Guild Wars 2

It’s silly to expect a game that’s focused on PvP, where the primary driving factor behind PvP is strictly DPS, to actively nerf DPS output of various classes. Especially classes (warriors) that aren’t doing well at said PvP currently.

How about we take a novel approach and make the Thief about more than DPS? Why can’t the Thief have a poison that, when allies strike the target with poison, they gain fury? Why can’t share poison be a level 5 trait and poisons be changed to actually provide something useful? I mean we have the whole poison mechanic for this class that no one ever uses because poisons flat out suck. And not only do they suck, but they’d have to be horrendously overpowered to ever be considered over things like Shadowstep, shadow refuge, blinding powder, etc.

Personally, I think asking for more damage from the Thief is just opening up other issues because we’d have to sacrifice to gain it. Right now the largest complaint against this class is stealth uptime. I could see them nerfing our stealth uptime in favor of added damage (which I’m cool with). The easist method to add damage would be to change our stealth skills (backstab, etc.) to work from the back even when out of stealth but have an internal cooldown.

For example, when striking from the back, your third attack will be a backstab instead on a 4 second cooldown (long enough so you’d only do it every other rotation) that deals 150% damage (instead of 200% from stealth).

But yea, I don’t see them nerfing any class’ damage. I don’t see them increasing our damage without equal nerfs in other areas (most likely stealth). The better solution would be to just add utility for this class so it not only has value to PvE groups, but the current WvW meta as well.

What Thieves need are better support options and a better ability to avoid or mitigate damage. One of my biggest complaints is that they don’t get good Endurance regeneration despite how reliant on evades they are.

panicbutton.1053:

Yep I know — there are 20 other posts about it. Lets make more :P

In a game where there really is no dedicated healer or specific rolls in dungeons, thieves need some help in order to make them a more-wanted class. You all have to admit that everyone just wants the “heavies” in their party since thieves spend most of the time rallying for survival and are just to squishy. <- this is not true.

There should be a bit of revamping in terms of damage imo(within dungeon play). Warriors/Guardians are tanks, <- this is also not true so let them be. Lower their damage, however increase their ability to hold aggro so they can remain tanky. Since DAMAGE is all that a thief can offer, <- again, not true make classes such as the thief deal more damage so they are a wanted commodity in dungeons.

Without a dedicated healer/tank/dd rolls in a game, it seems to only be a balance of tanks and dd. <- It’s a balance of dd, dd and dd I really see no other solution :/

There are NO tanks in pve. The end.

A thief has more damage mitigation than every other class in this game. Dagger/Dagger 3, Sword/Pistol 3, Sword 2, Shortbow 3, more dodgerolls than god himself and stealth.
Oh, and blinds, lots of blinds for utility.

Einlanzer.1627:

What Thieves need are better support options and a better ability to avoid or mitigate damage. One of my biggest complaints is that they don’t get good Endurance regeneration despite how reliant on evades they are.

Um. 15 in acrobatics, withdraw, and the 10s of vigor on heal trait (Acrobatics Adept Major) beg to disagree. Dagger auto also generates endurance.

If I want to make a thief that spends most of the day rolling around, believe me I can. Couple it with something like Death Blossom or even Pistol Whip and I just have to balance initiative and endurance regeneration.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s silly to expect a game that’s focused on PvP, …

Since when are dungeons considered PvP? The thread is about dungeons, or PvE, not PvP!

Molch.2078:

A thief has more damage mitigation than every other class in this game. Dagger/Dagger 3, Sword/Pistol 3, Sword 2, Shortbow 3, more dodgerolls than god himself and stealth.
Oh, and blinds, lots of blinds for utility.

Blind doesn’t work on the big guys and nobody cares about trash mobs anyway. Thief doesn’t have more damage mitigation then other classes. Dodges are for everyone, and in approximately equal amounts – thief has the 15% endurance refund, but half of the available classes have a trait to give a permanent +50% endurance, and most have easier access to vigor. While occasionally preventing damage, weapon evades are too short too time reliably with GW’s wacky timing. Stealth doesn’t mitigate damage at all and while stealthed, or dodging, a thief will not do damage while other professions have access to damage mitigation that allows them to keep doing damage.

Thieves aren’t bad at all in dungeons. Most people just don’t take them because many of the people playing the thieves in dungeons are bad. Too many people try to play pve like wvw but pve isn’t wvw. By pve I mean dungeons, open world is a joke where a full magic find, traitless, lvl 1 armored, no weapon ele is completely viable for open world pve.

frans.8092:

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s silly to expect a game that’s focused on PvP, …

Since when are dungeons considered PvP? The thread is about dungeons, or PvE, not PvP!

Try to deny it all you want, the sole driving focus of this game is PvP. The entire game is designed around it. Every class is balanced around it.

I think it is just conditions vs boons. Boon based classes are better because boons scale with content but conditions do not. Conditions are reduced by defiant, are applied to few mobs or a limited area, etc. Thieves relies on conditions like smoke and therefore fail when the content scales in difficulty.

Atherakhia.4086:

frans.8092:

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s silly to expect a game that’s focused on PvP, …

Since when are dungeons considered PvP? The thread is about dungeons, or PvE, not PvP!

Try to deny it all you want, the sole driving focus of this game is PvP. The entire game is designed around it. Every class is balanced around it.

The thread is about dungeons, you post is off topic.

This is not a PvP game. First of all, you don’t get ‘balance’ with 10 different classes. Not. Ever. If you want to create a balanced PvP game everyone has to have the same character. Then, and only then will personal skill be the sole factor Secondly, the majority of content is not for PvP at all, but for PvE. For a ‘PvP game’ you don’t need more then a couple of maps. The marketing was focussed on PvE, the Dynamic Events, their influence on Tyria, 5 pc dungeon’s etc, absense of the trinity, not PvP. By far the focus and the largest portion of content is devoted to PvE and Wvw is essentially an extension of the PvE part of this game, and should be treated as such.

It’s a mistake they made in Guildwars 1, one from which they should have learned, but didn’t, to try and balance 10 different classes for PvE and PvP at the same time. It can not be done. They should balance the PvE portion of the game for PvE, and the PvP for PvP. If WvW rules remains the same as the PvE then WvW should be subjected to the PvE balancing needs, and not the other way around, and if that creates too much imbalance, the rules for WvW and PvE should be separated.

@frans.8092

Blind doesn’t work on the big guys and nobody cares about trash mobs anyway.
You don’t, I don’t, but not everybody skips them, uses LoS or has enough damage to burst them down.

thief has the 15% endurance refund, but half of the available classes have a trait to give a permanent +50% endurance, and most have easier access to vigor.
10 seconds of vigor every time you use your 15 second cd-heal which is a dodge, too. And you can use + 40% bufffood.

While occasionally preventing damage, weapon evades are too short too time reliably with GW’s wacky timing.
I play with delay and ~10-15 fps and it works fine for me most of the time.

access to damage mitigation that allows them to keep doing damage.
What do you mean? Things like endure pain?

Molch.2078:

@frans.8092

Blind doesn’t work on the big guys and nobody cares about trash mobs anyway.
You don’t, I don’t, but not everybody skips them, uses LoS or has enough damage to burst them down.

And how often were you invited into a dungeon group for your access to Black Powder Shot?

thief has the 15% endurance refund, but half of the available classes have a trait to give a permanent +50% endurance, and most have easier access to vigor.
10 seconds of vigor every time you use your 15 second cd-heal which is a dodge, too. And you can use + 40% bufffood.

Everyone can eat that food, so it doesn’t make thief’s endurance regain special. Why do you mention buffs that everyone has access to as something special for the thief?
You don’t use your heal on recharge, you use it when you need to heal, so you don’t get vigor every 15 seconds.

While occasionally preventing damage, weapon evades are too short too time reliably with GW’s wacky timing.
I play with delay and ~10-15 fps and it works fine for me most of the time.

Well, words are cheap, video it and I believe you.

access to damage mitigation that allows them to keep doing damage.
What do you mean? Things like endure pain?

Yeah, like those, 4 extra seconds relatively carefree dishing out damage. You don’t deal damage while stealthed, or dodging. Damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking is better then damage mitigation that forces you to stop attacking. Thief has only has access to the latter and none of the first.

LOL My thief is a Bunker Condition thief and I have 0 problems in any dungeon even arah, with 2700 armor, 700+ healing and 1500 condition damage, I will keep 25 stacks of bleed on foes at all times + poison and heal 3-5k per second.

If you having problems in Dungeons learn a different build, and Learn how to use Combo fields and Finishers.

Yeah I wont get into a Full Zerk cof run, but who cares thats what my warrior and mesmer are for, but for Arah, SE, CM, AC, TA and HoW Im thief all the way.

frans, have I insulted you? You sound angry. If so, I appologize, that was never my intention.

The OP claimed, that a thief has nothing but damage. I argued, that AoE blind and stealth can be usefull in various situations. You cannot deny that.

The OP claimed, that thiefs die a lot in dungeons. I gave a few examples, how you can avoid damage. I play my full zerker thief in arah and I die as rarely as I die with any other class. Furthermore, I see no reason to give you any proof whatsoever. You don’t believe me? Fine. Why should I care?

What’s your point anyway? That a theif sucks in dungeons? Well, I play every class but engeneer and I can say for sure, that the thief is one of the stronger classes for dungeons. If you think a thief is bad, go reroll ranger or necro, then we talk again.

I’ll take this.

Everyone can eat that food, so it doesn’t make thief’s endurance regain special. Why do you mention buffs that everyone has access to as something special for the thief?
You don’t use your heal on recharge, you use it when you need to heal, so you don’t get vigor every 15 seconds.

Feline Grace does.
If you have trouble keeping up vigor, try Bountiful Theft.

Yeah, like those, 4 extra seconds relatively carefree dishing out damage. You don’t deal damage while stealthed, or dodging. Damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking is better then damage mitigation that forces you to stop attacking. Thief has only has access to the latter and none of the first.

Do you really think that 4s on a 60s cooldown of carefree damage makes that much of a difference?

frans.8092:

While occasionally preventing damage, weapon evades are too short too time reliably with GW’s wacky timing.

I specifically time Pistol Whip to replace dodging when fighting subject alpha in Crucible of Eternity. While I doubt I could time Death Blossom to do the same (It is just too short for me to trust myself with), I bet I could also avoid the massive AoE spike with Flanking Strike.

It’s actually kind of nice since it means you don’t have to stop attacking so you can dodge.

Granted, this is something of an edge case since subject alpha’s attacks have a lot of lead time, but since the dungeon forum is currently dominated by “All berserker, learn 2 dodge or GTFO” it could prove relevant yet.

Molch.2078:

frans, have I insulted you? You sound angry. If so, I appologize, that was never my intention.

No, you mentioned food buffs and anyone can use those, which means they benefit everyone and not just thieves, as was impled in your post.

The OP claimed, that a thief has nothing but damage. I argued, that AoE blind and stealth can be usefull in various situations. You cannot deny that.

We’re not interested in ‘various situations’ since this thread is about dungeon’s. Blind don’t work on bosses and against trash mobs the damage mitigation isn’t needed.

… I gave a few examples, how you can avoid damage. I play my full zerker thief in arah and I die as rarely as I die with any other class. Furthermore, I see no reason to give you any proof whatsoever. You don’t believe me? Fine. Why should I care?

Then there’s little to discuss.

What’s your point anyway? That a theif sucks in dungeons?

I never said anything like that. You were trying to counter the OP with numerous incorrect arguments, I pointed them out.

Next quotes from sorrow, forum doesn’t like multi-quoting.

I’ll take this.

Everyone can eat that food, so those do not make thief’s endurance buffs special. Why do you mention buffs that everyone has access to as something special for the thief?
You don’t use your heal on recharge, you use it when you need to heal, so you don’t get vigor every 15 seconds.

Feline Grace does.

Does what? Return 30% of the endurance, which is less then the +50%. And yes, feline grace stacks with Vigor, but we have little access to Vigor. I don’t think our access to endurance buffing is bad, but its nothing better then what can be achieved on other classes.

If you have trouble keeping up vigor, try Bountiful Theft.

A 20 point trait with the same downside to keep vigor up as Vigorous Recovery; just as your heal, your typically steal isn’t used on recharge though it’s likely easier to fit in a steal then a heal.

Yeah, like those, 4 extra seconds relatively carefree dishing out damage. You don’t deal damage while stealthed, or dodging. Damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking is better then damage mitigation that forces you to stop attacking. Thief has only has access to the latter and none of the first.

Do you really think that 4s on a 60s cooldown of carefree damage makes that much of a difference?

Through the context you are now claiming that Endure Pain is the only damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop fighting. Is that truly what you want to post here?

“I specifically time Pistol Whip to replace dodging when fighting subject alpha in Crucible of Eternity. While I doubt I could time Death Blossom to do the same (It is just too short for me to trust myself with), I bet I could also avoid the massive AoE spike with Flanking Strike.”

Find the right range and then shadowstep/return.

I don’t play a thief, but I play a lot of dungeons and they are generally a welcome sight:

Stealthing party through trash in CM and AC
Stealthing the fire on snowblind fractal, or the doors/bombs on the dredge fractal
Can substitute one for a warr for CoE/CoF dps
Shadow refuge is a life saver when res-ing in fractals

Other classes can do some of that too, but I don’t think thieves are in a bad position, especially relative t some others.

frans.8092:

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s silly to expect a game that’s focused on PvP, …

Since when are dungeons considered PvP? The thread is about dungeons, or PvE, not PvP!

Just look how many things are done in PvP/WvW and how little is done to dungeons from the release… even the dungeon team has been disbanded – becouse obviously dungeons are the lowest priority possible. AC changes and minor CoF changes from the release aaaaaaaand thats it.

Sad to say but I’m waiting for other games Wildstar or FFXIV:ARR or something new (for now I’m stuck to GW2 – there is no good game out there and I deffinititely won’t go back to WoW) to give me as a player some better fun from dungeons that it is in GW2.

As for thief in dungeons. I played a Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, Engi and Necro but the Thief is the most mobile character there is, it has so many evade and dodge mechanics in some fight the thief is immortal if player properly.

tl;dr Living Story > sPvP=WvW > some-other-very-important-things > dungeons.

Before starting another post about how weak the thief is in pve and how fast he dies in PvE dungeon envoirment in a hands of a player that can’t play properly a thief but goes full zerker 25-30-x-x-x traits – better watch 100 YT movies what w skilled thief can really do, and put some time in researching dungeon mechanics and build types on different forums, else just give up playing as a thief and go play as warrior or guardian.

frans.8092:

Does what? Return 30% of the endurance, which is less then the +50%. And yes, feline grace stacks with Vigor, but we have little access to Vigor. I don’t think our access to endurance buffing is bad, but its nothing better then what can be achieved on other classes.

You can easily keep up vigor all the time with a proper build. 0/30/15/0/25 with Withdraw as heal do the job just fine.
Other classes can’t do better. Vigor + Feline grace is the best endurance management in this game. Most other classes have only endurance regeneration, which is capped anyway at 100%.

frans.8092:

A 20 point trait with the same downside to keep vigor up as Vigorous Recovery; just as your heal, your typically steal isn’t used on recharge though it’s likely easier to fit in a steal then a heal.

You can have them both for 100% uptime. Trickery builds are quite strong right now.

frans.8092:

Through the context you are now claiming that Endure Pain is the only damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop fighting. Is that truly what you want to post here?

Well, tell me another skill which allows you to facetank any damage carelessly.

sorrow.2364:

Well, tell me another skill which allows you to facetank any damage carelessly.

Distortion, blurred frenzy, any evade on attack, any counterattack skill (they use block), ranger signet, and guardian… guardian isn’t a skill, they just allow you to facetank any damage carelessly. Warrior also has the trait to reflect while blocking. I’m sure there’s more but that’s all I could think up.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance
“Endurance regenerates over time, at a base rate of 5% per second and a max rate of 10% per second, effects which grant additional endurance regeneration do not stack beyond double the normal rate”

A thief gets his endurance back with dagger autohit and 15 acrobatics. Therefore he profits from that buff food. A class like mesmer or guardian (engineer, too? Dunno, I don’t play engi) who has perma vigor cannot use this bufffood.

When I said in various situations, I meant various situations in dungeons ofcourse. If you have a guardian or a mesmer everytime you do arah, fine, you won’t need a theif for smokefields. It’s unlikely, that you need a thief for stealth, too. But those things make the dungeon easier. And I think thats good? No?

I am still unable to see the numerous incorrect arguments you pointed out, sorry

The best part is where thief is one of the 3 BEST dungeon professions.

every time i go fotm 48 i ’d want a thief in my party…..as many fotm groups.
And it works even for dungeon farming…

for once we can say its a l2p issue :/

P.S.
-projectile reflect
-best resser
-skip mechanic (stealth for party)
-strong DPS
-can even outheal maw agony via healing combo
-has pets
-perma Blind
-One of the BEST CC in the game that bypass defiant
-grreat AoE

What else do you want?

P.P.S how did i end up in thief forum __? i thougt i was in dungeon <.<

randomfightfan.4091:

Distortion, blurred frenzy, any evade on attack, any counterattack skill (they use block), ranger signet, and guardian… guardian isn’t a skill, they just allow you to facetank any damage carelessly. Warrior also has the trait to reflect while blocking. I’m sure there’s more but that’s all I could think up.

I’ve yet to see a Warrior in distortion.

LordByron.8369:

The best part is where thief is one of the 3 BEST dungeon professions.

every time i go fotm 48 i ’d want a thief in my party…..as many fotm groups.
And it works even for dungeon farming…

for once we can say its a l2p issue :/

P.S.
-projectile reflect
-best resser
-skip mechanic (stealth for party)
-strong DPS
-can even outheal maw agony via healing combo
-has pets
-perma Blind
-One of the BEST CC in the game that bypass defiant
-grreat AoE

What else do you want?

P.P.S how did i end up in thief forum __? i thougt i was in dungeon <.<

Ähm, what!?

Black Teagan.9215:

Ähm, what!?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cluster_Bomb

sorrow.2364:

Black Teagan.9215:

Ähm, what!?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cluster_Bomb

Basilisk Venom is a joke , also with Residual Venom and Venomous Aura.
The thief guild prevents more dmg and hostile skills than 4x the venom, and they make damage.

And ClusterBomb is, addicted from the distance, very slow. Autoattack were stronger (except by 5 enemies).

Black Teagan.9215:

Basilisk Venom is a joke , also with Residual Venom and Venomous Aura.
The thief guild prevents more dmg and hostile skills than 4x the venom, and they make damage.

And ClusterBomb is, addicted from the distance, very slow. Autoattack were stronger (except by 5 enemies).

That’s just a poor attempt to prove your point.

Basilisk Venom is the only CC which bypass defiant. It’s a fact. I don’t think the best use is to prevent damage.

Cluster Bomb is an AoE ~4-5k damage on 3 initiative. If the projectile was also fast traveling, then it would be insanely OP. Still, it is an amazing AoE skill.

sorrow.2364:

frans.8092:

Does what? Return 30% of the endurance, which is less then the +50%. And yes, feline grace stacks with Vigor, but we have little access to Vigor. I don’t think our access to endurance buffing is bad, but its nothing better then what can be achieved on other classes.

You can easily keep up vigor all the time with a proper build. 0/30/15/0/25 with

Withdraw and Steal each have their use, getting Vigor from them is a side effect, not their purpose and would you be using for the sole purpose of maintaining Vigor, you’d not be using them to their full potential. Not to mention you’re now dedicating three traits and have your trait-points to maintain Vigor.

Withdraw as heal do the job just fine.

Has been on my bar ever since dagger got glued in as my offhand.

Other classes can’t do better.

Guardian has a 5 point trait that gives vigor on critical hits, makes it not only easier to maintain it then spamming heal when you don’t need it. And it gives you Vigor while attacking, rather then when withdrawing away from the action.

The discussion isn’t about endurance, the point I brought up was that damage mitigation from dodging and stealth prevent you from dealing damage, while damage mitigation from boons, like protection, allows one to keep attacking longer.

Why are you avoiding that?

Oh, wait….

frans.8092:

Through the context you are now claiming that Endure Pain is the only damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop fighting. Is that truly what you want to post here?

Well, tell me another skill which allows you to facetank any damage carelessly.

Now you’re evading more, I didn’t mention face-tanking at all, I mentioned damage mitigation that, unlike dodging and stealth, does it’s job without interfering with your offence.

frans.8092:

Withdraw and Steal each have their use, getting Vigor from them is a side effect, not their purpose and would you be using for the sole purpose of maintaining Vigor, you’d not be using them to their full potential. Not to mention you’re now dedicating three traits and have your trait-points to maintain Vigor.

Nope, you are dedicating three traitpoints steal boons, reduce the recharge of steal, daze your target on steal, grant your team 50% fury uptime and, of course, have 100% vigor uptime.
Also, you have quite a lot of goodies coming from spending point into the trickery traitline.

frans.8092:

Guardian has a 5 point trait that gives vigor on critical hits, makes it not only easier to maintain it then spamming heal when you don’t need it. And it gives you Vigor while attacking, rather then when withdrawing away from the action.

Still, Guardians get way less from their vigor since they don’t have Feline Grace.

frans.8092:

The discussion isn’t about endurance, the point I brought up was that damage mitigation from dodging and stealth prevent you from dealing damage, while damage mitigation from boons, like protection, allows one to keep attacking longer.
Why are you avoiding that?

Oh, wait….

Have you ever heard about Pistol Whip?

Now you’re evading more, I didn’t mention face-tanking at all, I mentioned damage mitigation that, unlike dodging and stealth, does it’s job without interfering with your offence.

Dodging is a 100% damage mitigation. Evading is a 100% damage mitigation too.
Pistol Whip your target to death if you want to deal damage while taking no damage at all. Or, if you aren’t against a boss, use Black Powder every 5s, press 1 and get a coffee.

sorrow.2364:

Nope, you are dedicating three traitpoints steal boons, reduce the recharge of steal, daze your target on steal, grant your team 50% fury uptime and, of course, have 100% vigor uptime.
Also, you have quite a lot of goodies coming from spending point into the trickery traitline.

You always sacrifice something, either damage from a reduced Critical Strikes, or reduced survivability from not loosing Shadow Arts and thus loosing things like condition removal. If you go further into Trickery for the Grandmaster trait for daze on steal you’ll sacrifice both Critical Strikes and Shadow Arts, since 30 in Trickery and 15-20 in Acrobatics leaves you with only 20-25 points to choose from for the rest and if you want fury to mean anything, this means they all go into Critical Strikes.

frans.8092:

Guardian has a 5 point trait that gives vigor on critical hits, makes it not only easier to maintain it then spamming heal when you don’t need it. And it gives you Vigor while attacking, rather then when withdrawing away from the action.

Still, Guardians get way less from their vigor since they don’t have Feline Grace.

They also get Vigor while attacking, rather then during a withdraw. Besides, when you are using more endurance regen then Vigor grants you’re not attacking but spending most of your time dodging.

frans.8092:

The discussion isn’t about endurance, the point I brought up was that damage mitigation from dodging and stealth prevent you from dealing damage, while damage mitigation from boons, like protection, allows one to keep attacking longer.
Why are you avoiding that?

Oh, wait….

Have you ever heard about Pistol Whip?

Expensive on initiative, effectively on a 5-7 second cooldown, and it roots you, which is rather awkward with a mobile style. Remember we’re talking dungeons and thus fighting bosses up close.

Now you’re evading more, I didn’t mention face-tanking at all, I mentioned damage mitigation that, unlike dodging and stealth, does it’s job without interfering with your offence.

Dodging is a 100% damage mitigation. Evading is a 100% damage mitigation too.

Again, you’re not attacking while dodging.

Pistol Whip your target to death if you want to deal damage while taking no damage at all.

not enough initiative for that.

Or, if you aren’t against a boss, use Black Powder every 5s, press 1 and get a coffee.

Doesn’t work against mixed melee-ranged groups

" Or, if you aren’t against a boss, use Black Powder every 5s, press 1 and get a coffee.

Doesn’t work against mixed melee-ranged groups"

That’s why smokescreen is so good.

frans.8092:

You always sacrifice something, either damage from a reduced Critical Strikes, or reduced survivability from not loosing Shadow Arts and thus loosing things like condition removal. If you go further into Trickery for the Grandmaster trait for daze on steal you’ll sacrifice both Critical Strikes and Shadow Arts, since 30 in Trickery and 15-20 in Acrobatics leaves you with only 20-25 points to choose from for the rest and if you want fury to mean anything, this means they all go into Critical Strikes.

Those are simple tradeoffs. If you were able to have them all, Thief would be completely broken.
You can try 0/30/0/10/30, 0/30/0/15/25, 0/25/0/15/30 or 0/30/10/0/30. Just pick the one you like with the proper tradeoffs.
Also, in PvE, Shadowstep is more than enough as condition cleansing.

They also get Vigor while attacking, rather then during a withdraw. Besides, when you are using more endurance regen then Vigor grants you’re not attacking but spending most of your time dodging.

This is based on which complex mathematical and statistical analysis?
If you think you can live without Feline Grace, then just don’t spend 15 points into acrobatics. 30 in trickery are enough to give you 75% vigor uptime.

Expensive on initiative, effectively on a 5-7 second cooldown, and it roots you, which is rather awkward with a mobile style. Remember we’re talking dungeons and thus fighting bosses up close.

It isn’t expensive on initiative.
With Opportunist, you have good chances to get 1 initiative back. 1 initiative, also, regenerates during the channel. This skill, in reality, just costs 3 initative.

Again, you’re not attacking while dodging.

Then make a big norn and go guardian. Did you really expected to facetank all the damage as a Thief?

not enough initiative for that.

Read above.

Doesn’t work against mixed melee-ranged groups

Read previous post.

sorrow.2364:

frans.8092:

You always sacrifice something, either damage from a reduced Critical Strikes, or reduced survivability from not loosing Shadow Arts and thus loosing things like condition removal. If you go further into Trickery for the Grandmaster trait for daze on steal you’ll sacrifice both Critical Strikes and Shadow Arts, since 30 in Trickery and 15-20 in Acrobatics leaves you with only 20-25 points to choose from for the rest and if you want fury to mean anything, this means they all go into Critical Strikes.

Those are simple tradeoffs. If you were able to have them all, Thief would be completely broken.
You can try 0/30/0/10/30, 0/30/0/15/25, 0/25/0/15/30 or 0/30/10/0/30. Just pick the one you like with the proper tradeoffs.

And there we are, not only are we loosing damage when traiting for this much endurance, we also loose damage using it for dodging since we’re not doing damage while dodging. We’ve come round to the point I’ve been making, thief depends more on damage mitigation that requires him to stop attacking then any other class, lowering their damage output while damage output, should be, given the lack of support, their job in group excursions.

Also, in PvE, Shadowstep is more than enough as condition cleansing.

On a 50 second cooldown, you can’t be serious.

They also get Vigor while attacking, rather then during a withdraw. Besides, when you are using more endurance regen then Vigor grants you’re not attacking but spending most of your time dodging.

This is based on which complex mathematical and statistical analysis?

You need a mathematical and statistical analysis to understand how you don’t do damage while dodging??? Or do you need to calculate how much time you spend dodging and attacking before figuring out that 24/7 Vigor is enough and using 24/7 Vigor + Feline Grace will keep you from attacking for a substantial, possibly the largest part.

Expensive on initiative, effectively on a 5-7 second cooldown, and it roots you, which is rather awkward with a mobile style. Remember we’re talking dungeons and thus fighting bosses up close.

It isn’t expensive on initiative.
With Opportunist, you have good chances to get 1 initiative back. 1 initiative, also, regenerates during the channel. This skill, in reality, just costs 3 initative.

Regen always does it’s job, as does Opportunist – at least while hitting. So the net payback from PW is less then 1 initiative.

Again, you’re not attacking while dodging.

Then make a big norn and go guardian. Did you really expected to facetank all the damage as a Thief?

Lol, here’s facetanking again, you are not following the thread. The point being made is that dodging – and stealth – as damage mitigation compromises the thief’s ability to bring damage output, and thus, value to a group.

Doesn’t work against mixed melee-ranged groups

Read previous post.

The cooldown is really too long for that.

frans.8092:

And there we are, not only are we loosing damage when traiting for this much endurance, we also loose damage using it for dodging since we’re not doing damage while dodging. We’ve come round to the point I’ve been making, thief depends more on damage mitigation that requires him to stop attacking then any other class, lowering their damage output while damage output, should be, given the lack of support, their job in group excursions.

Do you even PvE?
Have you idea of why every people run berserker in PvE?
Because you don’t need damage mitigation. PvE is all about dodging the OHK skill at the right time. A zerker warrior die as fast as a zerker thief.

That’s why dodging is far more valuable compared to damage mitigation.

Still, I fail to understand what you’re talking about. You seems convinced that Warriors attack people in permanent endure pain or that they eat all the damage carelessly.

frans.8092:

On a 50 second cooldown, you can’t be serious.

Yeah, because we all know how conditions are rampant in PvE.

frans.8092:

You need a mathematical and statistical analysis to understand how you don’t do damage while dodging??? Or do you need to calculate how much time you spend dodging and attacking before figuring out that 24/7 Vigor is enough and using 24/7 Vigor + Feline Grace will keep you from attacking for a substantial, possibly the largest part.

Oh god.
Other professions need to stop attacking too when casting their defensive skills. So what?
Do you really think that in dungeon you have to dodge that much? Geez…

frans.8092:

Regen always does it’s job, as does Opportunist – at least while hitting. So the net payback from PW is less then 1 initiative.

But, once you are able to spend your initiative again, you have, in fact, just 3 ini less compared to when you’ve started to cast PW.
The channel time, in which you are evading, makes the difference.

frans.8092:

Lol, here’s facetanking again, you are not following the thread. The point being made is that dodging – and stealth – as damage mitigation compromises the thief’s ability to bring damage output, and thus, value to a group.

I’ve already answered to you. If you want to evade while attacking, there is Pistol Whip for you.

frans.8092:

The cooldown is really too long for that.

Wall of Reflection is on 40s cooldown, Smoke Screen is on 30, 26 if traited with an adept trait (if I’m not wrong).
Do you want such a strong skill on 5s cooldown?

sorrow.2364:

Still, I fail to understand what you’re talking about. You seems convinced that Warriors attack people in permanent endure pain.

I never said anything remotely like that, my claim is that you can’t do damage while dodging. A simple truth that you apparently have to contest with fallacies.

Yeah, because we all know how conditions are rampant in PvE.

You need them to run rampant before you bring condition removal?

frans.8092:

You need a mathematical and statistical analysis to understand how you don’t do damage while dodging??? Or do you need to calculate how much time you spend dodging and attacking before figuring out that 24/7 Vigor is enough and using 24/7 Vigor + Feline Grace will keep you from attacking for a substantial, possibly the largest part.

Oh god.

God’s got nothing to do with it

Other professions need to stop attacking too when casting their defensive skills. So what?

They also need to stop attacking while the effects of their defensive skills do their work?

Do you really think that in dungeon you have to dodge that much? Geez…

Ah, so you don’t need 24/7 damage mitigation? Then cooldowns aren’t a problem ….

frans.8092:

Regen always does it’s job, as does Opportunist – at least while hitting. So the net payback from PW is less then 1 initiative.

But, once you are able to spend your initiative again, you have, in fact, just 3 ini less compared to when you’ve started to cast PW.

You could use it for something else.

frans.8092:

Lol, here’s facetanking again, you are not following the thread. The point being made is that dodging – and stealth – as damage mitigation compromises the thief’s ability to bring damage output, and thus, value to a group.

I’ve already answered to you. If you want to evade while attacking, there is Pistol Whip for you.

frans.8092:

The cooldown is really too long for that.

Wall of Reflection is on 40s cooldown, Smoke Screen is on 30, 26 if traited with an adept trait (if I’m not wrong).
Do you want such a strong skill on 5s cooldown?

Last time I checked Wall of Reflection was an Engineer skill and Master of Deception is in Shadow Arts, not a trait you’d pick on a /P. Unless you like waiting, 30 seconds between trash mobs is quite long.

frans.8092:

You need them to run rampant before you bring condition removal?

Shadowstep IS a condition removal. Infiltrator’s strike too.

frans.8092:

They also need to stop attacking while the effects of their defensive skills do their work?

Do their defensive skills lasts less than 1 seconds? Do their defensive skills grant 100% direct damage immunity? Do can use their defensive skills as often as a thief dodge/evades?

frans.8092:

You could use it for something else.

Damage, evasion and stun. What do you want to use your initiative on? It is the same effective initiative cost of heartseeker, but heartseeker draws your bar significantly faster.

frans.8092:

Last time I checked Wall of Reflection was an Engineer skill and Master of Deception is in Shadow Arts, not a trait you’d pick on a /P. Unless you like waiting, 30 seconds between trash mobs is quite long.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_Reflection
I mean, do you want 100% damage immunity from mobs? With 30s cooldown, you have 25% uptime of smoke screen…

sorrow.2364:

frans.8092:

You need them to run rampant before you bring condition removal?

Shadowstep IS a condition removal. Infiltrator’s strike too.

Nope, it isn’t, you’re confused, Shadow Return removes a condition. Shadow Step is not a condition Remover, if you say that, you don’t understand it.

frans.8092:

They also need to stop attacking while the effects of their defensive skills do their work?

Do their defensive skills lasts less than 1 seconds? Do their defensive skills grant 100% direct damage immunity? Do can use their defensive skills as often as a thief dodge/evades?

They have defensive skills that mitigate damage without requiring them to stop attacking for the duration of the defence. Neither dodging nor stealth offer that, with both you have to stop attacking and for the duration of the defence.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_Reflection

It’s a guardian skill, why do you mention it here?

frans.8092:

Nope, it isn’t, you’re confused, Shadow Return removes a condition. Shadow Step is not a condition Remover, if you say that, you don’t understand it.

Are you really doing this? Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

frans.8092:

They have defensive skills that mitigate damage without requiring them to stop attacking for the duration of the defence. Neither dodging nor stealth offer that, with both you have to stop attacking and for the duration of the defence.

Give me an example, please. Tell me a skill which offers better damage mitigation compared to Pistol Whip.

frans.8092:

It’s a guardian skill, why do you mention it here?

Because it is quite similiar to Smoke Screen?
Both blocks projectiles. The guardian skill reflects them, Smoke Screen also inflict blindness.
What is your perfect recharge for Smoke Screen to be considered worthy?
20s? 15s? 10s? On initiative?

sorrow.2364:

frans.8092:

Nope, it isn’t, you’re confused, Shadow Return removes a condition. Shadow Step is not a condition Remover, if you say that, you don’t understand it.

Are you really doing this? Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

Your posts are the only thing ridiculous in this thread. While the condition removal on shadow return is a nice side-effect, no thief would use up the combos for condition removal. So no, they aren’t condition removals.

frans.8092:

They have defensive skills that mitigate damage without requiring them to stop attacking for the duration of the defence. Neither dodging nor stealth offer that, with both you have to stop attacking and for the duration of the defence.

Give me an example, please.

Examples of damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking, you mean like Protective Shield, Protector’s Strike, Valorous Defense, Shield of Judgment, Prismatic Understanding, Symbol of Protection or Protective Spirit? Just to name a few,

frans.8092:

It’s a guardian skill, why do you mention it here?

Because it is quite similiar to Smoke Screen?[/quote] So?

What is your perfect recharge for Smoke Screen to be considered worthy?
20s? 15s? 10s? On initiative?

It’s good for what it’s supposed to do, which isn’t supplementing Black Powder.

frans.8092:

Your posts are the only thing ridiculous in this thread. While the condition removal on shadow return is a nice side-effect, no thief would use up the combos for condition removal. So no, they aren’t condition removals.

So, because you don’t use them as condition removals, they aren’t condition removals.
Who is ridiculous here?

frans.8092:

Examples of damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking, you mean like Protective Shield, Protector’s Strike, Valorous Defense, Shield of Judgment, Prismatic Understanding, Symbol of Protection or Protective Spirit? Just to name a few,

33% damage mitigation vs 100% damage mitigation from evading/dodging. Your argument is invalid.
You want to facetank, even if you didn’t mentioned it. It is obvious.
Protection is the definition of facetank. Then, you should change profession.

frans.8092:

It’s good for what it’s supposed to do, which isn’t supplementing Black Powder.

You said the recharge is too long. It isn’t. It is an amazing support skill in dungeon.

just run http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlUmSOHdS9E+JFy2jdqC5J/DklWBaq/AXB-jwyAYLioRCCIRBhqgRWCUyrIasVN0iKR0ouGT5SEVbvLiWNA-e you can even solo alfa whit it.

@Sorrow: Pistol whip is not 100% evade time, it’s about 50% of the cast duration. Then, you factor in the after cast, and it’s about 33% evade duration while spamming pistol whip, not including time spent on recharging initiative when you run out. Permanent protection is thus better (and the stun on pistol whip is useless against a boss with defiant, and spamming it will only prevent useful interrupts.) Shadowstep’s priority for use is stun break → positioning → condi removal. Don’t bring it just for condi removal.

Thief can solo alpha, lupi, complete some dungeons by himself. Doesn’t make it a good class though. In normal dungeons/speed runs they bring nothing to the table. Warriors have similar/arguably more multi target DPS, give might, fury, are tankier, banners, better ranged

Thief gets similar DPS at the cost of survivability,..venom share? and stealth.

Venom share is widely regarded as useless in a dungeon when you could have warrior banners, and stealth is sometimes considered a detriment because the buggy dungeons will sometimes have their bosses reset if the group stealths for even a second.

thief isnt needed in dungeon? oh maybe you should stop spamming your heart seeker and actually l2p, you’ve never see anything yet.

I run dungeons the same D/D build i use in WvW, except i switch the fall damage trait for might on dodge. I don’t find myself useless at all. It is true i don’t throw out protection and regeneration buffs on allies, but if they ever get downed, I can easily resurrect them. Even if they were in the middle of a huge number of enemies. Moreover, with a thief, mob skipping is much easier. Both of these “services” can’t be done while playing a warrior.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s silly to expect a game that’s focused on PvP, where the primary driving factor behind PvP is strictly DPS, to actively nerf DPS output of various classes. Especially classes (warriors) that aren’t doing well at said PvP currently.

How about we take a novel approach and make the Thief about more than DPS? Why can’t the Thief have a poison that, when allies strike the target with poison, they gain fury? Why can’t share poison be a level 5 trait and poisons be changed to actually provide something useful? I mean we have the whole poison mechanic for this class that no one ever uses because poisons flat out suck. And not only do they suck, but they’d have to be horrendously overpowered to ever be considered over things like Shadowstep, shadow refuge, blinding powder, etc.

Personally, I think asking for more damage from the Thief is just opening up other issues because we’d have to sacrifice to gain it. Right now the largest complaint against this class is stealth uptime. I could see them nerfing our stealth uptime in favor of added damage (which I’m cool with). The easist method to add damage would be to change our stealth skills (backstab, etc.) to work from the back even when out of stealth but have an internal cooldown.

For example, when striking from the back, your third attack will be a backstab instead on a 4 second cooldown (long enough so you’d only do it every other rotation) that deals 150% damage (instead of 200% from stealth).

But yea, I don’t see them nerfing any class’ damage. I don’t see them increasing our damage without equal nerfs in other areas (most likely stealth). The better solution would be to just add utility for this class so it not only has value to PvE groups, but the current WvW meta as well.

You dont see them nerfing any class’ dmg? Have you paid attention to the nerfs thieves have already gotten? Every single patch has nerfed some aspect of a thief damage output…

Molch.2078:

frans, have I insulted you? You sound angry. If so, I appologize, that was never my intention.

The OP claimed, that a thief has nothing but damage. I argued, that AoE blind and stealth can be usefull in various situations. You cannot deny that.

The OP claimed, that thiefs die a lot in dungeons. I gave a few examples, how you can avoid damage. I play my full zerker thief in arah and I die as rarely as I die with any other class. Furthermore, I see no reason to give you any proof whatsoever. You don’t believe me? Fine. Why should I care?

What’s your point anyway? That a theif sucks in dungeons? Well, I play every class but engeneer and I can say for sure, that the thief is one of the stronger classes for dungeons. If you think a thief is bad, go reroll ranger or necro, then we talk again.

LOL thats all I can say… i love your line “if you think a thief is bad roll a ranger or a necro” See, my main is a thief… I leveled him from 1-80 in combat, done dungeons with him, and some pvp as well. I have a good number of hours on him…. and still get creamed in dungeons. So, I started a Ranger… I leveled him through crafting, no combat. I bought his gear as suggested on some forum somewhere…. then I took him into a dungeon, with the same group of people I take my thief with… guess what… my ranger has never ever died in any dungeon.

I can go on and on…. I take thief to Sun whatever coast thingy with the giant spitting crab thingies… he dies near constantly. Take my ranger there, and Im taking on vets like they are trash mobs.

Ranger: Better range, better dmg (because of pet), better heals, same amount of dodge capability, better utility skills, better synergy than thief. And lets not forget the fact that I have never had to change the build of my ranger while the thief, due to nerfs, has had to change build every single patch.

sorrow.2364:

I’ll take this.

Everyone can eat that food, so it doesn’t make thief’s endurance regain special. Why do you mention buffs that everyone has access to as something special for the thief?
You don’t use your heal on recharge, you use it when you need to heal, so you don’t get vigor every 15 seconds.

Feline Grace does.
If you have trouble keeping up vigor, try Bountiful Theft.

Yeah, like those, 4 extra seconds relatively carefree dishing out damage. You don’t deal damage while stealthed, or dodging. Damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking is better then damage mitigation that forces you to stop attacking. Thief has only has access to the latter and none of the first.

Do you really think that 4s on a 60s cooldown of carefree damage makes that much of a difference?

Its 4 seconds of damage mitigation while continuing to attack… while a dodge is 1 dodge 1 attack and no attacking… so yes, it does make that much of a difference.
Lets do the math… lets say your dps and the thief dps is matched at say 100 dmg per second. And lets say you are fighting each other. You start attacking the thief, he dodges. If he is quick on the keyboard, he dodges about 90% of your attacks… so he still takes 10% of it. You, however, because the thief has dodged the entire time, have taken nothing. After taking 10% of your dmg, the thief decides to attack instead of dodge… so you hit your 4second dmg mitigation. Now, thief does no dmg but takes 100% of your attacks. Thief uses a heal… you still have taken no dmg…. thief has now used a bunch of end, a heal, and is probably still down on HP if only a little. Thief comes in to attack.. you dont have your 4s mitigation up… but you have full HP and a heal still in reserve. But you decide to dodge an attack because by now, you have about 15 seconds left on your dmg mititgation thingy. so you dodge, thief is back to full hp from regen and full endurance due to vigor. You come in for your attacks. Thief dodges until end is out… now he is a sitting duck, dead in seconds… you barely took any damage at all and all of this is because you can still do dmg while taking little to none. So yea, 4 seconds is a big deal in fights that last only a few seconds anyhow.