Guild Wars 2

Just popping in to comment on a portion of your book of a rant, Pistol Whip is not the primary damage source of s/p. Autoattack does more damage and maintains permanent weakness and crippled. Pistol whip is there to force your enemy to stop movement completely, interrupt highly telegraphed moves, and cause them to waste stun breakers. It’s more of a utility than a straight damage source.

sinject.4607:

In WvW as a thief you’re practically forced into your average d/p 0/30/30/10/0 build.

This is FAR from the truth. d/p trickery is still very viable in wvw.

sinject.4607:

s/p is also similarly useless as it only serves as a good PvE weaponset because of the fact the primary damage skill of the set (pistolwhip) is easily avoidable even if you manage to stun them.

I know great thieves who swear by s/p. It’s tessa avery’s favorite spec right now. the trick to getting the most out of s/p is to know how to use a shortbow well.

sinject.4607:

p/p was really never viable at all

This is definitely true, but personally i don’t care because there are a lot of other options out there.

sinject.4607:

you can argue for d/d

d/d is terrible.

sinject.4607:

d/p recently received a nerf so you can now no longer get 4 heartseakers off in a bp field- now you can only get 3

You don’t need to play cheese to play d/p.

Dont think theres a lack of builds rly.. just lack of intrest in making new personal builds.. People are just to busy following meta, l got a pp/dd build which works awesome most of the time.. just to many carebears

P/D is very viable and is probably my favorite build. I solo champs with it, I 1vX with it, and i command with it. So that’s another, as well kitten main builds, though they are much more difficult to play.

d/d would be so much more viable if aegis/blocks didn’t kittenblock cnd invis

I do understand what you’re trying to say. There are a few builds out there that are truly viable and a few that some good players can force to work for them (see TeamBattleAxe’s perplexity PP/fireworks build to understand what I mean by that). I think what I would really like to see is a couple of balance patches go by without a nerf, let alone even asking for a buff. Things got buffed this last time that didn’t really need it, while stuff that got nerfed didn’t really need to either (with a few exceptions both ways).

Honestly I don’t know what they could nerf more on the (direct damage) thief except maybe a few things that are carrying non-burst builds right now (executioner, hidden killer, shadows embrace, cloaked in shadow, hidden assassin, shadows rejuvenation, feline grace, and backstab all come to mind either by adding to the icd or decreasing the coefficients). I would think that P/D would realistically be next on the chopping block if we do get more nerfs.

I actually spent some serious time noodling with Team BattleAxe’s build, and I found it to be a much more reliable WvW killer than I thought I would be able to make it.

And as for the OP…I can’t really see what this post is about other than for you to use as many words as possible to just say “I’m upset because I don’t know how to play my class in WvW anymore.”

People recognize the meta and will spend time learning how to counter it specifically. Step outside of it and you can be a lot less predictable.

while i agree that thieves need more viable builds (ranged and non stealth come to mind), for WvW P/D and D/D are just fine for small scale fights.

I like D/D more than D/P in any case.

Sure, we aren’t good in a zerg other than SB but SB on demand blast finisher and poison field isnt awful

Viking Jorun.5413:

Just popping in to comment on a portion of your book of a rant, Pistol Whip is not the primary damage source of s/p. Autoattack does more damage and maintains permanent weakness and crippled. Pistol whip is there to force your enemy to stop movement completely, interrupt highly telegraphed moves, and cause them to waste stun breakers. It’s more of a utility than a straight damage source.

I love sword main hand and pistol offhand but pistol whip is pretty tough to use… this is a bit enlightening comment as I could see it being a lot better if you don’t focus on using pw as the main damage source. I had been basing my play off of watching Faeleth videos – he seems to use pw a lot for just damage.

I also don’t think the sword #2 nerf was as bad as people are making it – it was way too strong as it was acting as a pseudo stun break… with the 1/4s cast time the skill floor on it has been raised up a bit and you actually have to watch animations if you want to make the most use out of it – i’m fine with it… That being said, I agree that thieves need some work to make some more viable builds and maybe open up the possibility of roles other than roamer/burst.

The most disheartening is that I find I’ve been manipulated into playing against the design philosophy of the class.

I’m being compelled to stay in extended engagements my class isn’t designed to win.

I should be moving around the melee, avoiding attacks and eluding CC, hitting hard when gaps open up in my opponent’s defense, and disengaging when my advantage is lost. I realize this is frustrating to my opponents, but that’s the point of the class—we’re SUPPOSED to be frustrating you.

Instead I get stuck in CC, dragged into the thick of the fight, and even with ~20k hp, I get shredded in just a few seconds with little hope of bugging out to regroup and try again.

pseudonatural.3549:

The most disheartening is that I find I’ve been manipulated into playing against the design philosophy of the class.

I’m being compelled to stay in extended engagements my class isn’t designed to win.

I should be moving around the melee, avoiding attacks and eluding CC, hitting hard when gaps open up in my opponent’s defense, and disengaging when my advantage is lost. I realize this is frustrating to my opponents, but that’s the point of the class—we’re SUPPOSED to be frustrating you.

Instead I get stuck in CC, dragged into the thick of the fight, and even with ~20k hp, I get shredded in just a few seconds with little hope of bugging out to regroup and try again.

It’s funny how many other players don’t understand this high risk of the thief gameplay and persist with calling thief OP due to their high burst damage potential.

Chicago Jack.5647:

d/d is terrible.

Uhhh, why?

Sincerely, Op i do embrace your thread requesting thieves to have build diversity.

Unfortunately, there’s a problem.

Thief was designed to have a close minded, selfish, , self centered build. And what do they get in return; no diversity.

Secondly, Thief was not design to have build diversity, they were designed with a 1 kill spam stealth build.

again, the reason why thief class does not have build diversity > “Selfishness leads to nothingness”.

“Diversity is contributing to others”

Thief Diversity, “contributing to self”.

that’s all i have to say.

Burnfall.9573:

Sincerely, Op i do embrace your thread requesting thieves to have build diversity.

Unfortunately, there’s a problem.

Thief was designed to have a close minded, selfish, , self centered build. And what do they get in return; no diversity.

Secondly, Thief was not design to have build diversity, they were designed with a 1 kill spam stealth build.

again, the reason why thief class does not have build diversity > “Selfishness leads to nothingness”.

“Diversity is contributing to others”

Thief Diversity, “contributing to self”.

that’s all i have to say.

at first, I thought wow! Such anger, but then I saw it was burnfall then I lol’d

BobbyT.7192:

at first, I thought wow! Such anger, but then I saw it was burnfall then I lol’d

Look at his signature, it speaks volumes.
Actually a very good sig then, if you think about it.

Aberrant.6749:

Chicago Jack.5647:

d/d is terrible.

Uhhh, why?

First and most importantly, the aftercast of CnD against any good player will make you not land your backstabs. In comparison to d/p, the aftercast of heartseeker is so short that you can condense your damage into something similar to an S/D ele.

Second, the stealth mechanic of d/d requires you to hit a target (and in melee range), whereas with d/p the stealth mechanic does not require you to hit a target. Moreover, the stealth mechanic on d/p is a gap closer.

Third, the damage has been neutered on d offhand, so it doesn’t even compare to the amount of team support that p offhand gives you.

Fourth, death blossom is trash, whereas shadowshot is a staple skill in d/p. The pistol shot is unblockable, blinds the target, the dagger attack does about the same damage as a heartseeker to a target with less than 66% health, can be linked with a backstab, has a 900 range limit, can port you across things like fear walls… should I continue?

Very misplaced thread. Thieves on the whole are actually in a fairly decent place right now, in terms of build diversity. S/P is back, venomshare is now a legit thing, D/P has always been good, P/D is gimmicky but effective, and Shortbow remains good even after a year and a half of nothing but nerfs.

I guess that this is a situation where “viable” has some tight, unwavering definition known only to the OP.

Why is P/D gimmicky? Because no other weaponset is any good with conditions?

Interceptor.2653:

Very misplaced thread. Thieves on the whole are actually in a fairly decent place right now, in terms of build diversity. S/P is back, venomshare is now a legit thing, D/P has always been good, P/D is gimmicky but effective, and Shortbow remains good even after a year and a half of nothing but nerfs.

I guess that this is a situation where “viable” has some tight, unwavering definition known only to the OP.

I think you are overesteeming a little bit.

s/p is THE non-stealth tank setup, however all sword builds got a big hit with the Shadow Return change. So a sub-par set becomes a little more sub-par.

Venomshare was never a good thing to begin with. Yes, we can now slot 6 venoms and get 12 might but we can also slot 4 signets, get 20 might and be more effective then venomshare.

d/p is gimmicky and unless you go for damage this set is best for trolling. Less so due to the initiative gain nerfs.

p/d is a weak condition build compared to d/d. It is probably the only build that purely got a buff. However that does not make it any closer to being on par with d/d conditions.

I do agree with SB though. It is way better than p/x.

Here’s my take on different weapon sets atm:

P/P: never was viable, probably never going to be viable.

P/D: this is an okay option for WvW and PvE, but it lacks mobility which, IMO, is one of the primary reasons to play thief. Furthermore, the damage is kinda meh. This is only very rarely used in sPvP, simply because, there, it’s a bad weaponset. I do know a couple of thieves (xmtrvc/Damage Dolly comes to mind) who have used it with decent results however.

D/D: only really useful in WvW with the huge amount of NPCs and players. In sPvP, the required melee range is going to be a significant hamper. Furthermore, it really only has three usable weapon skills (auto, Heartseeker, and CnD), whereas D/P has five. For that reason, I personally believe D/D to be inferior to D/P, but I know that there are a lot of people that are zealous supporters of the D/D weaponset who love D/D builds a ton, so if you’re one of those people, then, by all means, play what you enjoy.

D/P: still a good weaponset, although it suffers all of the same problems that all stealth builds have always faced. However, all 5 skills are usable, so there’s something for you to take into consideration.

S/P: this used to be my main weaponset about a year ago. This weaponset is interesting because the #4 and #5 skills tend to be much more useful than those of S/D, but the first three skills (generally, the first three skills are considered the most important) lack synergy, which I think makes this weaponset overall slightly inferior to S/D. Specifically, there’s nothing between IS and Pistol Whip that makes them go hand-in-hand with one another, which isn’t true of S/D. Pistol Whip in and of itself is a kinda bad skill that only works effectively against less experienced players. Run into a good player, however, and he/she should be able to counter you effectively. Furthermore, there’s no really good area to aim for as far as S/P goes. For example, my S/D build goes for being able to use S/D and SB as your secondary, stealing lots of boons, and having maximum mobility (there’s nothing more fun than being able to use some combination of Shadowstep, IS, Infi Signet, Steal, and/or Infi Arrow to help a teammate who’s 3000 range away almost instantly), whereas builds like Jumper’s are going to focus on evading a ton while remaining in a close range. However, S/P doesn’t really seem to have much of a goal outside of just bursting your opponent and/or laying down a constant stream of damage, and it’s up to you and your opponent how that’s going to happen. It’s your choice though; I’ll just say that I dislike the lack of a strong overarching strategy or plan behind S/P, though that might just be an incorrect perception of the weaponset.

S/D- the specialty weaponset of players like Jumper, Lady Nag Nag, and me. As mentioned before, the 4 and 5 skills aren’t going to be quite as useful as they are for S/P (though 4 is good for catching fleeing opponents when you’re out of mobility tactics for yourself and 5 is good for stomping). However, there’s a lot of synergy between Infiltrator’s Strike/Return and Flanking Strike: they’re both skills that allow you to move quickly and fluidly. Furthermore, FS/LS also comes with a boonsteal, which is another nice tactic for you to have up your sleeve. With the recent nerfs to Infi Strike/Return, this weaponset has become less viable but is nonetheless still usable. This is definitely a weaponset where you’re going to want to have a very well-designed and well-tested build, however.

SB- not really so much a weaponset of its own as it is a utility weapon. Infi Arrow and Choking Gas are extremely useful, and the overall AoE and ranged abilities that you get from SB is hard to pass up.

So as far as individual weaponsets go, I’d rate their viability as following (not including SB):

1. D/P
2. S/D
3. S/P
4. D/D
5. P/D
6. P/P

frans.8092:

Why is P/D gimmicky?

The need for continuous re-stealths, mostly. I have no problem with the build at all, but it rests on sort of a Jenga tower because of the Sneak Attack thing.

Zacchary.6183:

So a sub-par set becomes a little more sub-par. […] Venomshare was never a good thing to begin with. […] d/p is gimmicky and unless you go for damage this set is best for trolling. […] p/d is a weak condition build […]
I do agree with SB though. It is way better than p/x.

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about WRT people with very specific definitions of “viable”. All of those builds are perfectly functional in WvW; i.e. you can use them and carve out successes for yourself.

Also, Venom Share is still going to be kinda sucky overall, IMO. And I have to agree that P/D is a very gimmicky weapon set, but then, all stealth weapon sets are (at least to some extent).

Interceptor.2653:

Zacchary.6183:

So a sub-par set becomes a little more sub-par. […] Venomshare was never a good thing to begin with. […] d/p is gimmicky and unless you go for damage this set is best for trolling. […] p/d is a weak condition build […]
I do agree with SB though. It is way better than p/x.

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about WRT people with very specific definitions of “viable”. All of those builds are perfectly functional in WvW; i.e. you can use them and carve out successes for yourself.

That’s the keyword… “Functional”. Almost any build can be “Functional” in WvW, however that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is going to perform as well as anything else.

They may be functional but that doesn’t mean I can’t find something else that will give me better results with the same amount of effort.

P/P: What i choose for dungeons. SoM+ricochet+RFI etc is great for healing and dmg and group play. i run this in fractals and get downed less than guards/warriors.

P/D: only has 2 damage skills Shadow strike and sneak attack. outside of that its all about survival. very deadly and dangerous build and IMO the best overall….but has a weakness against thieves but can be fixed with SoH and Scorp wire. Good in PVE as it can solo anything but not flashy.

D/P: Great roaming build but dont think about doing much else with this. Aoe and good players own this and actually hurts your team. BPS is the best thing about this build and the only thing really playable in team concept. TLDR: stick to roaming with this.

D/D: Fun Gank build but dont think about staying alive much. the bleed version is no good as they messed with the cast/aftercast and cant chain them fast enough. 1/4s evade for 1.25s skill. no bueno.

S/D: Too risky and dont feel like taking shadowstep RFI and infil signet and leave myself hanging bc it has no defensive ability. no BPS no gap creators nothing to sustain self. perhaps if AA was faster id still try this.

S/P: usable in PVE only. Wont be a true build in pvp until they unroot PW and revert IR. can be used in dungeons too .

SB: best group skill. those poison clouds are very pesky and if ur lucky enough to get close enough to drop some cluster bombs thats good too. 3 3 3 3 spam is a nice way in dungeons and WVW/PVP to get out of the aoe without dying but its not goign to do much dmg just by attacking. its the best backup weapon for wvw and arguably SPVP/TPVP.

S/S ….. this set….oh wait….thats wishful thinking

Arganthium.5638:

Here’s my take on different weapon sets atm:

P/P: never was viable, probably never going to be viable.

P/D: this is an okay option for WvW and PvE, but it lacks mobility which, IMO, is one of the primary reasons to play thief. Furthermore, the damage is kinda meh. This is only very rarely used in sPvP, simply because, there, it’s a bad weaponset. I do know a couple of thieves (xmtrvc/Damage Dolly comes to mind) who have used it with decent results however.

D/D: only really useful in WvW with the huge amount of NPCs and players. In sPvP, the required melee range is going to be a significant hamper. Furthermore, it really only has three usable weapon skills (auto, Heartseeker, and CnD), whereas D/P has five. For that reason, I personally believe D/D to be inferior to D/P, but I know that there are a lot of people that are zealous supporters of the D/D weaponset who love D/D builds a ton, so if you’re one of those people, then, by all means, play what you enjoy.

D/P: still a good weaponset, although it suffers all of the same problems that all stealth builds have always faced. However, all 5 skills are usable, so there’s something for you to take into consideration.

S/P: this used to be my main weaponset about a year ago. This weaponset is interesting because the #4 and #5 skills tend to be much more useful than those of S/D, but the first three skills (generally, the first three skills are considered the most important) lack synergy, which I think makes this weaponset overall slightly inferior to S/D. Specifically, there’s nothing between IS and Pistol Whip that makes them go hand-in-hand with one another, which isn’t true of S/D. Pistol Whip in and of itself is a kinda bad skill that only works effectively against less experienced players. Run into a good player, however, and he/she should be able to counter you effectively. Furthermore, there’s no really good area to aim for as far as S/P goes. For example, my S/D build goes for being able to use S/D and SB as your secondary, stealing lots of boons, and having maximum mobility (there’s nothing more fun than being able to use some combination of Shadowstep, IS, Infi Signet, Steal, and/or Infi Arrow to help a teammate who’s 3000 range away almost instantly), whereas builds like Jumper’s are going to focus on evading a ton while remaining in a close range. However, S/P doesn’t really seem to have much of a goal outside of just bursting your opponent and/or laying down a constant stream of damage, and it’s up to you and your opponent how that’s going to happen. It’s your choice though; I’ll just say that I dislike the lack of a strong overarching strategy or plan behind S/P, though that might just be an incorrect perception of the weaponset.

S/D- the specialty weaponset of players like Jumper, Lady Nag Nag, and me. As mentioned before, the 4 and 5 skills aren’t going to be quite as useful as they are for S/P (though 4 is good for catching fleeing opponents when you’re out of mobility tactics for yourself and 5 is good for stomping). However, there’s a lot of synergy between Infiltrator’s Strike/Return and Flanking Strike: they’re both skills that allow you to move quickly and fluidly. Furthermore, FS/LS also comes with a boonsteal, which is another nice tactic for you to have up your sleeve. With the recent nerfs to Infi Strike/Return, this weaponset has become less viable but is nonetheless still usable. This is definitely a weaponset where you’re going to want to have a very well-designed and well-tested build, however.

SB- not really so much a weaponset of its own as it is a utility weapon. Infi Arrow and Choking Gas are extremely useful, and the overall AoE and ranged abilities that you get from SB is hard to pass up.

So as far as individual weaponsets go, I’d rate their viability as following (not including SB):

1. D/P
2. S/D
3. S/P
4. D/D
5. P/D
6. P/P

just wanted to say the dmg on p/d is higher than on d/p ….if u are saying DPS….. but if ur saying Single hit dmg yes u r correct.

Arganthium.5638:

Also, Venom Share is still going to be kinda sucky overall, IMO.

Nonsense. Venomshare — like all builds — has to put it into a position to succeed. If you’re in small group combat where people are fairly disciplined, it’s extraordinarily useful. Everyone talks about Residual Venom, but the real money is in Leeching Venoms and Venomous Strength.

Zacchary.6183:

That’s the keyword… “Functional”.

No, the key word is this one, from your post:

me

If your standard is “best and only the best for XYZ situation”, that’s cool. However, balance in WvW or otherwise is more than just one aspect; builds are about tradeoffs, and acceptable results. None of the “non-viable” builds are so far behind that they fail to perform.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

Also, Venom Share is still going to be kinda sucky overall, IMO.

Nonsense. Venomshare — like all builds — has to put it into a position to succeed. If you’re in small group combat where people are fairly disciplined, it’s extraordinarily useful. Everyone talks about Residual Venom, but the real money is in Leeching Venoms and Venomous Strength.

Zacchary.6183:

That’s the keyword… “Functional”.

No, the key word is this one, from your post:

me

If your standard is “best and only the best for XYZ situation”, that’s cool. However, balance in WvW or otherwise is more than just one aspect; builds are about tradeoffs, and acceptable results. None of the “non-viable” builds are so far behind that they fail to perform.

srry ur wrong. tell u what… i challenge you to a fight. you run full venom share ill run build of my choice….and ill run naked. ya? ill spank ya 9/10 times prolly more. nuff said.

Travlane.5948:

srry ur wrong. tell u what… i challenge you to a fight. you run full venom share ill run build of my choice….and ill run naked. ya? ill spank ya 9/10 times prolly more. nuff said.

So just to be clear: when someone makes the point that venomshare is powerful in organized groups, your rebuttal is to challenge them to a 1on1 fight, and this is supposed to prove your position correct?

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

srry ur wrong. tell u what… i challenge you to a fight. you run full venom share ill run build of my choice….and ill run naked. ya? ill spank ya 9/10 times prolly more. nuff said.

So just to be clear: when someone makes the point that venomshare is powerful in organized groups, your rebuttal is to challenge them to a 1on1 fight, and this is supposed to prove your position correct?

no srry you missed the point. but thats bc we are using black and white words rather than inflections upon words.

the point is …. go ahead pop your venoms….. you die and have no defense. all you have is auto attack really… SB SB SB . better stay in back until your 36s is up! then u can be used again.

Also guardian F2 outheals entire venom build. period. thats 1 skill. so if thats possible why would u ever run a venom share build? reroll to guardian. atleast they can bring Line of warding. 15 might for 5 allies. 10x the healing. 10x the hp/defense/armor and even give AOE fields for might and retal/healing. sure venomshare is the THIEVES best healing spec….. but its not a case where you say ok…lets go 50 v 50 and bring X thieves….bc X=0. they cant out produce other classes. if you wanna compare venomshare WITHIN the class i agree. but theres a reason all the pro thieves dont play it. its for people having fun or trying to make it work in pve. venomshare was never “almost there” and never will until they rework venomshare trait so that venoms are viable without it.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

Also, Venom Share is still going to be kinda sucky overall, IMO.

Nonsense. Venomshare — like all builds — has to put it into a position to succeed. If you’re in small group combat where people are fairly disciplined, it’s extraordinarily useful. Everyone talks about Residual Venom, but the real money is in Leeching Venoms and Venomous Strength.

Zacchary.6183:

That’s the keyword… “Functional”.

No, the key word is this one, from your post:

me

If your standard is “best and only the best for XYZ situation”, that’s cool. However, balance in WvW or otherwise is more than just one aspect; builds are about tradeoffs, and acceptable results. None of the “non-viable” builds are so far behind that they fail to perform.

My standard is: “Does it work in most situations?”

And Venomshare does not. It works in organized group settings but beyond that it’s useless. Venoms overall are crap requiring most of the traits associated with it (about 5) for anyone to even consider slotting one.

There is no way you can convince players that venomshare is any better than it has been due to the simple fact that venoms suck in general. And as a theorycrafter, it is my duty to inform newb thieves that they are going to have a hard time with them. That and just about every thief theorycrafter is going to say venoms suck up and down the thief forums.

Don’t get me wrong, venomshare works. It’s just that it is situational and something I would not want to change my entire build for.

Zacchary.6183:

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

Also, Venom Share is still going to be kinda sucky overall, IMO.

Nonsense. Venomshare — like all builds — has to put it into a position to succeed. If you’re in small group combat where people are fairly disciplined, it’s extraordinarily useful. Everyone talks about Residual Venom, but the real money is in Leeching Venoms and Venomous Strength.

Zacchary.6183:

That’s the keyword… “Functional”.

No, the key word is this one, from your post:

me

If your standard is “best and only the best for XYZ situation”, that’s cool. However, balance in WvW or otherwise is more than just one aspect; builds are about tradeoffs, and acceptable results. None of the “non-viable” builds are so far behind that they fail to perform.

My standard is: “Does it work in most situations?”

And Venomshare does not. It works in organized group settings but beyond that it’s useless. Venoms overall are crap requiring most of the traits associated with it (about 5) for anyone to even consider slotting one.

There is no way you can convince players that venomshare is any better than it has been due to the simple fact that venoms suck in general. And as a theorycrafter, it is my duty to inform newb thieves that they are going to have a hard time with them. That and just about every thief theorycrafter is going to say venoms suck up and down the thief forums.

Don’t get me wrong, venomshare works. It’s just that it is situational and something I would not want to change my entire build for.

Most classes are sort of forced to pick small group/zerg/roaming/solo/sPvP/pug pve for their build to be really effective, so something limited to organized groups isn’t bad.

Interceptor.2653:

frans.8092:

Why is P/D gimmicky?

The need for continuous re-stealths, mostly. I have no problem with the build at all, but it rests on sort of a Jenga tower because of the Sneak Attack thing.

But Backstab requires being in stealth as much as Sneak Attack does?

Zacchary.6183:

Don’t get me wrong, venomshare works. It’s just that it is situational and something I would not want to change my entire build for.

As theorycrafter, is there no venomshare thinkable that could work – with changing traits but not the distribution – with P/D? They both focus on conditions, venomshare requires 30 SA, but so does P/D. The compromise would be around how deep you want to go into Deadly Arts vs Trickery/Acrobatics.

frans.8092:

Interceptor.2653:

frans.8092:

Why is P/D gimmicky?

The need for continuous re-stealths, mostly. I have no problem with the build at all, but it rests on sort of a Jenga tower because of the Sneak Attack thing.

But Backstab requires being in stealth as much as Sneak Attack does?

Sort of… the auto attack is really strong, and when heartseeker is used at the right time it’s also strong. P/D needs the sneak attacks to keep pressure up where D/X can keep up pressure while not stealthed.

For example, say you backstab from about 5-7k. If it takes 2 seconds to set that up, auto attcks could have pumped out that same amount of damage in that time. D/X has good out of stealth pressure, andnthe high-ish spike from backstab makes up for the time off target.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Aberrant.6749:

Chicago Jack.5647:

d/d is terrible.

Uhhh, why?

First and most importantly, the aftercast of CnD against any good player will make you not land your backstabs. In comparison to d/p, the aftercast of heartseeker is so short that you can condense your damage into something similar to an S/D ele.

Second, the stealth mechanic of d/d requires you to hit a target (and in melee range), whereas with d/p the stealth mechanic does not require you to hit a target. Moreover, the stealth mechanic on d/p is a gap closer.

Third, the damage has been neutered on d offhand, so it doesn’t even compare to the amount of team support that p offhand gives you.

Fourth, death blossom is trash, whereas shadowshot is a staple skill in d/p. The pistol shot is unblockable, blinds the target, the dagger attack does about the same damage as a heartseeker to a target with less than 66% health, can be linked with a backstab, has a 900 range limit, can port you across things like fear walls… should I continue?

Ahhh sPvP POV that explains it. Yea I would agree with DD being bad there. C&D could use a buff in that game mode. I love it in WvW though ^^

CnD definitely needs to be reverted in sPvP.

Travlane.5948:

no srry you missed the point. but thats bc we are using black and white words rather than inflections upon words.

It’s not really my responsibility to make your posts cogent: it’s yours. I laid out my argument, you challenged me to a duel, and now this is where we’re done talking.

Zacchary.6183:

My standard is: “Does it work in most situations?”

Then I think that you should adhere to your standard, since quite a lot of Thief builds work in most situations. There are a lot of “situations” in this game, and no build is the best at all of them. Playstyle has a big effect on build choice, because Thieves can easily disengage from bad matchups.

And Venomshare does not. It works in organized group settings but beyond that it’s useless.

It is excellent in an organized group. The Thief is providing all sorts of conditions, healing, might stacks, and giving people damage off of Leeching. Outside of group, Venomous Aura obviously doesn’t do much (nobody to share it with), so you just re-slot the GM trait to something else, like Shadow’s Rejuvenation. No muss, no fuss.

Kind of want a complete rebuild at this point. Scrap stealth entirely and make it more assassin-like.

Noooo, I so disliked GW1 assassin, endless 1-2-3 dagger chains, blech.

Interceptor.2653:

stuff

I don’t even know why I am arguing with a guy who has less than 2 pages of posts that sugarcoat one of the worst professions in this game. It’s like trying to sell a shiny lemon to the same guy who sold it to you last week.

That’s real cool that its “excellent” in an “organized group setting”. Now what about PUGs, 1v1, Solo roam, solo bossing, fractals, dungeons and sPvP? It needs a group so we have PUGs, Fractals, Dungeons, WvW and sPvP. But wait, the group needs to be organized as well, so we just have Fractals, Dungeons, WvW and sPvP.

It sucks in more than half of the game. But if you seriously believe that venomshare is as great as you think it is, then by all means, test it in a disorganized group or solo setting. You’ll quickly find that venoms are not as great as you believe they are.

EDIT: Oh I forgot, Venomshare almost never has stunbreaks or condition cleanse so it’s viability is killed for sPvP and WvW. Looks like all you have left is Fractals and Dungeons, bud. Venomshare sounds like it doesn’t really do very well in most situations. :I

people in here actually think P/D is a weak set? rofl….

frans.8092:

Zacchary.6183:

Don’t get me wrong, venomshare works. It’s just that it is situational and something I would not want to change my entire build for.

As theorycrafter, is there no venomshare thinkable that could work – with changing traits but not the distribution – with P/D? They both focus on conditions, venomshare requires 30 SA, but so does P/D. The compromise would be around how deep you want to go into Deadly Arts vs Trickery/Acrobatics.

Venoms suck. Period.

It is nice that that you and your friends can put all of these conditions on targets. However the thief is better at stacking AoE bleeds, dealing damage, maintaining survivability and chasing targets with non-venom d/d condition builds.

Maybe if they took venomous aura out of SA and put it into DA at master level, then MAYBE I would have a more flexible opinion.

Mordecai.6318:

people in here actually think P/D is a weak set? rofl….

It depends in group play, condi pd thief lacks dps in comparision to power/crit dagger main hand. Pd thief just doesn’t contribute enough damage to make it useful for you team. Thief doesn’t have great support so you have to bring the damage.
So the condi pd brings sub optimal dps, all your team mates around you will die while you survive.

Condi pd is great solo build bad team build. The exceptions to this are if you are running with other thiefs or heavy stealth pu memsers. In this case you can take time you kill your opponents and you wont have to worry about you team mate going down b4 your enemy.

If anet just reverted or fixed the cast time on inflitrators return thief would be in a decent state.

P/D lacks AoE, only applies two conditions (one of which is fairly hard to get on your opponent if he/she know’s what he’s/she’s doing) (not taking into consideration the fairly easily avoided and short-lasting immob and vuln), has low skill coefficients, requires you to be in stealth often (thus being unable to cap points), and has a very odd and inefficient mixture of both long range and short range attacks, neither of which are any good without the other.

It is, however, fun to use a pistol.

While I would like to see more effective builds for thief, I feel like other classes need it more. I can think of 4 effective and very different builds for a thief. That is without editing little things here and there for personal preference.

But some other classes are pigeon holed into 1 or 2 builds.

At least other professions can do more than just skip trash and gank bad players.

Zacchary.6183:

Interceptor.2653:

stuff

I don’t even know why I am arguing with a guy who has less than 2 pages of posts

This is the greatest thread ever. Thief actually has quite a bit of build diversity, and the people who disagree with me have the following retorts:

1) one guy challenges me to a 1v1 to prove that a group-combat spec is not viable, and
2) someone judges my worth as a Thief by measuring how many posts I’ve made on a forum.

I can’t even make this stuff up. Not a single reasonable, objective counter-argument, just “no u”.

Venomshare sounds like it doesn’t really do very well in most situations. :I

This is called “moving the goalposts”. You walked back your original stance (which included many non-venomshare builds), and then expanded the field outside of PvP/WvW, resulting in you refuting an argument that I never actually made in the first place. It’s the natural result of entering an discussion in bad faith.

Interceptor.2653:

Zacchary.6183:

Interceptor.2653:

stuff

I don’t even know why I am arguing with a guy who has less than 2 pages of posts

This is the greatest thread ever. Thief actually has quite a bit of build diversity, and the people who disagree with me have the following retorts:

1) one guy challenges me to a 1v1 to prove that a group-combat spec is not viable, and
2) someone judges my worth as a Thief by measuring how many posts I’ve made on a forum.

I can’t even make this stuff up. Not a single reasonable, objective counter-argument, just “no u”.

There is a reason. Perhaps its because experienced people are tired of telling ignorant to less experienced people, maybe?

Contrary to popular belief, you actually can make stuff up. Bad players have been doing it to get this profession in a hole for the longest time. And look how successful they were.

Zacchary.6183:

Contrary to popular belief, you actually can make stuff up.

I was referring to the quality of the retorts. In addition to being challenged to a duel, and you flexing your forum activity plus making personal attacks, there was even an infracted post that accused me of being on ANet’s take. This is stuff that would get you disqualified from an elementary school debate.

There is a reason. Perhaps its because experienced people are tired of telling ignorant to less experienced people, maybe?

I’m not prepared to make guesses about people’s motivations. I’m just looking at the thief build options objectively. I’ve been playing Thief since beta, and I’ve run every build under the sun, except S/D (which was in vogue while I was playing S/P Perplexity). Someone who says that this class needs more diversity, is frankly either 1) looking at some extremely specific scenario and over-weighted it, or 2) out of their tree.