warrior’s weapons. They function quite differently from one another.

Backstab also has a cast time, so the burst/swap CD is even (The times are not even, but warrior bursts do are more powerful than thief stealth attacks) Yes swapping weapons can be seen by the opponent, just like you saw the thief go in stealth.

Backstab’s cast time is 0.25 sec. Weapon swap is 0.25 to 0.5 seconds. Warrior burst skills are 0.5 (sword) to 1.75 (rifle) cast times. No, that is not equivalent, especially since:

• The warrior is being forced to use a different burst skill
• The warrior is forced to swap weapons
• The warrior is visible … as is the attack

The warrior has to make a choice. The Thief simply has to hit ‘1’ again to try the same thing they just tried and failed due to their inability to pay attention to combat.

Sebrent.3625:

Aberrant.6749:

If your mesmer misses a part of her aa chain it does the same attack again. Attacks from stealth are also 1. attacks. I see nothing different/wrong here… plus sorry but as I mentioned before you had a chance to stop the combo before when they entered stealth… and you can still avoid it after via positioning (you can force them to frontstab easily enough)/dodges/blocks/blinds/invlun.

You just can’t sit there and blind/block the thief once AFTER c&d to cause revealed.

Incorrect. If shatters are blocked, they still go on cooldown (and you lose your illusions!)

If you dodge, line-of-sight, block, blurred frenzy, etc. when a Mesmer is casting an illusion on you, it will go on a FULL cooldown and NOT summon the illusion. I.E. the Mesmer is punished (or you’re rewarded) by you “playing well”.

Changing your facing rapidly while a thief is stealthed only works on bad thieves.

Backstab is far from an auto-attack chain skill. It does immensely more damage. If you want to tree it as such, then let’s lower its damage to that … then we can talk about it being unblockable, lol.

Right now, if I wait for 2 seconds and hit my block, the thief can hit me twice. Once to make my Mesmer block end and a 2nd time in order to land their backstab. That’s silly.

You’re saying that “I have a chance to stop the combo”. Well, on the same hand, even more so since they are stealthed, the Thief has a chance to realize their foe has Aegis, is blocking, is dodging, etc. and not gain the revealed debuff with what would be a fruitless backstab.

Why should others have to realize what the Thief is doing but the Thief doesn’t have to realize what others are doing? That is a bit hypocritical.

Since when is a shatter part of the aa chain? >.> All skills on the #1 slot behave this way. Nice try though.

Changing face rapidly isn’t how you get them to frontstab.

Blocks last longer than the full stealth time, so idk where you’re going with that one… that’s just silly.

It’s very obvious you’ve never plaid a thief.

I’ve plaid multiple classes extensively… including guard. Guards already have a metric ton of skills they can use to stop a thief dead. If you die from a thief on your guard it’s your own fault.

(1) It’s “played”

(2) I’ve played thief plenty

(3) I know if I wait 1-2 seconds and then hit my block that it will outlast the stealth … the issue is that a Thief can backstab my block, my block then goes away (unless you’re warrior shield stance) and then the thief, who is still stealthed, backstabs again. It takes the thief 0.5 seconds because backstab is a 0.25s cast.

(4) I was talking about the shatters well before you came into this conversation.

(5) If changing your facing isn’t how you get a frontstab, do please enlighten everyone as to how to magically force a thief to stab your face instead of your back.

Please read the actual discussion before you continue trying to take part in it.

Just give thieves a shield and take away guardian and warrior shields/blocks/armor and see if they think thieves are op. My guess would be yes.

Sebrent.3625:

(1) It’s “played”

(2) I’ve played thief plenty

(3) I know if I wait 1-2 seconds and then hit my block that it will outlast the stealth … the issue is that a Thief can backstab my block, my block then goes away (unless you’re warrior shield stance) and then the thief, who is still stealthed, backstabs again. It takes the thief 0.5 seconds because backstab is a 0.25s cast.

(4) I was talking about the shatters well before you came into this conversation.

(5) If changing your facing isn’t how you get a frontstab, do please enlighten everyone as to how to magically force a thief to stab your face instead of your back.

Please read the actual discussion before you continue trying to take part in it.

So sorry about the grammar error, totally worth point out and very relevant to this conversation.

From this discussion it doesn’t sound like you learned very much from your time as a thief.

Once again… for the 3rd time… you had an opportunity to counter and take away a LOT of the thief’s ini when they entered stealth. That’s when you block/blind. That’s a high enough penalty on the thief.

You quoted me and responded about shatters lol.

You don’t just rapidly change where you face, you back off then change face.

Sorry you don’t like my logic.

L2P guard better and you’ll stomp thieves with the current mechanics. I and many others have NO problems with it.

Kaizer.7135:

Then aegis would DESTROY thieves, once you see them go stealth > aegis > block > thief revealed for 4 secs > CC > dead thief.

Of course, an experienced thief can get out of any battle alive as long as they dont get kitteny or are just good.

this is precisely the thing Thief players have gotten used to playing Without Skill if the class was balanced they would qq and launch death threats at anet . lets be honest 90% thiefs run berserker or something similiar and it is not because the class simply sucks its because they got used to the broken mechanics giving unfair and easy gameplay theres ridiculous amounts of viable builds for thiefs some are ridiculously tanky while having dps so its a We dont want to L2Play issue.

@Abberant: No face changing. I have several posts in this thread discussing auto-attacks. I’ve also discussed shatters, illusion summoning, arcane power, etc.. But that’s cute.

Additionally, I don’t play a Guardian. Read the discussion and you’ll see that I play Mesmer and Ranger and have no issue with most Thieves as most are terribad; often for the reason stated by Rezzet.

This is not and never has been some post claiming Thieves are OP. It is a post, started by someone else. I saw it, checked how the mechanics work for everyone else, including a massive patch devoted to this sort of thing, and thought about how it affects the “skilled-gameplay” of Guild Wars. This brought up the two main points

• It does not function the same as any other skill in the game
• It punishes good play by non-Thieves while rewarding bad play by Thieves

These points have been brought up multiple times since the first page. They are the main points. You can talk about how any other skill works, burst, shatter, auto-attacks, etc.. I’ve already answered those multiple times.

Try reading the thread and sticking with the points.

Or you can continue to try to attack me, though I suggest you read the code of conduct before continuing that route.

@ Rezzet:
I agree that the thief community is far more prone to complaining about anything that reduces their power.

Look at the extremely small amount of information we received about the anti-stealth traps. There are thief posts all over the place complaining about it. Compare that to the other class that can use stealth (Mesmers). Nothing close to what we’re seeing from the Thieves.

Look back at the “always revealed” nerf that ArenaNet had thought about putting out. This could have potentially affected Mesmers more than Thieves as Mesmers rarely ever break stealth with an attack (we have no backstab, etc.) and often rely on stealth to compensate for a lack of speed in many builds when it comes to disengaging from a fight. Who complained so adamantly about how that “would break their class” ? The thieves.

Now here we are pointing out that everyone else that wastes their skills, that take up utility slots, trait points, etc. and are on drastically longer cooldowns than revealed are punished for not paying attention to their target’s to check for aegis, blocking, dodging, etc. and Thieves are again saying their class can’t handle it.

Why is it that this one class can’t handle following the same game mechanics as the rest? Is it really that broken?

From playing thief myself (though not maining it like my Mesmer/Ranger) and talking all the time with good thieves, like Xeviel and KillingFrenzy on Ehmry Bay, I’m quite confident that it isn’t that broken. There are just more of those people that complain about their class’s power no matter what. It’s like when Mesmer was still fairly new and we had several people complaining about how illusions and shatters work or the large number of people that still complain about Ranger pets “dying too easily”.

Not sure if this has been mentioned here, but here are my two cents anyway. I think you do not go out of stealth -when you hit someone with aegis- for the same reason you do not go into stealth when hitting someone with aegis using cloak and dagger. You don’t actually cause any direct damage. However, let’s say they changed this, and you get the reveal debuff as soon as you hit someone with aegis or some other type of block, it only seems reasonable that you should be able to successfully cloak and dagger of it as well, regardless if you damage your opponent or not.