Guild Wars 2

i feel the problem with thieves is that they are very binary in how they are: either they melt your face or they fail hard at it, there is no middle ground.

that leaves them into an unfortunate situation: do you make thieves good for average players meaning they WILL be op in the hand of those few pros or do you make them balanced at top level meaning they will likely suck in the hands of anyone who isn’t a demigod (and has a kitten good connection)

imho they need some kind of rework more than they need a buff

Shockwave.1230:

In a team fight I think staff Ele has it easier, but in 1v1s D/P thief would definitely have it easier.

It’s all situational as to what’s better when though

That is a much more reasonable assessment. Thank you.

As for the guy who is posting images of poor damage on a backstab, I can just as easily show you (thanks to someone who posted this glorious moment of mine going down pretty hard and bad looking) just how much I personally loose from the same attack. It all depend on who you hit.

In PvP people tend to be bunkerish because the game is a conquest one where he who stays in the ring wins. My lava font also do very unspectacular damage on them. Beside, thieves rarely only unleash one lone backstab when they unload their ini…

In WvW the build diversity tend to vary a lot more (my perception) even if there is a trend for bunker that I suspect is in large part the result of people being 3 shots by thieves once too many times. I know I was and how frustrating it can be to not even know what hit us until it’s too late to come back… being stomped by an invisible foe is the nail on the coffin.

a) wvw doesn’t even TRY to be balanced
b) wvw has many more bad players than pvp has
c) wvw builds have diff priorities than just dueling

of course there is more build diversity, i can run GS/rifle warrior roaming and do 1v2 and pretend GS and rifles are good weapons for pvp just because of the average quality of roamers.

and of course zerg oriented builds are another beast entirely.

adozu.6398:

a) wvw doesn’t even TRY to be balanced
b) wvw has many more bad players than pvp has
c) wvw builds have diff priorities than just dueling

of course there is more build diversity, i can run GS/rifle warrior roaming and do 1v2 and pretend GS and rifles are good weapons for pvp just because of the average quality of roamers.

and of course zerg oriented builds are another beast entirely.

Hence why I said i disagree with all other prof having it easier. It depend on context. In WvW I would probably shed as many tears for a thief as you would a d/d celestial ele in pvp.

SinisterWraith.2910:

From what I have been reading on these forums. The Thief has literally been nerf’d into the ground and unplayable in PvP.

You are right, the game is full of easy mode AoE and CC, Condi builds etc that deal way more damage than a skill shot like back stab. I think if you are wanting a melee play Warrior, if you want a stealth toon play Ranger. Thief is dead.

Kocoff.7582:

Thieves are really weak.
The problem with thieves is this: the longer the fight, the lesser your chances of survival.

Can we please be serious? there are still people who havent tried the class and putting out inaccurate comments like this could kill the class.

I’m pvp rank 80 and ive played necro since release, then played thief for the past 3 months with a little guardian in between and i can tell you thief class is very far from weak. The problem is closed minded builds.

I have no clue where this idea of running either s/d or d/p came from, or the 2/0/0/6/6 craze. Lets not forget this popular idea that you HAVE to run shadow refuge. Open up the builds guys. I run an evade style 5/0/0/3/6 with no shadow refuge and no bow and I can tell you this set up has proven to be HIGHLY effective.

It fits well into my evade play style instead of going into stealth every 2 seconds and wasting everyone’s time. Its a lot more rewarding because the build is heavily dependent on split second decisions. I worry much less about CDs like most thieves would in a long fight. The damage is there, the cleanses are there and I can take on multiple decent players at the same time (sometimes)

For me this build surpasses the meta people seem to base the class’ pvp viability on because i built it based on my play style.

My point is, the meta build or whatever build theory crafters come up with that is supposed to be “viable” could really be useless if it doesn’t fit your play style and it could lead you to think the class is “weak”

Ragion.2831:

SinisterWraith.2910:

From what I have been reading on these forums. The Thief has literally been nerf’d into the ground and unplayable in PvP.

You are right, the game is full of easy mode AoE and CC, Condi builds etc that deal way more damage than a skill shot like back stab. I think if you are wanting a melee play Warrior, if you want a stealth toon play Ranger. Thief is dead.

Kocoff.7582:

Thieves are really weak.
The problem with thieves is this: the longer the fight, the lesser your chances of survival.

Can we please be serious? there are still people who havent tried the class and putting out inaccurate comments like this could kill the class.

I’m pvp rank 80 and ive played necro since release, then played thief for the past 3 months with a little guardian in between and i can tell you thief class is very far from weak. The problem is closed minded builds.

I have no clue where this idea of running either s/d or d/p came from, or the 2/0/0/6/6 craze. Lets not forget this popular idea that you HAVE to run shadow refuge. Open up the builds guys. I run an evade style 5/0/0/3/6 with no shadow refuge and no bow and I can tell you this set up has proven to be HIGHLY effective.

It fits well into my evade play style instead of going into stealth every 2 seconds and wasting everyone’s time. Its a lot more rewarding because the build is heavily dependent on split second decisions. I worry much less about CDs like most thieves would in a long fight. The damage is there, the cleanses are there and I can take on multiple decent players at the same time (sometimes)

For me this build surpasses the meta people seem to base the class’ pvp viability on because i built it based on my play style.

My point is, the meta build or whatever build theory crafters come up with that is supposed to be “viable” could really be useless if it doesn’t fit your play style and it could lead you to think the class is “weak”

I wouldnt mind seeing it in action, have any vids perhaps?

thieves are not issues, it is celestial might stacking meta allowing bunkerish classes still do too much dmg while having silly amount of healing and tankiness overall

looking at the past patches, i doubt anything would change in ANY positive direction for thieves, ever… however everyone is already fed up with current “cheese” so maybe anet will listen for once and change meta a bit overall

adozu.6398:

a) wvw doesn’t even TRY to be balanced
b) wvw has many more bad players than pvp has
c) wvw builds have diff priorities than just dueling

of course there is more build diversity, i can run GS/rifle warrior roaming and do 1v2 and pretend GS and rifles are good weapons for pvp just because of the average quality of roamers.

and of course zerg oriented builds are another beast entirely.

A) True.
B) Very true.
C) Would hope so. Though, some people spec for roaming/dueling… more specialized builds.

Though, for thief not sure about the diversity. You can be a roamer (condi, or power)… or you can be some piece of garbage in a zerg (better to just roll another class).

Keyboard are you running full shadow arts? One of those screenshots said stealth healed you….

Build your thief properly before complaining about it. Thieves already have more than enough dps against other zerker classes, probably too much really. However, against the celestial garbage of this meta I’d agree the damage is a little less than it should be.

So what’s the fix? Raise the damage and you’ll never see another burst ele or mesmer of any type in spvp. I say don’t touch the thief and reduce either the defense or offense of the common celestial builds to re-gain balance.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Shockwave.1230:

In a team fight I think staff Ele has it easier, but in 1v1s D/P thief would definitely have it easier.

It’s all situational as to what’s better when though

That is a much more reasonable assessment. Thank you.

As for the guy who is posting images of poor damage on a backstab, I can just as easily show you (thanks to someone who posted this glorious moment of mine going down pretty hard and bad looking) just how much I personally loose from the same attack. It all depend on who you hit.

In PvP people tend to be bunkerish because the game is a conquest one where he who stays in the ring wins. My lava font also do very unspectacular damage on them. Beside, thieves rarely only unleash one lone backstab when they unload their ini…

First, we are talking about damage in pvp here, you link a video in wvw, other classes can burst even more in wvw. I guess you should clear your mind first before posting stuff here.

Thieves rarely only unleash one backstab, right, like other classes only unleash one skill at a time.

Ragion.2831:

SinisterWraith.2910:

From what I have been reading on these forums. The Thief has literally been nerf’d into the ground and unplayable in PvP.

You are right, the game is full of easy mode AoE and CC, Condi builds etc that deal way more damage than a skill shot like back stab. I think if you are wanting a melee play Warrior, if you want a stealth toon play Ranger. Thief is dead.

Kocoff.7582:

Thieves are really weak.
The problem with thieves is this: the longer the fight, the lesser your chances of survival.

Can we please be serious? there are still people who havent tried the class and putting out inaccurate comments like this could kill the class.

I’m pvp rank 80 and ive played necro since release, then played thief for the past 3 months with a little guardian in between and i can tell you thief class is very far from weak. The problem is closed minded builds.

I have no clue where this idea of running either s/d or d/p came from, or the 2/0/0/6/6 craze. Lets not forget this popular idea that you HAVE to run shadow refuge. Open up the builds guys. I run an evade style 5/0/0/3/6 with no shadow refuge and no bow and I can tell you this set up has proven to be HIGHLY effective.

It fits well into my evade play style instead of going into stealth every 2 seconds and wasting everyone’s time. Its a lot more rewarding because the build is heavily dependent on split second decisions. I worry much less about CDs like most thieves would in a long fight. The damage is there, the cleanses are there and I can take on multiple decent players at the same time (sometimes)

For me this build surpasses the meta people seem to base the class’ pvp viability on because i built it based on my play style.

My point is, the meta build or whatever build theory crafters come up with that is supposed to be “viable” could really be useless if it doesn’t fit your play style and it could lead you to think the class is “weak”

What a touching statement, but hummm… every one has a keyboard can type these kitten. Show some proof or don’t BS here, you can take multiple players at the same time with no SA setup. this is the biggest word I read so far on this forum.

Hype.8032:

Keyboard are you running full shadow arts? One of those screenshots said stealth healed you….

Build your thief properly before complaining about it. Thieves already have more than enough dps against other zerker classes, probably too much really. However, against the celestial garbage of this meta I’d agree the damage is a little less than it should be.

So what’s the fix? Raise the damage and you’ll never see another burst ele or mesmer of any type in spvp. I say don’t touch the thief and reduce either the defense or offense of the common celestial builds to re-gain balance.

I would love to see your build up and play style in pvp, you probably spend more time laying on the ground or fleeing than fighting…. still please put evidence or proof here to support your point like I did . Everyone has a mouth can say, hi you are wrong… and basically this kind of communication is just useless crap.

Ragion.2831:

SinisterWraith.2910:

From what I have been reading on these forums. The Thief has literally been nerf’d into the ground and unplayable in PvP.

You are right, the game is full of easy mode AoE and CC, Condi builds etc that deal way more damage than a skill shot like back stab. I think if you are wanting a melee play Warrior, if you want a stealth toon play Ranger. Thief is dead.

Kocoff.7582:

Thieves are really weak.
The problem with thieves is this: the longer the fight, the lesser your chances of survival.

Can we please be serious? there are still people who havent tried the class and putting out inaccurate comments like this could kill the class.

I’m pvp rank 80 and ive played necro since release, then played thief for the past 3 months with a little guardian in between and i can tell you thief class is very far from weak. The problem is closed minded builds.

I have no clue where this idea of running either s/d or d/p came from, or the 2/0/0/6/6 craze. Lets not forget this popular idea that you HAVE to run shadow refuge. Open up the builds guys. I run an evade style 5/0/0/3/6 with no shadow refuge and no bow and I can tell you this set up has proven to be HIGHLY effective.

It fits well into my evade play style instead of going into stealth every 2 seconds and wasting everyone’s time. Its a lot more rewarding because the build is heavily dependent on split second decisions. I worry much less about CDs like most thieves would in a long fight. The damage is there, the cleanses are there and I can take on multiple decent players at the same time (sometimes)

For me this build surpasses the meta people seem to base the class’ pvp viability on because i built it based on my play style.

My point is, the meta build or whatever build theory crafters come up with that is supposed to be “viable” could really be useless if it doesn’t fit your play style and it could lead you to think the class is “weak”

Woah, woah, woah! Don’t go around telling people about 5/0/0/3/6. That one’s mine!

I’ve mained thief almost since the start and before that I mained ele who became on and off for 2 years. I now play a bit of medi guard.

I think the damage output for thieves is fine, like a few others have said it is the Celestial bunker builds that are the problem. Warriors are able to output similar damage whilst having great sustain and bunker levels of defense. So really, these kinds of bunker builds shouldn’t be able to do that much damage.

My medi guard can output higher burst than my thief whilst having better sustain, I have a much easier time 1v1ing the bunker builds with my guard than with my thief.

When we disengage from a fight in stealth, to replenish ourselves, it usually allows the opponent to also replenish to full and reset their skill cooldowns so it’s not like we become 100% whilst the opponent are stuck on 40% from the previous fight. All while they hold the point and up their score.

TLDR; Thief is fine, nerf celestial.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Shockwave.1230:

In a team fight I think staff Ele has it easier, but in 1v1s D/P thief would definitely have it easier.

It’s all situational as to what’s better when though

That is a much more reasonable assessment. Thank you.

As for the guy who is posting images of poor damage on a backstab, I can just as easily show you (thanks to someone who posted this glorious moment of mine going down pretty hard and bad looking) just how much I personally loose from the same attack. It all depend on who you hit.

In PvP people tend to be bunkerish because the game is a conquest one where he who stays in the ring wins. My lava font also do very unspectacular damage on them. Beside, thieves rarely only unleash one lone backstab when they unload their ini…

First, we are talking about damage in pvp here, you link a video in wvw, other classes can burst even more in wvw. I guess you should clear your mind first before posting stuff here.

Thieves rarely only unleash one backstab, right, like other classes only unleash one skill at a time.

First, WvW is a player vs player mode. The thief in the vid is a human player as far as I know.

Second, what changes in pvp greatly impact on WvW too. Sadly…

Third, it absolutely doesn’t change my stance about anything being “easy” being dependent on context.

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

Narkodx.1472:

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

well, 26600 build is one of the major build in pvp, same as 20606, you are probably a new player here, look around this forum, you will find a lot people talking about 26600 build.

Lygon.4896:

I’ve mained thief almost since the start and before that I mained ele who became on and off for 2 years. I now play a bit of medi guard.

I think the damage output for thieves is fine, like a few others have said it is the Celestial bunker builds that are the problem. Warriors are able to output similar damage whilst having great sustain and bunker levels of defense. So really, these kinds of bunker builds shouldn’t be able to do that much damage.

My medi guard can output higher burst than my thief whilst having better sustain, I have a much easier time 1v1ing the bunker builds with my guard than with my thief.

When we disengage from a fight in stealth, to replenish ourselves, it usually allows the opponent to also replenish to full and reset their skill cooldowns so it’s not like we become 100% whilst the opponent are stuck on 40% from the previous fight. All while they hold the point and up their score.

TLDR; Thief is fine, nerf celestial.

This is the exact reason, why thief’s burst is too low, other class are tankier and has more HP, yet, the burst damage is higher than thieves, this doesn’t make sense.

If thief is that bad why 3 of 5 roamers are thieves?

5500 damage, 3 times, 16k in about 3 sec, see picture here, this burst is way better than thief, tankier and more hp. RANGE damage.

10k damage in 2 hit, about 2-3 sec, again, better than thief. and tankier, more hp, more cc.

You have 11k+ hp and i think you run with something totaly inpossible stats, traits

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

What a touching statement, but hummm… every one has a keyboard can type these kitten. Show some proof or don’t BS here, you can take multiple players at the same time with no SA setup. this is the biggest word I read so far on this forum.

Winning fights vs multiple players is more than doable without SA, it’s just harder and involves a lot more kiting. Just because you personally can’t do it, doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

well, 26600 build is one of the major build in pvp, same as 20606, you are probably a new player here, look around this forum, you will find a lot people talking about 26600 build.

Actually, those are major builds for WvW as stealth is stupidly good for that game mode and because damage is higher in WvW due to equipment choices not being as limited. These two things make these builds viable where they may not be otherwise.

PvP has its own meta based on the fact that stealth actually hurts your teams’ performance in a point capture based game. Try 2/6/0/0/6, 6/0/2/0/6 or 5/6/0/0/3 for D/P, depending on what works better for you and for your team.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

well, 26600 build is one of the major build in pvp, same as 20606, you are probably a new player here, look around this forum, you will find a lot people talking about 26600 build.

Every single time you respond you cement the fact you are a noob

No top player uses Shadow Arts in pvp – this is NOT wvw

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

What a touching statement, but hummm… every one has a keyboard can type these kitten. Show some proof or don’t BS here, you can take multiple players at the same time with no SA setup. this is the biggest word I read so far on this forum.

Winning fights vs multiple players is more than doable without SA, it’s just harder and involves a lot more kiting. Just because you personally can’t do it, doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

well, 26600 build is one of the major build in pvp, same as 20606, you are probably a new player here, look around this forum, you will find a lot people talking about 26600 build.

Actually, those are major builds for WvW as stealth is stupidly good for that game mode and because damage is higher in WvW due to equipment choices not being as limited. These two things make these builds viable where they may not be otherwise.

PvP has its own meta based on the fact that stealth actually hurts your teams’ performance in a point capture based game. Try 2/6/0/0/6, 6/0/2/0/6 or 5/6/0/0/3 for D/P, depending on what works better for you and for your team.

This guy breaks it down for you

Why are we comparing thief burst to other classes? You guys know matching damage for damage is the fastest way to break the balance right?

Ragion.2831:

Why are we comparing thief burst to other classes? You guys know matching damage for damage is the fastest way to break the balance right?

Nah… it’s totally the correct way to do it. That and balancing in a vacuum and basing balance decision on the top players and just randomly pulling them out of your ____.

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Narkodx.1472:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

What a touching statement, but hummm… every one has a keyboard can type these kitten. Show some proof or don’t BS here, you can take multiple players at the same time with no SA setup. this is the biggest word I read so far on this forum.

Winning fights vs multiple players is more than doable without SA, it’s just harder and involves a lot more kiting. Just because you personally can’t do it, doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

well, 26600 build is one of the major build in pvp, same as 20606, you are probably a new player here, look around this forum, you will find a lot people talking about 26600 build.

Actually, those are major builds for WvW as stealth is stupidly good for that game mode and because damage is higher in WvW due to equipment choices not being as limited. These two things make these builds viable where they may not be otherwise.

PvP has its own meta based on the fact that stealth actually hurts your teams’ performance in a point capture based game. Try 2/6/0/0/6, 6/0/2/0/6 or 5/6/0/0/3 for D/P, depending on what works better for you and for your team.

This guy breaks it down for you

Again, probably lots of you here make your statement while your thief is level 20.

I saw a lot thieves play those build, trust me, they spent more time lay down on the ground than in a fight.

I don’t think any one of you here can show me or play with me your 26006 build in the game, please, don’t simply open your big mouth and bla bla here. or we can even duel, you 26006, me 26600, see who is the last stand. what a joke.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

I apparently haven’t conveyed my point properly. The thief walks a fine line between OP and UP. Right now it is balanced pretty well. Whether you win or lose is entirely based on your skill. We (thieves) have repeatable evasion, high amounts of dodges, high mobility, and ample amounts of blind and weakness. While it’s true that other classes have much higher CC, HP, and invulns, our lack of control and tankiness is offset by our active defenses. Therein lies the rub. The other classes have much more passive defense and inherent ability to survive, but if you wait for the opportune time to strike, you can control the fight.

I am going to suggest that you trait glassier since you have mentioned 6 in SA in sPvP. I would recommend something like:
5/0/0/3/6
6/0/2/0/6
2/6/0/0/6

With the first listed above, against glassy targets (shatter mes, S/F zerk ele, zerk nec) in sPvP, I max out at around a 7.5k BS. If you haven’t played these before, you’ll probably die a lot at first, but as soon as you learn the other classes builds and rotations (very important) you’ll find that we hold a niche the other classes don’t. It’s not the highest burst though. We excel at stomp prevention (via stability strip, SR, repeatable interrupts) and picking off targets in small group fights.

Until you have more experience with these builds, I would recommend avoiding cele ele, terror nec, cele engineer, and some warriors (some warrior fights are easy, some are extremely difficult, and this is not necessarily build based).

For a long time, playing Mesmer, I thought Thieves were totally OP. Now maining Thief in PvP… Wow, just wow.. ANET nerfed the class UNDER the turf.

Yes there are a couple out there who thrash everyone they encounter. Yes some of the thieves I’ve met have had a pretty cruddy attitude and liked to laugh at whomever they killed.

Wow ANET, what did you leave thieves? Two other classes have higher stealth AND higher damage oh and better healing too. And in the case of Rangers, far superior range.

The idea that stealth is OP is a toxic myth. Mesmers have had similar problems in the past.

I’m laughing at people who QQ thieves. I sincerely apologize for believing the class was OP

Ithilwen.1529:

For a long time, playing Mesmer, I thought Thieves were totally OP. Now maining Thief in PvP… Wow, just wow.. ANET nerfed the class UNDER the turf.

Yes there are a couple out there who thrash everyone they encounter. Yes some of the thieves I’ve met have had a pretty cruddy attitude and liked to laugh at whomever they killed.

Wow ANET, what did you leave thieves? Two other classes have higher stealth AND higher damage oh and better healing too. And in the case of Rangers, far superior range.

The idea that stealth is OP is a toxic myth. Mesmers have had similar problems in the past.

I’m laughing at people who QQ thieves. I sincerely apologize for believing the class was OP

Again, it all depend on what game mode we are looking at. In s or tpvp thieves are not OP at all I totally agree. In WvW that is a completely different reality.

Ideally, WvW and pvp skills and traits should be balanced independently. They are not. Also, where stealth can be a hindrance most of the time in pvp it is nearly godmode in WvW. The problem is that any changes based on one game mode will affect the other and thief is especially vulnerable to that reality. There are legitimate QQ and some that are not.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

What a touching statement, but hummm… every one has a keyboard can type these kitten. Show some proof or don’t BS here, you can take multiple players at the same time with no SA setup. this is the biggest word I read so far on this forum.

Winning fights vs multiple players is more than doable without SA, it’s just harder and involves a lot more kiting. Just because you personally can’t do it, doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

well, 26600 build is one of the major build in pvp, same as 20606, you are probably a new player here, look around this forum, you will find a lot people talking about 26600 build.

Actually, those are major builds for WvW as stealth is stupidly good for that game mode and because damage is higher in WvW due to equipment choices not being as limited. These two things make these builds viable where they may not be otherwise.

PvP has its own meta based on the fact that stealth actually hurts your teams’ performance in a point capture based game. Try 2/6/0/0/6, 6/0/2/0/6 or 5/6/0/0/3 for D/P, depending on what works better for you and for your team.

This guy breaks it down for you

Again, probably lots of you here make your statement while your thief is level 20.

I saw a lot thieves play those build, trust me, they spent more time lay down on the ground than in a fight.

I don’t think any one of you here can show me or play with me your 26006 build in the game, please, don’t simply open your big mouth and bla bla here. or we can even duel, you 26006, me 26600, see who is the last stand. what a joke.

I play 2/0/2/4/6 S/D, have done for the best part of a year. Go through my post history if you want proof of this. I played 3 solo que tourney games yesterday, died once because I was in the wrong place, won all 3 games. Not running full SA in sPvP is more than doable with good results, so please try not to insult people who are trying to give you good advice.

Since you’re still talking about duelling, you clearly don’t get the point of sPvP. You’re not there to duel in sPvP, as the thief you’re the roamer. That means you use your mobility to keep unguarded enemy points uncapped and to make team fights swing in your favour by bursting down something to make that 2v2 on mid a 3v1.

Sure, you’re a better duellist with SA if you’re not as experienced with other builds, but by duelling a hambow on point you waste time that could have been better spent decapping far point and ensuring we win the fight at mid, and you won’t even contest your point as you’re in stealth 75% of the time. You’ll live, but you’ll lose the point and potentially the game. That’s why SA is a bad idea for sPvP.

If you still can’t see that saying thief burst is too low when you’re using a build that gives up damage for survivability is a flawed argument, then that’s your problem. Have a nice day

Pretty sure dueling is more applicable for WvW, where people do it for “fun” rather than anything productive.

sPvP-wise it has little place, unless you’re causing delay for opponents to cap points… like if you’re keeping 2-3 people occupied while the rest of your team is capping, then sure, but the point is not to kill the 2-3 people, it’s to simply distract them while your team has an easier time capping. (Just a made up example).

There is very limited room in SPvp for thiefs these days but we have our roles and that is mobility we can decap like no Other and focus fire on 1 weak target to turn THE tides in a teamfight but Forget 1v1 against cele builds/guards/most engi’s and other tanky builds

In this case iT is better to just leave the point and run around decapping and turning fights this is why we are still in meta but iT limits THE class

Well they might have a lesser burst. But they have the most impredictable one. Which is why they are still balanced.

Well I just encountered thief who’s backstab did 6.5k on me while I had protection buff plus 3.3k armor. Any class that have autoattack that high should be nerfed and give it some diversity.

Its not a qq post but seriously 4x autoattacks that do 10k in one rotation is just abysmal. It must be toned down by 50% because of near perma stealth and blindness.

P.S. I didnt mention heartseaker and its 5,6k crits….

Ragnarox.9601:

Well I just encountered thief who’s backstab did 6.5k on me while I had protection buff plus 3.3k armor. Any class that have autoattack that high

Stopped reading right there.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Just to drive the point home how much of a difference your traits can make in your burst output (especially in PvP), I’ve attached a few pictures.

2,541 Steal
3,191 C&D
8,096 BS

If you look at my cooldown timers, that 13,828 damage happened in about 1 second. Yes this is a zerk v. zerk fight, but the damage doesn’t really need to be higher, just some of the thief weapon skills and utilities need tweaking.

I’ll weigh in. I play a DD Cele Ele as my main.

In the current meta of celestial professions, the idea of a profession built on bursting an enemy down quickly just doesn’t make sense. On my ele, I can usually survive a Thief’s burst rotation and turn the fight by simply using lightning shield into an updraft/blazing speed/lightning flash/fire grab/drake’s breath combo. It’s just too easy to still be tanky while tossing out bits of damage here and there on a lot of other professions for a Thief to handle for too long.

The longer the fight lasts, the higher the chance is the Thief will lose.

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Just to drive the point home how much of a difference your traits can make in your burst output (especially in PvP), I’ve attached a few pictures.

2,541 Steal
3,191 C&D
8,096 BS

If you look at my cooldown timers, that 13,828 damage happened in about 1 second. Yes this is a zerk v. zerk fight, but the damage doesn’t really need to be higher, just some of the thief weapon skills and utilities need tweaking.

That’s also a very ideal matchup. One that is really rare to be had in the current meta. Also, that’s assuming your enemy will let you CnD and BS them. I can’t speak for others, but when I see a Thief stealth, I know he’s going to try to BS me so I either move out of the immediate area I know they are, or I use a number of other defensive maneuvers like rolling. BS is just too easy to counter and the reveal debuff is crippling. The whole time reveal is ticking, the Thief either needs to GTFO, or roll around as fast as they can because condi’s and AoE will definitely be flying around enough to take them out before they can even stealth and try again, giving them another chance to fail.

Other classes have a lot more forgiveness with their damage/defense/healing mechanics where Thieves get very little to no forgiveness. Mess up on a Thief, you’re dead. Mess up a bit with an engi/guard, just use some defensives and you’ll be fine.

Anomaly.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Just to drive the point home how much of a difference your traits can make in your burst output (especially in PvP), I’ve attached a few pictures.

2,541 Steal
3,191 C&D
8,096 BS

If you look at my cooldown timers, that 13,828 damage happened in about 1 second. Yes this is a zerk v. zerk fight, but the damage doesn’t really need to be higher, just some of the thief weapon skills and utilities need tweaking.

That’s also a very ideal matchup. One that is really rare to be had in the current meta. Also, that’s assuming your enemy will let you CnD and BS them. I can’t speak for others, but when I see a Thief stealth, I know he’s going to try to BS me so I either move out of the immediate area I know they are, or I use a number of other defensive maneuvers like rolling. BS is just too easy to counter and the reveal debuff is crippling. The whole time reveal is ticking, the Thief either needs to GTFO, or roll around as fast as they can because condi’s and AoE will definitely be flying around enough to take them out before they can even stealth and try again, giving them another chance to fail.

Other classes have a lot more forgiveness with their damage/defense/healing mechanics where Thieves get very little to no forgiveness. Mess up on a Thief, you’re dead. Mess up a bit with an engi/guard, just use some defensives and you’ll be fine.

Yeah, that one is an ideal matchup. Cele ele/engi is definitely a hard matchup and I would hesitate to jump on either one in a 1v1 (especially engi as eles at least lock themselves out of attunements). If you sit off to the side and wait for them to hit 50ish% in a group fight, while keeping up poison from SB, you can burst right before a heal causing a down or retreat. Ideally in a team fight against an ele, you wait for armor of earth to pop, wait for the switch out of water (to air usually) and steal to grab the stability to ignore the lighting aura they’ll try to counter with. It might not kill them, but usually removes them from the fight.

What I’m trying to say is that you can’t scale up the burst due to the other thief mechanics. Some utilities and weapon skills could use some tweaking.

Not going to disagree with you at all on guards though. The scale of their healing and number of blocks/blinds/minor heals makes landing a successful burst extremely dangerous to attempt.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

What a touching statement, but hummm… every one has a keyboard can type these kitten. Show some proof or don’t BS here, you can take multiple players at the same time with no SA setup. this is the biggest word I read so far on this forum.

Winning fights vs multiple players is more than doable without SA, it’s just harder and involves a lot more kiting. Just because you personally can’t do it, doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Narkodx.1472:

You obviously are a new player – You are using shadows rejuv in pvp

You have no basis to make any claims about the balance of this game

well, 26600 build is one of the major build in pvp, same as 20606, you are probably a new player here, look around this forum, you will find a lot people talking about 26600 build.

Actually, those are major builds for WvW as stealth is stupidly good for that game mode and because damage is higher in WvW due to equipment choices not being as limited. These two things make these builds viable where they may not be otherwise.

PvP has its own meta based on the fact that stealth actually hurts your teams’ performance in a point capture based game. Try 2/6/0/0/6, 6/0/2/0/6 or 5/6/0/0/3 for D/P, depending on what works better for you and for your team.

This guy breaks it down for you

Again, probably lots of you here make your statement while your thief is level 20.

I saw a lot thieves play those build, trust me, they spent more time lay down on the ground than in a fight.

I don’t think any one of you here can show me or play with me your 26006 build in the game, please, don’t simply open your big mouth and bla bla here. or we can even duel, you 26006, me 26600, see who is the last stand. what a joke.

Look, I’m not sure if you’re a troll or not, but please take a look on twitch/youtube at any high level pvp game featuring a thief. Or watch someone like caed/sizer/magictoker, these guys are some of the best pvp thieves in the game. Abosultely no thief you’ll find playing pvp at those levels will be using 6 SA, with the only build that specs into it just takes 2 points for the condi removal(that’s the d/p panic strike 60206).

Most classes are in a good state in regards to tpvp game modes

I think mesmer, thief, guardian and warrior are actually all pretty balanced, at least in team pvp queue.

I think necro and ranger are balanced, but the way it was done is rather poor. Necro is balanced only because of passive autoprocs and ranger is balanced because of pew pew #2. Kinda crappy the way dev’s did it.

I think engineer and elemental are op right now. At least with the cele builds. Its too much offensive ability with defensive ability.

Dueling builds a different story, but every class has its cheese build. I am speaking only of pvp builds and game mode.

Just wanted to post this here. This happened for me today. You all should stop using shadow arts/acro. It ridiculously buffs your survival while ridiculously nerfing damage.

(yes, this is my serious build that I use in ranked pvp matches.)

I’m maining thief atm (PvX player), I tried the, boon share build with stealing that Sizer supposedly uses, but it sucks in most matches. Celestial or other aoe heavy builds (rabid engie) beats the crap out of it, as do condi bursts.

This build is only good against other melee professions without burst. Then you can win. Or to snipe support in a battle, sneaking boon steals/shares around to enemy is distracted. But otherwise? completely useless. Celestial ele (I didn’t want to role the meta, but i had to try it to know the diff) is so much more allround, better and usefull. You just spam skills and, try to put some strategy with it, and you survive most of time, even kill enemies with it).

If this continues thief has no place in pvp. Warrior 6k hp more, 400 armor more… Even autoattacks, warrior often hits harder then thief. Even you susbracts 6k hp from warrior. And let both warrior/thief (zerker) auto attack each other to dead, warrior will will win most of time (hammer, gs, sword, axe, auto attack). Wtf? +Thief is single target but very heavy burst. It should be way better then aoe, stun focussed warrior (and tank focussed warrior noonetheless). Just unfair but wathever.

A thief’s strength in PvP is not about winning 1v1s by standing still and autoattacking warriors. Ignoring the fact that s/d(sizer’s build) CAN win pretty much any 1v1 in the game, it’s main advantage is the mobility, there is literally no class in the game that can come close to thief mobility. Comparing classes by who can do more damage in a 1v1 is silly.

Here are some reasons to take a thief over a warrior: decapping, stealth stomp prevention, interrupting stability stomps, countering other DPS classes(mesmer mostly), stripping lich form stability, +1ing fights, stealth crosses.
Those are all things that thieves can do and warriors either can’t do at all or do it a lot worse than thief.

Having the best engage and disengage in the game is a huge advantage over every other DPS class. Stop comparing numbers.

I’m glad other players are coming in here and clarifying this is, if it even is, an sPvP issue. As I see it, ALL burst skills need to be toned down. Thieves burst in WvW is still too high too. Instagibbing is still taking place in WvW. Thieves should never have been able to do that in the first place. No build should be able to output 20k in under 3 sec.

DeWolfe.2174:

I’m glad other players are coming in here and clarifying this is, if it even is, an sPvP issue. As I see it, ALL burst skills need to be toned down. Thieves burst in WvW is still too high too. Instagibbing is still taking place in WvW. Thieves should never have been able to do that in the first place. No build should be able to output 20k in under 3 sec.

y plus perma stealth and blindness.
They need CD for heartseeker 5 sec and for backstab like 5 sec. Then it will be ok.