Guild Wars 2

Serum.4067:

Vladanmit.4052:

I personally think that the reason why they’re not buffing thieves is that everyone is just crying all the time about how they’re OP , which they’re not. But who cares, I’m still gonna rip them all a new one regardless of the changes. xD

Thieves aren’t OP as a whole, but Black Powder and S/D builds are. I have a thief toon and it’s kitten easy to get away from any situation with the BP + HS combo. This unlimited “Get Out Of Jail Free” card needs to be removed. Thieves have way too much leeway in those builds when it comes to getting unlimited resets. It’s not balanced whatsoever. Committing a mistake usually results in death on other classes, I’m glad you guys will finally feel that pain.

So, your extensive experience on your ‘thief toon’ tell you that s/d builds should be nerfed because black powder/heartseeker combo is strong? I guess we all know now how much experience you really have with the class.

Geiir.7603:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Serum.4067:

Vladanmit.4052:

I personally think that the reason why they’re not buffing thieves is that everyone is just crying all the time about how they’re OP , which they’re not. But who cares, I’m still gonna rip them all a new one regardless of the changes. xD

Thieves aren’t OP as a whole, but Black Powder and S/D builds are. I have a thief toon and it’s kitten easy to get away from any situation with the BP + HS combo. This unlimited “Get Out Of Jail Free” card needs to be removed. Thieves have way too much leeway in those builds when it comes to getting unlimited resets. It’s not balanced whatsoever. Committing a mistake usually results in death on other classes, I’m glad you guys will finally feel that pain.

I still think the BP field should be changed to Dark to keep the blinding portion of the ability, while removing the “Get Out of Jail Free” card. Not to mention it buffs P/P’s sustain by giving it a field it can use for leech projectile combo finishers.

Doing so would completely destroy d/p since it will lose almost all of its burst by losing stealth. But this get out of jail free card you speak of are only true for WvW. Yes, the thief can bolt off, but it is not because of black powder and heartseeker. It is because of our amazing mobility through shadowsteps.

No D/P stealth spamming thief I’ve ran into in WvW has uses Shadowstep. They use Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Skale Venom, and Basilisk Venom. They don’t need to escape when they can easily make you try to in a single burst, and then down you while you try to escape. You can’t even stop the stealth spam if you tried because BP will blind you, and they stand in the smoke field for less than a second to HS from it.

They overload themselves on stealth because they know it’s all they need to escape with and kill the enemy with. I’m fine with heavy stealth use being caused by utilities, but not with a “No Risk High Reward” weapon skill combo.

@ Geiir.7603 lol what are you talkign about crying? me? all I am just enjoying all the tears.
I have killed many thieves but there are those chosen few and I mean few that it doesnt even mean if u have the fastest reaction time, which mine is pretty fast to counter the 1-2 stun poof ur dead. I dont know what your talking about but all I have to say to that is lol. And the "crazy Buffs’ rangers will possibly get, yea thats great that just brings up the rangers maybe to par, and I say maybe. Lets look at this in WVW and take a comparison.
Rangers-Owned pretty much by all classes(roaming or zerg) no matter regen/condi build or power. Mesmers- Pretty much can kill anything except thieves. Eles – Does well against most classes but has to run more times then not, Warriors- Can beat any class except Mesmers and Thieves, Guardians- Can kill most classes, except Thieves, Mesmers and Warriors, Engineers- Can Kill most classes except Bad thieves and bad mesmers, Thieves- Can rek all classes….. Unless your a baddie and even baddies can kill most.

d/p stealth thieves can be easy to counter ….. all u need to do is use pulls and pushes stuns and daze to stop there black powder heart seeker combo ……

idk what all the buzz is about d/p thieves lol but

u break the combo u break the thief ….

edit :
especially if u save your combo breaker when they are low on health trying to run away!

caveman.5840:

d/p stealth thieves can be easy to counter ….. all u need to do is use pulls and pushes stuns and daze to stop there black powder heart seeker combo ……

idk what all the buzz is about d/p thieves lol but

u break the combo u break the thief

Requires you to not be blinded, which Blinding Powder does with a single shot. Unless you’re an engineer with Goggles equipped or you have Aegis, you’re going to be hit with a blind, which by itself makes it impossible to cancel the combo.

RyuDragnier.9476:

caveman.5840:

d/p stealth thieves can be easy to counter ….. all u need to do is use pulls and pushes stuns and daze to stop there black powder heart seeker combo ……

idk what all the buzz is about d/p thieves lol but

u break the combo u break the thief

Requires you to not be blinded, which Blinding Powder does with a single shot. Unless you’re an engineer with Goggles equipped or you have Aegis, you’re going to be hit with a blind, which by itself makes it impossible to cancel the combo.

Or just clear the blind then use CC.

The argument to not use counterplay because you have to take 1 extra step is dumb

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

caveman.5840:

d/p stealth thieves can be easy to counter ….. all u need to do is use pulls and pushes stuns and daze to stop there black powder heart seeker combo ……

idk what all the buzz is about d/p thieves lol but

u break the combo u break the thief

Requires you to not be blinded, which Blinding Powder does with a single shot. Unless you’re an engineer with Goggles equipped or you have Aegis, you’re going to be hit with a blind, which by itself makes it impossible to cancel the combo.

Or just clear the blind then use CC.

The argument to not use counterplay because you have to take 1 extra step is dumb

It takes 1 second from using BP to enter stealth with Heartseeker. Guess how long it takes to cleanse a condition…1 second.

Ryu you play a ranger….you can clear that blind from 1200 range

l2p issue here

T raw.4658:

Ryu you play a ranger….you can clear that blind from 1200 range

l2p issue here

I mained Ranger for about 8 months (November 11th of 2012 was when I started) before switching to thief. I still play Ranger every now and then, but Thief is my go-to right now for everything, because unlike Ranger, I can actively support with Shadow Protector, Thrill of the Crime, Bountiful Theft, and Signet of Agility, compared to Ranger’s Healing Spring. I LIKE playing group support, something I can’t do right now with Ranger.

And clearing the blind again means nothing if they can still spam stealth so easily without any downsides to it. And no, wasted initiative is not a downside if you can still gain it while in stealth. Stealth is powerful, and getting access to that is fine, ONLY IF THERE’S A DOWNSIDE/COUNTER TO IT.

For example, Cloak and Dagger is fine because it requires the thief getting into close range to use it, so they can hit all manner of AoE on the way to do it, so it’s easily countered.

Hide in Shadows is fine because you used a heal for it and it has a 30 second cooldown.

Blinding Powder is fine because it’s on a 40 second cooldown (32s traited).

Shadow Refuge is fine because it’s a visible AoE you have to stand in the entire duration to keep the stealth, so it’s easily countered with AoEs and cleaving attacks because you KNOW the thief is in that circle.

Smokescreen -> Heartseeker is fine because that Smokescreen is on a 30s cooldown (24s traited).

Black Powder -> Heartseeker combo however is NOT fine because there’s no counter to it and it has almost no cooldown. Within 1 second of that field going down the Thief has Heartseeker’d through it and into stealth. That’s too fast to remove blind and counter him, that’s too fast for AoE to go down, that’s too fast for any kind of counter. Either we change the field from Smoke to Dark to get rid of this (which destroys the D/P burst while buffing P/P’s sustain), or we make it so the blind field goes on the enemy location so you have to get close to do it. Because right now BP->HS is No Risk, High Reward.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Because right now BP->HS is No Risk, High Reward.

Really?

Because there’s no risk of getting CC’ed and losing 9 initiative and having to stun break and hope you can get away? Which definitely can’t be achieve by using quick/instant casts to clear the blind followed by quick/instant cast CC’s. Also the blind shot is impossible to avoid by hiding behind AI, out ranging (cuz it has infinite range), LoS (because it pierces walls), evading (because it’s like a sky hammer shot), blocking (because the blind shot is unblockable), invulning (because it breaks unvuln), using condi immunity (because it strips condi immunity). It’s also not like people attacking would ever line up in a way that the blind would immediately be cleansed, and it’s still impossible to follow up with a quick/instant CC.

Or because once you’re in stealth you’re completely invincible and can’t take damage and condi’s stop ticking on you?

Or because once you’re in stealth there’s absolutely no proper way to respond in order to mitigate or completely nullify the damage?

Or because even if the damage is landed the thief didn’t just spend 9 initiative which doesn’t take 9 seconds to naturally replinish, which definitely doesn’t mean if they do that combo 2 or 3 times it definitely doesn’t take 18 seconds or 27 seconds to naturally regen that initiative.

Or maybe it’s because even when that from behind damage lands, because it always does no matter what, it always 1 shots and leaves no opportunity to respond?

Wow, I’ve had the wrong thoughts on this whole time it seems.

I’m going to continue playing thief post patch. The nerfs likely won’t be too important but I’m worried the other profession’s buffs might be too much to handle. I can play d/p s/p s/d at top levels so as long as one of those sets still work I’ll still play.

However, over the last month I’ve gotten good enough with engi that I’m probably more effective on it (which when looking at the time spent is disgusting imo). At least I have a back up plan should things turn out as bad as everyone fears…

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Because right now BP->HS is No Risk, High Reward.

Really?

Because there’s no risk of getting CC’ed and losing 9 initiative and having to stun break and hope you can get away? Which definitely can’t be achieve by using quick/instant casts to clear the blind followed by quick/instant cast CC’s. Also the blind shot is impossible to avoid by hiding behind AI, out ranging (cuz it has infinite range), LoS (because it pierces walls), evading (because it’s like a sky hammer shot), blocking (because the blind shot is unblockable), invulning (because it breaks unvuln), using condi immunity (because it strips condi immunity). It’s also not like people attacking would ever line up in a way that the blind would immediately be cleansed, and it’s still impossible to follow up with a quick/instant CC.

This would work if Black Powder had a better tell than just a single shot, because right now you have less than a second to react to something that looks exactly the same as Head Shot’s animation that WILL put blind on you, unless you’re a Guardian since you’d have a very easily accessible Aegis that’s constantly coming on.

Shockwave.1230:

Or because once you’re in stealth you’re completely invincible and can’t take damage and condi’s stop ticking on you?

Requires you to be hit by conditions before stealth, or for the opponent to guess and actually get your position right, which 90% of the time they do not.

Shockwave.1230:

Or because once you’re in stealth there’s absolutely no proper way to respond in order to mitigate or completely nullify the damage?

The person who you’re fighting gets maybe 1-3 shots at blocking/evading Backstab, then they can’t do it again for at least 10 seconds…while you can spam Backstab until you succeed, because there’s no penalty for Backstab being dodged/blocked.

Shockwave.1230:

Or because even if the damage is landed the thief didn’t just spend 9 initiative which doesn’t take 9 seconds to naturally replinish, which definitely doesn’t mean if they do that combo 2 or 3 times it definitely doesn’t take 18 seconds or 27 seconds to naturally regen that initiative.

That would only be a problem if most players weren’t downed by 1-2 Backstabs, even if they’ve used their heal. If you’re running D/P’s BP→HS combo that much, you’re so glassy that 1 hit is all you need.

Shockwave.1230:

Or maybe it’s because even when that from behind damage lands, because it always does no matter what, it always 1 shots and leaves no opportunity to respond?

Not always, but it leaves the opponent in a position to where they have to immediately heal and try to escape or take out the thief, neither of which succeed most of the time. And all it takes is 3 seconds for a thief to use the combo again for stealth, and then a backstab to down the opponent.

RyuDragnier.9476:

T raw.4658:

Ryu you play a ranger….you can clear that blind from 1200 range

l2p issue here

I mained Ranger for about 8 months (November 11th of 2012 was when I started) before switching to thief. I still play Ranger every now and then, but Thief is my go-to right now for everything, because unlike Ranger, I can actively support with Shadow Protector, Thrill of the Crime, Bountiful Theft, and Signet of Agility, compared to Ranger’s Healing Spring. I LIKE playing group support, something I can’t do right now with Ranger.

And clearing the blind again means nothing if they can still spam stealth so easily without any downsides to it. And no, wasted initiative is not a downside if you can still gain it while in stealth. Stealth is powerful, and getting access to that is fine, ONLY IF THERE’S A DOWNSIDE/COUNTER TO IT.

For example, Cloak and Dagger is fine because it requires the thief getting into close range to use it, so they can hit all manner of AoE on the way to do it, so it’s easily countered.

Hide in Shadows is fine because you used a heal for it and it has a 30 second cooldown.

Blinding Powder is fine because it’s on a 40 second cooldown (32s traited).

Shadow Refuge is fine because it’s a visible AoE you have to stand in the entire duration to keep the stealth, so it’s easily countered with AoEs and cleaving attacks because you KNOW the thief is in that circle.

Smokescreen -> Heartseeker is fine because that Smokescreen is on a 30s cooldown (24s traited).

Black Powder -> Heartseeker combo however is NOT fine because there’s no counter to it and it has almost no cooldown. Within 1 second of that field going down the Thief has Heartseeker’d through it and into stealth. That’s too fast to remove blind and counter him, that’s too fast for AoE to go down, that’s too fast for any kind of counter. Either we change the field from Smoke to Dark to get rid of this (which destroys the D/P burst while buffing P/P’s sustain), or we make it so the blind field goes on the enemy location so you have to get close to do it. Because right now BP->HS is No Risk, High Reward.

I kill D/P thieves all the time.

Not that hard to manage BP mate…..it’s a l2p issue

RyuDragnier.9476:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Because right now BP->HS is No Risk, High Reward.

Really?

Because there’s no risk of getting CC’ed and losing 9 initiative and having to stun break and hope you can get away? Which definitely can’t be achieve by using quick/instant casts to clear the blind followed by quick/instant cast CC’s. Also the blind shot is impossible to avoid by hiding behind AI, out ranging (cuz it has infinite range), LoS (because it pierces walls), evading (because it’s like a sky hammer shot), blocking (because the blind shot is unblockable), invulning (because it breaks unvuln), using condi immunity (because it strips condi immunity). It’s also not like people attacking would ever line up in a way that the blind would immediately be cleansed, and it’s still impossible to follow up with a quick/instant CC.

This would work if Black Powder had a better tell than just a single shot, because right now you have less than a second to react to something that looks exactly the same as Head Shot’s animation that WILL put blind on you, unless you’re a Guardian since you’d have a very easily accessible Aegis that’s constantly coming on.

Shockwave.1230:

Or because once you’re in stealth you’re completely invincible and can’t take damage and condi’s stop ticking on you?

Requires you to be hit by conditions before stealth, or for the opponent to guess and actually get your position right, which 90% of the time they do not.

Shockwave.1230:

Or because once you’re in stealth there’s absolutely no proper way to respond in order to mitigate or completely nullify the damage?

The person who you’re fighting gets maybe 1-3 shots at blocking/evading Backstab, then they can’t do it again for at least 10 seconds…while you can spam Backstab until you succeed, because there’s no penalty for Backstab being dodged/blocked.

Shockwave.1230:

Or because even if the damage is landed the thief didn’t just spend 9 initiative which doesn’t take 9 seconds to naturally replinish, which definitely doesn’t mean if they do that combo 2 or 3 times it definitely doesn’t take 18 seconds or 27 seconds to naturally regen that initiative.

That would only be a problem if most players weren’t downed by 1-2 Backstabs, even if they’ve used their heal. If you’re running D/P’s BP->HS combo that much, you’re so glassy that 1 hit is all you need.

Shockwave.1230:

Or maybe it’s because even when that from behind damage lands, because it always does no matter what, it always 1 shots and leaves no opportunity to respond?

Not always, but it leaves the opponent in a position to where they have to immediately heal and try to escape or take out the thief, neither of which succeed most of the time. And all it takes is 3 seconds for a thief to use the combo again for stealth, and then a backstab to down the opponent.

Response quality 3/10
But you get an A for effort

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Serum.4067:

Vladanmit.4052:

I personally think that the reason why they’re not buffing thieves is that everyone is just crying all the time about how they’re OP , which they’re not. But who cares, I’m still gonna rip them all a new one regardless of the changes. xD

Thieves aren’t OP as a whole, but Black Powder and S/D builds are. I have a thief toon and it’s kitten easy to get away from any situation with the BP + HS combo. This unlimited “Get Out Of Jail Free” card needs to be removed. Thieves have way too much leeway in those builds when it comes to getting unlimited resets. It’s not balanced whatsoever. Committing a mistake usually results in death on other classes, I’m glad you guys will finally feel that pain.

I still think the BP field should be changed to Dark to keep the blinding portion of the ability, while removing the “Get Out of Jail Free” card. Not to mention it buffs P/P’s sustain by giving it a field it can use for leech projectile combo finishers.

Doing so would completely destroy d/p since it will lose almost all of its burst by losing stealth. But this get out of jail free card you speak of are only true for WvW. Yes, the thief can bolt off, but it is not because of black powder and heartseeker. It is because of our amazing mobility through shadowsteps.

No D/P stealth spamming thief I’ve ran into in WvW has uses Shadowstep. They use Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Skale Venom, and Basilisk Venom. They don’t need to escape when they can easily make you try to in a single burst, and then down you while you try to escape. You can’t even stop the stealth spam if you tried because BP will blind you, and they stand in the smoke field for less than a second to HS from it.

They overload themselves on stealth because they know it’s all they need to escape with and kill the enemy with. I’m fine with heavy stealth use being caused by utilities, but not with a “No Risk High Reward” weapon skill combo.

A thief with no stunbreak? That will in most cases mean dead thief. One stun and the thief will be dead… Most thieves run shadowstep to counter stuns and as an escape tool. I have to say though, that I haven’t played WvW the last month, but as far as I know the old builds are still meta. D/P also lack burst compared to D/D.

Grumpy: Then how is it that I can wreck thieves in WvW on all my toons and you can’t? Thief is nowhere close to an immortal god, just try to play one and you’ll see. I have to say though, that P/D dire is a bit too survivable, but that is mainly because of dire gear and the condition food / crystals. P/D dire will btw be the new thief meta for WvW with the recent nerfs and buffs we get…

Geiir.7603:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Geiir.7603:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Serum.4067:

Vladanmit.4052:

I personally think that the reason why they’re not buffing thieves is that everyone is just crying all the time about how they’re OP , which they’re not. But who cares, I’m still gonna rip them all a new one regardless of the changes. xD

Thieves aren’t OP as a whole, but Black Powder and S/D builds are. I have a thief toon and it’s kitten easy to get away from any situation with the BP + HS combo. This unlimited “Get Out Of Jail Free” card needs to be removed. Thieves have way too much leeway in those builds when it comes to getting unlimited resets. It’s not balanced whatsoever. Committing a mistake usually results in death on other classes, I’m glad you guys will finally feel that pain.

I still think the BP field should be changed to Dark to keep the blinding portion of the ability, while removing the “Get Out of Jail Free” card. Not to mention it buffs P/P’s sustain by giving it a field it can use for leech projectile combo finishers.

Doing so would completely destroy d/p since it will lose almost all of its burst by losing stealth. But this get out of jail free card you speak of are only true for WvW. Yes, the thief can bolt off, but it is not because of black powder and heartseeker. It is because of our amazing mobility through shadowsteps.

No D/P stealth spamming thief I’ve ran into in WvW has uses Shadowstep. They use Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Skale Venom, and Basilisk Venom. They don’t need to escape when they can easily make you try to in a single burst, and then down you while you try to escape. You can’t even stop the stealth spam if you tried because BP will blind you, and they stand in the smoke field for less than a second to HS from it.

They overload themselves on stealth because they know it’s all they need to escape with and kill the enemy with. I’m fine with heavy stealth use being caused by utilities, but not with a “No Risk High Reward” weapon skill combo.

A thief with no stunbreak? That will in most cases mean dead thief. One stun and the thief will be dead… Most thieves run shadowstep to counter stuns and as an escape tool. I have to say though, that I haven’t played WvW the last month, but as far as I know the old builds are still meta. D/P also lack burst compared to D/D.

Grumpy: Then how is it that I can wreck thieves in WvW on all my toons and you can’t? Thief is nowhere close to an immortal god, just try to play one and you’ll see. I have to say though, that P/D dire is a bit too survivable, but that is mainly because of dire gear and the condition food / crystals. P/D dire will btw be the new thief meta for WvW with the recent nerfs and buffs we get…

You rarely see D/D, P/P, S/D, or P/D thieves in WvW, or at least that’s how it is in Tier 2 from what I’ve seen. All I see is D/P thieves everywhere, just spamming BP→HS combo and Backstabbing for massive damage. I prefer seeing the other sets, which makes it a shame that I rarely see them.

RyuDragnier.9476:

You rarely see D/D, P/P, S/D, or P/D thieves in WvW, or at least that’s how it is in Tier 2 from what I’ve seen. All I see is D/P thieves everywhere, just spamming BP->HS combo and Backstabbing for massive damage. I prefer seeing the other sets, which makes it a shame that I rarely see them.

But nerfing D/P might not be the way to get the other sets out in WvW. If they aren’t played, it’s probably because they aren’t viable in the first place.

stof.9341:

RyuDragnier.9476:

You rarely see D/D, P/P, S/D, or P/D thieves in WvW, or at least that’s how it is in Tier 2 from what I’ve seen. All I see is D/P thieves everywhere, just spamming BP->HS combo and Backstabbing for massive damage. I prefer seeing the other sets, which makes it a shame that I rarely see them.

But nerfing D/P might not be the way to get the other sets out in WvW. If they aren’t played, it’s probably because they aren’t viable in the first place.

Or because D/P is currently the safest and easiest weapon set to use.

RyuDragnier.9476:

stof.9341:

RyuDragnier.9476:

You rarely see D/D, P/P, S/D, or P/D thieves in WvW, or at least that’s how it is in Tier 2 from what I’ve seen. All I see is D/P thieves everywhere, just spamming BP->HS combo and Backstabbing for massive damage. I prefer seeing the other sets, which makes it a shame that I rarely see them.

But nerfing D/P might not be the way to get the other sets out in WvW. If they aren’t played, it’s probably because they aren’t viable in the first place.

Or because D/P is currently the safest and easiest weapon set to use.

S/D and P/D are safer. Invuln frames and Ranged damage. Instead of melee without invuln frames.

@ Geiir i just got my thief to 80 2 days before patch and I am actually enjoying it very much… That was hard to say it takes skill and combos to make anything work right and it is ALOT harder than a D/D Ele. Now with that said I am humbled and now playing after the patch wiht the stealth/Infiltrators Strike or Steal you become unstealthed wow anet not sure if that was intended but GoodfingGame. But at least I get to still rek Rangers with all those buffs they got but it takes a little more skill and thought process….

Have to quote my own post for Anet greatness. Not only did they break the only viable builds we had, they also exceeded my expectations and broke the thief core mechanic. Epicness!

Thieves;
-Will get nerfed directly, and gain useless buffs to useless traits and skills.
-Will get indirectly nerfed by all the other (war excluded) classes getting small-to-big buffs.
-Nerfalicious. GG anet.

That said, I will still love my thief even with the nerfs.

-Steal made to bug like hell, to bring Trickery more into line with other options.