Guild Wars 2

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Calling a 120 radius aoe a multitarget attack in pvp is laughable. You’re never going to hit more than 1 person with that unless it’s a zerg or someone being rezzed.

I’m sorry but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Grenade Barrage
Throw several grenades at once.
Damage: 122
Explosion radius: 150
Number of grenades: 6
Range: 1,200

Taken straight from the wiki

Not to mention that EVERY lvl 80 nade engi ever has the grenadier trait that makes it 8 grenades and increasing the rage to 1500. The skill will always be better in melee distance (much like our cluster bomb) but it still can be used anywhere and be effective.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

You understand that the kit refinement of grenade kit would hit next to nothing if you weren’t inside the hitbox of the target, right?
Which means it is very EASY to miss without cc.

Sounds like you need better aim is all.

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Calling a 120 radius aoe a multitarget attack in pvp is laughable. You’re never going to hit more than 1 person with that unless it’s a zerg or someone being rezzed.

I’m sorry but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Grenade Barrage
Throw several grenades at once.
Damage: 122
Explosion radius: 150
Number of grenades: 6
Range: 1,200

Taken straight from the wiki

Not to mention that EVERY lvl 80 nade engi ever has the grenadier trait that makes it 8 grenades and increasing the rage to 1500. The skill will always be better in melee distance (much like our cluster bomb) but it still can be used anywhere and be effective.

I was referring to using 100nades as an aoe attack. If it is used for the 100nades spike they will all be at the same spot, with their 150 (was wrong on that, oops) radius, not spread out. Used in that fashion it is very unlikely to ever hit anyone but the target unless they’re rezzing someone.

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

You understand that the kit refinement of grenade kit would hit next to nothing if you weren’t inside the hitbox of the target, right?
Which means it is very EASY to miss without cc.

Sounds like you need better aim is all.

If it was so easy to hit with then why would good aim be needed at all?
Maybe because it is not very easy to hit with, and is very dodgeable, since they have very little tolerance for error?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

You understand that the kit refinement of grenade kit would hit next to nothing if you weren’t inside the hitbox of the target, right?
Which means it is very EASY to miss without cc.

Sounds like you need better aim is all.

If it was so easy to hit with then why would good aim be needed at all?
Maybe because it is not very easy to hit with, and is very dodgeable, since they have very little tolerance for error?

So if there was an extremely skilled player out there that could consistently land every throw (except those that were dodged or blinked or w/e), would that person’s insane dps/spike be considered op or would they be allowed to keep this crazy advantage due to the fact that it’s really hard to land everything?

If it was so easy to hit with then why would good aim be needed at all?
Maybe because it is not very easy to hit with, and is very dodgeable,

1. What? Cause good aim is always necessary with skill shots…
2. Never said it was, takes SKILL to land SKILL shots
3. Every ability in the game that has a cast time is very dodgeable. Near insta-cast abilities with no travel time and almost no telegraphic movements or rotations are very hard to dodge.

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

randomfightfan.4091:

1. What? Cause good aim is always necessary with skill shots…
2. Never said it was, takes SKILL to land SKILL shots

So 100nades is a skill shot that is hard to miss is what you’re telling me.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Volrath.1473:

let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)

Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab

By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.

Pretty much this. There’s a lot of play in that build/combo, and so long as you keep your wits about you, you should be okay. There’s also some really interesting feints that can happen withb that build, where at the moment of cloaking, if you let them blow their invulns and dodge rolls early, you can take advantage of it. Everyone expects the damage to come ASAP, but if you delay it even a couple seconds players will blow their skills by over-reacting to it.

If you see this i’d love to hear you reply on the following. Also thanks for posting in here, really interesting to see a developers thoughts on thieves.

So something I think contributes to most of the hate is because in order for thieves to do that amount of damage, it requires a slightly low skill cap (as in it is not hard to get the hang of doing ) while counting it can require a slightly high skill cap (as in players need to know how to predict, dodging mechanics, timing, etc). This on top of you need to be actively paying attention to a thief in a battle (which can be hard on large scale battes in 8v8 or wvw).

Those two things I believe contribute to the hate they receive, and it wont stop imo. Everytime theres a new player, they’re going to jump into a battle and take 10K+ damage from a target. Now this new player lets say has 16k HP. In their eyes they just had someone take out more than half their hp “in seconds”, leading them to believe that thief is op followed by rage post on the forums.

SO thiefs can do that amount of damage and it is easy to counter, its a bit harder to counter for new players or in large scale battles, those are at least what I hear from people who get angry at thiefs. Do you agree or disagree? Do you think the thieves maybe should be slowed down in that dps build or perhaps make it easier to spot through animations what they are doing.

I agree with you that thieves aren’t insanely op in tPvP. However, they reiceve a lot of complains in spvp and WvW and I think should be looked at in some way.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

randomfightfan.4091:

1. What? Cause good aim is always necessary with skill shots…
2. Never said it was, takes SKILL to land SKILL shots

So 100nades is a skill shot that is hard to miss is what you’re telling me.

with the size of its aoe, yes, it is quite hard to miss with it. Clusterbomb travels MUCH slower and has a similar aoe but with far less damage. I still find it quite easy to land. Honestly I didn’t know it was only 150 aoe. While lvling my engi I thought it was HUGE, didn’t realize that the other nades had as big of a blast radius as they do.

Well what is done is done anyways. That weird philosophy from Anet will always surprise me.

randomfightfan.4091:

MrForz.1953:

Nope, definitely not. If you really didn’t like the huge amount of time you had for you to dodge that Magnet Pull there is nothing we can do for you.

Besides… I’m sure that if 100nades was strapped on a Warrior they wouldn’t even look at it, doesn’t feel like “Nobody’s supposed to burst for 24k damage” but rather “Hell no, Engineers shouldn’t do that much damage”.

No possible way to land it other than with magnetic pull? Do you not know how the ability works? It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss. If something jumps on YOU (not you on it) you can still drop it on them and insta them. You can also jump to the enemy, dodge to them, walk towards them casually while you’re fighting, corner them, they corner you, etc. There’s far more ways to land tool belt nades skill then you want to let people know about. Stop trying to sell something short to win b/c right now, you point has more falsehoods in them than facts.

Do you know how the combo even used to work? The burst came from 2 skills not one. The first skill was the Tool Belt and the second was the Kit Refinement spell for Grenade Kit. The spell created by Grenade Kit had a full 360 degree spread so you had to be inside the enemy. Any movement from an enemy with half a brain and majority of the second half of your burst is going to miss.

As for ways to land the skill we had 4 decent openers with Net Shot, Magnet, and Toss Elixir S for either stealth or stability chained to Overcharge Shot. Net Shot is slow moving and easy to dodge if the enemy can see you coming. Magnet pull was the one people complained about because it was hard to see and you could start casting through terrain but it was buggy and sometimes wouldn’t pull people. Stealth from tossing Elixir S made the two of them much easier to land and if you got stability you could open with Overcharged Shot and not knock yourself down but the skill likes to miss if not fired directly straight.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

And unlike backstab burst, 100nades required a setup of Net Shot or Magnet or else it would be impossible to land. Precasting CnD->Steal->Backstab can be done almost instantly. Both are instagib burst builds with very little opportunity for the defender to do anything about it, but 1 got removed while the other remains.

Are you serious? I’m 100% sure you have never played a thief. Backstab can only be used from the back while in stealth, meaning you will ALWAYS see it coming and it requires more than just steal/cnd/backstab if you want to reach that kind of damage. The only way it’ll stun is with the elite basilisk venom which means you’re using up at least 1 utility slot and the elite slot. One stun break and it’s all wasted.

On my own thief I hit blinding powder and I win the fight. That’s how “OP” the backstab spec is.

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

randomfightfan.4091:

1. What? Cause good aim is always necessary with skill shots…
2. Never said it was, takes SKILL to land SKILL shots

So 100nades is a skill shot that is hard to miss is what you’re telling me.

with the size of its aoe, yes, it is quite hard to miss with it. Clusterbomb travels MUCH slower and has a similar aoe but with far less damage. I still find it quite easy to land. Honestly I didn’t know it was only 150 aoe. While lvling my engi I thought it was HUGE, didn’t realize that the other nades had as big of a blast radius as they do.

The effective aoe of the 100nades burst is approximately 50.
Or you think 100nades is Grenade Barrage and thus have no clue what you’re talking about.

Full burst thief in spvp: http://www.twitch.tv/swinsk/b/391434700

Notice the play style is nothing like a 100 nades :/

I start to warm up on the 2nd or 3rd game.

I sense the rise of condition trap thief……….

randomfightfan.4091:

One quick question about your engi though. Why does no one complain about flame thrower 2? Seriously, that ability deals more direct damage than backstab and is yet another ability that deals that kind of spike damage at range.

Aren’t engineer kits unaffected by the player’s stats?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

randomfightfan.4091:

1. What? Cause good aim is always necessary with skill shots…
2. Never said it was, takes SKILL to land SKILL shots

So 100nades is a skill shot that is hard to miss is what you’re telling me.

with the size of its aoe, yes, it is quite hard to miss with it. Clusterbomb travels MUCH slower and has a similar aoe but with far less damage. I still find it quite easy to land. Honestly I didn’t know it was only 150 aoe. While lvling my engi I thought it was HUGE, didn’t realize that the other nades had as big of a blast radius as they do.

The effective aoe of the 100nades burst is approximately 50.
Or you think 100nades is Grenade Barrage and thus have no clue what you’re talking about.

I said using the skill at range is very easy. I didn’t say 1 shotting people at 1500 range was easy. Don’t need to get all huffy puffy about something lost in translation.

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

randomfightfan.4091:

1. What? Cause good aim is always necessary with skill shots…
2. Never said it was, takes SKILL to land SKILL shots

So 100nades is a skill shot that is hard to miss is what you’re telling me.

with the size of its aoe, yes, it is quite hard to miss with it. Clusterbomb travels MUCH slower and has a similar aoe but with far less damage. I still find it quite easy to land. Honestly I didn’t know it was only 150 aoe. While lvling my engi I thought it was HUGE, didn’t realize that the other nades had as big of a blast radius as they do.

The effective aoe of the 100nades burst is approximately 50.
Or you think 100nades is Grenade Barrage and thus have no clue what you’re talking about.

I said using the skill at range is very easy. I didn’t say 1 shotting people at 1500 range was easy. Don’t need to get all huffy puffy about something lost in translation.

You’re right. I went back and reread it and realized that instead of having no clue what you’re talking about referring to the 100nades burst build, you have no idea what you’re talking about and are referring to Grenade Barrage as 100nades.

And still somehow think that something can both be easy to land and be considered a “skill shot”.

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

And unlike backstab burst, 100nades required a setup of Net Shot or Magnet or else it would be impossible to land. Precasting CnD->Steal->Backstab can be done almost instantly. Both are instagib burst builds with very little opportunity for the defender to do anything about it, but 1 got removed while the other remains.

Are you serious? I’m 100% sure you have never played a thief. Backstab can only be used from the back while in stealth, meaning you will ALWAYS see it coming and it requires more than just steal/cnd/backstab if you want to reach that kind of damage. The only way it’ll stun is with the elite basilisk venom which means you’re using up at least 1 utility slot and the elite slot. One stun break and it’s all wasted.

On my own thief I hit blinding powder and I win the fight. That’s how “OP” the backstab spec is.

Are you sure you play a thief? Backstab can be used on a target in ANY position, front/back/side from stealth, though you get double damage while hitting from behind. You can also trait side strike to get an extra 7%.

And for the record, for those who say you cant take down someone instantly with steal/cnd/backstab heres a screen shot. Granted the person was a lvl 62 mesmer(he added me to party) and upleveled in wvw, this guy was done in one shot. I’m full glass cannon and really have no issue hitting 7k+ on light armors level 80s in wvw, and if I want to be a big scrub like 90% of the thiefs out there i’ll just spam HS and have my target dead in the matter of a few seconds.

Also for those who say cluster bomb doesnt hit hard, you’re completely delusional, a 6k+ crit constantly and with the ability to spam it(when you have the initiative) is just as bad/if not worse than the “100 nades” build.

I swear… if you gave people the option to turn the armour on thier gear into power and transfer the base 916 vit and toughnesss into power and precision they would…

And then they would complain exclusively about thieves hitting them for 4million damage backstabs

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You’re right. I went back and reread it and realized that instead of having no clue what you’re talking about referring to the 100nades burst build, you have no idea what you’re talking about and are referring to Grenade Barrage as 100nades.

And still somehow think that something can both be easy to land and be considered a “skill shot”.

wow… I never once said hundred nades. The entire time I was talking about grenade barage (which hits hard on its own). After you realize this you proceed to badger me even more just to make yourself feel superior? You really need to check your attitude man, it’s not constructive or appreciated. Not my fault you mis-understood what I was refering to when you started talking about using grenade barrage as a long ranged 1 shot of entire teams ability. Just like every other spreading-at-range skill, it will spread at range. Still makes it easy to land big numbers when you have that many grenades flying out in an area.

And about the skill shot thing. Warrior whirlwind is a skill shot ability. That doesn’t instantly make it hard to land. I really don’t think you understand what skill shot means which is why you seemed to get angry and act as you did towards me.\

This is the definition of skill shot according to league of legends (from which I got the term years ago).

“A skillshot is a type of champion ability that casts a projectile that originates from a point of cast, typically the casting champion, as opposed to directly targeting an unit. Circular area of effect abilities are not considered skillshots.”

Grenades are considered a skill shot as the grenades are coming from you, the ability caster, and still can hit things along the travel path. It also isn’t some delayed circle ability as that is referring to abilities very similar to bomb kit bombs or timed abilities that are placed (big ol bomb, ranger barrage, even supply drop).

I hope this helped

globe.7238:

Snip

Why post screenshots like that one?
If you play the same game I play you, should know that these numbers (not just the one you highlighted but all of them) can only be pulled off on a very low lvl player <30 in WvWvW, on a lvl 80 fully geared, even if he is a glass cannon spec in berserker gear, you will never be able to do such dmg.

FYI side strike gives 7% crit chance not dmg and if you are able to down ANYONE by spamming HS i would LOVE to duel you and prove you wrong.

Volrath.1473:

globe.7238:

Snip

Why post screenshots like that one?
If you play the same game I play you, should know that these numbers (not just the one you highlighted but all of them) can only be pulled off on a very low lvl player <30 in WvWvW, on a lvl 80 fully geared, even if he is a glass cannon spec in berserker gear, you will never be able to do such dmg.

FYI side strike gives 7% crit chance not dmg and if you are able to down ANYONE by spamming HS i would LOVE to duel you and prove you wrong.

I’m not allowed to post screen captures? When I get time i’ll jump on and try to grab some for you against some lvl 80s, of course backstab wont nearly be 17k, and steal/cnd will probably be around 5-6k with a following backstab of 6k+. If you even read my post I said granted this person was “upleveled”.

Lol @ this duel crap, are you simple or can you just not read? I was mocking how 90% of the thiefs out there do nothing but spam HS, clearly something you cannot comprehend. Offended much?

Oh and yeah you’re right about side strike, sorry I wasnt able to check before I posted that, though a thief isnt my main so my mistake.

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You’re right. I went back and reread it and realized that instead of having no clue what you’re talking about referring to the 100nades burst build, you have no idea what you’re talking about and are referring to Grenade Barrage as 100nades.

And still somehow think that something can both be easy to land and be considered a “skill shot”.

wow… I never once said hundred nades. The entire time I was talking about grenade barage (which hits hard on its own). After you realize this you proceed to badger me even more just to make yourself feel superior? You really need to check your attitude man, it’s not constructive or appreciated. Not my fault you mis-understood what I was refering to when you started talking about using grenade barrage as a long ranged 1 shot of entire teams ability. Just like every other spreading-at-range skill, it will spread at range. Still makes it easy to land big numbers when you have that many grenades flying out in an area.

What you quoted originally was talking about 100nades, which you responded to without changing the subject to Grenade Barrage, therefore your subject remained 100nades.
The entire conversation was about 100nades, not Grenade Barrage, as GB is not a problem on its own. Then you come in, start talking about GB without actually changing the subject, and you look like an idiot because it looks like you think 100nades is easy to land and has a huge effective radius.

Not my fault you lack the communication skills needed for a coherent conversation.

Deified.7520:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Volrath.1473:

let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)

Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab

By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.

Pretty much this. There’s a lot of play in that build/combo, and so long as you keep your wits about you, you should be okay. There’s also some really interesting feints that can happen withb that build, where at the moment of cloaking, if you let them blow their invulns and dodge rolls early, you can take advantage of it. Everyone expects the damage to come ASAP, but if you delay it even a couple seconds players will blow their skills by over-reacting to it.

If you see this i’d love to hear you reply on the following. Also thanks for posting in here, really interesting to see a developers thoughts on thieves.

So something I think contributes to most of the hate is because in order for thieves to do that amount of damage, it requires a slightly low skill cap (as in it is not hard to get the hang of doing ) while counting it can require a slightly high skill cap (as in players need to know how to predict, dodging mechanics, timing, etc). This on top of you need to be actively paying attention to a thief in a battle (which can be hard on large scale battes in 8v8 or wvw).

Those two things I believe contribute to the hate they receive, and it wont stop imo. Everytime theres a new player, they’re going to jump into a battle and take 10K+ damage from a target. Now this new player lets say has 16k HP. In their eyes they just had someone take out more than half their hp “in seconds”, leading them to believe that thief is op followed by rage post on the forums.

SO thiefs can do that amount of damage and it is easy to counter, its a bit harder to counter for new players or in large scale battles, those are at least what I hear from people who get angry at thiefs. Do you agree or disagree? Do you think the thieves maybe should be slowed down in that dps build or perhaps make it easier to spot through animations what they are doing.

I agree with you that thieves aren’t insanely op in tPvP. However, they reiceve a lot of complains in spvp and WvW and I think should be looked at in some way.

If this is the case, Killshot should be nerfed as well. If you can’t see a Thief coming in from 900 range then surely you can’t see a Warrior Killshotting from 1500 range away, even in a zerg, right? People should complain more about Killshot than anything else in that scenario really.

1500 range, like 2x the damage of Backstab without being in danger, pierces through targets up till 1500 range (so no limits of how many people it pierces through) above all that; can be done every frickin’ 10 secs(8 secs if traited for even!).

This might be true and all what with all the QQ in these subforums from people with the reaction speed of a dead potato, but I’d love to see how these QQ’ers are going to talk themselves out of this one. Perhaps “oh, it’s an obvious 1,75 sec cast time so we can dodge out of it”, yea from 1500 range. If you can, then how can you NOT dodge a 0,5 sec precast CnD from a Thief running in like a bloodthirsty fothermuncher while having basilisk activated on him and trying to get within 900 range?

Fenrir.4237:

If you can, then how can you NOT dodge a 0,5 sec precast CnD from a Thief running in like a bloodthirsty fothermuncher while having basilisk activated on him and trying to get within 900 range?

I also find it funny when people try to rationalise this by saying stuff like “Oh the Thief will just use Shortbow until he has opportunity to do the burst” as if that scenario isn’t even more obvious (Swapping SB > D/D at 900 range > 1 second BV cast > CnD pre-cast is kinda obvious…)

Or other things like “Rifle Warriors have no way to create a gap between you and them” ignoring the 1500 range already between them and the ability for a Warrior to swap to GS and use Rush > Whirlwind Attack to put more distance in.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

What you quoted originally was talking about 100nades, which you responded to without changing the subject to Grenade Barrage, therefore your subject remained 100nades.
The entire conversation was about 100nades, not Grenade Barrage, as GB is not a problem on its own. Then you come in, start talking about GB without actually changing the subject, and you look like an idiot because it looks like you think 100nades is easy to land and has a huge effective radius.

Not my fault you lack the communication skills needed for a coherent conversation.

Is true, I made a mistake there. Still don’t know why you try to make yourself out to be the jerk at every topic. seriously, please stop that… it’s very annoying. Also, one of the topics you quoted was me linking grenade barrage and me commenting on the skill itself.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Hey folks, I figured I would swoop in and drop a reply.

I remember playing my ranger in PvP and getting “2-spammed” by a D/D thief and dying in about 3-5 seconds. I had no idea how to stop them, and they seemed intent on finding my heart. I couldn’t even hit the bugger since he blinded me and pulled a stun off. I remember thinking to myself “Man, my ranger couldn’t do 19k damage in five seconds. Thief OP!” Until I actually went and made such a thief out of spite. I’ll admit right now I am not much a thief player… Only about level 30 in PvE, and about 10 games played as thief in SPvP – but in those few games I would just dominate people. Load up the +% damage traits, stealth, and then it’s just a matter of a few button presses. But in playing that thief, I learned how to counter that thief. Bring a stun breaker, a condi removal, some CC, and know how/when to dodge roll. It doesn’t work all the time, especially if my stunbreaker is on CD from a previous fight (Pistol Whip is rough!), but if a thief gets the jump on me I have about 2 seconds to react, and then I make the thief pay.
I consider things like “hundred nades bug” to be OP, where a single attack dos 26k damage in an AOE. Sacrificing so much versatility/defense to be a glass cannon spiker is not OP, it’s a build. That build is just really really good at spiking, and it overpowers almost any other build the thief can bring to deal damage. There are a few builds you don’t see often with thieves that are pretty good, because players weigh efficiency in murdering something quickly to be greater than surviving a drawn out encounter, so they’ll bring the most efficient build to accomplish that… which in my experience has been the D/D heart seeker. There’s some neat shadow-step steal/pistolwhip/quickness/unload type builds out there, but that D/D thief overpowers and obscures the potential for other builds to rise up. In my eyes they could use some more versatility… I know that when I play my ranger I can many different things at once – I have a large tool box of sometimes very useful tools, and that makes me harder to bring down since I am not so easily countered.

Well this is longer than I was thinking it would be, and now I have subjected the thief forum to my punctuation, so I better stop. Also I’ll admit to being little on edge in this forum… I’m a ranger in the middle of a thieves den!

I hope you’re working hard on getting our 3 seconds of reveal debuff back. If you are, I love you long time!

globe.7238:

Volrath.1473:

globe.7238:

Snip

Why post screenshots like that one?
If you play the same game I play you, should know that these numbers (not just the one you highlighted but all of them) can only be pulled off on a very low lvl player <30 in WvWvW, on a lvl 80 fully geared, even if he is a glass cannon spec in berserker gear, you will never be able to do such dmg.

FYI side strike gives 7% crit chance not dmg and if you are able to down ANYONE by spamming HS i would LOVE to duel you and prove you wrong.

I’m not allowed to post screen captures? When I get time i’ll jump on and try to grab some for you against some lvl 80s, of course backstab wont nearly be 17k, and steal/cnd will probably be around 5-6k with a following backstab of 6k+. If you even read my post I said granted this person was “upleveled”.

Lol @ this duel crap, are you simple or can you just not read? I was mocking how 90% of the thiefs out there do nothing but spam HS, clearly something you cannot comprehend. Offended much?

Oh and yeah you’re right about side strike, sorry I wasnt able to check before I posted that, though a thief isnt my main so my mistake.

actually I can read unlike you apparently… I asked why post that kind of screen shot i NEVER said you weren’t allowed or should not be posting them.

Here is what you said about HS spamming

“and if I want to be a big scrub like 90% of the thiefs out there i’ll just spam HS and have my target dead in the matter of a few seconds.”

If you chose to play like you just said you did come duel me to prove you wrong, no offence taken nor intended.

Oh and btw its THIEVES not thiefs…

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

What you quoted originally was talking about 100nades, which you responded to without changing the subject to Grenade Barrage, therefore your subject remained 100nades.
The entire conversation was about 100nades, not Grenade Barrage, as GB is not a problem on its own. Then you come in, start talking about GB without actually changing the subject, and you look like an idiot because it looks like you think 100nades is easy to land and has a huge effective radius.

Not my fault you lack the communication skills needed for a coherent conversation.

Is true, I made a mistake there. Still don’t know why you try to make yourself out to be the jerk at every topic. seriously, please stop that… it’s very annoying. Also, one of the topics you quoted was me linking grenade barrage and me commenting on the skill itself.

Eh don’t mind him dude. He’s just going to pick at every little wrong thing you might of said and not even discuss the main point your post is trying to make. Did that with me too in the other thread. Your point still holds.

And yea totally agree Taril. The only other argument (and probably the best) I could make is to try playing a Thief themselves and make a video of how they do everything as they say and how “OP” it is, or heck even better yet, try the exact same tactic they complain about against someone that doesn’t have the reaction speed of a dead potato and has at least half a brain. Yea, maybe I’m kinda harsh, but I find it even harsher that how you Thief whiners are still going on about this topic, not even considering any tips the Thief subforums gave you to counter this “burst” and still continue to whine about it and the worst part being, without ANY shame.

Yea, the “burst” might have a low skillfloor, but Killshot has an even lower skillfloor with SO much more reward AND a channeling ability on the same weaponset that can’t be just dodged with 1 dodge unlike “1hko” attacks like Killshot and Backstab.

please nerf the thief in wvw/spvp as much as you wish,
but please balance the pve one, right now, we are not equals (other classes are prefered more in dungeons than others)
eg. warrior was op already in pve, now with the banner buff, it’s almost a must, as guardians :/
balance us in pve and i will be happy

DanH.5879:

please nerf the thief in wvw/spvp as much as you wish,
but please balance the pve one, right now, we are not equals (other classes are prefered more in dungeons than others)
eg. warrior was op already in pve, now with the banner buff, it’s almost a must, as guardians :/
balance us in pve and i will be happy

Luckily you don’t speak for all of us.

Fenrir.4237:

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

What you quoted originally was talking about 100nades, which you responded to without changing the subject to Grenade Barrage, therefore your subject remained 100nades.
The entire conversation was about 100nades, not Grenade Barrage, as GB is not a problem on its own. Then you come in, start talking about GB without actually changing the subject, and you look like an idiot because it looks like you think 100nades is easy to land and has a huge effective radius.

Not my fault you lack the communication skills needed for a coherent conversation.

Is true, I made a mistake there. Still don’t know why you try to make yourself out to be the jerk at every topic. seriously, please stop that… it’s very annoying. Also, one of the topics you quoted was me linking grenade barrage and me commenting on the skill itself.

Eh don’t mind him dude. He’s just going to pick at every little wrong thing you might of said and not even discuss the main point your post is trying to make. Did that with me too in the other thread. Your point still holds.

What “point”? He came into the conversation (comparing 100nades to BS burst), said something completely irrelevant to the conversation while pretending it was relevant, derailing the conversation, and then got into a long argument because he didn’t communicate the point well enough to know what he was talking about.

So, I will now put it back on track.
@Robert Hrouda: Why was 100nades held to a different standard than other bursts? What was so bad about it compared to other instagib bursts that you felt it should be removed while the others remain?

DanH.5879:

please nerf the thief in wvw/spvp as much as you wish,
but please balance the pve one, right now, we are not equals (other classes are prefered more in dungeons than others)
eg. warrior was op already in pve, now with the banner buff, it’s almost a must, as guardians :/
balance us in pve and i will be happy

PvE will never be remotely good. NEVER. Maybe 100 years from now, but Player versus AI can be exploited so hard, and no matter how smart you make the AI, it’s still dumb as hell imo. This is why PvE can only go so far but PvP can go endlessly. And if you think PvE is, then you’re just delusional. Not at this moment of time at least and not soon either, that’s for kitten sure.

Anet made a huge mistake in not realizing this but eh that’s for an other topic I don’t really want to go to in-depth about anyways.

It’s just my take on it, and yea, I’m glad as well you don’t speak for all of us. Real glad.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Fenrir.4237:

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

What you quoted originally was talking about 100nades, which you responded to without changing the subject to Grenade Barrage, therefore your subject remained 100nades.
The entire conversation was about 100nades, not Grenade Barrage, as GB is not a problem on its own. Then you come in, start talking about GB without actually changing the subject, and you look like an idiot because it looks like you think 100nades is easy to land and has a huge effective radius.

Not my fault you lack the communication skills needed for a coherent conversation.

Is true, I made a mistake there. Still don’t know why you try to make yourself out to be the jerk at every topic. seriously, please stop that… it’s very annoying. Also, one of the topics you quoted was me linking grenade barrage and me commenting on the skill itself.

Eh don’t mind him dude. He’s just going to pick at every little wrong thing you might of said and not even discuss the main point your post is trying to make. Did that with me too in the other thread. Your point still holds.

What “point”? He came into the conversation (comparing 100nades to BS burst), said something completely irrelevant to the conversation while pretending it was relevant, derailing the conversation, and then got into a long argument because he didn’t communicate the point well enough to know what he was talking about.

lol

Fenrir.4237:

DanH.5879:

please nerf the thief in wvw/spvp as much as you wish,
but please balance the pve one, right now, we are not equals (other classes are prefered more in dungeons than others)
eg. warrior was op already in pve, now with the banner buff, it’s almost a must, as guardians :/
balance us in pve and i will be happy

PvE will never be remotely good. NEVER. Maybe 100 years from now, but Player versus AI can be exploited so hard, and no matter how smart you make the AI, it’s still dumb as hell imo. This is why PvE can only go so far but PvP can go endlessly. And if you think PvE is, then you’re just delusional. Not at this moment of time at least and not soon either, that’s for kitten sure.

Anet made a huge mistake in not realizing this but eh that’s for an other topic I don’t really want to go to in-depth about anyways.

It’s just my take on it, and yea, I’m glad as well you don’t speak for all of us. Real glad.

Honestly I think Anet went the pve route because they realized they went so far off course from gw1 that they have no hope of actually having balanced pvp in this game, ever.

no dual classing to help classes that are weaker, no healers for group support to make up for a weaker class, and they added this ridiculous ninja stealth class.

I know this is the thief forum and nobody here would agree, but I still think they messed up bad putting thieves in the game at all. High mobility, high damage, and can turn invisible to avoid retaliation. Its a joke. “Hey guyz, I can run around right next to the zerg and pick off stragglers cuz i have leet skills called stealth buttons. I know every other class would get steamrollereds but its balanced because im awesomes and you arnt!”

no matter how much I want to like this game, I just can’t.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

And unlike backstab burst, 100nades required a setup of Net Shot or Magnet or else it would be impossible to land. Precasting CnD->Steal->Backstab can be done almost instantly. Both are instagib burst builds with very little opportunity for the defender to do anything about it, but 1 got removed while the other remains.

Backstab is VERY easy to avoid if you can see the thief, dodge when he gets in mug range and his whole combo is screwed. Or even if you get stunned, you still have time to stun break out of it and dodge the backstab. Once you do that, the thief is pretty much dead because that’s all they can do with that build, unless you’re not packing any CC’s.

globe.7238:

Are you sure you play a thief? Backstab can be used on a target in ANY position, front/back/side from stealth, though you get double damage while hitting from behind. You can also trait side strike to get an extra 7%.

And for the record, for those who say you cant take down someone instantly with steal/cnd/backstab heres a screen shot. Granted the person was a lvl 62 mesmer(he added me to party) and upleveled in wvw, this guy was done in one shot. I’m full glass cannon and really have no issue hitting 7k+ on light armors level 80s in wvw, and if I want to be a big scrub like 90% of the thiefs out there i’ll just spam HS and have my target dead in the matter of a few seconds.

lol yeah lets pretend anyone gives a kitten about 5k crit backstabs to the front from a GC thief that just blew half his cooldowns.

And thanks for proving a point. Bads with no toughness should sod off and get gear before whining about anything. 6k is not high.

Kaizer.7135:

globe.7238:

Volrath.1473:

globe.7238:

Volrath.1473:

globe.7238:

Snip

Why post screenshots like that one?
If you play the same game I play you, should know that these numbers (not just the one you highlighted but all of them) can only be pulled off on a very low lvl player <30 in WvWvW, on a lvl 80 fully geared, even if he is a glass cannon spec in berserker gear, you will never be able to do such dmg.

FYI side strike gives 7% crit chance not dmg and if you are able to down ANYONE by spamming HS i would LOVE to duel you and prove you wrong.

I’m not allowed to post screen captures? When I get time i’ll jump on and try to grab some for you against some lvl 80s, of course backstab wont nearly be 17k, and steal/cnd will probably be around 5-6k with a following backstab of 6k+. If you even read my post I said granted this person was “upleveled”.

Lol @ this duel crap, are you simple or can you just not read? I was mocking how 90% of the thiefs out there do nothing but spam HS, clearly something you cannot comprehend. Offended much?

Oh and yeah you’re right about side strike, sorry I wasnt able to check before I posted that, though a thief isnt my main so my mistake.

actually I can read unlike you apparently… I asked why post that kind of screen shot i NEVER said you weren’t allowed or should not be posting them.

Here is what you said about HS spamming

“and if I want to be a big scrub like 90% of the thiefs out there i’ll just spam HS and have my target dead in the matter of a few seconds.”

If you chose to play like you just said you did come duel me to prove you wrong, no offence taken nor intended.

Oh and btw its THIEVES not thiefs…

Once again, are you simple? You know..simple minded? Oh and all this coming from a p/d thief such as your self its pure comical. You brought my screen capture into question, you then went offensive saying “if you play the same game I do”, did I anywhere state that my screen shot was the norm. I even stated the player was upleveled, so wheres your argument? Why’d you even bring it up? What is the point you’re trying to make? So..whats wrong with my screen capture? Why do you feel the need to question why I posted it? Oh wait..I forgot you’re in mensa, you clearly have all the answers.

I posted it for a simple reason, the fact that irregardless of being upleveled, at level, a thief can still do massive single target burst, most of the time equaling some builds practically close to being one shot. Similar to the “100 nades” build that the engis had. So heres a few more screen grabs of at level 80 characters, first one is what I believe a gc necro, he was down instantly after this. The 2nd of a tanky ranger, that went down shortly after the steal/cnd/backstab, oh and I didnt spam HS on either of them – Funny thing is they’re relatively close to what I said they would be on a 80 character in my other post, then again I dont know what i’m talking about, you’re clearly the thief god.

Keep bringing up this “dueling” thing, its funny watching you try to stroke your kitten on the forums

Backstab thieves will always insta-kill bad players, or those who do not know how to counter thieves. What you’re showing is pretty much the first posts that were in this forum of whiners.

Oh without a doubt, I totally agree with you. The reference I was trying to make was that its similar to the 100 nades build with the amount of burst is such a small time frame if you’re successful

Let me get this straight, Dev. Robert said that he can handle a GC thief gaining the knowledge and experience about the thief — yet — Rangers needs a buff?

Doesn’t this prove that even if a thief build GC that a Ranger can beat them reagrdless? Wouldn’t suppose to be a clear indication that Thieves are nerfed to uselessness that GC cannot beat a mere Ranger?

I sense a lot of “thief hate” there coming from the balance team.

If the balance team don’t want to listen to us, at least listen to Dev. Robert before making uncessary Thief nerfs.

Thief in general is not be OP but Mug is, at least for a 10-point-trait.
Kit refinement was OP for a 10-point-trait and got nerfed (as in: “Pretty much erased from the game”)

So we have two OP 10-point-traits, one has been nerfed, the other one (even though it has been announced by the devs to be OP and to get a nerf) remains in the game, why?

Fixed that for you, by the way

Everyone expects the damage to come ASAP, but if you delay it even a couple seconds players will blow their skills by over-reacting predicting to it.

By the time you can react to that combo you already have eaten Mug and CnD with a Backstab on the way.

Rengaru.4730:

Thief in general is not be OP but Mug is, at least for a 10-point-trait.
Kit refinement was OP for a 10-point-trait and got nerfed (as in: “Pretty much erased from the game”)

So we have two OP 10-point-traits, one has been nerfed, the other one (even though it has been announced by the devs to be OP and to get a nerf) remains in the game, why?

Fixed that for you, by the way

Everyone expects the damage to come ASAP, but if you delay it even a couple seconds players will blow their skills by over-reacting predicting to it.

By the time you can react to that combo you already have eaten Mug and CnD with a Backstab on the way.

Mug IS being nerfed- go watch SotG. It’s “too powerful”, right from the mouth of the dev team.

And please don’t over-exaggerate. C+D is extremely well choreographed. After just a couple of tries, you can spot the animation from a mile away and dodge the attacks that would come with it. I’m not a very good player, and yet I can do it – why can’t you?

As a thief that did GC backstab for a aobut a week, got bored/frustrated, and went for more sustainable options (p/d attrition and D/D deathblossom attrition) I can say two things:

• GC backstab is a completely polar build. You either make the kill, get killed, or get a CD forced time out. It’s very high risk and high reward and its play and counterplay is measured in seconds. Like all burst/glass builds in any form of PvP its going to pubstomp. It’s going to wreck new players. The same is true in MOBA games, the same is true if FPS games, it’s a general PvP design paradigm. Burst weapons and builds, regardless of the drawbacks, will destroy new and inexperienced players.

• Pubstomping builds are vital to competitive play. You know what makes people get better at competitive games? Learning the game. You know the fastest way to entice players to learn? Pubstomp them, then let someone explain the mitigating factor. With two minutes of study, the new player goes from “I DIE EVERY TIME” to “LOL I KILL THAT GUY SO MUCH NOW” That’s an instant and gratifying learning experience that improves the overall skill level of both parties. The pubstomper has to learn to play more skillfully to counter and bait the simple counterplay, and the stomp-ee has learned a valuable lesson about studying the meta. This is why pubstomp builds/heroes/weapons aren’t usually seen much in high level play in competitive games. It’s not that they’re not effective. They’re just as effective as they were when you were stomping newbies. It’s that, often, they’re leaps and bounds higher on the skill floor to use effectively against a seasoned opponent.

• GC backstab is balanced, but the thief has little else that can achieve similar results in a similar timeframe. I like my attrition builds. I like reading my opponents, calculating my own and my opponent’s available resources on the fly, and forcing a fight to a long and bitter end. However, this mode of play is simply less efficient than the long-haul strategies avaliable to other classes. A bunker guardian or ele has a similar experience in PvP, but is worlds more effective in terms of both sustain and damage than a “sustain” thief. Not slightly moreso, which is expected due to class flavor, but wildly better at both staying alive for longer and killing faster. I’m okay with being squishier in a sustain build if it also means a better damage output than classes with better sustain potential. I’m okay with less damage in sustain if it means better survivability. The problem with thief is that its non-burst options are woefully inadequate when compared to non-burst options found on virtually every other class which is compounded upon by the fact that burst thieves are, by design, very good at delivering reliable single target burst damage

• It isn’t a matter of nerfing or un-nerfing thieves It’s a matter of creating real and viable build diversity in the competitive environment for us, and while we’re at it for every other class too.

Auesis.7301:

Mug IS being nerfed- go watch SotG. It’s “too powerful”, right from the mouth of the dev team.

What did I say?

(even though it has been announced by the devs to be OP and to get a nerf)

Yet my argument is still valid: “one has been nerfed, the other one […] remains in the game”

Auesis.7301:

And please don’t over-exaggerate. C+D is extremely well choreographed. After just a couple of tries, you can spot the animation from a mile away and dodge the attacks that would come with it. I’m not a very good player, and yet I can do it – why can’t you?

And please don’t over-defend.

I never said I can’t dodge the combo, I was nit-picking about the way Robert phrased that. You literally cannot react to avoid an instant cast ability, you watch the Thief, see him use CnD and thus predict his combo and react accordingly.

If you see him use CnD via the very obvious animation, your not predicting, your reacting

Shemsu.8721:

If you see him use CnD via the very obvious animation, your not predicting, your reacting

…because you are predicting a combo.
Why would you dodge a random, ranged CnD if you don’t expect the thief to close the gap with a shadowstep.

I swear, the thief subforum is becoming more like hotjoin every day, with random thieves poping up spaming the same arguments over and over like a Heartseeker.

Rengaru.4730:

Shemsu.8721:

If you see him use CnD via the very obvious animation, your not predicting, your reacting

…because you are predicting a combo.
Why would you dodge a random, ranged CnD if you don’t expect the thief to close the gap with a shadowstep.

I swear, the thief subforum is becoming more like hotjoin every day, with random thieves poping up spaming the same arguments over and over like a Heartseeker.

I guess it comes down to them reacting to a predicted combo compared to your predicting a combo in reaction to the animation.

That said its unlikely a thief is going to do a ranged cnd and not shadowstep just to feint you out of half an endurance bar as that costs them half their weapon cooldowns. So reacting to the CnD knowing full well what is 99% likely to come is the better option than not doing so.

Since CnD is not a ranged attack, your not predicting they will gap close, you know they will. So what your saying is you see thieves on a regular basis activate CnD at 900 range and then DONT step to you via steal/inf sig? really? You dont have to be psychic to know what comes next when a thief starts cnd with BV on their buff bar. its not prediction its common sense. Get some.

Seriously, who gives a kitten just dodge the kitten thing and be done with it.

Dasorine.1964:

I guess it comes down to them reacting to a predicted combo compared to your predicting a combo in reaction to the animation.

Fair enough.

Dasorine.1964:

So reacting to the CnD knowing full well what is 99% likely to come is the better option than not doing so.

Of course it is. I mean, this whole argument is about me being nit-picky, not about an actual gameplay situation, right?

Shemsu.8721:

So what your saying is you see thieves on a regular basis activate CnD at 900 range and then DONT step to you via steal/inf sig?

Nope. That is what you are reading in my comment.

Shemsu.8721:

You dont have to be psychic to know what comes next

…you just have to… predict

This is FINALLY one of the more intelligent and KEY hints to defeating ANY tough build in the game. PLAY THE BUILD YOU HATE! That is right! Then you learn to defend how they play because you know what is coming and when it is coming at you!
He also said something quite ridiculous. He did not own people in SPVP like god mode especially with a class he has never played. Thief is one of the 2 toughest classes to play, or play well. you cant spam 2 and kill anyone…if u mean spam 2 when somebody is at 35% or so ..then yes 2-3 will do the job even with all that i get my attack at about 3850 and i still can kill anyone with 2 spam strait out.
Ok. To add some more insight on the difference between SPVP and WVW. there is a major dmg deduction or a damage cap in SPVP. Backstabs on glass cannon in wvw can go up to 10k ish (yes more if you use Assassins Sig and Food/buffs) and about 5kish in spvp so we have about a 50% dmg deduction. This debuff in damage or in “capabilities” of classes is NOT linear across the board. allow me to explain. When u deduce dmg from all classes and NOT their HP / Defense the class that relies on it (not the highest dmg class) the most its hurt MORE than other classes. Ok so its like taking half the defense away from a guardian and the same half away from a thief….the guardian will be hurt more bc thats what keeps him alive agianst a thief….a thief loses half its defense…its still very very squishy…but it can also still kill very fast. in this case the guardian would lose out the most. if you dont believe me go play the best dueling thiekittennow in wvw…then go in spvp…u will see an amaaazing difference. Why you ask? i mean theres the same dmg deduction across the board right? hrmmm….
Thieves are not broken my friends. i want to go back to 3 secs on revealed…that extra second killed about 1/3rd of p/d bleed builds’ defense adn about 50% of its attack output. i can explain this if you dont believe me but it compounds bc of the time avialable to target. if u want the truth thieves usually go invis for 3 secs sometimes 4……..they are only invis for half of that if u attack just before they go in because the attack follows them as long as you click it before they invis.
the dev also brought up the perfect point. bring CC and AOE and u will have no problems against most thieves. if u dont have anti stun and CC you dont belong in wvw or shouldnt have a right to complain. also learn the classes you hate it will help tremendously.
if u wanna know 2 REALLY broken classes : ELES/MESMERs………. no way right? yeah right…obviously devs favs are eles/mesmers as they ahve recivied the least debuffs other than RTL 5 sec longer nerf… ok mesmers…..zerk phantasm build does as much dmg as any thing burst build …all they do is make phantasms and boost them up and run in a circle and dodge….they dont have to really do anything and the phantasms make soooo much dmg…and they follow you even after you come out of invis…they wont target summons…minions or pets….just you. too much AI and too much dmg. i jsut dont like the fact they have so much dmg and dont even have to target the enemy really other than to engage their phantasms. then not too mention the base effects of confusion should have been more on the gw1 setup. SECONDLY elementalists….plz name me one other class that can be first in several different categories……they are first in mobility….condition removal …..healing….dmg reduction …..and also first in spammability of skills as they can literally cast spells FOREVER wikthout stopping….so not only are they first in that they are the only class that can do that. they have decent dmg too! not low like guardians…(which are low bc of their defense/heals…funny….ele has the same but not low dmg) also an easy fix….. you only have to add a few seconds of extra cooldown time between each element OR….just make realistic casting times on most of their skills…they are all pretty much instant or 1/4……spam spam spam spam spam they prolly average 2.25 skills per second…which is insane….thieves use skill 3 and 5 and they ahve to wait for more intiative before they can use another skill…oh what switch to a diff weapon set to have more? you CANT! lol sthey all still use initiative. so having slow skills and low defense and NO blocks no burning…..low healing…..dont u think thieves deserve somethign!? i mean cmon stop hating classes you guys never play. you make kill alot as at hief yes….but i die more on my thief than any other class….if im actually engagign in fights regardless of size!