Guild Wars 2

I mean, I can still pump out 20k and drop people like they’re nothing.
But please show me a spec just as effective as backstab/shortbow, and I’ll be happy to switch to something less cheap. Oh wait, all my other specs suck.

TLDR:
Tone down burst.
Buff everything else.

PS – Scorpion wire – backstab is pretty funny.

There are bunch of viable specs.

P/D condition is good.
S/D is quite strong.
S/P is still good after the nerf.
P/P is viable despite what people say.
D/D bleedspam is also good.

I didn’t say viable, I said just as effective. That’s the problem, they’ve nerfed everything except 20k backstab bursts. (Well, they nerfed it a little…)
We’re pretty much forced into backstab builds nowadays because it’s head and shoulders above the rest of our options.

fadeaway.2807:

I mean, I can still pump out 20k and drop people like they’re nothing.
But please show me a spec just as effective as backstab/shortbow, and I’ll be happy to switch to something less cheap. Oh wait, all my other specs suck.

TLDR:
Tone down burst.
Buff everything else.

PS – Scorpion wire – backstab is pretty funny.

Of course the burst is still too high; it was literally untouched in every area except s/tPvP where it was never a real problem, and only barely touched even there.

fadeaway.2807:

I didn’t say viable, I said just as effective. That’s the problem, they’ve nerfed everything except 20k backstab bursts. (Well, they nerfed it a little…)
We’re pretty much forced into backstab builds nowadays because it’s head and shoulders above the rest of our options.

So the problem isn’t that other specs are weak, the problem is that backstab is too strong, which is a different thing.

I just hit 80… I want dis build! Where can I find it? I want to 20k hit noobs!

20k backstab ? ive never seen that like ever even on a glass cannon come on ur exaggerating just a little bit here atleast show proof that u actually hit that amount then ill shut my mouth ive been seeying players come on here all the time claiming they hit 15k and 20k backstabs but never show proof..

Thieves will continue to have “too much burst” until they cant kill anything at all. Meanwhile, warriors and guardians are literally walking gods, and players will still complain about thieves because they can stealth.

Since ANet didn’t touch the FotM burst build, it must be as intended.

They also hate every weapon set except for D/D.

sorrow.2364:

fadeaway.2807:

I didn’t say viable, I said just as effective. That’s the problem, they’ve nerfed everything except 20k backstab bursts. (Well, they nerfed it a little…)
We’re pretty much forced into backstab builds nowadays because it’s head and shoulders above the rest of our options.

So the problem isn’t that other specs are weak, the problem is that backstab is too strong, which is a different thing.

Absolutely not.

Except P/D condition focused ( with/without venoms), other thief builds are inferior to any other competitive build of other classes.

In some niche comps, the backstab build can be used, but it’s largely inferior to an ele roamer.

I’m currently trying a D/P heavy acro build with air runes to understand if it’s viable, and i really hope it will, altough i find 1vs1 against certain classes to be hard as hell.

ddrake.5436:

OMG Wowzers, I just got a 50,000 backstab on a noob, nerf backstab!

I got a 100,000 backstab the other night.

Oh man i cant wait to see people’s damage with full ascended gear (Crit damage) which is an additional 24% if this goes like the rings.

Anyway p/d is the most fun build of the thief. Have a go at it. You will love it.

Syphen.1980:

ddrake.5436:

OMG Wowzers, I just got a 50,000 backstab on a noob, nerf backstab!

I got a 100,000 backstab the other night.

i’ve seen it really,15 stack of might,20%more damage under 50% enemy hp and the dredge boss at fractals with 2 or 3 cauldron on hit,come to mammy baby xD

Warriors have a higher burst then thieves, and as many people have said P/D is very good but mostly in hot join.

It’s a shame that people always complain about my poor thief. I have a shatter mesmer that absolutely blows the doors off my thief in terms of dropping newbs. I also have a warrior that does higher burst. Also I have a bunker guardian and a bunker ele.. both can survive forever. I have a condi necro that absolutely melts people.

Yet, people are still complaining about my poor thief.

Oh well….

jaygregz.1958:

It’s a shame that people always complain about my poor thief. I have a shatter mesmer that absolutely blows the doors off my thief in terms of dropping newbs. I also have a warrior that does higher burst. Also I have a bunker guardian and a bunker ele.. both can survive forever. I have a condi necro that absolutely melts people.

Yet, people are still complaining about my poor thief.

Oh well….

Wha?!? you neva heard, thief burst is still too high. omg nerf them to the ground, they need nerf with nerf ontop of nerf. they nerf you into the ground with all their uber burst. I have done a backstab for 1000000000 deeps, nerf me please.

ok. seriously, you are right. I am also sick of people complaining about the thief. their damage is not high in comparison to other classes. but people always seem to remember that 1 fight where the thief killed them or got away, and that seems to linger in their minds so they come on the forums and complain. when they do eventually stop nerfing the thief, I will be happy to jump on their forums and complain that their classes need nerf too. infact…. here I go now.

Nerf Warrior
Nerf Mesmer
Nerf Ranger
Nerf Guardian
Nerf Necromancer
Nerf Engineer
Nerf Elementalist

I can kill ppl in a second or two too, IN WvW And you know why? Because the ppl there are literally dumb…
Tell me which person with a functioning brain would roam in WvW undergeared and maybe underleveled? Only those who I mentioned in the first sentence of this post.

Good player will deal with you, unless you are much much better player than he is, end of story. Works as intended, stealth classes burst builds was always meant to strike down weak characters, it´s basically a counter-class to Glass cannons. When the ppl finally start to understand this for god´s sake???
It´s the same situation as the survival builds are counter to burst GC Thieves…

Mrbig.8019:

Absolutely not.

Except P/D condition focused ( with/without venoms), other thief builds are inferior to any other competitive build of other classes.

In some niche comps, the backstab build can be used, but it’s largely inferior to an ele roamer.

I’m currently trying a D/P heavy acro build with air runes to understand if it’s viable, and i really hope it will, altough i find 1vs1 against certain classes to be hard as hell.

I don’t think you have really played any other build of other professions or you have at least tried all the builds you are claiming to be weak.

It is absolutely normal that 1vs1 against some builds is harder than the other, you can’t be a counter of everything.

Actually all the weapon sets of the thief are viable (probably D/P is the only set I didn’t find any use) and are effective.

S/D is extremely strong when built around stealth and raw damage (10/30/30). With the boon stripped on Flanking Strike and the accessible daze on Tactical Strike you can not only kill guardians easily, but you can also easily outlast any enemy thanks to the high mobility and high stealth accessibility.

P/P is a great support set, great to finish off targets on low health with Unload, but it is also quite good thanks to its utility. Don’t underrate headshot. In the right hands, it can be a very powerful skill.

S/P is viable, unless people say. The damage of PW is high, also the defensive capability of the whole build. Sword gives the build a pretty decent damage output thanks to autoattack, but also great mobility thanks to Infiltrator’s Strike.

Now if in your opinion D/D is superior over other specs, it is probably because it is focused more on the raw damage, bursts and it is the easiest set to play.. Since most people like bursts, they think that thief is all about that kind of playstyle, which is absolutely untrue, so they end up on conclusions that D/D is the only viable set and others are just junk.

sorrow.2364:

P/P is a great support set, great to finish off targets on low health with Unload, but it is also quite good thanks to its utility.

You have the rare talent to present some complete garbage as a valuable thing.
Did you try a carrier as a salesman of used cars or something?

ZLE.8293:

sorrow.2364:

P/P is a great support set, great to finish off targets on low health with Unload, but it is also quite good thanks to its utility.

You have the rare talent to present some complete garbage as a valuable thing.
Did you try a carrier as a salesman of used cars or something?

I have no other option than agree with that, P/P is really probably the weakest weapon set available for Thief. If you use it for finishing low HP enemies, a simple backstab would do wonders for you
Maybe it´s now usable against mesmers, as another topic says, but that´s all I suppose…

STRanger.5120:

I have no other option than agree with that, P/P is really probably the weakest weapon set available for Thief. If you use it for finishing low HP enemies, a simple backstab would do wonders for you
Maybe it´s now usable against mesmers, as another topic says, but that´s all I suppose…

You would be right if Dancing Daggers wasn’t nerfed.
Actually, Unload can deal pretty decent damage and can be cast 2 times in a row AND is ranged, which is a really good parameter.
Shortbow hasn’t the same dps as P/P has, so it isn’t a good weapon choice to finish off targets.

I run S/D + P/P with 0/30/30/10/0 traits and berserker gear in s/tPvP. I usually S/D to pressure the enemy with substained damage and dazes, and switch to P/P to kite the enemy, interrupting their combo opener or high damage skills, and using Unload to finish them off. Actually, Unload is better than many other channeled skills, like the Necromancers’ one (Ghastly Claws or Life Siphon). It deals 808 damage on a bit less than two seconds casting time, which is really good considering its range and the fact that you can use it 2 or 3 times in a row, plus the damage is pumped up thanks to the bunch of damage boosters thief has in its traitlines.

sorrow.2364:

STRanger.5120:

I have no other option than agree with that, P/P is really probably the weakest weapon set available for Thief. If you use it for finishing low HP enemies, a simple backstab would do wonders for you
Maybe it´s now usable against mesmers, as another topic says, but that´s all I suppose…

You would be right if Dancing Daggers wasn’t nerfed.
Actually, Unload can deal pretty decent damage and can be cast 2 times in a row AND is ranged, which is a really good parameter.
Shortbow hasn’t the same dps as P/P has, so it isn’t a good weapon choice to finish off targets.

I run S/D + P/P with 0/30/30/10/0 traits and berserker gear in s/tPvP. I usually S/D to pressure the enemy with substained damage and dazes, and switch to P/P to kite the enemy, interrupting their combo opener or high damage skills, and using Unload to finish them off. Actually, Unload is better than many other channeled skills, like the Necromancers’ one (Ghastly Claws or Life Siphon). It deals 808 damage on a bit less than two seconds casting time, which is really good considering its range and the fact that you can use it 2 or 3 times in a row, plus the damage is pumped up thanks to the bunch of damage boosters thief has in its traitlines.

Well, it fits maybe your build/playstyle, but generally the SB is far better ranged option because of it´s utility. A lot of ppl doesn´t run S/D, so they don´t need ranged burst, that´s the place for SB.
It´s really the matter of preference/playstyle, but P/P is really not used as much as the SB, for a reason

STRanger.5120:

Well, it fits maybe your build/playstyle, but generally the SB is far better ranged option because of it´s utility. A lot of ppl doesn´t run S/D, so they don´t need ranged burst, that´s the place for SB.
It´s really the matter of preference/playstyle, but P/P is really not used as much as the SB, for a reason

Yes, because as I said before, people prefer to stick with D/D because of its burst capability and ease to use, so P/P doesn’t fit well with P/P because it needs another weapon set which gives mobility to the player (→ Shortbow), to compensate the lack of D/D.

Since S/X has no problems with mobility, you can sacrifice SB to have a more bursty set which is P/P.
Anyway, it feels like an exaggeration to say that P/P is unviable, because it isn’t. Probably it is unviable and not worth using if your 1st weapon set is D/D, but it doesn’t mean that it is unviable by itself.

I ran into a very well geared D/D thief tonight. He didn’t kill me but came really close. I got my heal off and would have fought him but it was a small zerg vs zerg moment. The damage

[IMG]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff27/listicdaoc/gw001.jpg[/IMG]

I run a full exotic carrion armor/weapons/jewelry and 30 points into shadow arts. Its moments like those I’m glad I chose to play P/D condition/vitality.

I’m not calling for a nerf because if they screw up at all I win 99% of the time, but I look at the damage and see why >80s with crap gear whine about it.

blaznee.5781:

I ran into a very well geared D/D thief tonight. He didn’t kill me but came really close. I got my heal off and would have fought him but it was a small zerg vs zerg moment. The damage

[IMG]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff27/listicdaoc/gw001.jpg[/IMG]

I run a full exotic carrion armor/weapons/jewelry and 30 points into shadow arts. Its moments like those I’m glad I chose to play P/D condition/vitality.

I’m not calling for a nerf because if they screw up at all I win 99% of the time, but I look at the damage and see why >80s with crap gear whine about it.

Exactly what I´m talking about
Btw I´m running Backstab build, but with Valkyrie equip and 30 shadow arts, just for this reason, not to be food for those Glass cannons and still have some punch

Hey guys heres a fellow Ranger talking.I think i can feel you.Theres no point to just nerf something (BS) but you must improv other features to make more builds viable.
Im sick and tired of seeing “shortbow-d/d BS power” thiefs in pvp..
So i say dont nerf the BS dmg if you wont Buff Pistols.
Its the same and the same thing over and over again
Necro——>cond. dmg
Thiefs——→burst with BS
Engi————>Support-bunkers
Guardians——>Super Bunkers
Warriors———>pretty much everything
Mesmers———>op in 1v1,roamers,dmg,Moa
Ele——→Bunkers(they got nerfed too but still good imo)
Rangers——>Bring some traps and cond dmg cause we cant find a Necro or GTFO

Ive heard before release that every prof here can do anything but as every mmo eventually there are 1-2 builds viable for every prof

Dardamaniac.1295:

Hey guys heres a fellow Ranger talking.I think i can feel you.Theres no point to just nerf something (BS) but you must improv other features to make more builds viable.
Im sick and tired of seeing “shortbow-d/d BS power” thiefs in pvp..
So i say dont nerf the BS dmg if you wont Buff Pistols.
Its the same and the same thing over and over again
Necro——>cond. dmg
Thiefs——->burst with BS
Engi————>Support-bunkers
Guardians——>Super Bunkers
Warriors———>pretty much everything
Mesmers———>op in 1v1,roamers,dmg,Moa
Ele——->Bunkers(they got nerfed too but still good imo)
Rangers——>Bring some traps and cond dmg cause we cant find a Necro or GTFO

Ive heard before release that every prof here can do anything but as every mmo eventually there are 1-2 builds viable for every prof

Your point is invalid.
This isn’t about that just one build is viable, it is just that one build is overperforming compared to others, so everyone runs it.

Thieves have bunch of other builds, but since D/D deals insane damage and is extremely easy to use, everyone use it. There are some pro thieves which stay away from that spec, but it isn’t the only viable option.

It is the same with almost every other profession you listed, they have more than one viable spec, but people stick with one because the ease to use or because its effectiveness, with some exceptions obviously (Eles and Necro, for instance)

sorrow.2364:

I don’t think you have really played any other build of other professions or you have at least tried all the builds you are claiming to be weak.

It is absolutely normal that 1vs1 against some builds is harder than the other, you can’t be a counter of everything.

Actually all the weapon sets of the thief are viable (probably D/P is the only set I didn’t find any use) and are effective.

S/D is extremely strong when built around stealth and raw damage (10/30/30). With the boon stripped on Flanking Strike and the accessible daze on Tactical Strike you can not only kill guardians easily, but you can also easily outlast any enemy thanks to the high mobility and high stealth accessibility.

P/P is a great support set, great to finish off targets on low health with Unload, but it is also quite good thanks to its utility. Don’t underrate headshot. In the right hands, it can be a very powerful skill.

S/P is viable, unless people say. The damage of PW is high, also the defensive capability of the whole build. Sword gives the build a pretty decent damage output thanks to autoattack, but also great mobility thanks to Infiltrator’s Strike.

Now if in your opinion D/D is superior over other specs, it is probably because it is focused more on the raw damage, bursts and it is the easiest set to play.. Since most people like bursts, they think that thief is all about that kind of playstyle, which is absolutely untrue, so they end up on conclusions that D/D is the only viable set and others are just junk.

Don’t start this discussion if you are going to be so dismissive, because you can’t absolutely know if i have/have not tried all those builds i mentioned.

I was an alpha tester, i had plenty of time ( more than 80% of people playing the game currently) to discover the best builds around, but some people could still say " it doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough to understand them" ( even without knowing how skilled i am).

I had 200+ victories on tourneys with my team ( which left long ago, waiting for a freaking ladder), but it doesn’t matter because some people could still argue "tourneys victories are worthless, since you just slaughtered pugs with a premade ( and they’re actually quite right) "

I have no QPs, due to not having a team anyore, and due to not having any desire in finding it, due to current state of PvP.
But even if i was one of those top tier players, some people could still argue that QPs leaderboard is simply a joke based upon farming mathces more than really being skilled ( and i strongely agree).

So, avoid those comments saying things like " i don’t think you have played all the builds and bla bla bla", because i have.

Most probably more than you.

But it doesn’t matter.

My primary builds was a S/D+ shortbow till the nerf, a 10-30-30 one, or rather, probably, the strongest build a thief could ever make.

Now that build, just like any S/D build, is totally crushed to absymal damage, where your main damage combo ( C&D + tactical strike) has been totally slaughtered.

With this set you would usually cripple your target with DD in order to land autoattacks and C&D easier, also dealing very good damage.

Now you can’t.

S/D damage has been halved, and now you can’t effectively pick up on bunkers anymore, since it was S/D primary purpose, while also being (maybe) the most effective 1vs1 build.

Now it’s not able not to deal with bunkers ( since they can outlast you pretty easily, due to halved damage and shorter daze on TS) and it’s also not as effective as it was before as a 1vs1 build.

S/D is not viable anymore at tourney level.

S/P may be viable, but it’s subpar to ele on roaming, and a S/P thief is ALL about roaming. It can still be used in some comps, but it’s overall a very gimmicky set up.

P/D condition based is our strongest build by far, currently. S/D builds were the only ones able to match up with condition based thief builds.

P/P is totally worthless. Anyone bringing this set in place of the shortbow should never put a step at tourneys.

There’re so many shortcuts for map control at foefire and especially on khylo ( teleporting to the clocktower with a sinlge skill+ teleport on the roof, two of the main reasons why the thief is even more important then the mesmer/ele stuff on treb) that without a shortbow you’re nothing more than an hinderance to your team.

Now you can believe whatever you want, keep on playing S/D if you want it so badly, as long as you don’t complain as soon as you put a step in paid tourneys against competitive teams, and the first wells necro destroys your convinctions about S/D viability.

sorrow.2364:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Hey guys heres a fellow Ranger talking.I think i can feel you.Theres no point to just nerf something (BS) but you must improv other features to make more builds viable.
Im sick and tired of seeing “shortbow-d/d BS power” thiefs in pvp..
So i say dont nerf the BS dmg if you wont Buff Pistols.
Its the same and the same thing over and over again
Necro——>cond. dmg
Thiefs——->burst with BS
Engi————>Support-bunkers
Guardians——>Super Bunkers
Warriors———>pretty much everything
Mesmers———>op in 1v1,roamers,dmg,Moa
Ele——->Bunkers(they got nerfed too but still good imo)
Rangers——>Bring some traps and cond dmg cause we cant find a Necro or GTFO

Ive heard before release that every prof here can do anything but as every mmo eventually there are 1-2 builds viable for every prof

Your point is invalid.
This isn’t about that just one build is viable, it is just that one build is overperforming compared to others, so everyone runs it.

Thieves have bunch of other builds, but since D/D deals insane damage and is extremely easy to use, everyone use it. There are some pro thieves which stay away from that spec, but it isn’t the only viable option.

It is the same with almost every other profession you listed, they have more than one viable spec, but people stick with one because the ease to use or because its effectiveness, with some exceptions obviously (Eles and Necro, for instance)

How Ranger got more than one viable spec?
And yes there are some other specs for every prof but just for 8v8 zergs..just check the QP and the big teams and tell me how many Bunker Guardians and how many GS Guardians you will find..

yes, we should nerf backstab. This doesnt make any sense that i cant run around with full power/precision/cond on my elementalist and get one shot. Thief are too op please nerf!

Have you played a warrior? I have a Theif and Warrior. A warriors burst will be MUCH higher…like 12-14k!! Any more nerfs to the Thief they will be 100% PvE Worthless.

Too many QQ’n players… crying Nerf them all!

If they want to nerf the burst on a burst class… then what do we get to keep us Pve viable?

I dont give a care about PvP. Dont ruin the game over PVP crybabies.

Notice the increase in warriors on the servers? There’s a reason for it.

Mrbig.8019:

Don’t start this discussion if you are going to be so dismissive, because you can’t absolutely know if i have/have not tried all those builds i mentioned.

I was an alpha tester, i had plenty of time ( more than 80% of people playing the game currently) to discover the best builds around, but some people could still say " it doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough to understand them" ( even without knowing how skilled i am).

I had 200+ victories on tourneys with my team ( which left long ago, waiting for a freaking ladder), but it doesn’t matter because some people could still argue "tourneys victories are worthless, since you just slaughtered pugs with a premade ( and they’re actually quite right) "

I have no QPs, due to not having a team anyore, and due to not having any desire in finding it, due to current state of PvP.
But even if i was one of those top tier players, some people could still argue that QPs leaderboard is simply a joke based upon farming mathces more than really being skilled ( and i strongely agree).

So, avoid those comments saying things like " i don’t think you have played all the builds and bla bla bla", because i have.

Most probably more than you.

But it doesn’t matter.

My primary builds was a S/D+ shortbow till the nerf, a 10-30-30 one, or rather, probably, the strongest build a thief could ever make.

Now that build, just like any S/D build, is totally crushed to absymal damage, where your main damage combo ( C&D + tactical strike) has been totally slaughtered.

With this set you would usually cripple your target with DD in order to land autoattacks and C&D easier, also dealing very good damage.

Now you can’t.

S/D damage has been halved, and now you can’t effectively pick up on bunkers anymore, since it was S/D primary purpose, while also being (maybe) the most effective 1vs1 build.

Now it’s not able not to deal with bunkers ( since they can outlast you pretty easily, due to halved damage and shorter daze on TS) and it’s also not as effective as it was before as a 1vs1 build.

S/D is not viable anymore at tourney level.

S/P may be viable, but it’s subpar to ele on roaming, and a S/P thief is ALL about roaming. It can still be used in some comps, but it’s overall a very gimmicky set up.

P/D condition based is our strongest build by far, currently. S/D builds were the only ones able to match up with condition based thief builds.

P/P is totally worthless. Anyone bringing this set in place of the shortbow should never put a step at tourneys.

There’re so many shortcuts for map control at foefire and especially on khylo ( teleporting to the clocktower with a sinlge skill+ teleport on the roof, two of the main reasons why the thief is even more important then the mesmer/ele stuff on treb) that without a shortbow you’re nothing more than an hinderance to your team.

Now you can believe whatever you want, keep on playing S/D if you want it so badly, as long as you don’t complain as soon as you put a step in paid tourneys against competitive teams, and the first wells necro destroys your convinctions about S/D viability.

You don’t need to post your curriculum vitae, since by my side, you could say you are the best tPvP player in the whole world, but to me those are only words said by a random guy on a forum without any backup.

If you say that those build are not viable, my obvious conclusion is that either you didn’t played them or you have no clue of the average build situation on other professions.

S/D is good against bunkers as long as FS retain its boon removal. To be honest, I didn’t played that build as a daze spammer and I never felt that my first damage output was CnD+Tactical Strike, so, to me, that build is still viable.

How S/P is inferior to eles roamers? The worse thief with a shortbow still is a better roamer than an ele.

Also, don’t forget that Guild Wars 2 isn’t tPvP, but there is more. Arguing about balance only around tPvP is a no-sense, because people actually play also sPvP, WvWvW and PvE. Shortbow is a must in tPvP, but probably P/P is better in WvWvW, sPvP or PvE. If it isn’t worth using in tPvP, it doesn’t mean that it globally sucks.

Dardamaniac.1295:

How Ranger got more than one viable spec?
And yes there are some other specs for every prof but just for 8v8 zergs..just check the QP and the big teams and tell me how many Bunker Guardians and how many GS Guardians you will find..

Saying this you just supported my argument.
There are many bunker guardians because that build is overperforming compared to others, so people use that build because of this, but it doesn’t mean that GS Guardians are bad or unviable, it is just that another damage build, probably BS, is overperforming compared to any burst-oriented build, so people prefer that build over anything else.
Once the overperforming build will be put on par with the others, you’ll see that more specs will grow up.
Just look at what the little, indirect, backstab nerf did, there are many other builds running around now, like P/D thieves, despite the fact that those builds were untouched.

let’s see
1. DD+SB (viable)
2. DD+PP(only newbs use, once you’re get used to the game, almost no one use this build)
3. DD+SD(hardly see anyone use it cuz it’s “almost impossible to use both” due to initiatives thief has
4. DD+DD(uber dumb)
5. DD+SP(same reason as above)
6. SD+SB (viable)
7. SD+PP(same as 2)
8. SD+SD(uber dumb)
9. SD+SP(dumb)
10. SP+SB(viable)
11. SP+PP(same as 2 and 7)
13. SP+SP(uber dumb)
14. PD + SB (never seen this build)
15. PD + SP (never seen this build)
16. PD + DP(never seen this build)
17. PD + SD(same as 11)
18. PD + PD (uber dumb)

i narrowed down all the builds for you
only THREE builds a decent thief would roll.
1. DD + SB
2. SD + SB
3. SP + SB
tell me how thief have viable of builds pls?

You forgot PD+DD, which isn’t bad and basically gives the standard Stealth+Sneak Attack PD access to Death Blossom and Heartseeker. You also forgot SB+DD, which is actually solid as a range-heavy power build. PD+PP isn’t on there, but is pretty bad.

DD+SD/SP isn’t bad, especially if you build for power and utilize IF as an easy closer before swapping to standard DD play. SD+SP offers excellent utility swaps at the cost of not having SB, but is very versatile.

The same-weapon builds are actually viable, if a bit more specialized. SB+SB, for instance, can get you some on-swap bonuses that will make pure SB a bit better, but on the whole the tradeoffs aren’t worth it. Wouldn’t call them “uber dumb”, just very specialized. I’ve encountered some beastly all-SB thieves on the field in particular.

I agree with your basic point though, the last patch in particular did its best to pare down the number of viable thief weapon setups. I still think there are more viable setups than people give credit for, but it is disheartening to see them diminished.

Yashino.5713:

let’s see
1. DD+SB (viable)
2. DD+PP(only newbs use, once you’re get used to the game, almost no one use this build)
3. DD+SD(hardly see anyone use it cuz it’s “almost impossible to use both” due to initiatives thief has
4. DD+DD(uber dumb)
5. DD+SP(same reason as above)
6. SD+SB (viable)
7. SD+PP(same as 2)
8. SD+SD(uber dumb)
9. SD+SP(dumb)
10. SP+SB(viable)
11. SP+PP(same as 2 and 7)
13. SP+SP(uber dumb)
14. PD + SB (never seen this build)
15. PD + SP (never seen this build)
16. PD + DP(never seen this build)
17. PD + SD(same as 11)
18. PD + PD (uber dumb)

i narrowed down all the builds for you
only THREE builds a decent thief would roll.
1. DD + SB
2. SD + SB
3. SP + SB
tell me how thief have viable of builds pls?

This is your personal opinion, I’m not arguing about opinions, starting from the fact that you dumped all the P/P sets.

By the way, 3 viable builds are still above average among all professions.

sorrow.2364:

Yashino.5713:

let’s see
1. DD+SB (viable)
2. DD+PP(only newbs use, once you’re get used to the game, almost no one use this build)
3. DD+SD(hardly see anyone use it cuz it’s “almost impossible to use both” due to initiatives thief has
4. DD+DD(uber dumb)
5. DD+SP(same reason as above)
6. SD+SB (viable)
7. SD+PP(same as 2)
8. SD+SD(uber dumb)
9. SD+SP(dumb)
10. SP+SB(viable)
11. SP+PP(same as 2 and 7)
13. SP+SP(uber dumb)
14. PD + SB (never seen this build)
15. PD + SP (never seen this build)
16. PD + DP(never seen this build)
17. PD + SD(same as 11)
18. PD + PD (uber dumb)

i narrowed down all the builds for you
only THREE builds a decent thief would roll.
1. DD + SB
2. SD + SB
3. SP + SB
tell me how thief have viable of builds pls?

This is your personal opinion, I’m not arguing about opinions, starting from the fact that you dumped all the P/P sets.

By the way, 3 viable builds are still above average among all professions.

above average?
im not trying to defend a class but lol above average to all?
stealth is all a thief have, take away stealth, what does that make them?

thief might has easy time kill glass cannon classes, but if you put some toughness to your gears, what can they do to you, but run away after failed to kill you

sorrow.2364:

….. Arguing about balance only around tPvP is a no-sense, because ……

Wrong.

balance comes ONLY on tPvP basis. For WvWvW and PvE there’s a whole another balance, skills can be split.

In tPvP, the thief has very short uses for power/crit builds, now they’re almost all reduced to D/D + shortbow as a glass cannon, basically no different from a warrior, forced into that dumb GS hundred blades bullkitten to be highly competitive.

This is not promoting build diversity.

This is not symptom of a good meta.

And saying that other builds can still be viable is just false advertising and misinformation spreading.

Ask to current “top tier” players how viable is any other thief builds aside condition P/D with/without venoms or D/D burst, and have a good laugh.

Where we’re going, we don’t need burst damage….

/puts on cool sunglasses

So.. P/D with SB = Never seen before? But i’ve seen people using it for cond build..

Shame he’s never seen it because p/d is currently one of our strongest builds

Yashino.5713:

above average?
im not trying to defend a class but lol above average to all?
stealth is all a thief have, take away stealth, what does that make them?

thief might has easy time kill glass cannon classes, but if you put some toughness to your gears, what can they do to you, but run away after failed to kill you

I was saying not about effectiveness, but about build variety.
Most professions have less than 3 build viable.

Mrbig.8019:

Wrong.

balance comes ONLY on tPvP basis. For WvWvW and PvE there’s a whole another balance, skills can be split.

In tPvP, the thief has very short uses for power/crit builds, now they’re almost all reduced to D/D + shortbow as a glass cannon, basically no different from a warrior, forced into that dumb GS hundred blades bullkitten to be highly competitive.

This is not promoting build diversity.

This is not symptom of a good meta.

And saying that other builds can still be viable is just false advertising and misinformation spreading.

Ask to current “top tier” players how viable is any other thief builds aside condition P/D with/without venoms or D/D burst, and have a good laugh.

Seems like that you didn’t get my point.
I said that there are outstanding build in terms of effectiveness that people abuse in order to be “competitive” in specific game modes. Those builds mainly exploits some insanely high capability in a specific sector (ex: bunker guardians), so people feel forced to use that build in order to be competitive because, if you use some other build, you aren’t performing in your full potential.
It isn’t that other builds are unviable, it is just that few builds are outstanding and they need to be put in-line for balance sake. Actually, other thief specs aren’t horrible or unusable, they are just not worth using because there is another spec who outstand in its role. That’s why you don’t see any burst guardian or tank thief, despite the fact that those builds are possible.

sorrow.2364:

Mrbig.8019:

Wrong.

balance comes ONLY on tPvP basis. For WvWvW and PvE there’s a whole another balance, skills can be split.

In tPvP, the thief has very short uses for power/crit builds, now they’re almost all reduced to D/D + shortbow as a glass cannon, basically no different from a warrior, forced into that dumb GS hundred blades bullkitten to be highly competitive.

This is not promoting build diversity.

This is not symptom of a good meta.

And saying that other builds can still be viable is just false advertising and misinformation spreading.

Ask to current “top tier” players how viable is any other thief builds aside condition P/D with/without venoms or D/D burst, and have a good laugh.

Seems like that you didn’t get my point.
I said that there are outstanding build in terms of effectiveness that people abuse in order to be “competitive” in specific game modes. Those builds mainly exploits some insanely high capability in a specific sector (ex: bunker guardians), so people feel forced to use that build in order to be competitive because, if you use some other build, you aren’t performing in your full potential.
It isn’t that other builds are unviable, it is just that few builds are outstanding and they need to be put in-line for balance sake. Actually, other thief specs aren’t horrible or unusable, they are just not worth using because there is another spec who outstand in its role. That’s why you don’t see any burst guardian or tank thief, despite the fact that those builds are possible.

but i agree there are viable builds aside the common ones.

the point is that viable =/= competitive.

You can play as a bunker thief with S/D+ pow-tuf-vit gear or cleric gear and be an indestructible bunker, but stealth doesn’t prevent capping so a thief will NEVER be a viable bunker , because stealth is too important for a bunker thief.

A blind thief, currently, will never be a good roamer because it deals less burst damage than D/D while not providing any relevant support in order to take a D/P thief over another proff.

Current “competitive” builds offer tons of versatility, and they SHOULD NEVER nerf them on non-competitive builds level, because it would simply reduce the amount of versatility the professions can offer.

The nerf on OH dagger and TS really removed 90% of thief balanced/dps builds, without compensating, leading to extrmely polarized gameplay.

I can’t understand how could someone be in favor of it.

The idea that a thief shouldn’t burst is ridiculous in the first place. It should burst but perhaps it shouldn’t burst as often. The whole profession rolls on bursting because of its dependence on initiative. If you want to nerf this class, the initiative needs to be limited in ways that make initiative a meaningful resource. Of course, that’s a fine line to uselessness as well.

I’m on the fence with this one. There are things I would like to see a thief more useful for and less dependent on. I agree with one poster here … seems the recent changes are actually driving thieves towards this gimmicky build for a burst player.

Obtena.7952:

The idea that a thief shouldn’t burst is ridiculous in the first place. It should burst but perhaps it shouldn’t burst as often. The whole profession rolls on bursting because of its dependence on initiative. If you want to nerf this class, the initiative needs to be limited in ways that make initiative a meaningful resource.

Other classes can “burst” a lot more often than a thief can.

That’s nice but how is that relevant to thieves? I’m not saying other classes shouldn’t burst or how often they should. I am saying that burst makes sense for thieves based on how the concept of initiative is implemented.

Obtena.7952:

That’s nice but how is that relevant to thieves?

The fact that they have the lowest survivability…idk…maybe?…just maybe?

So other classes that burst alot more has something to do with thieves having the lowest survivability? Maybe. I still don’t see how that’s relevant to the fact that burst makes sense for thieves so calls for it to be nerfed are nonsense.

Obtena.7952:

The whole profession rolls on bursting because of its dependence on initiative.

The “balance your initiative above X” traits say otherwise. Initiative gives the potential for burst, but it doesn’t force it. Initiative management to keep it above a certain threshold for sustaining higher numbers is another beneficial attribute of initiative.

Mrbig.8019:

but i agree there are viable builds aside the common ones.

the point is that viable =/= competitive.

You can play as a bunker thief with S/D+ pow-tuf-vit gear or cleric gear and be an indestructible bunker, but stealth doesn’t prevent capping so a thief will NEVER be a viable bunker , because stealth is too important for a bunker thief.

A blind thief, currently, will never be a good roamer because it deals less burst damage than D/D while not providing any relevant support in order to take a D/P thief over another proff.

Current “competitive” builds offer tons of versatility, and they SHOULD NEVER nerf them on non-competitive builds level, because it would simply reduce the amount of versatility the professions can offer.

The nerf on OH dagger and TS really removed 90% of thief balanced/dps builds, without compensating, leading to extrmely polarized gameplay.

I can’t understand how could someone be in favor of it.

Competitive is the thin difference between viable and “there is something way better around”, which is exactly what I’m talking about.

While a guardian can outlast every other profession when speccing as tank, none is going to bring another profession other than guardian in their team to play that role. So, despite the fact that bunker thief is viable (not speccing into Shadow Arts but into Arcobatic/unlimited dodges), people will never get a thief over a guardian in their team because it isn’t “competitive” (read: because there is something better around).

Once guardian’s tank capability will be put inline, probably people will start looking for a valid alternative. Probably there will be more variety or probably we’ll end up on another “must have” profession which still outperform every bunker in the game, which need to be toned down also, until every profession can play tank as effective as every other profession do, according to what ArenaNet originally intended. This is how balance works in my opinion.